Re: Riv Suggestion Box: San Marcos

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Historically, the only bikes which have/had Rivendell headbadges were the custom frames or the "Generation 1" Rivendells (Longlow, Road, AllRounder, etc... frames).  With the introduction of the Atlantis, they all had model-specific headbadges - e.g. Atlantis, Rambouillet, Romulus, Quickbeam.

The headbadge for the San Marcos is SOMA-specific, though I think they are using different ones for most of their other models - a stylized Rising Sun with the SOMA logo below. The one which appears on their site.

From the beginning, Grant was pretty clear about his role in its design, but also about the fact it was a SOMA Fab project.  The chainstay used to state explicity it was a GP design. 

Arguably, better than a headbadge, you could get the larger size and end up with the now-wholly-Riv-identifed double top tube - as Soma states:

"The 59 and 63cm have that Rivendell double top tube to restore the triangulation lost with the tall top tube."

I hadn't actually seen any commentary on the web, but then again, haven't really sought it.

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 12:17:25 PM UTC-7, Doug Williams wrote:

I’m looking at getting a San Marcos from Rivendell soon. Of course, I would REALLY prefer a Roadeo, if only I could find another $1,300. But I digress.

As a big Rivendell fan, I have to say that the one annoying thing about the San Marcos is the lack of anything (other than the very small print on the chainstay) that mentions that it is a Rivendell. Well, we can’t do anything about the decals (they have clear-coat over them) but what about the headbadge? Couldn’t Riv put a Rivendell headbadge on the San Marcos for those frames purchased from Riv HQ and fully assembled by Rivendell elves with all parts purchased from Rivendell?

Sounds petty, I know. But reading the web, I am not the only one with this petty hang-up. A Rivendell headbadge could be a big incentive for people to buy the San Marcos from Rivendell instead of Amazon (or wherever).

I hear that a blow dryer will soften up the glue and allow the San Marcos headbadge to be easily removed and replaced with a Rivendell one.  J  Of course, I don’t know what the Riv contract with Soma might say about this.

Doug

[Minh]

What's the motiviation in this case?  Is this a case of buying a Camaro but wanting a Firebird?  I've seen some people complain that the model specific bikes don't have enough Rivendell badging either.  The Roadeo doesn't have an RBW badge either!


I think R`BW have been pretty consistent that only the customs get full RBW badging. 

[Joe Bernard]

The San Marcos SOMA badge is different from other SOMA frames. I think it's way cool.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I understand that GP designed the San Marcos for Soma and allowed his personal name to be associated with that model for a fee. In simplest terms, he was hired as a contractor to provide a design. Usually design contracts don't permit the contractor to cash his check, then slap a different label on the finished product, and market it under a different brand.

[jpp]

I feel like they originally mentioned possibly rebadging them AMOS to differentiate those that were bought through them.   

[Michael]

Just get a Sam. There is only a 325$ difference between them for the frames. If you are gonna get a Riv-build, they are still only about 325 different total for the complete bikes. Problem solved. You can get a Riv for the same price basically.

The Sam has a much prettier curve to the fork, and better paint job too. More eyelets, etc. Definitely worht waiting to save up 325 more bucks.

[Bryan]

I would say just get the bike and put a bunch of miles on it. You'll forget all about the headbadge. Besides, I agree that the SOMA headbadge looks great. 

Bryan 

[bobish]

It's clearly a soma bike, designed by riv/grant—so soma decides the branding, etc.

"This is a bike we were commissioned to design for Soma Fabrications of San Francisco, for distribution to its many dealers. We’re friends with the SOMA people, and they wanted a Rivendell-designed bike. As part of the agreement, we were (not surprisingly) allowed to sell them, too."

This deal benefits riv, soma, and the buyer. Soma has a bike they can market as "designed by riv/grant," yet control production and sell though their dealer network. Riv/grant get to expand their influence/message/market by making a riv-like bike available to folks who might not otherwise know about riv or now consider buying one because it's cheaper. Could lead to new customers in parts, upgrades to riv bikes, etc. The buyer can get a "less pretty" (somewhat subjective, I suppose), riv-approved, riv clone at a cheaper price. And unlike a riv, one find discounted deals on new frames/bikes on the web. Win, win, win.

As for the head badge, I doubt anyone would care if you swap it to riv but riv wouldn't do it as it's not part of the original agreement.

Perry

[RJM]

I was in the same boat but popped for the Roadeo. I sold a bunch of other stuff I had laying around taking up space on ebay and the like so I could get the frame. Now I am doing the same thing to get parts to build up the Roadeo. I was looking at the San Marcos too and almost decided to buy that, it looks like a great frameset and I am sure it would make a very good bike.  I had a long internal conversation with myself and decided that the Roadeo was the bike I really wanted and in the end I don't think I would be totally happy going that route. I have lusted after a roadeo in orange for years now and just couldn't convince myself that saving that amount and getting something different was going to make me happy.  The end result is that I have the frame I really want and less clutter in the house.

 

People who have the San Marcos really seem to like it though. I don't think the fact that the bike not saying "rivendell" on it is a problem though. Once you are riding it, you aren't looking at the headbadge anyway and the ride is going to give you a smile either way.  There are some differences between it and the Roadeo though, especially in my size. It was a choice between 650b wheels on the SM vs 700 for the Roadeo, top tube sloping differences, fork curve/look, contrasting headtube ect.

 

On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 10:44:32 PM UTC-5, Doug Williams wrote:

I considered a Sam. I agree that it is much more handsome than the Marcos. But it is a little heavier than what I'm looking for. I already have (non-Riv) bike that fits the cargo and loaded touring bill. I'm looking for something with more zip, but short of a racing bike.

[Garth]

Stating the obvious here , it's a Soma Brand frame, not a Rivendell !

[Jeremy Till]

As I understand it, this isn't the first time that GP has designed a bike for another maker concurrently with Riv and then marketed them through Riv as well, the other most obvious examples being the Herons, dating from around the turn of the century.  My wife recently bought one of these frames used, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't make any mention of being designed by GP anywhere on it.  Furthermore, it has completely different lugs and geo (no gentle TT slope, less pronounced headtube extension).  But still, sitting next to my Quickbeam, it's pretty easy to see the family resemblance! 

The San Marcos even uses some/all of the Riv lugs, doesn't it?

Another thing is, if you get a bike from Riv, you're not just getting the frame design, you're getting a bike sized by them and built up using their preferred parts, which ends up being pretty distinctive.  To people in the know, even if it doesn't say Rivendell anywhere on it, it's pretty easy to see where it came from.  Check out the Soma Fab blog and flickr stream, you'll see plenty of San Marcos' built up by other shops, and with a lot of them it's pretty clear they didn't come from Riv.  Sized much smaller (bars well below seat in current roadie fashion), much different component spec with brifters, short reach handlebars, etc. 

Plus I really like the existing San Marcos headbadge. Having seen it it person, it looks amazing!

[EGNolan]

Something that I don't think has been mentioned is liability. If Rivendell isn't sourcing these, isn't making much money per unit and a lot of these are being sold ( I assume more are sold than a normal Riv because of the widespread reach of Merry Sales compared to Riv) then it makes more sense for Rivendell to allow Soma to be on the downtube and take ownership of all liability. When you put your name on something, you accept liability should something happen, it doesn't always make sense to do that.  Zoom in on the photo here, this years ago: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rivendell-Reader-Issue-Number-10-/170949581543?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27cd639ae7

 

Best,

Eric

Indpls

[qwerty]

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[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 2:41:04 PM UTC-7, Tonester wrote:

I feel you on this, I drove a Porsche 914 for years and got a lot of crap from the Porsche crowds. (914 was sold everywhere else as a VW).  

 

Haha, now if you had a 914-6, you could have avoided alot of grief.... :)  Btw, a buddy had a 914 2.0 and it was a hoot to drive. Despite being underpowered, it handled really well and could keep up with most cars of its time.

 

My '82 Stumpjumper has a "Designed by Tim Neenon" on the chainstay which I think is uber-cool.

 

Agree, I recently picked up a 90s litespeed classic for cheap - $425 including serotta ti headsup adapter!  What's great is that all the decals have been removed saved a small one on the left/non-drive chainstay which is the signature of W. David Lynskey! The signature just makes the bike look cool!  It also doesn't hurt that the frame has the "classic european geometry" so the bike handles really well! Good Luck!

That said, with the bike built up those who care about these things would know that facts already, and those that don't care - well, don't care.  Pearls before swine, I say.

 

Proud of my Atlantis with the little "by rivendell" decals.

Tony

On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 2:29:41 PM UTC-7, Minh wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

This thread is making me want Mark's BOM really bad. It duplicates my Bleriot almost down to the color, and I don't have the money! Grrr...

[Garth]

It's amazing to me how a "label", influences how I feel about a given product.  I personally prefer no labels on a bicycle if given a choice. When I had my Bombadil repainted, I had it done without labels.  I know the origin of the frame, the frame knows the origin of the frame, and Rivendell knows the origin of the frame.

 I remember being enamored with stickers as a child. Getting some STP stickers from the Service Station (back when gas stations were owned and run by the same one or two people and actually offered "real car service") was a grand thing !  Getting the "big brand" named stickers and products was THE thing, to be associated them.  It's all psychological of course, and it's alright. I call it today "permission slips" .... anything that allows you to feel better about yourself within the realms of your belief system, is a permission slip.

[Bruce Herbitter]

I hear ya.  Since no bike frames are actually fabricated at Walnut Creek, you could think of your bike as a Panasonic, or a Toyo, or a Waterford, or a Maxway, or a Curt, or a Joe or a Mark, etc. They all share a designer and basic principles though, the same ones shared by the San Marcos. So "label" it in your mind as you like, but enjoy the ride regardless.

Speaking of actual labels, when I repainted a Road two years ago, it was important to me to find the correct decal set. Just because I really liked how they looked on the bike's down tube . I also got with Reynolds for new tubing decals. They did not have the same ones originally used (French) but they sent me scans of every old decal they still had available and I found something suitable. They were nice people to deal with btw. 

On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 6:17 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's amazing to me how a "label", influences how I feel about a given product.  I personally prefer no labels on a bicycle if given a choice. When I had my Bombadil repainted, I had it done without labels.  I know the origin of the frame, the frame knows the origin of the frame, and Rivendell knows the origin of the frame.

 I remember being enamored with stickers as a child. Getting some STP stickers from the Service Station (back when gas stations were owned and run by the same one or two people and actually offered "real car service") was a grand thing !  Getting the "big brand" named stickers and products was THE thing, to be associated them.  It's all psychological of course, and it's alright. I call it today "permission slips" .... anything that allows you to feel better about yourself within the realms of your belief system, is a permission slip.

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2013-05-07 at 06:49 -0500, Bruce Herbitter wrote:
>
> Speaking of actual labels, when I repainted a Road two years ago, it
> was important to me to find the correct decal set. Just because I
> really liked how they looked on the bike's down tube . I also got with
> Reynolds for new tubing decals. They did not have the same ones
> originally used (French) but they sent me scans of every old decal
> they still had available and I found something suitable. They were
> nice people to deal with btw.

A Rivendell Road was built with French diameter tubing? I didn't think
Waterford was using French diameter 531 at that time.

[Bruce Herbitter]

The labels were written in French. I don't know what tubing specs were used.  753 frame and stays and 531 fork blades.

[hsmitham]

Doug,

My Brother purchased a SOMA San Marcos off the web for $775.00 and built it up with 11 speed Campy Athena, and Velo-Orange wheels. He did have to purchase the the Tektro 559's for increased reach. He has mounted racks, and trunk bags and has since mounted Longboard fenders. He loves the bike and loves the way it handles. When he spoke to Riv they explained to him that the San Marcos is the closest frame set they sell that emulates the ride quality of the Roadeo.

Incidentally, he just recently purchased a Surly pacer and built it up with 10 speed Campy! He apparently loves Campy :-) So his rational was he wanted a bike unloaded. I on the other hand purchased a A.A.H. built up by Riv with their mix of parts. My second bike will be a Trek 660 built with Campy 10 speed ( It runs in the family) meant to ride with a minimal load and on the road and light dirt roads. 

I think the most important criteria is what are you comfortable spending and what will give you long term happiness? My Hilsen has small lettering on the seat tube with "Rivendell"  the down tube in large letters has "A. Homer. Hilsen" though it doesn't scream "Rivendell" I love it. If it looks like a Riv, rides like a Riv then it's a Riv. Lastly, I was riding up a road on my way back home in my neighborhood and a fellow yells "hey is that a Rivendell?" I turned back with a smile and confirmed his suspicion.

Like Jim Thill I like the Soma San Marcos headbadge it's awesome, and I also dig the Riv custom headbadge both hansome.

Good luck on your decision either frame set will bring you a lot of enjoyment.

Hugh

Sunland, CA

On Monday, May 6, 2013 12:48:18 PM UTC-7, Doug Williams wrote:

Well, to close out this topic, I should say that Grant wrote me a kind email saying that the contract with Soma doesn’t allow Riv to mess with the San Marcos. That’s what I expected, really. The best advice from this list was to “Just Ride” the San Marcos and my feelings about the lack of “Rivendellness” of the bike would melt away with the miles. I think that is what I will do.

Looking logically at the difference between the San Marcos and the Roadeo, it is hard to justify paying $1,300 more for the Roadeo just because it is a better looking bike and a “true Rivendell”. Also, I tell myself that I won’t put a rack on the bike…but then I just might. A rack would allow me to ride the San Marcos instead of my pig Novara Safari for weekend trip. I could always remove the rack before my next “fast” ride.

Still…which headbadge do you prefer? The headbadge with the beautiful winding open road trailing into the sunset or the headbadge with the Sutro Tower television and radio transmission antennae? Not a tough call for me. For me at least, the Roadeo is the more beautiful bike and the San Marcos is the more practical bike.

I guess I’ll keep a magnifying glass to read the fine print on the chainstay and a laminated copy of my invoice in my saddlebag so I can prove that my San Marcos is a “True Rivendell”.  J

But then I think I need to test ride the Roadeo and the AHH before I place my order just to make sure.

Doug

[PATRICK MOORE]

When you say "spry", do you mean acceleration or turning? curious because my new-to-me Ram feels outstanding in handling but somewhat sluggish compared to my customs, even the 559X1.35 Kojak-shod one I rode today. Not that, in this instance, it's a matter for anguish, since the Ram fills a wonderful niche for me (fun sport tourer that handles heavy grocery loads), but I'm curious.

Did your (well, those your rode) Ram and Rod have the same tires?

On Thu, May 9, 2013 at 2:00 PM, LBleriot <gary....@att.net> wrote:

This is an interesting quote.  I own a Roadeo and owned a Ram.  I think that the San Marcos rides very similarly to the Ram.  Comfy and sure footed like the Ram, but not a "spry" as the Roadeo.

--

http://resumespecialties.com/index.html

patric...@resumespecialties.com

Albuquerque, NM

[John Blish]

The Soma badge is merely a cloaking device. 

Those with the means and ability can see through it and know it is a Riv design. 

Those who lack the means or ability to see that don't know the difference between a Riv and a Soma design anyway.  

You will be able to tell in which category to place someone who starts up a conversation based on how they identify it without them even knowing that you are doing so. 

-jb

On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Doug Williams <sal...@minbaritm.com> wrote:

I’m looking at getting a San Marcos from Rivendell soon. Of course, I would REALLY prefer a Roadeo, if only I could find another $1,300. But I digress.

As a big Rivendell fan, I have to say that the one annoying thing about the San Marcos is the lack of anything (other than the very small print on the chainstay) that mentions that it is a Rivendell. Well, we can’t do anything about the decals (they have clear-coat over them) but what about the headbadge? Couldn’t Riv put a Rivendell headbadge on the San Marcos for those frames purchased from Riv HQ and fully assembled by Rivendell elves with all parts purchased from Rivendell?

Sounds petty, I know. But reading the web, I am not the only one with this petty hang-up. A Rivendell headbadge could be a big incentive for people to buy the San Marcos from Rivendell instead of Amazon (or wherever).

I hear that a blow dryer will soften up the glue and allow the San Marcos headbadge to be easily removed and replaced with a Rivendell one.  J  Of course, I don’t know what the Riv contract with Soma might say about this.

Doug

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[jimD]

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