All of a Sudden - Bike Fit Woes

[Jay]

I'll probably get into too much detail, but maybe some of the minutia will prove helpful.

Two bikes: Roadini with drop bars, Brooks C17.  Haven't adjusted anything for 6-12 months.  Salsa Fargo with swept-back bars (VO Granola) that I installed around 3-4 months ago, also a Brooks C17.  Had drops previously, were never comfortable on that bike.

Pre-existing issues: right glute/hip and pelvis tilt to right; I have a spacer under my SPD cleat.  Had two bike fits a year ago to get this dialled in.  It alleviated some problems and got comfort from 5/10 to 8/10 on a good day.  These issues pre-date both current bikes.  Also some neck issues, which after a few years of chiro plus good stretching and strengthening, improved substantially (but still lingers).  Been doing off the bike work for a couple years, after not doing any for like 10-20 years.

Fargo - after getting the Granola bars and grips dialled in, upper body comfort has been excellent.  I ride this bike very differently than the Roadini though; on trails with lots of ups/downs and turns and I'm not stationary on the saddle.  However, recent trip to Montreal was mainly road riding, up to 2.5 hours, and I was still quite comfortable (8/10).  I can't say for sure that my issues wouldn't creep in if riding this bike 5x a week including 2-3 hours rides more consistently.

Roadini - felt pretty good last few months, then all of a sudden I'm sore at end of rides and up to 2 days after.  I did a longer ride than usual a few weeks ago, felt great.  The following week a long ride (less than longest), had all sorts of pain.  Went to chiro 2 days later and he said my hip was worst it has been.  Cause???  Past few rides on it I'm a 6/10 comfort (down from like 8/10).

Other info:

- brown saddle on the Roadini, on a hot day, can see my sit bone marks; they're skewed so left is more forward and on top of the saddle, right is further back and right side of saddle (pelvis twist); has been like this for a long time, before both bikes but this saddle alleviates the discomfort, where previous saddles actually highlighted this issue

- on the Fargo my right leg tracks well, with my foot fairly straight at the bottom of the stroke.  BB is 73.  I think this saddle is a bit more forward to the BB (less set back)

- on the Roadini, right toes pointing out a bit, saddle a bit farther back from BB and the saddle is pushed all the way forward on the rails (0 offset saddle).  I think this is a problem for me, maybe a different saddle with more rail towards back of the saddle can get me a bit more forward (for me, just a few mm makes a huge difference).

- saddle position/hip is one thing; upper body comfort another, though likely somewhat related

If this issue persists, I may try a different saddle on the Roadini (one I can push forward a bit along the rails while having my sit bones where they should be).  More extreme is trying some swept-back bars on the Roadini.  Would require an investment but thankfully I have downtime shifters, so just bars/grips/brake levers and a longer stem (all of which I  could borrow from the Fargo).  Thing is, I like drop bars too, they're great for longer road rides and there is the ego thing with showing up on swept back bars with 1-2 friends on their 15 pound carbon road bikes (I know, I know, silly thinking; but it's true for me; don't judge haha).

Thoughts?  Thanks :-)

[Garth]

Jay, In my experience saddle positioning relative to the BB has everything to do with upper body relative comfort. I don't know your exact sizes and years of the Roadini and Fargo, but as you already know, the Fargo has a steeper seat tube angle than the Roadini. Since you have the same saddle, the amount the saddle is back from the center-BB is easy enough to roughly measure using a string and a something heavy like a socket that you can tie the string around. Pinch the end of the string against the front edge tip of the saddle while the bike is vertical(set against a wall), steady the string 'till it stops rocking, and measure the distance from the sting to the center of the crank bolt. It won't be precise, but close enough that it'll give you a visual perspective not otherwise seen as to the saddle fore-aft relative to the center-BB. 

You mentioned your saddle is all the way forward on the Roadini(0 offset saddle ?), but no mention of the post itself. I've never used the term "zero offset saddle" so I'm not sure if you're just referring to it being positioned all the way forward on a standard setback seatpost or all the way forward on a zero setback seatpost. If you using a standard setback post the obvious thing to do is go to a zero setback post. Do that before entertaining the idea of another saddle, since the C-17 is working for you on the Fargo. From the C-17 photos though, I don't think you're going to find any saddle that allows much more forward postioning than it. It has relatively short rails that are placed more towards the back of the saddle, much like what WTB does and Avocet did back in the day. A zero setback post is the way to go forward.

I have a Ritchey Classic Zero and a Kally Uno SP-368 2-bolt Zero on my two bikes with 72.5d and 72d STA's. What this does is allow me to sit all the way back on the saddles, where I'm supposed to be, while at the same time being closer the BB.(Saddles I have and used : Ritchey Classic, Ergon SM Comp, WTB Volt, Cobb San Remo, Ritchey Skyline). This is notably more efficient for me to pedal. I threw out all the old "ways and means" of how I thought/read a bike was to be fitted as I found none of it really applied to what I was experiencing. Over the last few years I've moved my saddles forward at least 30-40mm on these bikes I have. That's because they both have relatively shallow STA's, whereas "back in the day" all my bikes had 73-74d STA's. With the saddle where it needs to be, any upper body issues I had are nowhere to be found. These are drop bar bikes too, with bars some 35-40mm below the saddle height. 

With saddle position dial in, the upper body can be in lots of positions comfortably, from high to low. 

In regards to saddle and rail and forward positioning, of the saddles I have, the Ergon SM and WTB Volt inherently are the most forward positioned, combining rails with the shape of the saddle itself.  The WTB being a little more so via the width of the rear extends a little more forward than the Ergon. Viewing the two saddles on top of each other. I'm not set on any one shape-type of saddle either,  now that I can get them far enough forward it's only a matter of find a given saddles sweet spot to settle in. 

[Jay]

Thanks for the post, Garth.

It is a zero setback seat post (not 0 offset).  It's a Thomson.

I've measured the setback before on both bikes.  I just did it again.  Funny thing is the Fargo is 5.4cm setback (tip of saddle to BB), whereas the Roadini is 4.9cm.  And, the Fargo has 175mm crank arms vs. 172.5 on the Roadini.  And, on the Fargo the saddle is closer to centre on the rails than the Roadini.  Yet, when I'm pedaling, I feel like on the Fargo it's more up-and-down (like straight under me), vs. pedaling a recumbent with your feet tracking more in front of you.  This is why I mention the idea of swept-back bars on the Roadini.  I believe when you're more upright, it changes a lot of angles including while pedaling and the muscles you recruit.  Just a theory though!

[Patrick Moore]

> With saddle position dial in, the upper body can be in lots of positions comfortably, from high to low. 

Garth is absolutely spot-on. IME, saddle position, both height, tilt, and especially fore/aft position wrt the bb is the key and starting point for good bike fit; everything else is calculated on a comfortable saddle position.

Peter White’s bike fit article is very useful. In fact some bike fitter uses it as a fundamental textL

[Patrick Moore]

I hit “send” before attaching the link: https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Jay]

Thanks for sharing that link, Patrick.  I read that years ago.

I get it about important of having the saddle position dialled in, however, I think the ideal position is partially dependent on the cockpit.  Drop bars with 10cm drop vs. swept back bars and an upright position...I'm guessing you may adjust the saddle tilt, maybe even the fore-aft.  If one cockpit set up isn't working, maybe another one will.  That's partially what I was implying in my post.

I made some tweaks, went for a spin around the block and it felt better, so we'll see how it goes on a long ride tomorrow.

[Ted Durant]

On Friday, August 8, 2025 at 7:28:10 AM UTC-5 Garth wrote:

In regards to saddle and rail and forward positioning, of the saddles I have, the Ergon SM and WTB Volt inherently are the most forward positioned, combining rails with the shape of the saddle itself. 

This is a part of bike fit that I find frustrating. Saddle makers typically give you only the width and length of the saddle. But those two dimensions tell you almost nothing about how the saddle will work for you, except for comparing two widths of the same brand/model of saddle. The most important dimensions, in terms of fore/aft fit, are 1) where is the point of butt contact with the saddle relative to the center of the clamp area of the rails, and 2) what is the length of the clamp area of the rails. I measured these on the small collection of saddles I have and they vary widely - we're talking centimeters, not millimeters. If you have a saddle with a 35mm clamp area and a seatpost with a 25mm clamp, you have +/- 5mm of latitude in fore/aft placement. You can change your fore/aft placement by 20mm, easily, swapping to a different saddle. Good luck finding that out without first laying out the cash for that saddle! 

And, on the post topic, I second the vote that saddle position relative to BB has made a fair amount of difference for me in finding long-distance comfort. 

Also, I have found that fascial counterstrain PT has made an enormous difference for my comfort on the bike, correcting a long-term hip tilt and associated issues, as well as helping recover from a couple of compression fractures in my vertebrae. After a couple of treatments I felt symmetrical on a bike for the first time ever. In my experience, pain issues have developed over time without me really recognizing them until they get to the point where I can't ignore them. So, I've gone for extended periods with bike fit issues that took a while to manifest into real discomfort. 

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Garth]

A wildcard in positioning over the BB is crank length. Also foot placement on the pedal. 

Letting the bar/stem combo dictate saddle fore/aft is backwards though. Been there and done it with many bike of yore when I was using frames that didn't have enough reach to begin with and was already maxed out in stem length. I would always end up too far back of center-bb and my pedaling efficiency/effectiveness suffered, especially uphill. I found myself standing most of the time, as that got me over the BB. Otherwise I felt like I pedaling from a lounge chair, just too far back and the wrong angle. Maybe some people have a muscle structure that works with that, but I do not. I even went so far as going to 150mm cranks and pedaling midfoot, which work for me most wonderfully, despite size 14 feet and a 36.5" pubic bone inseam. It's no wonder I struggled climbing so much using long cranks even with steeper STA's of racing frames. Maybe if I rode bikes with a 75d or more STA that would have worked. There's a Bicycling! article of yore about Alexi Grewal who had a Clark-Kent frame made for him with a 78d effective STA, as he too struggled with getting the proper hip angle to exert force to the pedal without injury. That's the kicker in pedaling a bike, we'll all been told about "longer cranks = more leverage". That's not really true though, having more bend to the knee is less efficient. Less bend has more leverage. Try standing on the bike on top of the BB and accelerate hard, now try it seated. See which one is more effective. Being more forward in the saddle, especially with shorter cranks, is literally more like standing over the BB. That's how track sprinters, time trialists and triathletes can produce so much power in the saddle , their bikes have steep STA and some use shorter cranks. I suspect Alexi Grewal would have done well with shorter cranks to begin with, but those would have been custom back then, if possible at all. Hip angle and knee bend, less is stronger in my experience. I'm no body builder though, I suppose those that can squat 500 pounds would argue otherwise, but that's not me and I assume, the average cyclist. 

Cranky length theory dies hard though, it's so often repeated despite being woefully misrepresented. I suspect more short cranks will be made as the veil is uncovered, so to speak.

I know all this seems out from left field but it's really a long winded way of saying don't use bars and stem as the starting point for your saddle fore-aft. It's the other way around. In moving myself so far forward I found out some interesting things. First, it lightens the load on the hands, even with drops below the saddle. The trunk and legs are supporting most of the weight, the more forward I am the less reach to the bars I need also.  No upper body strain at all. The "upright" riding equating to less strain is another myth that has me scratching my head how it so often repeated. Cycling, and Life, is full of many unchallenged assumptions . Do question the validity of statements, even this !

[Ted Durant]

On Aug 8, 2025, at 9:05 PM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

A wildcard in positioning over the BB is crank length. Also foot placement on the pedal. 

Yes! Having switched to shorter cranks and to flat pedals with no bindings, I’ve made some real changes here in the last few years.

[Kesler Roberts]

I can't add anything about fit, but just wanted to mention that I got a lot more help with ongoing body issues from physical therapy than from chiro.

[Patrick Moore]

It has been too long — ~30 years — since I (mistakenly) set up a road bike with saddle all the way forward and bar on a 140 mm stem 6” below saddle, but I don’t recall the position hurting my hands, or neck for that matter; of course I was in my late 30s or early 40s. OTOH, with a setup diametrically opposite, saddle relatively far back and bar raised and much closer in, I also find that that this makes my torso muscles hold up my body weight and keeps my hands light on the bar; this is what Peter White points out.

On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 8:05 PM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

… In moving myself so far forward I found out some interesting things. First, it lightens the load on the hands, even with drops below the saddle. The trunk and legs are supporting most of the weight, the more forward I am the less reach to the bars I need also.  No upper body strain at all. The “upright" riding equating to less strain is another myth that has me scratching my head how it so often repeated.

[Jay]

Ted - you hit the nail on the head based on my experience "In my experience, pain issues have developed over time without me really recognizing them until they get to the point where I can't ignore them. So, I've gone for extended periods with bike fit issues that took a while to manifest into real discomfort."

I would consider flat pedals if it wasn't for my asymmetry on the bike and the fact that after a couple of awful years on the bike, the spacers a PT/bike fitter added made a really positive different.  If I were to go to street shoes and flat pedals, not sure how that would compensate for this issue.  It may do just that, but I'm not ready to try that out, yet.

I hear you Garth with your last paragraph.  I rode that way for many years and was pretty comfortable.  But things got bad over time; I got older, less gym work (young kid).  Once things manifested into discomfort as Ted mentions above, I got a lot of relief by going with a taller stack and less reach.  Regarding chiro, I have an unnatural bend in my cervical spine and only when I found a good chiro, did that improve greatly (only minor discomfort now on long/hard rides, vs. a 1hr ride with pain).  I do consider finding a good PT to help with the pelvic/hip issue.  Maybe this fall.

I made a few minor tweaks before this morning's ride.  I gave the saddle a bit more tilt (nose up) and that completely alleviated pressure on my hands.  I also lowered the saddle a couple mm and while I look asymmetrical on the bike, I had only minor twinges a few times in a 2.5hr ride.  Feeling pretty good!

Thanks everyone!

[Brody]

Jay - I feel ya. All I could do is nod in agreement (and shared pain) while reading your post. I have a leg length discrepancy of 1 1/3 inches so I've struggled with pelvic/hip pain for years. I'm amazed you're still riding in the drops. Just last year I finally got rid of my custom Independent Fabrication road bike and bought my first Rivendell - a 2011 Double Top Tube giant with Billie Bars and haven't looked back. I find the upright position to be much friendlier on my irregular body. I'll put my comfort at 7/10 now. Still trying to dial in saddle tilt and height with micro adjustments to get that number even higher. Had to ditch the B17 for the B17 carved. My only advice after you dial in fit - stretch those hips regularly.

Patrick - I've never seen that Peter White link. Great read. Thanks for sharing.

Cheers,

Brody in LA

[Jay]

Brody - that's a big discrepancy!

I've been a little better lately.  I need to really stretch and role out my right side before and after a ride.  I can feel the spots that are tight when I'm foam rolling, and I really focus on those and I can feel the difference.  I also stop once an hour or so and have a stretch off the bike that helps.  Plus I'm doing some workouts that are helping, I can feel it when I walk.  What I have landed on in terms of theories, is it's not about the equipment or bike fit, it's purely me.  For example, when I stand out of the saddle and pedal up a hill, I'm still tilted.  I've thought of quick-fixes (new cockpit for the Roadini, saddle, etc.), and I don't believe any of these would really help.  I just need to stretch and strengthen.