thunder burt snakeskin vs raceguard

[drew]

so im doing a couple day tour on about 50/50 pavement and dirt. i really like the marathon supremes on my hunq (and actually think they are decently supple at the right pressure). but im not the best dirt rider, especially with a camping load. the last time i did this it felt like i was sliding around a lot. 

per the previous hunq-tire thread, id like to try the thunder burts. i'll be using tubes and i value puncture protection over super low weight. im more drawn to the tread, which seems pretty versatile, than to the low rolling resistance... though thats a plus

schwalbe has a description for snakeskin, liteskin and raceguard, but not a very good comparison between the 3. im pretty sure that i dont want liteskin, but im wondering what the difference between raceguard and snakeskin are.

and then follow up, while i'm at it. are these gonna be too fragile for touring?

[Mark in Beacon]

I just completed a little test, admittedly not much to go on. I am using a fourth Thunder Burt configuration, something called EVO, which I guess are the lightest plus tubeless ready. I am running them with tubes and a few squirts of prophylactic Orange Seal. But yeah, sheesh, tire designations can be confusing (not talking about names, but different formulations of the same tire).

Yesterday I took off my Rat Traps and put on the TBs, and along with my son (with his Islabike shod with newly mounted Black Jacks) headed over to the Stewart airport buffer zone, which has a mix of all kinds of conditions, from gravel to hardpack to gooey mud. Then today I took the bike for a 20 mile ride on pavement. Short take-away: I am very impressed. I see why this tire gets lots of love, and on pavement, comes close to the RTP. Some photos of all the surfaces it handled with ease can be found here:

https://goo.gl/photos/uVUdqPKVPq85C9Vh8

Long version: I was planning to write something up on these tires, different angle, over on iBob, later tonight. I think these would be a really fun tire for touring, with the possible exception of geographic areas that have lots of fixed, sharp rock--ie, sidewall dangers.

I know there are many with lots more miles on these than I have, and I got them after reading the Deacon's praise for these tires, but figured I would chime in since I literally just got off the bike when I saw your post.

[Tim Gavin]

Snakeskin adds an additional reinforcement to the sidewalls.  It's the white ply in this picture from Schwalbe's site:

https://www.schwalbetires.com/schwalbe_evolution_technology

The above link also says that Snakeskin TLR tires are the best for tubeless; the added reinforcement in the sidewall seems to help keep the sealant from seeping through.

Raceguard has a different composition, with added ply in the tread area.  This gives a Raceguard tire better puncture protection but more rolling resistance.

Liteskin eschews either additional ply, so it has the lowest rolling resistance and least puncture protection.

There's a good discussion on MTBR, with some complaints about durability of TBs, but several success stories from longer races (including the Stagecoach 400).  

http://forums.mtbr.com/wheels-tires/schwalbe-thunder-burt-887959.html

This guy loves the TB for racing, and was surprised how competent it is in mud and how predictably it cornered.  YMMV with mud.

http://twentynineinches.com/schwalbe-%E2%80%9Cthunder-burt%E2%80%9D-tire-final-review/

Personally, I have Liteskin TBs on Mavic 317 rims on my vintage 26er tour bike ('88 Schwinn KOM-10: tout Tange Prestige, and chainstay U-brakes!).  

I've ridden that bike on local, mostly dry non-technical singletrack, gravel, and pavement commuting.  I've had zero flats in about 300 miles so far.  

The TBs roll faster and have way more grip than the Liteskin Super Motos I had on it before.  They're my favorite Schwalbe tire so far, though I'm looking forward to trying some G-Ones on my cross/gravel bike.  

The TB is a light/fast tire.  So, if you're using it for touring with innertubes, I'd recommend the Raceguard version.  It should have more durability for a little more rolling resistance.  Seems like a fair trade for increased reliability on a tour.  

Or, go with the Liteskins and carry another extra tube.

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[Garth]

This may help or it may confuse you more ...prolly a bit of both !  https://www.schwalbetires.com/sites/all/definitions/Performance.html
  

RaceGuard®
This belt was developed specially with racing in mind. A synthesis of special india rubber and several layers of nylon fabric offers very effective protection against penetration punctures. There is only a minimal increase in weight and rolling resistance of these tires.

 

          SnakeSkin: A light and flexible carcass makes the tire highly resistant to scrubbing.

       LiteSkin: Skin Tires have light, thin sidewalls. Advantages: Weight saving and reduced rolling resistance.

 

It appears the raceguard version relies on a fabric belt with the lightskin sidewalls for puncture resistance whereas the snakeskin is "A light and flexible carcass makes the tire highly resistant to scrubbing" .  So that infers a completely different carcass . 

So Drew I'd assume a snakeskin version would be a good choice for you.

[Mark in Beacon]

To further confuse matters, the box that my TBs came in has no mention of  Raceguard, Liteskin, or Snakeskin. Instead, it reads :

Evolution Line
The best possible.
Highest quality materials.
The latest technology

Performance Line
Excellent quality for intensive use.

Active Line
Reliable brand quality.

[drew]

Well thanks. All the feedback seems like I should definitely go ahead and get them. Nobody seems unhappy. maybe I'll flip a coin as to the variation.

[Tim Gavin]

Mark, you have to look at the sidewall label to see the composition of the exact tire.  They use the same box for all their tires (though usually each will have sticker on it that specifies the tire inside).

[Mark in Beacon]

Yup. But my sidewall only says EVO, no Raceguard, Liteskin, or Snakeskin designation. I would imagine each of these falls under a separate "line". Again, adding to the confusion.

On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 9:04:43 AM UTC-5, Tim Gavin wrote:

Mark, you have to look at the sidewall label to see the composition of the exact tire.  They use the same box for all their tires (though usually each will have sticker on it that specifies the tire inside).

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 9:09 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

To further confuse matters, the box that my TBs came in has no mention of  Raceguard, Liteskin, or Snakeskin. Instead, it reads :

Evolution Line
The best possible.
Highest quality materials.
The latest technology

Performance Line
Excellent quality for intensive use.

Active Line
Reliable brand quality.

On Monday, February 27, 2017 at 2:17:31 PM UTC-5, Garth wrote:

This may help or it may confuse you more ...prolly a bit of both !  https://www.schwalbetires.com/sites/all/definitions/Performance.html
  

RaceGuard®
This belt was developed specially with racing in mind. A synthesis of special india rubber and several layers of nylon fabric offers very effective protection against penetration punctures. There is only a minimal increase in weight and rolling resistance of these tires.

 

          SnakeSkin: A light and flexible carcass makes the tire highly resistant to scrubbing.

       LiteSkin: Skin Tires have light, thin sidewalls. Advantages: Weight saving and reduced rolling resistance.

 

It appears the raceguard version relies on a fabric belt with the lightskin sidewalls for puncture resistance whereas the snakeskin is "A light and flexible carcass makes the tire highly resistant to scrubbing" .  So that infers a completely different carcass . 

So Drew I'd assume a snakeskin version would be a good choice for you.

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[David Banzer]

I believe EVO just refers to the Evolution Line which is a group of Schwalbe's higher-end tires. I believe the Thunder Burt is only offered as Evolution, where other tires are offered as Evolution or Performance line, with different versions within each category.
David
River Grove, IL

[Tim Gavin]

Photo?

There should be at least one (if not two) boxes next to "Evo" on the sidewall.

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/images/pictures/schwalbe-rocket-ron-liteskin-2015-3.jpg

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[Garth]

 I gotta say, Schwalbe's explanation of their tire tech is like lawyer speak. Maybe Schwalbe knows what they mean, but they don't convey it to the public very well and it's always been that way despite all the changes they make to their website.  I have read more than a few people being sent the wrong tires by online retailers. If the customer happens to catch the error from a Schwalbe purchase they do correct it but other retailers is case by case.   So whatever you order double check to make sure it's the right one !

[Mark in Beacon]

Oh, sure, there are boxes--full of additional nomenclature, but as I said above, no mention of raceguard, liteskin, or snakeskin. And what to make of pacestar 3? I believe it refers to a particular rubber compound? All a bit much.

And here is the actual box:



As I surmised above, this would appear to be a fourth TB formula, assuming it is also actually available in raceguard, liteskin, and snakeskin. Or perhaps it is the newer designation for liteskin, which is the one with the least protection. Not sure if it was here or over at iBOB, a thread bemoaning the tire-naming practices of Compass. Ha. Easy as ABC, Tom, Dick, and Harry compared to Schwalbe designations.

[Tim Gavin]

Hmm, on Schwalbe's site, the three choices are Liteskin, Raceguard, and TLR/Snakeskin.  I wonder if yours is the TLR/Snakeskin, but the label doesn't reflect it?

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[sameness]

Per Schwalbe site, Art. No. 11600532 = 54-559 (26 x 2.10 ) - LiteSkin - PaceStar - Black

Jeff Hagedorn

Los Angeles, CA USA

[Mark in Beacon]

GoWould it be so hard to put that on the label or box somewhere? And then it says this on the website:

Tubeless Easy Snakeskin

Standard in our Evo tires! The SnakeSkin material assures cut-resistant sidewalls and extremely easy Tubeless conversion.

So my tires are Liteskin according to the catalog #, which makes them very hard to seal when going tubeless. Yet mine say Tubeless Ready, and apparently, ALL the EVO tires come standard with Snakeskin! Well okay then!

[Garth]

To add to the confusion though, the label says TL-ready, which is the previous generation term for tubeless ready. Now tubless ready is listed as TL-easy. Yes, the number matches the current version w/raceguard but since these are previous generation stock, it may or may not have been raceguard, and if it was raceguard the label should not be stating TL-ready!

[Garth]

And too only the liteskin model is listed @395g for the 26x2.1, so the label seem to fit in line with everything else written by Schwalbe.....confusing.

[Steve Palincsar]

Reading this thread makes me so glad that the only Schwalbe tire that I use, the Kojak in 32-369, comes exactly and only in one way.  And it is currently the only tire made in that size.  It sure does make shopping for tires for my Moulton easy.  It's a really good thing that it's an excellent tire!

[drew]

a funny thing happened while i was hemming and hawing over which version to get. i found some wtb 29er nanos for 12$ each. i have no doubt they are a lesser tire, but i think they'll do for the weekend. i wonder how many people schwalbe loses to indecipherability. 

[Patrick Moore]

But doesn't it come in wire or folding bead? At least, the 559 equivalent used to come with either. Schwalbe told me that both bead types had the same casing, though.

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[Mark in Beacon]

You spoke to Herr Schwalbe?!! Please tell him it's all Greek to me.

[Patrick Moore]

Just to one of his elves.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/28/2017 07:50 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
> But doesn't it come in wire or folding bead?

No, the 32-369 is folding bead only. As I said, no choices whatsoever.