Remember Islabikes?

[LeahFoy]

You may remember my past thread about needing a good bike for my 7 year old child. The List graciously pointed me to Islabikes. The Portland dealer was lovely; the rep asked what I ride, and was very complimentary upon hearing it is a Rivendell. Islabikes create bikes that just make good sense - ergonomics aside, they have provisions for racks and panniers and fenders, good stuff. I began to think of them as "Riv-ish."

Imagine my dismay today when I saw the unveiling of their new "pro line" of bikes. Carbon forks! In children's bikes! Lighter carbon than their competitors, even! Oh, let's not even tell Grant. Not after yesterday's BLUG post...
http://www.islabikes.com/pro-research-and-development/

[Deacon Patrick]

Anyone looking for an alternative, we went with Cleary Bikes and have loved them! https://clearybikes.com

Simple, clearly defined line whose value and quality proposition well summarized by their tag line: Tools, not toys.

Gecko: without pedals until she's ready, so a balance bike she'll pedal by the end of summer most likely.

Owl: geared perfectly as a single speed kid's bike. 

Meerkat: Waiting in the wings for her to get big enough and wanting gears.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Lungimsam]

Are those really your kids' names?

[Brewster Fong]

I don't get this post. According to their website, Islabikes still offers a wide range of aluminum bikes with what steel forks for children:

http://www.islabikes.com/product-category/bikes/

So what if they are expanding into carbon?   I don't think a carbon bike by itself is going to cause all the death and destruction that many people fear. Instead, I think it taps into a market that may be missing, i.e., those who kids want to get in to cross or mtb racing.  Since Redline has removed itself from the cross market, there is an opening for someone like Islabikes to get in.  Good Luck!

 

[David Person]

No, the names of the different model bikes by Cleary.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

As Brewster Fong stated, Islabikes still offer their traditional series. I just got a Beinn 26 for my son after reading about it on Bicycle Quarterly and was quite impressed with its functionality and quality. It's a solid and simple bike, which is just right for my son who's not terribly interested in bikes, except as a tool to get to his friends'. I originally wanted to get a Clem for my son, but even the smallest Clem is a bit too big.

On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 2:03:46 PM UTC-7, LeahFoy wrote:

[Anne]

IslaBikes have been great for the kids. There is a niche for even performance-oriented kids bikes. If kids want to get into racing and the financial means are there...what's bad about it? The original line of bikes isn't going away. Choice is good for all.

[LeahFoy]

Yes, it's nice to have choices. Islabikes makes a great line of kids' bikes, and as long as that original line exists, I'm a happy customer. Yay for Islabikes, and all that stuff.

BUT....

Is no one else a bit nervous about carbon forks on children's bikes? What did Grant say on the BLUG? Something like "the worst material a fork can be made from" or something close to that. And I don't know if you get to keep the company of children much, but I am in the thick of child-rearing, and WOW can kids be hard on stuff. The idea of carbon in combo with kids just makes me nervous. And if you know about carbon and you're good with that, well, ok. But I know most people couldn't tell you a thing about carbon fiber except that it's expensive and light and therefore must be good. Can't you see someone with money to burn getting one of these for his/her kid and not knowing about carbon?

I don't have an extensive biking background. I had Target/Walmart bikes until 2012, when my Walmart Schwinn broke. I got a Craigslist Trek which was my first "nice bike" and sold it after I couldn't stand the pain from being hunched forward. By Dec. I had my Betty Foy, and I'll probably die with that bike. I realize I don't have extensive experience with bikes (carbon or otherwise) but I've read enough to really distrust carbon, and for a kid? No thanks. Islabikes can do whatever it likes, but it took me by surprise when they went this direction. And I hope they don't change the original line of bikes, which are really great.

[Shoji Takahashi]

I kinda get it for the older kids, but Islabikes offers Pro Series down to the 16" bike designed for 4+-- at nearly $1,200! Most of my friends with young kids gave me a look when I spent ~$300 on the non-Pro Cnoc. I have no regrets on that: my 6yo son learned on it and now my 4yo daughter toodles around the neighborhood with me.

Maybe it's the unracer in me: I think bikes are great for adventure, or getting to a friends house down the road to play. It doesn't have to be about racing all the time, right? 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/stakx/27103421162/in/datetaken/

shoji

[Deacon Patrick]

In a world of "racing light" is king, customers will buy carbon and be uninformed that the bikes are throwaway after the first hard knock (who can imagine that with a kid's bike?" or at the very least the frame integrity needs be checked by a competent specialist after every spill ("did you drop your bike today, Davey?". I think of the "fork wars" video: how many times as a kid did I leap off my bike, take a tumble, or simply slam my bike down hard, with a lot of lateral pressure on the fork/frame? Far more than I ever realized.

What I find concerning is precisely that carbon has no place in a kid's bike. Ever. Yet they are offering it. It shows me their underlying principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Wednesday, May 25, 2016 at 3:51:39 PM UTC-6, Brewster Fong wrote:

I don't get this post. So what if they are expanding into carbon?   I don't think a carbon bike by itself is going to cause all the death and destruction that many people fear. 

[Scott Henry]

Carbon is much much sturdier than you think.    Carbon is also much more trusted everywhere else in life than it is on this list.    By the mode of thinking around here, carbon would also have no place on a seatpost, mountainbike, or a folder, or a car, airframe, in the military....     It'll be fine.    

You'd be surprised at how overbuilt cheap carbon like that really is.    Top end racing carbon parts wouldn't be good for children, but then again, neither would top end aluminum or lightweight steel.   Carbon forks on those cheap bikes, and by that I'm referring to anything retailing below about $1500, are really study.   Many of those forks aren't even that much lighter.   They are built sturdy, maybe tapered and aero, but they are built like a tank.

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[masmojo]

I am not partial to carbon fiber forks or bikes, not because of it failing (at least not right away), but because I tend to keep my bikes for long periods of time and carbon had a definite shelf life. There a re exceptions, but overall I would not feel safe riding the average 15 year old carbon fiber bike.
Now, that said there are literally, millions of carbon fiber bikes out there and increasingly it is the material of choice for forks! Just about any frame builders web site will feature at least one & generally you have to do a little digging (& drop a ton of money) if you want something besides carbon fiber! So playing devils advocate here, can they really be so bad? I personally know a dozen people with carbon fiber frames, they ride frequently and have for many years & I haven't heard one horror story of anything breaking!
Back in the day I knew people with Kestrals & occasionally they had issues, but rarely catastrophic failures! Now those and other early CF bikes were generally massively overbuilt. I think the industry, using that as a starting point started lightening and refining, in the process I assume they went too far and things got too fragile!? Now it seems as if they have found the middle ground, they know where to add heft and strength and they have a fair idea where they can cheat & save weight. Overall it appears the current crop of CF forks are indeed quite robust!
Still, how viable are these frames/forks going to be in 20 years!? Time will tell, but I'll keep with my steel (and maybe titanium)
Important to note that 30 years ago people maligned aluminum as a frame material, saying it was too soft and it would fail, but the heat treated aluminum frames have proven themselves, very few actually did fail.
10 years from now maybe we'll be laughing this off!?

[LeahFoy]

Oh my word - little darlings, right there!!!

[Daniel D.]

Carbon's perfect for a kid's bike they'll outgrow it before the auto self destruct timer grant talks about activates. 

[John Phillips]

I know carbon would not have held up to what we did as kids.

We were monsters!

Our parents would have been foolish to spend extra cash on a bike with carbon parts.

John

[Deacon Patrick]

If a bike is a throw away item rather than a pass it on item, perhaps (and if so, that is a whole other kettle of fish against CF). Still seems a big risk to take. A bike tumbling off the top of a dirt pile suddenly has significance it should never have.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Leah Peterson]

We used to get going at speed on the bikes, jump off and watch to see how far the bikes would "ghost ride" before they crash-landed.  We jumped curbs, off-roaded into the coolies and ditched the bikes wherever we felt like it. We carried friends on the bars. Yeah, carbon would have been a mistake in my youth!

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[doc]

Ha!  That was my first thought until I opened the link.  doc, father of Hazard.

[Deacon Patrick]

With four kids life is a wee menagerie! Grin. And we pray for more!

With abandon,

Patrick

[Garth]

     By golly yes !  It IS going to be alright .  It's just another material to choose from. Obviously everyone who owns a carbon isn't crashing and burning nor will they be . 

[Mark in Beacon]

I agree 100% with Leah. Disappointing.

I bought an Islabike for  my 6 year old in March. He loves the bike. I will say that if they were offering the "pro" series at that time, I would have seriously considered going in another direction.

For me the issue is not necessarily the safety of carbon--I will assume that is really no more of an issue these days than any other material. (but carbon steerer? Really?)

For me the issue is the blatant attempt to make kids want the "pro stuff." Now, companies have long used pro names to sell merch, from baseball gloves to sneakers to bicycles (Sears had a "Ted Williams" bicycle.) But the ever-increasing specialization and technization of professional racing bicycles makes it kind of absurd to create a kid's bike in this image. Here is the bike for the Age 4 set (the only one without disc brakes, by the way):

Cnoc 16 Pro Series

Age 4+ / $1199.99

 The first bike we all dreamed of and the most important bike you’ll ever buy.

The Cnoc 16 Pro Series is a superb introduction to riding for the young cyclist in your life. Stunning specifications and features will give them an unforgettable experience at one of the most important stages of their cycling development.

Riiiiiggght. The main takeaway a young cyclist will get during this "most important stage of their cycling development" is that, to really succeed, you need to buy the bling, baby. But hey, we need to create good little consumers, and what better time in life to sink your brand in?

In the How We've Used Carbon Fiber section, there's this:

This decision to adopt the use of carbon fiber has lead to us designing and developing our own range of perfectly proportioned, ultra-light forks, specifically tailored to work perfectly with our Pro Series frames.

The Pro Series forks are constructed of Toray T700s standard modulus unidirectional carbon fiber. ..blah blah technomumbojumbo blah blah...

Through manipulation of the fork shape we have been able to achieve the ride qualities we were looking for. (My emphasis) Our exclusive monocoque design features gently curved fork legs which reduce in size towards the center allowing the fork to flex evenly along its entire length for ride comfort, while flattened profiles retain steering sharpness....

By using multiple unidirectional carbon fiber layers in varying degrees throughout the fork we can also adjust the fork characteristics....blah blah multidirectional blah blah layup...blah blah

For the ultimate in lightweight, the forks feature full carbon construction of the legs, crown and steerer. Because they are designed for lighter riders we have been able to build them significantly lighter than equivalent adults models whilst still being strong enough to withstand rigorous loads — over and above testing...

We’ve incorporated a neat internal routing for the brake hose on our disc brake models, keeping the cable out of harms way and removing the need for a screw-on clamp.

Seriously? How would you know that you've achieved "the ride qualities 'you' were looking for?" By tooling around the test track on a 16" wheeled bicycle? Come on. Keeping the cable out of harm's way? What about the revolving discs that the pros recently decided to ban? Sheesh.

I had to think long and hard before laying out in the neighborhood of $600 for a bike my 6-year-old will outgrown in 2 years max. I did it because he has shown a real interest and enjoyment in bicycling, and it is something we do together, and the bike's features had a true cost for benefit logic. Plus I figured a chunk of that would be recouped at resale, or his younger cousin would ride it. $1200 for a 4-year-old's bicycle is, honestly, nuts. And not just because it is out of my price range. My son's mother wanted to buy him the same bicycle to have when he is with her! I said please, no, let's just get the bike back and forth. What kind of values would we be teaching by getting him two of the same bicycle? Or a "pro" bike that looks just as menacing and depressing as today's "real race bicycle" and goes well above and beyond what any kid needs (or really, should have) at that age? The "regular" Islabikes come in bright, fun kid colors. The "pro" bikes come in stealth matte black with blood red highlighting.

I understand there are arguments for the existence of these things--hey, if you have the money and you want the "best" why not? Hey, life is competition, give the kid an edge. Hey, why not emulate your "heroes. "Hey, why not rent that baby elephant for your kid's 7th birthday party. Hey, etc. etc.

It goes without saying that this is strictly my point of view. I think in another post about the Islabikes I mused about a collaboration between Rivendell and Islabike. Guess they went another way. It really is a bummer. Mack and I will still enjoy our rides together just as much, but I'll be way less likely to talk up the bike to other parents. Because yeah, it does matter what you decide to make and sell. Not that my little non-recommendations by omission will make a difference, but oh well.

[LeahFoy]

Yes, yes, yes. Mark's response hits on another thing that pinched a nerve with me - these weird proclamations of all the benefits of this new tech. "We were able to save 40grams!" and other silly remarks makes me feel a little sick to my stomach. When I look at the original line of happy, thoughtful children's bikes, I feel a little betrayed by the company's new line of sinister-looking, techy, bragadocious bikes. Islabikes can make whatever they like, but I guess I felt led to believe they embraced a different philosophy. And I felt so good buying from a bike company that stood for something practical and thoughtful in a world of commercial, race-centric bikes.

[Daniel D.]

Wow...

[Scott Henry]

Wow is right.   I have no idea what world some of you all live in. 

Islabike only has one philosophy, to make money.   They will sell the consumer whatever they want to buy.    That's how this works.    

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[Mark in Beacon]

Wow. Can't quite wrap your mind around it? Let me try to help.

You are on a list called Rivendelll Bicycle Works Owners Bunch.

Conveniently, serendipitously even, the owner and founder of RBW  wrote a post a couple of days ago that expounds on some of the motivations behind his business. Some of those reasons include not selling stuff he doesn't think his customers need, or that he believes could be capable of harming them.

The OP, having gotten recommendations about another company, Islabikes, that sounded like they might share some of this approach toward doing business, was dismayed to see evidence recently appear that seems to contradict this, yes, assumption.

In the world I live in, thankfully, there are still a few businesses that exist for reasons in addition to making a profit, and will not, in fact, sell the consumer whatever they want. Sadly, it does appear that Islabike, until recently a contender, does not fall into this category. Hence the thread discussion. Hope this helps dissipate some of the confusion.

[RJM]

There is a lot of negativity towards this company here which made me check the link so I can understand why, and after I still don't get it.

I've never heard of this company before but I understand why they are making this pro line...not a lot of companies cater to the young racer and offer equipment for that. They are filling a market. If you don't believe that kids that young are racing then you aren't attending many races. Just this past weekend I worked a local mountain bike race day and there was a kid class, and they were competitive and having fun at the same time riding a smaller portion of the same trail that the adults rode on. Very capable kids.

[Mark in Beacon]

From my first post in this thread:

I understand there are arguments for the existence of these things--hey, if you have the money and you want the "best" why not? Hey, life is competition, give the kid an edge. Hey, why not emulate your "heroes. ...

 

It goes without saying that this is strictly my point of view.

But since you never heard of the company until today I am going to assume you are also not familiar with its original approach to kid's bikes, that may be why you don't understand why at least a couple of us who bought bicycles from them recently might feel betrayed or disappointed by this latest direction of "pro" bicycles for 4-year-olds. From Why Islabikes:

It’s easy to be tempted by the latest technology on adult bikes and the ideas that often unnecessarily trickle down to kids’ bikes. Isla focuses on the sort of advantages that make riding easier and more pleasurable....

The reputation of an Islabike helps maintain high resale value. A bike designed with an emphasis on making the whole ride experience easier and safer will never have the cheapest price tag, however, the ideal fit, durability, ease of maintenance, and desirability of an Islabike ensure retention of value.

Sound at all like the ethos embodied by another bicycle company you've heard of? (Note that the "retention of value" to this point does not yet include the new pro line, which is still in the pre-order phase.) Sound at all like they will need to change this little blurb with the advent of the "Pro Series"?

 As I also said earlier, if I had known this was Islabikes take on things, I had several other choices in terms of companies that sell decent kids bikes to choose from and might well have gone another way. So you see, it's partly the context here, which should be clear enough. And by that I mean both the scenario outlined above and the fact that this is a forum that, at least loosely, is based on the idea of celebrating a philosophy of "just ride," of practical bicycles not limited by the parameters of modern day pro level machines. No doubt there are many places on the Internet to celebrate carbon fiber racing bicycles designed for kids 4-12 years old.

And by the way, this idea that they are "filling a market" and "giving customers what they want" is also a bit suspect. One reason RBW is such a niche company is that the majority of people shopping for bicycles are at the mercy of the industry, which has a vested interest in pushing certain types of bicycles. And if you don't get that, I am truly puzzled why you are on this list. (Note that none of this means I think people should only ride Rivendells, or that carbon sucks, or that people cannot have fun on pro style racing bicycles. It's not about that per se.)

[Scott Henry]

I'm on this list because I like bicycles.    All of them, not just bikes that Grant markets.   He does contract out some pretty ones, but I like all bikes.   My stable starts with a 1958 Schwinn and goes straight thru to a 2015 Haanjo cross.   There are bikes of steel, aluminum and carbon, I've sold a ti.    They all ride different, but they are all fine bikes designed for different tasks.   I have a quickbeam, its pretty and it does what it is designed to do.

Sometimes I wonder how many on this list in particular have ever ridden a carbon bike.  They really aren't that bad and they certainly aren't that dangerous.    I can't see how it will hurt their 'retention of value' in the least.   
Ideal fit, durability and ease of maintenance is really just marketing verbiage.   Its a bicycle: fit comes from offering sizes, bikes are durable by design and ease of maintenance - there are 12 year olds building these things in asia, they aren't that complicated.

[RJM]

Maybe Grant needs to make some kids bikes then.

 But, it seems that Islaybikes are also making the bikes you seek along with a line of bikes more performance oriented for those seeking such. Choices are good and in today's bike marketplace, there are a ton of them. I just fail to see how offering both is that big of a deal.

As to questioning why I'm on this list... I've owned 4 rivs and still have two; even bought and sold stuff to list members. I've even purchased a Gransfors Bruks hatchet and two copies of "Just Ride" and even gave one away so it isn't like I don't know what Rivendell is about.

But...

I also started racing and appreciate nice race bikes and understand why people do it and actually enjoy doing it. Liking these two aspects of riding don't have to be mutually exclusive and I certainly see room for both. I also don't agree with Riv on carbon forks or carbon bikes, nor on lycra or disc brakes...but I don't have to agree with everything Rivendell stands for to enjoy the bikes nor the list. I don't have to choose just one "philosophy" when I can enjoy all of it.

[Daniel D.]

Because I like steel, I like pretty paint jobs, I like wool, I like swedish axes, I like leather saddles, I like lugs, I like racks, I like nice bags, I like the best bike shop experience ever, 

 But what I enjoy and am willing to spend is not the end all be all .  Don't get the snobbery and need for it to be a "cause".   

[Mark in Beacon]

You guys are conflating the things I've written.This is not about snobbery or proselytizing,  not about anti this or that, not about who should or should not be on the list. I did not question anyone's qualifications for being on RBW.  If you have actually read what I wrote and the reason for my, let's face it, in the context of life, mild dismay at Islabikes is not clear, I cheerfully give up! Wait, one last time:

There is a kid's bicycle company. It appeared that they had some Riv-like qualities and a similar approach to bicycles as RBW. I purchased a bike from them based in some good measure on this approach. They are now offering a line of kid's bikes that in many ways goes against this approach toward making and selling bicycles. I am disappointed. You don't have to be. Not in the slightest.

[Scott Henry]

And that's the point that is confusing, islabike is still making the type of bike that you are referring to.     All they are doing is offering consumers a choice.

Intolerance and single-sightedness don't seem to be those Riv qualities that some of you preach on about.

So it's a great company if they make only the type of bike that you want?  But it's a bad company if they make the bike you want AND the type of bike that someone else may want?

Wow.  It's no wonder the reputation garnered here.

[Deacon Patrick]

Stop being ridiculous, Skenry. Nothing in this thread except your use of the words is intolerant or single-minded.

In deciding between Cleary and Islabike I called and talked with both companies. Islabike was very "business and component" focused, Cleary was very "parent and kid experience with the bike" focused. That made my decision to buy from Cleary easy (despite my natural deference to anything resembling an Islay connection. Grin.). As I said earlier, and foreshadowing what Mark eventually said: "It shows me their underlying principles of bicycling differ greatly from mine."

With abandon,

Patrick

[Lynne Fitz]

Doing a quick compare of the offerings of the two companies - Pro series aside, Islabike has provision to add fenders and racks, as well as water bottle cages.  Cleary appears to have none of that.  (two grandsons getting bigger; I look into these things as well)

[Deacon Patrick]

Excellent point, Lynne. For us, longer rides needing water, racks, etc, are done via the cargo bike until they are big enough for the Meerkat. At that point, we'll have to use a clamp on rack system and water bottle. But on the smaller bikes, we decided the room, weight, and need just weren't there. Our third daughter is about a year away from being able to bikepack on short S24Os, so that will be a good "problem" to have come next winter to occupy me. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Scott Henry]

Deacon,
You might want to read some of XXXX and others posts. 

It has been specifically stated that people liked the company before, and no longer do and they could not recommend them anymore after they EXPANDED their offerings.

How tolerant is that?   The "my way out the highway" approach doesn't fly with me.

Choice is a good thing.  
Options are good things.

I expected more from this list.

[Deacon Patrick]

Skenry, personal choice and discernment about a product or company doesn't even enter the realm of requiring tolerance and actually rightly exercises intolerance all the time. Though I suspect we have differing definitions. For reference my understanding of tolerance/intolerance is beautifully expressed by Bishop Fulton Sheen:

“Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil … a forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment. Tolerance applies only to persons … never to truth. Tolerance applies to the erring, intolerance to the error … Architects are as intolerant about sand as foundations for skyscrapers as doctors are intolerant about germs in the laboratory.

Tolerance does not apply to truth or principles. About these things we must be intolerant, and for this kind of intolerance, so much needed to rouse us from sentimental gush, I make a plea. Intolerance of this kind is the foundation of all stability.”

Having an intolerance for various qualities in a product is a part of customer choice. So, is this "intolerance" as in the PC use of the word that means "bigoted, wrongly judgmental"? No. Is it intolerance of qualities in a product and choices of a company? Absolutely. That part of the virtue of the free market. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Deacon Patrick]

So, my initial response to your use of the word "intolerant," Scott, should have been:

Yes. People are expressing an intolerance in this thread. That is a good thing. I am intolerant of mass produced beer, whisky from anywhere but Islay, bikes made of materials that fail without warning, companies that objectify their customers and see them more as dollars than as people, spoiled milk, rotten eggs, and a whole lot of other things. You keep expressing intolerance for intolerances expressed in this thread as disappointment in the group and in the people. To me, that says a lot about you and very little about the group or the people in this thread.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Scott Henry]

The dictionary say intolerance is unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own.

Yep.

[Scott Henry]

Let us all just try to be a little more open minded.

There is a huge difference in saying I don't like a certain bicycle company because... and saying I like all bicycles because...

Try to be positive cyclists and embrace the activity in its entirety.

I guess I thought that you all being cyclists that you liked rivendell and bicycling overall.

[Leah Peterson]

As a side note, maybe Grant is listening and will have mercy on those of us looking for Riv-esque bikes for our kids. He's been extending his offerings with his Clem and his Rosco and his Hubbah Hubbah. Why not a bike for bigger kids? Is it feasible to make a 24 and 26 inch bike with one of the Rosco forks? I'd be very happy to continue with my extreme prejudice for all things Rivendell, if given the chance. I've got a boy needing a bike next year!

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[Deacon Patrick]

A black Clementine may be just the ticket, Leah. Our two eldest are growing wonderfully into their mediums (we're hoping that size will fit them as their "forever" bike), but a small clementine in black or orange. I'll be doing a Continental Divide criss-cross bikepacking  trip with my two eldest this summer. Or is the whole "girls bike" think a barrier?

With abandon,

Patrick

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/28/2016 06:36 PM, Trenker wrote:

I think that Skenry makes some valid points. If the idea is to “just ride,” then who cares what kind of bike someone else chooses?

Rivendells are really nice bikes. They are sturdy and good-looking and made to last. They are also expensive. I think when you buy something expensive there is a tendency to give it great reviews because it cost so much; for example, I got a pair of expensive shoes for weddings/funerals, and I felt great when I wore them. They even seemed to fit extremely well. But the cost of a shoe doesn’t have anything to do with how well it fits. I think when someone talks about “the ride” of a Rivendell they are showing some consumerism and elitism because the ride of a bike depends mainly on the tires and the fit of the bike.

Geometry doesn't matter?  I don't think so.  I'm not sure what you mean by "ride" is what everybody else means by the term.   Neither the tires nor the fit of the bike will influence how the bike turns or how stable or maneuverable it feels.   And I think you're wrong about "consumerism" and "elitism" in this context:  Bleriots ride like Rivendells.  This is beyond dispute.  And yet, the Bleriot was relatively inexpensive, and hardly an "elitist" product as we understand "elitist".  The same can be said for the Romulus, the low end no-frills Rambouillet.   Yes these were not five hundred dollar department store bikes, but they surely weren't high-end bikes for the elite either.  And the ride was instantly identifiable as "Rivendell" and stayed that way no matter whether you were using low end or high end tires, or whether the bike was a great fit or not.

[Deacon Patrick]

Trenker, could you please apply your thinking to yourself and get back with us? Read your second sentence aloud. Then read your last two paragraphs aloud.

With abandon,

Patrick

On Saturday, May 28, 2016 at 4:36:55 PM UTC-6, Trenker wrote:

I think that Skenry makes some valid points. If the idea is to “just ride,” then who cares what kind of bike someone else chooses?

Rivendells are really nice bikes. They are sturdy and good-looking and made to last. They are also expensive. I think when you buy something expensive there is a tendency to give it great reviews because it cost so much; for example, I got a pair of expensive shoes for weddings/funerals, and I felt great when I wore them. They even seemed to fit extremely well. But the cost of a shoe doesn’t have anything to do with how well it fits. I think when someone talks about “the ride” of a Rivendell they are showing some consumerism and elitism because the ride of a bike depends mainly on the tires and the fit of the bike.

Re. a kid’s bike by Rivendell: There was an aborted attempt at one once, and it was going to be called Rosco Bubbe. Or maybe it was Bosco Rubbe at the time.  It would have been a nice bike, but I don’t think kids need an expensive bike, and I don’t think most kids are going to ride a bike with a semi-ironic name like Roscoe Bubbe. Kids are very attuned to what their peers are using and they like bikes that are sporty and give an impression of speed. A great bike for kids is the bmx bike, they are still popular and are generally fun to ride, simple and durable.

 

 

[stonehog]

Scott - please don't lump a whole list of us into those you don't agree with on one thread.  Of the bicycle groups I've been observing, this is one of the most open minded and educated.  :)  

And thanks for pointing out there are good things to be found in other bikes, too.

Brian Hanson

Seattle, WA

www.stonehog.com

[masmojo]

You know honestly I am just as dumbfounded as Skenry!
I think the original feelings expressed were ones of betrayal; they bought a bike that suited their needs, but the company introduces a bike that suits the needs of someone else, a bike that they take some objection too because of what it's made out of!? As I understand it they still make the other bikes that they liked, they've just expanded their offerings, not sure why that's a problem!? Don't like carbon fiber? Fine don't buy it! Don't think the company should sell CF bikes? Fine, buy the company and discontinue them. But, otherwise it's presumptuous to enforce your values on them.
There's the old saying that money talks & BS walks. Obviously, customers expressed a desire to buy expensive kids "racing" bike, they are merely fulfilling that need! Good for them! If they hadn't someone else would have!
Incidentally, if you read the Blug regularly Grant has expressed a desire to build bikes for kids, I believe he back burnered the idea due to cost concerns. I believe he was working on that about the time he was working on the development of the Clems.
After the tandems and Roscoe Bubbes are done maybe he will try again!?

[Garth]

DP, one persons perspective here is as valuable as another, regardless .

[Patrick Moore]

This is a funny thing to say on a Rivendell list. I do believe in list criticism instead of total Koolaid, but, I'm almost (almost) inclined to agree with Garth for once. (Almost.)

Sure, I think some Rivendell things are overpriced for the value given and the quality of cheaper alternatives, but OTOH, there is little doubt that Rivendell does offer things that are quite worth the money, and consistent ride quality of a certain sort is one of them. I sold 1 Rivendell because I really didn't like it (Sam Hill, pavement, loaded), but even that bike had certain very good handling qualities and, did it take wider tires, I'd probably not now own a custom off road bike.

Although I have no appetite for some of Rivendell's product line (and a great one for certain others), I have to say that Grant seems to have been pretty consistent with his dictum of almost 20 years ago: "We are product driven, not market driven

I decided to go back to the original post (learn the context at least after you make your assertions) and saw Leah's consternation about CF and aluminum. I have to say that I agree that these products very definitely fall under the snob element, or at least excessively doting parent elements ("It's plain gauge, seamed, low carbon steel for you, ya wee bastert") -- after all, if children will certainly care about fit and ease of riding, their standards are pretty basic.

Still and all, if a company used cf or aluminum to make a light, sturdy, reasonably priced kids' bike, why not? It's just that $2500 for an 8 year old is -- well, not a good sign, IMO.

But Isla still makes their little steel models, so all is not lost.

Patrick "adding my $0.02 to this rather strange conversation" Moore

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/29/2016 05:25 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:

after all, if children will certainly care about fit and ease of riding, their standards are pretty basic.

If the way things were back in the late 1940s/early 1950s are at all representative of kids' standards today, the "basic" can be summed up as "If you can fit on it somehow, never mind if you have to sit on the top tube or if it's so small you look like you're squatting when you sit on it, you are good to go."   This should look familiar to you, Patrick:

[Patrick Moore]

That was a very common sight in the India of the '60s -- little kids riding their fathers' bikes by pedaling through the triangle. 

With a saddle like the one pictured -- also a common sight -- no wonder.

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[kielsun]

I'm zero percent surprised that CF kids' bikes don't get a warm welcome on this list. We gather here because of our love for or interest in Rivendell Bicycles--lugged steel frames for everyday use that are intended to grow in beauty through usage. CF bikes in general are the opposite of that. Whether or not that statement stems from drinking Riv-Koolaid doesn't matter to me in the least.

How would we all feel if Grant's next Blug post was all about the brand-new, CF-forked, super lightweight pro line of Rivendells? I'd probably be pretty bummed and my Sam would lose a bit of its luster. Seems like the OP's reaction is pretty similar. The company marketed itself one way and is now doing something quite different.

[Patrick Moore]

If Grant designed a CF bicycle, I for one would be very interested in it (assuming I could afford it, which is unlikely). Why? Because a Rivendell-desiged CF bike would be a very nice riding and sturdy, and very likely good looking bike. As the RR itself (via Bontrager) said in a long ago article, material is the least important factor in frame design. Don't let's confuse CF with silly design. Your Sam would remain exactly the same as it was before. 

Not that there is a snowball's chance in hell of Rivendell ever using CF.

Patrick Moore, who has no ideological animus against CF or any other frame material.

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 5:35 PM, kielsun <bob...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm zero percent surprised that CF kids' bikes don't get a warm welcome on this list. We gather here because of our love for or interest in Rivendell Bicycles--lugged steel frames for everyday use that are intended to grow in beauty through usage. CF bikes in general are the opposite of that. Whether or not that statement stems from drinking Riv-Koolaid doesn't matter to me in the least.

How would we all feel if Grant's next Blug post was all about the brand-new, CF-forked, super lightweight pro line of Rivendells? I'd probably be pretty bummed and my Sam would lose a bit of its luster. Seems like the OP's reaction is pretty similar. The company marketed itself one way and is now doing something quite different.

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[kielsun]

My Sam would change for me because part of what I love about it are the underlying philosophy and ideas. The unparalleled ride is number one, but the other stuff matters, too.

To give a non-bike-related metaphor: a few years back I got the chance to play a couple of shows with one of my favorite musicians/songwriters. He was a jerk with women and was generally not a nice guy. Did his songs about love and humanity and tenderness and mean as much to me afterwards? Hardly--I never listen to his music anymore.

So the fact that the OP's views of Islabikes changed when she found out about this other side of their corporate identity makes total sense to me. And again, it makes even better sense to me that the idea of CF kids' bikes falls flatter than flat to most listers.

[Patrick Moore]

The underlying philosophy of the Sam remains what it was, incarnated permanently in carefully lugged steel. Beats me - I live in a less fluid universe, apparently. 

Well, we'll go back to Garth and say that "one person's perspective is as good as another['s]", using this phrase as a provisional settlement to the matter.

Patrick Moore, who has owned 5 Rivendells and still owns 2 of them, and who likes the Doors and Beethoven, even though Jim and Ludovicus were assholes.

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[Corwin]

Hi Scott -

At the outset, I will state - this is only my opinion. You are of course free to buy and/or ride whatever you want.

I don't think offering carbon bikes to or for kids is wise or appropriate. In much the same way I do not think offering guns to kids is wise or appropriate. Do I think this is an inappropriate analogy? No.

You can make a choice about what risks are appropriate. Kids (and their potentially uninformed parents) cannot make such an informed choice.

Am I being intolerant? I don't think so. We made seat-belts in cars mandatory when I was a kid in the 60's. Helmets were recently made mandatory for anyone under 18 in California. Some materials are appropriate for kids and some are not.

Carbon fibre used elsewhere (military airframes come to mind) get much more testing than kid's bikes.

I have made my opinion known to Islabikes. I will not be purchasing any bikes for my kids, grandkids or great-grandkids from them.

At their price-point for carbon-fibre, I think sales will be limited to those that have more money than sense.

Namaste,



Corwin

[Daniel D.]

this thread makes me a little less of a riv fan :p :p

[Patrick Moore]

Oh c'mon, join in!

[Will]

Garth,

I think there is too much self in your post. :-)

On Monday, May 30, 2016 at 7:41:12 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:

  No one here is being unreasonable from my perspective, they are just being themselves !   You know, I have family in the bike biz for example that will no longer do business with Rivendell.  They will not shop at certain retailers . Whatever the reasons are, I understand that their perspective is uniquely theirs, and no matter what I think of it doesn't make it right/wrong/good/bad or anything at all . They are who they are they are, just like everyone else :)  To me, their perspective does not "make them" anything, nor can it. They simply ARE who they are regardless of their perspective.

  The fact is no 2 people can or will ever have the exact same perception of anything, it is impossible because perception is based on limitless intangibles of which no one could possibly comprehend.  To try to "educate" someone to perceive the exact same way as another then is not only unnecessary it is impossible .

   To "just ride" to me simply is another way of saying "be yourself". Live and let live. I be me, you be you and I don't expect me to be anyone else or anyone else to be me.  I trust myself enough for me be me, and I trust the same of anyone else.   But yes, sometimes it may seem others are "jamming my space" so to speak. Imposing their presence upon me in some way, yes .... what about that it may asked ?  Good question , hmmm.  Alright, can another impose upon my perspective, when perception is really all there is of anything ? In other words, is it possible for the awareness of something, to influence awareness itself ? Regardless of what I am aware of, awareness is always present.  I am aware. And no matter what I am aware of, awareness itself is irrefutably present and is unchangeable. What I am aware may change, but awareness doesn't. Without awareness , there cannot be anything to aware of, you can't be aware without awareness being so.

   To me this is the Astounding and Universal fact of all, that Aware IS , regardless of what one is aware of. That I am aware, and everyone knows this fact within themselves, they know "that I am".  The rest is gravy :) 

[Tom M]

And then there's this: http://redkiteprayer.com/2016/05/the-magic-of-good-geometry/.

[Mark in Beacon]

As a recent purchaser of an Islabikes Beinn 24, I got a promo email in my box this morning. The secret is out! Looks like they are ready to take the children's pro bike racing circuit by storm! Looks super bad-hiney!

 The Pro Series from Islabikes

              Over the last year we’ve secretly been working on a brand new range of
              children’s bicycles that takes Islabikes’ reputation for proportional and
              holistic design into an even higher realm. Having seen how Islabikes     
              owners customize and modify their bikes for competition, we decided to
              create the ultimate race bikes for our young riders.

              The result is the Pro Series: a range of bikes that utilize all of our cutting
              edge research, design and development from the last ten years to create
              the most advanced children’s bikes we've ever put into production. With
              proportional custom features such as full carbon-fiber forks, our very own
              Islabikes tires and high end components, the Pro Series are the ultimate
              children’s race bikes for competitive young riders.

Just figured I'd give all of you looking to mold the next Tejay van Garderen or Peter Sagan the heads-up. Get to an "even higher realm." (Certainly a higher price realm.) This will save parents from all those time-consuming modifications and customizations that Islabikes has been watching them make, like whittling down that full size carbon fork to fit on their kids' competition bike.

This is a public service announcement and is for entertainment purposes only. No intolerance of any kind should be implied, only normal opinions, along with possibly a smidge of facetiousness and satire of the type allowed under the first amendment. If intolerance is implied, it shall be solely the responsibility of the implier (even if not named Vlad). Opinions differing from the above opinions are permissible and may be expressed where allowed by law or in my kitchen if you are visiting. Purchase of a pro series children's bicycle from Islabikes will not impact your RBW membership in any way, except to possibly limit your ability to purchase a Rivendell any time soon thereafter. Other restrictions may apply. Dealer surcharges, titles and taxes not included. Don't be too serious, it creates extra wind drag. Enjoy the ride!

[Deborah Coffin]

This post died long ago, but I’m hoping to address all of you who got one of these long enough ago that your kids might have outgrown.

If anyone has a red Islabikes Beinn 20S that I could buy, I sure would love to find one for my grandson’s 5th birthday this month.

[REC (Roberta)]

Re: Islabikes

I expect you might get something here, but if you don't, you might try a post at the iBob google groups board.

[Daniel M]

I think reading this entire thread may have been worth it for Vlad the Implier. I'm gonna think of that every time I ever hear about the better-known Vlad every time for the rest of my life.

Vlad the Impaler: "My enemies will meet their demise when my sword runs through their torsos!"
Vlad the Implier: "We have ways of settling our differences which may not be entirely beneficial to those who oppose us."

Also: didn't Islabikes go bankrupt at some point relatively recently? If they were reorganized or reincarnated by a buyout, it might explain a subsequent push to broaden their market in a manner that seems to run counter to their originally-stated intentions. They might actually believe that expanding their offerings to include more marketable and profitable options will allow them to keep selling their original product line alongside.

I am merely speculating on all counts.

Daniel M
Berkeley, CA

[Deacon Patrick]

Worth noting that while Islabikes are wondrously Rivendelian in their approach to kid's bikes, there are other options that a quite a step above the rest listed in this thread, so if you don't find a used one, they may be worth a go? Enjoy the quest!

With abandon,
Patrick

[Garth]

Islabikes is still a successful UK company of origin and HQ . They sell there and in the EU.

Woom bikes seems to make quality kids bikes for anyone looking.

https://us.woombikes.com/pages/bikes-and-accessories

Here's a review of a 20" version for example : https://rascalrides.com/woom-4-review/

[rpeters...@gmail.com]

Agreed Patrick! We just purchased a very serviceable 24in blue road-ish bike Raleigh for my 8 yr son at the local bike shop to keep up with the lot of us. It was a

Sent from my iPhone

[Mark in Beacon]

Yes. Sold the 24" Islabike my son outgrew, got him a WOOM. Very nice bike. Much lighter that most of the kid's bikes from the major brands. They also tend to have at least somewhat proportional cranks , handlebars, and brake levers. I did extensive research and I think the Islabike and the WOOM are worth the premium. They have decent resale too, since they usually remain in good shape, unless you have 3 or 4 kids that they go through. And yeah, Islabike just closed their U.S. distributor, but operating in the UK.

[Mark in Beacon]

And to clarify, I don't worry about bike weight, but with kids I think  it can be a negative when a bike ends up to be 35-50% of their body weight.

[Leah Peterson]

Mark is right about kids’ bike weight - I learned this the hard way with the lemon bomb that was the Giant 20incher I bought Baby Bear. What a punishment it was to tackle a hill on that thing. (Heavier than my older son’s Specialized Hotrock in 24 inches.) The Giant was so bad I sold it months later and bought the Islabike. That bike is long gone as he’s outgrown it, but do check out Woom. Woom can take a rack! Huge help if your grandson wants to carry his backpack or his picnic lunch. 

Sent from my iPhone

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[Patrick Moore]

I'm certainly long past the Islabike stage of parenthood, but I'm curious what Islabikes have to offer that a decent, properly sized child's bike with drivetrain removed does not?

Besides avoiding the hassle of removing the drivetrain, of course.

Patrick Moore, whose daughter stole his car, in ABQ, NM

[Patrick Moore]

50% of rider's body weight, and with a 220 mm Q factor for a 3'4" child (didn't measure, it's metaphorical, but wouldn't surprise me if it were literal for the 12" tricycle with 3" wide pneumatic tires that I bought for 2 year old daughter).. Frankly, though, IME, small children don't care (sample size of 1) even though more expensive bikes do please the parent.

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[David Bivins]

Deborah, I have the Beinn 20, which I think is the 6+ bike. My son outgrew it. If you want the specs, I can copy the original order for you.

My child cared. He wanted "a bike that looks like daddy's" and the Linus we got him first was OK, but I really took hook, line, and sinker the Islabike, with its shrunken-down and lighter, not just smaller, bike (after he outgrew the Linus). 

We were going to be commuting by bike to school every day, but we unexpectedly were eligible for a school bus on our corner the next school year, so we ran with that. I was really bummed to have gotten him this amazing bike and really only get to take a few awesome rides together. 

That said, Islabikes are beautiful and I honestly don't regret making the purchase. 

David B in Brooklyn

[Deborah Coffin]

David—
PM me, if you would. I believe there are 2 sizes of the Beinn 20–one “S” and on “L.” You can let me know how much you want for it.

Thanks to you all for the suggestions. I’m looking into some of the other options (Woom 4, Prevelo, Cleary Hedgehog) generously mentioned. The grandsons are not just ready for gears and handbrakes.

One grandson, the one turning 5, lives out in Bolinas and has been riding his bike for more than a year (instantly rode inside the bike shop, first try) after a couple of years on a no-pedal balance bike. He rides everywhere and lives on the little Mesa, so has a big hill to descend/ascend wherever he goes. He’s actually taller than the one who will turn 6 in Sept., who lives in Emeryville. He and I ride around town together. They are competitive with one another, and right now they have the same first bike, but I suspect the 5 year old might appreciate a bit more aggressive ride.

I’m sure any of these bikes will be amazing and a far cry from the clunky stuff that cause many kids to decide riding a bike is only sort of ok.

Islabikes stopped doing business in the US for two reasons. One involved the need for US kid bikes to come equipped with coaster brakes (they have handbrakes); the other issue was Brexit.

[Deacon Patrick]

I'd urge you to consider a bike with handbrakes. We found the conversion to a bike with gears MUCH easier if they were already used to handbrakes. Even their push bike has handbrakes, and our second two daughters pick it up right away whereas our first two were confused by them at a much later age because they had gears and brakes thrown at them together.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Mark in Beacon]

Removing the drive train? You mean to make it a stride a bike? The bikes being discussed are for kids presumably well-past that stage. And sure, my guy might not "care" but only because he has no baseline. In between the Islabike and the WOOM, I did assemble a nifty vintage GT Mt. Bike, complete with custom 150 cranks that I had a friend machine for me. He seemed perfectly content. But after a downhill spill, I decided to spring for the WOOM, remembering how happy I (and Mack) was with the Islabike. I'm not fussy or overprotective or the spoiling, get him what he wants only the best kind of parent, but a nice bike for my kid, absolutely. Cost is about 3 sets of Compass/Rene Herse tires, or a mid-price wheel set from Rivendell.

[Leah Peterson]

Oh, it matters. Would I have sprung for the $$$ Islabike after buying the Giant only months before if it did not? A bike mechanic at REI was servicing both boys’ bikes and he knew the hill on our school commute. Baby Bear had been frustrated on the Giant - he was proud of his bright yellow new bike, but he could never make it up the hill without walking the bike and feeling defeated. The mechanic picked up the Giant and said, “If you have a child who will ride THIS bike up THAT hill, you have a very good kid. This bike is HEAVY.” And it was. It weighed as much or more than my older son’s bike. It weighed as much as my child, or nearly. I was heartsick. 

I sold that thing and bought that Islabike quicker than a jackrabbit on a date. Baby Bear took off on that little red rocket and beat us up the hill every darn day. He hung onto that bike for years before I finally insisted he needed the next size up. 

It matters.

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[Patrick Moore]

OK, misunderstood; I thought Islabikes were walking bikes for toddlers. No, I can see a 7 or 8 year old appreciating something better than a 12" wheel department store bike.

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