Problem with adjusting the rear derailler / bar-end shifters

[Juhani]

Hi,

I’ve problem with adjusting my rear derailleur. It’s a Shimano XT 9-
speed low normal (rapid rise) with XT 11-34 cassette and XT 9-speed
chain. All of those are quite new and shouldn’t be worn out. The cable
is new and just lubricated and the housing should be fine as well.

The shifters are brand new Shimano Dura-Ace 9-speed bar-end shifters
which I’m trying to install.

Adjustment of the B-screw and H- & L-limit screws should be fine. I
turned the adjuster on down tube cable stop halfway between all the
way tight and all the way loose before attaching the cable. The cable
is tightened with 4th hand tool so there shouldn’t be any slack in it.

I adjusted the rear derailleur like this: I chose the middle chain
ring in the front and shifted to second largest cog in the rear. Then
turned the adjuster until it shifted to third cog. Then I turned the
adjuster back so that the derailleur shifted back to the second cog.
And finally adjusted it so that it wouldn’t make any noise.

The derailleur shifted relatively fine on the biggest cogs, but not
the 3 smallest ones. If I adjusted it so that the smallest ones
shifted fine, then the biggest wouldn’t - and vice versa.

Any ideas how to get it right?

The low normal rear derailleur and Dura-Ace bar-end shifters should be
compatible, right?

Juhani

[Earl Grey]

Juhani,

From what I can tell you setup should work fine.

Have you checked whether the derailer hanger is bent? See
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html for how.

Then follow Sheldon's derailer adjustment procedure on the same page
(start on the largest cog instead of the smallest, as your derailer is
low normal, and reverse all his instructions ["shift down" becomes
"up", etc.]).

If it still doesn't work, simply turn the indexing off. :) I turned
the shifting off on my 9 speed Shimano bar ends (with low normal XTR
derailer) after getting Silver bar ends on my other bike. I much
prefer friction shifting now, though for 20 years I rode bar ends in
index mode. The Shimanos however don't friction shift as well as the
Silvers, so I just ordered a second pair of shifters from Riv, and
will just use the Shimano bar end pods with them.

Gernot

[Earl Grey]

Another thought:

Are you sure the shifters are 9-speed? I can coax 8 clicks out of my
Shimano 7 speed barends, so perhaps you have an 8 speed that gives you
9 clicks, but the amount of cable pull would be wrong, leading to mis-
shifts at one end of the cassette or the other.

This is mere idle brainstorming, so take it with a grain of salt.

If you have multiple bikes and wheels, and 7, 8 , and 9 speed
cassettes and chains lying around, going friction is an incredibly
freeing proposition. Suddenly everything works with everything, and
you don't even have to think about it!

Good luck,

Gernot


On Nov 16, 10:11 pm, Juhani <juhani.lait...@gmail.com> wrote:

[reynoldslugs]

I have the identical problem on my Davidson, with a 12-34 9 speed
cassette matched to a 24-36-46 triple. The guys at the LBS tried
everything, replacing each part, replacing all the parts, lubing,
relubing, and readjusting the derailleur.

My problem is the same that you describe : the derailleur can be
adjusted so it does well with the three largest, or three smallest,
cogs - - but not all 9.

This is a deeply perplexing issue, since the identical drive train on
my Bob Jackson shifts just fine, dandy.

For now, I have replaced the bar-end shifters with Paul Thumbies,
moving the shfiters up on the top of my handlebars. Not as
convenient, looks odd, but shifts somewhat better. The chief
mechanic, Loathsome Fritz, thinks the problem relates to the long
cable runs. Shortening the cables by moving the shifters up top seems
to help a little. Still not perfect.

If you can figure this out, I will be grateful for whatever solution
you can come up with.
RL

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

If you can determine that the shifters are indeed 9sp, that the
derailleur hanger is not bent, that the derailleur and downtube cable
stop are snug, and that the cable is routed properly under the bb,
then I would check the cable pinch bolt. If the cable runs on the
wrong side of the bolt, it changes the leverage ratio slightly, and
may lead to the problem you're describing.

[kuma]

On Nov 16, 8:11 am, Juhani <juhani.lait...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The derailleur shifted relatively fine on the biggest cogs, but not
> the 3 smallest ones. If I adjusted it so that the smallest ones
> shifted fine, then the biggest wouldn’t - and vice versa.
>

Can you elaborate on what "shifted fine" and "wouldn't shift fine"
mean? Can you not get the chain to even go on the cog? Or is there
just a tiny bit of rubbing? A lot of rubbing?

[Michael_S]

kinda amazing it doesn't work with all Shimano parts and specifically
designated as 9 speed.
As Jim pointed out something is not set up right if it doesn't work. I
would try different shifters as my next choice of fixing the issue.
I thought there was something unique about Dura Ace shifters
compatibility too.

I'm running all sorts of Suntour/Campy/shimaNo combinations and they
all work fairly decent.

~Mike~

[Frederick, Steve]

If the bike the derailer is installed on has horizontal dropouts, you might find moving the wheel toward the front of the dropouts helps. Did for me, anyway...

Steve

~Mike~

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2010-11-16 at 12:45 -0800, Michael_S wrote:
> I thought there was something unique about Dura Ace shifters
> compatibility too.
>

8-speed days only.

[AJ]

You may want to check how your shifter is installed; the little washer
may be 90 degrees off.....AJ

[Juhani]

Thanks for all the answers.

Earl Grey: Yes, the shifters is 9-speed (or atleast it has “compatible
with 9-speed” text on it). I used Silver Shifters before, but I found
it really difficult to shift between the 4 largest cogs on 11-34 9-
speed cassette while riding uphill with some cable tension. That’s why
I wanted to go indexed.

reynoldslugs: Did changing to Paul Thumbies solve the problem
completely? Is the shifting as fine as with your Bob Jackson now?

Jim: I checked that the cable is routed and attached to the derailleur
correctly. The derailleur hanger looks just fine, but I don’t know how
to check it more than that.

Kuma: If I adjust the cable so that the 3-4 largest cogs shift nicely,
the 3 smallest ones won’t - the derailleur jumps over the 2nd smallest
cog and the smallest and 3rd smallest make noise.

If I adjust the derailleur so that the 3 smallest cogs shift nicely,
the largest ones won’t - the derailleur jumps over the 2nd largest cog
on the way down and on the largest cog the chain rides on the top of
the cog almost dropping down to the smaller cog. 3rd largest makes
noise as well or the chain rides on the top of it.

Frederick, Steve: The dropouts are vertical.

AJ: The washer is installed correctly I think (pointing straight
down). Would it shift all the 9 clicks, if it was installed wrong?

I also loosened the cable and tightened it without the 4th hand tool,
played with different cable tensions and positions with the adjuster.
Nothing really helped.

So basicly the problem is that on the largest cogs I’d need more slack
on the cable and on the smallest cogs I’d need more tension on the
cable.

Any more ideas?

Juhani

[William]

With your updated report you've ruled out cable and housing friction,
and in my opinion have eliminated re-routing the cable/housing as a
possible solution. If it were friction related, you'd shift well in
the 'pulling the cable directio' and poorly in the 'releasing the
cable direction' over all 9 cogs. Since you have problems in BOTH
directions on the bad cogs and it works in both directions on the good
cogs, and since you can adjust any 2 or 3 cogs to be good, but that
makes all the other ones bad, then this is absolutely a cable pull
rate problem. Your derailleur is moving too far, or not far enough
per click. That means you either have a combination of parts that
don't work together, or you've attached the cable to the derailer
incorrectly. If you run the cable on the wrong side of the anchor
bolt, you change the effective shape of the linkage and the pull rates
change. Some people creatively route the cable wrong to get a Shimano
this to click correctly with a Campy that. On a Shimano Deore XT Low-
normal rear derailer (both the current one without the adjusting
barrel or the last one that had an adjusting barrel built in), the
cable should be routed on the outside of the anchor bolt, on the near
side closer to you when you face the derailer. This is the opposite
side to what you are used to if you normally set up non-rapid-rise,
non-low-normal rear derailers. The photo of the XT low normal rear
derailer on the Riv-site has it routed correctly:

http://www.rivbike.com/products/show/shimano-xt-rear-der/17-117

Check that first. Take a picture of it, so we can see that it is
right.

[Juhani Laitela]

Here's a photo of the cable routing on my XT low normal (rapid rise) derailleur:

[William]

Well, you have it routed right. So you have a combination that
probably tens of thousands of other cyclists have and for whom it
works perfectly. That combination, based on how you described it,
should be extremely difficult to NOT set up right. But, for some
unknown reason yours doesn't work. I think you are to the point where
you have to have a pro look at it. The explanation is either going to
be some "oh, duh" thing, like your 9-speed cassette really only has 8
cogs on it, or you accidentally swapped the floating upper pulley with
the lower one, or overtightened the mounting screw on the shifter so
the overshift-correction mechanism is binding at some places in the
throw of the shifter. If it's not an "oh, duh" think, then it might
end up being something bizarre, like a defective shifter.

On Nov 17, 12:15 pm, Juhani Laitela <juhani.lait...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's a photo of the cable routing on my XT low normal (rapid rise) derailleur:
>

>  cable.jpg
> 84KViewDownload

[Juhani]

Yes, it’s frustrating because I’ve only heard good things about this
combination, but for some reason I can’t get it right.

My rear cassette has 9 cogs for sure. And even if it didn’t, my Dura
Ace shifters has written on them: “Compatible with RD-7700(9s) &
RD-7400(8s)”. So it should work even with 8-speed cassette, right?

I haven’t taken the rear derailleur apart so the pulleys are in the
same place as it was mounted in the factory. It worked fine with the
Silver Shifters - except my problem with dialing in the biggest cogs
right. And now I can get some of the cogs working - like 3 largest or
3 smallest - but not all of them at the same time.

I haven’t torqued the mounting screw with a torque tool, so I’m not
sure, but I don’t think it’s over the 10Nm recommendation. I could try
to loosen it up a bit, if you think it could cause the problem.

[William]

The same shifter and derailer combination will never index on both
Shimano 8 and Shimano 9. Shimano 8 has 4.8mm spacing between cogs.
Shimano 9 has 4.34mm spacing between cogs. That specification written
on your shifter means that the amount of cable pulled by each click is
right to make an RD7700 move 4.34mm and that same amount of cable also
happens to make an RD7400 move 4.8mm. The geometry of the derailer
parallelogram on all 9-speed Shimano derailers was designed to be
equivalent, so that for 9 speed, one model of shifter is supposed to
index correctly with any 9-speed shimano rear derailer.

[Juhani]

OK, but anyways it's a Shimano XT 9-speed cassette with XT 9-speed
chain. I counted the cogs.

[Steve Palincsar]

I was just looking at Sheldon's Dura Ace compatibility chart
(http://www.sheldonbrown.com/dura-ace.html) and it made mention of a 10
spd Shadow MTB rear derailleur that is compatible only with a 10 speed
Shadow shifter. Is there any chance this could be one of those?

[Juhani]

It's a Shimano RD-M770 SGS rear derailleur. Technical Service
Instructions paper says "Gears: 9".

http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/global_cycle/en/us/index/products/mountain/deore_xt/product.-code-RD-M770-SGS.-type-.html
http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/SI_5W50A_001/SI_5W50A_001_En_v1_m56577569830616237.pdf

[William]

Yep! From what you've described you have a combination that works
perfectly every single time....just not yours. A pro looking at it
will hopefully find the flaw that we haven't suggested and therefore
you haven't told us about, or will decide which part is defective and
needs to be replaced. Or he'll be just as confused as you and make a
wild guess, like "let's see if this helps" or "sometimes this
helps".

[Jeremy Till]

I'd have somebody check if your derailer hanger is properly aligned.
Park makes a gauge for this, most shops should have one...

[Juhani]

I mixed things a bit in my answer about the torque. The bar-end
shifter pods are torqued without tool, but I think they are just right
- around 7Nm. They seem very sturdy. The screw that goes through the
middle of the shift lever is tightened with a high quality torque tool
to recommended 2,5Nm - and the shift lever feels just right with the
“clicks”. The rear derailleur attachment bolt is torqued without a
tool, but should be around the recommended 10Nm.

The derailleur hanger looks just fine - it doesn't seem to be bend in
anyway. Should I be able to see if there was something wrong with it?
In friction mode the shifting works fine. Or could it mess up the
index shifting if it was off just tiny little - not visible for eye?

[Earl Grey]

Yes. There is a special tool any bike shop should have that's
basically a long straight stick that screws into the hanger threads,
and because of its length makes a small bend noticeable.

Gernot

[Juhani]

Do I need to remove rear rack and fender to be able to use that tool?

[Juhani]

I called my LBS, but they’re leaving to a bicycle show over the
weekend. Their mechanic ask me every same question as you guys, and he
couldn’t understand what could be wrong.

He told me that it sounds like it’s something wrong with the shifter
or that Shimano has changed the cable pull for the 2010 rapid rise XT
(which he hadn’t heard of).

He said that even with quite bend derailleur hanger the index should
work quite OK. So if it looks as straight as mine and works fine with
friction, he thought it couldn’t be the problem.

What do you think? I live in a country side and this is the only good
bike shop here.

Sometime after the weekend I could go and show him the bike if I
haven’t figured it out yet, but he said he really hasn’t clue what
could be wrong.

I triple checked that the shifter washers are mounted correctly and
added torque to Shimano’s recommended max 3Nm. But the problem
remains. Friction shifting works fine though.

Juhani

[Phil Bickford]

Hi Juhani and RBWer's

I looked at the photo in your post and immediately thought - the
cables on the wrong side of the fixing bolt.
But knowing how I have a penchant for having a big mouth and for being
incorrect at times with my snap judgments, I withheld saying anything
till I had a look around the house at mine. So my Campy derailer
cables are fixed on the bottom side - which doesn't proof anythiing -
but I do have a NORMAL pull 9 speed XT RD with the groove in the
casting for the cable on the underside of the bolt.
Your reverse pull may require a different attachment point, I'm not
familiar with them. Any way it may be worth a look, and certainly
would be a cheap fix.
Hope this helps.

Phil B

[Juhani]

The cable is routed correctly I think. Here’s a link to Shimano’s
technical instructions for the derailleur:

http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/SI_5W50A_001/SI_5W50A_001_En_v1_m56577569830616237.pdf

I’ve followed the instructions and secured the cable in the groove as
supposed.

What a mysterious problem...

J

[CycloFiend]

A couple other variables to check -
- slack or poor seating in the cable housing/ferrule interface. That would
tend to make itself known as you increase pressure. (I once found that an
extra ferrule had been stuck into the derailleur body itself - couldn't see
it, but realized that the other ferrule wasn't seated correctly).

- a loose freehub body. These are tightened into the hub shell with a
hollow hex-head bolt. You have to remove the axle to tighten this.

- loose cogs on the freehub. If the lockring loosens.

In the latter two examples, you will feel either play of the sprockets, or
the sprockets will be tight but the whole cogset will move together.

hope that helps,

- J

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Your Photos are needed! - Send them here -
http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines

"I threw one leg over my battle-scarred all-terrain stump-jumper and rode
several miles to work. I'd sprayed it with some cheap gold paint so it
wouldn't look nice. Locked my bike to a radiator, because you never knew,
and went in."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Zodiac"

[eflayer]

are you still screwing with this? check out these detailed
instruction and notice the last paragraph re: Rapid Rise. Maybe there
is something new here:

http://mountain.bike198.com/how-to-install-and-adjust-your-rear-derailleur/

On Nov 20, 1:22 pm, CycloFiend <cyclofi...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> on 11/19/10 10:13 AM, Juhani at juhani.lait...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > The cable is routed correctly I think. Here¹s a link to Shimano¹s
> > technical instructions for the derailleur:
>

> >http://techdocs.shimano.com/media/techdocs/content/cycle/SI/SI_5W50A_...

> > 50A_001_En_v1_m56577569830616237.pdf
>
> > I¹ve followed the instructions and secured the cable in the groove as
> > supposed.
>
> > What a mysterious problem...
>
> A couple other variables to check -
> - slack or poor seating in the cable housing/ferrule interface.  That would
> tend to make itself known as you increase pressure. (I once found that an
> extra ferrule had been stuck into the derailleur body itself - couldn't see
> it, but realized that the other ferrule wasn't seated correctly).
>
> - a loose freehub body.  These are tightened into the hub shell with a
> hollow hex-head bolt. You have to remove the axle to tighten this.
>
> - loose cogs on the freehub. If the lockring loosens.
>
> In the latter two examples, you will feel either play of the sprockets, or
> the sprockets will be tight but the whole cogset will move together.
>
> hope that helps,
>
> - J
>
> --
> Jim Edgar

> Cyclofi...@earthlink.net
>
> Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries -http://www.cyclofiend.com

> Current Classics - Cross Bikes
> Singlespeed - Working Bikes
>

> Your Photos are needed! - Send them here -http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines

[Juhani]

Hi guys,

Yes, I’m still trying to figure out the problem. I promise I'll let
you know if I get it fixed.

At the moment, I’m riding the bike with friction shifting, but I hope
the indexing is eventually going to start working.

I'll show the bike to the mechanic in my LBS next week. The guy in
internet shop who sold me the shifter (and the other stuff) is going
to talk with his mechanic as well. Maybe they can figure it out.

Thanks for the link Eddie. I’ll check it out.

And thanks for the advices Jim. I’ve checked all the housing ferrules
and I think they’re just fine. Also both cassette and freehub body is
correctly torqued.

Regards, Juhani

[Juhani]

It seems like the shifter is working now! :)

Almost too embarrassing to tell how it went. I never got the shifting
adjusted while the bike was in the stand (actually 2 different
stands). Trust me, I tried everything. That’s why I never tried it
loaded - the shifting seemed far too nasty for that.

Then I went for a ride today and headed to the hills nearby. I was
riding with friction shifting, but thought I’d try the indexing just
for fun for those gears that worked. I actually read the link that
Eddie mailed (Thanks Eddie!). The article said “Most bikes shift
differently in the stand than they do under load.” So I gave it a try.

To my great surprise, the shifting was completely different under
load. So I actually got the shifting adjusted so that it works fine on
all gears. It was much easier than while the bike was in the stand.

I couldn’t hear any noise or anything from the gears. But it was very
windy and hard to hear anything, so we’ll see. All the gears seemed to
be allright though.

It’s still a mystery to me why it didn’t work in the stand, but I
guess it’s two completely different things to use it under load or
unloaded.

Thanks for all the help!

If you have any reflections around this, please let me know.

Regards, Juhani

[eflayer]

I have never had quite that dramatic and experience from the stand to
the road under load, but guessing, trial and error have both been a
big part of my learning about bikes. The net is a wonderful thing.