Berthoud Saddles

[David Wadstrup]

I really like Berthoud saddles.  The Mente to me is the best saddle for very upright riding positions.  Mainly because I don't have to ride with the nose super high like I do with the Brooks.  I also like the Aspin for bikes with drop bars.  I've been wondering, though, what the Soulor/Galibier is like.  It's a narrower, racier saddle.  Does anyone here have any experience with this saddle?  Is it too narrow?  Noticeably less comfortable than the Aspin?

[oldmangabe]

I've been riding a Galibier for about two years on my randonneur bike. It took me (170lbs) quite a while to break it in. I almost gave up and swapped it back for the Aspin, but a combo of rainy and sweaty rides finally did the trick.

For me the S/G works best with bars below saddle, while the Aspin works slightly below, at, and above saddle heights.

I like both models equally. I decided to try switching to the Galibier because the bars on my rando are 2-3 inches below my saddle and I've come to appreciate less pressure on the backs of my thighs on rides over 200k. It feels similar to using a Flite or a Fabric Scoop saddle. Though the Aspin is a great all around saddle for me as well. YMMV

Gabe

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Just have to chime in since there isn't normally a lot of chatter around Berthoud saddles.  As much as I adore Brooks, the Mente is one of my all time favorites.  I have alt bars on all my bikes except for the Roadini which has Albaastache and the Mente works very well for me.  I like the long nose and sleek profile from the side.  Quality abounds on these saddles.  I've noticed the Mente is getting harder to find available.  Not sure if they are phasing it out?

[Collin A]

Doing a little digging (because I am looking to replace my brooks that has eaten 3 pants now), it looks like the Aubisque saddle is the replacement to the mente and brings the model more in-line with their other models. Still just as wide it seems.

https://berthoudcycles.fr/en/1371-leather-saddle-aubisque-brown.html

[Chris Birkenmaier]

Thanks for the info on the Aubisque!  I wasn't aware of that model.  My research shows its the same proportions as the Mente and the leather attachments seem to be like the upscale Vars.  Kind of a middle price between the two.  Trying to find a US seller is not easy.

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:

[Collin A]

You can order direct from GB, and with the current exchange rate it's actually cheaper to order through them than through a distributor. It will probably take longer to get the saddle, though.

[James / Analog Cycles]

For whatever it's worth, as a retailer, I sold Berthoud saddles for about a year.  I rode them, and really liked them.  For about 6 months.  Then I started to see customer saddles, and my saddles wear out prematurely. Like, in 6 months.  Or after one long tour.  Not because of rain, or rider weight, or too much saddle goop.  These were experienced Brooks riders who wanted something a bit better, and ended up getting something that was initially better, and then ended up being a bad investment very quickly.  I had my fingers crossed for these saddles, but like so many other non-Brooks leather saddles (Selle Anatomica has the same issue, etc), I found I could not continue to sell them in good faith.  I know some folks who still ride them and like them, good on you.  But at least 4 outta five that we sold did not last nearly as long as a 200 buck saddle should.  I don't know if this is the right thread for such info, but there it is!  

Caveat: if you have one, and like it, don't jump down my throat.  I am merely relating an experience based on selling 20 or so of these saddles.  If you have a different experience, based on riding a few of these, great, enjoy it! 

-james

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:

[David Wadstrup]

That’s interesting, James. Would you mind going into greater detail about your experiences? What do you mean exactly by them not lasting? Did they fall apart or brake or did the leather deteriorate? Just curious. I’m appreciative of your warning, and would love to hear more before buying one.

[John Phillips]

James,

     Which parts of your customers' saddles were wearing out? The leather, titanium or steel rails, or the plastic component, or...? This is the first I've ever heard of premature wear on Berthoud saddles.

   I wonder if Rene Herse Cycles sees the same problems?

   I have two and haven't had any problems. (knock on wood & fingers crossed)

John

On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 4:54:38 PM UTC-7, James / Analog Cycles wrote:

For whatever it's worth, as a retailer, I sold Berthoud saddles for about a year.  I rode them, and really liked them.  For about 6 months.  Then I started to see customer saddles, and my saddles wear out prematurely. Like, in 6 months.  Or after one long tour.

-james

[Collin A]

I am also curious about the premature wear! Was this recent or a while ago?

On Saturday, April 13, 2019 at 4:54:38 PM UTC-7, James / Analog Cycles wrote:

[James / Analog Cycles]

Re: all the follow up questions about premature wear.  The leather gets stretched and broken in way to fast.  They go from being hard as a rock to super broken in within a half a year, and then instead of just staying broken in, they start to break down.  In other words, the saddle becomes to hammock'd out to be usable.  I've personally had 3 do it, before I caught the hint, and had it happen on a number of customer saddles as well, again to the point that I stopped selling them.  Additionally the finish on the leather would crack and flake.  Again, I've seen a few that have lasted.  I am drawn to the saddles, and want them to work.  It's more comfortable, before they become unusable, than a Brooks, for me and many folks.  But I can't get behind an expensive product that wears out in a spectacularly short period of time.  

I have no idea of Rene Herse knows about it.  Obviously their success rate with them is high enough that they can keep selling them.  Mine was not, so I don't!  

-james @ analog cycles  

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

Och, James! How frustrating for you and all involved! May I ask what Berthoud's response and support as been?

My experience with my saddle, which I've had over a year, in extensive use, is it is by far my preferred saddle, though I've only a data point of one saddle. Prior to reading this, I'd figured I would use my Rivet saddles and then get Berthoud saddles once I needed to. Hearing your experience has me wondering about that plan, so knowing Berthoud's customer service record would be very helpful.

With abandon,
Patrick

[David Wadstrup]

That’s very frustrating and sad to hear. I wonder whether this is something new-ish. I have 3 of their saddles and haven’t had this experience. But mine were all purchased around 2015. May I ask if your experiences were more recent than this? Maybe it’s some sort of new treatment of the leather. I’d, too, be interested in hearing what Berthoud customer service had to say about it.

Thank you for sharing this info!

[Jan Heine]

James,

I am surprised by your experience that Berthoud saddles wore out prematurely. How many saddles were affected? If it's a small number, it could have been one hide of leather that wasn't as good as the others...

We've sold hundreds of these saddles, and amongst our team, we've got about a dozen in regular – often hard – use. Testing the Juniper Ridge tires was hard on the saddle - long, cold, wet gravel rides on a fender-less bike. I put a small saddlebag under the saddle to protect it as much as possible, and it's still fine. So are all the others we have in use, including one of the very first prototypes (No. 024, I believe) that I have used on my Urban Bike for 12 years now. 

The leather tops are replaceable – not just in theory by drilling out rivets and resetting them, but in practice using a simple Torx wrench – but we've sold very few tops, indicating that these saddles last as long as the other posters suggest. The only problem we've heard of is that the screws can loosen as the leather shrinks a bit with age. We recommend tightening them every 6-8 months. If you lose one, we sell the replacements individually, not just as a set.

Jan Heine

Rene Herse Cycles

Reborn in the Cascade Mountains

www.renehersecycles.com

[John Phillips]

James,

    Is it possible that the failing Berthoud saddles were waterproofed with the same material, and this had a hand in breaking down the leather?

Not throwing stones here, just really curious.

John

[Steve Palincsar]

I've got 7, some a year old, some around 10 years old.  I had one that went from brand-new-hard to very soft in a matter of 100 miles / 2 weeks.  They replaced it under warranty -- with the Ti rail model!  Other than that, I think I've had one that's needed serious tensioning.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[James / Analog Cycles]

The saddles were all treated with proofide, which seems to work pretty well on brooks saddles.  My understanding it's a leather preservative, not a leather conditioner.  Pencil eraser sized glob on the bottom, one time, then small treatments on the top as needed.  

Regarding a bad batch, I suppose it's possible.  I've seen it with tubes.  The leather looked great, super thick, minimal flaws. 

I'm glad so many people who have the saddles are having good luck.  I want Brooks to have competition!  Maybe Jan will send me another Berthoud to try out, ha!  

As a side note, FWIW, anytime I have written to Rene Herse/Compass to ask about a warranty issue, they have always hooked it up.  

-james

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 8:24:45 AM UTC-4, David Wadstrup wrote:

[James / Analog Cycles]

My experience as a retailer has been that asking manufacturers why their stuff is falling apart is rarely fruitful.  You mainly get denials, and statements like 'that's the first I've heard of it.'  I've seen this across frames, lights, saddles, rims, the list goes on.  I won't name names, but it's a common BS reaction.  In one particular case, I contacted a big company about carbon frames that were developing a creak in the bottom bracket.  They told me it was the first they'd heard of it, and told me to shim it with a beer can.  (press fit BB)  About a month later, the company was making pressfit BB's with a slightly bigger OD, so they wouldn't creak.  They made them in a few sizes, so as your frame wore out, you could stuff a bigger one in there.  An expensive beer can shim.  Anyway, I don't typically bother to ask a maker why something is failing.  I just stop using it.  And I would trade the saddle for a Brooks, if someone's wore out.  This was when I co-owned Gravel & Grind, so that was about 2-3 years ago when I was selling these.  Again, if you are using one and like it, great, keep at it!  I've tried every leather saddle out there, and although I really like many of the Berthoud features and the comfort, I'm sticking with Brooks.  

-James

[Jan Heine]

James,

Thank you for the additional information.

I believe Proofide contains neatsfoot oil, which breaks down the leather fibers. We don't recommend it, because it tends to do what you describe: Suddenly softens the leather and then has it break down completely. I haven't used Proofide, so I don't know whether it affects the leather of Brooks saddles (which tends to be harder) than the higher-quality leather of the Berthoud saddles differently.

We sell Obenauf's Leather Preservative instead, which just conditions and waterproofs the leather without softening it.

[Jan Heine]

Regarding the different Berthoud models, their less-expensive saddles are not rebuildable. They are intended for OEM bikes in Europe, and they use rivets instead of their custom bolts. At Rene Herse Cycles, we only sell the fully rebuildable top-of-the-line models, which also seem to have the best leather.

What I love about Berthoud is how carefully they select the parts of the hide to make the tops, whereas most makers simply cut as many tops out of a hide as possible. Leather is a natural product, and the knowledge of how to orient the saddle tops on the hide so that they don't stretch or become lopsided is a well-guarded secret. It has been handed down by generations of leatherworkers from the old Idéale factory, who then helped Berthoud set up their saddle production more than a decade ago after the original Idéale production ceased.

[Don Compton]

My experience with leather saddles is so different than this discussion. For years I was using Brooks B-17 Ti models and every one developed a hump that made them uncomfortable for even a short ride. I sold them all. I have two Berthoud saddles and have not experienced any of these problems mentioned. I have used Odenaufs ( recommend bt Mr. Heine) and after a fairly long break-in, they have remained very comfortable.

On Tuesday, April 9, 2019 at 5:24:45 AM UTC-7, David Wadstrup wrote:

[Drw]

This is not about berthound saddles, but I’m a little frustrated, so excuse the venting. I’ve ridden brooks for years. They were all vaguely comfortable and exceedingly durable. After reading the bikepacking.com reviews of the new improved selle anatomica, I bit the bullet , hoping for better than decently comfortable and lighter weight. What arrived was an incredibly loose saddle that needed 10 + full turns of tensioning and still feels loose. An instruction sheet that claims they have the longest rails in the business, oh but you can’t use the full length of them or they might break..and A claim of high durability, oh but make sure you get your butt off the saddle on every bump or it might break. Also I ordered their heaviest duty model. How is this so hard to get right?

[Collin A]

Just get one without leather ;)

From my understanding, most of those issues were of the older iterations of the X1/T1 (of which I own one) and the X2/T2 were supposed to have resolved those, is that not the case?

Collin

[Drw]

I got the h2 purchased 4 days ago direct from sell anatomica. The “2” versions were supposed to be the fixed versions. I can’t speak to previous iterations, since I never owned one, but I’m definitely gonna complain about this thing. Beyond it being super droopy (butt on seatpost during 1st 5 mile ride, after extreme retensioning out of the box) it just reeks of low quality everywhere. A 80$ brooks might weigh a bit more, but it costs half the price and will likely last 15x longer.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 4/15/19 11:03 PM, Drw wrote:
> This is not about berthound saddles, but I’m a little frustrated, so excuse the venting.

You're right, it's not.  And adding it to this discussion does a
disservice to everyone.  You should start a new discussion about Selle
an Atomica saddles.  That way, people interested in them will be able to
find your comments, and you won't run the risk of confusing people who
noting the subject line may think you're speaking about Berthoud saddles.

> I’ve ridden brooks for years. They were all vaguely comfortable and exceedingly durable. After reading the bikepacking.com reviews of the new improved selle anatomica, I bit the bullet , hoping for better than decently comfortable and lighter weight. What arrived was an incredibly loose saddle that needed 10 + full turns of tensioning and still feels loose. An instruction sheet that claims they have the longest rails in the business, oh but you can’t use the full length of them or they might break..and A claim of high durability, oh but make sure you get your butt off the saddle on every bump or it might break. Also I ordered their heaviest duty model. How is this so hard to get right?
>

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Monday, April 15, 2019 at 8:25:00 PM UTC-7, Drw wrote:

I got the h2 purchased 4 days ago direct from sell anatomica. The “2” versions were supposed to be the fixed versions. I can’t speak to previous iterations, since I never owned one, but I’m definitely gonna complain about this thing. Beyond it being super droopy (butt on seatpost  during 1st 5 mile ride, after extreme retensioning out of the box) it just reeks of low quality everywhere. A 80$ brooks might weigh a bit more, but it costs half the price and will likely last 15x longer.

I got a Selle Anatomica saddle years ago when they were first released to try, and it didn't really work for me (its sides were too wide for my fat thighs). However, I was under the impression that these are unlike Brooks or Berthoud saddles in that one should have the leather slung like a hammock. Thus, the leather being a bit loose and droopy is expected. If you've seen the original intro videos of the underside of the Selle Anatomica saddle when it was ridden, the swaying/flexing leather top clearly demonstrated this characteristic. Nevertheless, your butt shouldn't contact the seatpost mast at all, and especially after tensioning. Have you confirmed that you got the right saddle for your weight?

[Tom Horton]

this is about berthoud saddles. for what it's worth, I got one from James a couple years back (hi James) and have ridden it maybe a thousand miles, and no problems, great comfortable saddle. I weigh about 190 pounds. I have used only Obenaufs on it, have tensioned it slightly.  maybe there is something to that Proofide causing a problem.  I was surprised how fast mine went from stiff to broken in...but no sign it's breaking down.  tom h

[Drew Henson]

Just to add my experience, I have two berthoud aspins that I really like. One is almost a year old and one is only about 3 months in. The year old one is very very comfortable. I had a brooks b17 for about 8 years before that and it was fine. Plenty comfortable but eventually i couldn't get the tension where i wanted it.  

Before I splurged for the second berthoud I tried a selle anatomica and it took me one ride to figure out it wasn't for me. Not only is it way too "soft", but the relatively flat shape caused the sharp edges to rub against my legs. I also didn't care for the leather finishing.

[Mat Grewe]

Anyone have advice on how much and when to adjust the tension of a Berthoud saddle?  I have probably around 5,000 miles on an Aspin and it has been great thus far.

Mat Grewe

Driftless Wisconsin

[William deRosset]

Dear Matt,

The short version is "never," and "as little as possible," respectively.

As long as the saddle remains comfortable, isn't bottoming out on the rails, seatpost, etc, and isn't splaying unacceptably, don't think twice and keep on riding.

Best Regards,

Will
William M deRosset
Fort Collins CO USA

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

How does sizing compare between Berthoud and Brooks? The widest Berthoud is around 180mm, but their sides are much closer to vertical than Brooks', so I'm wondering if their widest models have similar sit bone comfort/measurements to Brooks with 20 or so more millimeters. I love my Brooks B68, and would like to find an equivalent saddle available for sale.

-Kai

[John G.]

Kai,

I have a B17 Select on my Roadeo and a Berthoud Aspin on my Dream, which have similar reach and saddle-to-bar drop. The B17 Select has far more miles on it, and is more broken in. The Aspin feels noticeably narrower. Not a bad thing--the overall fit and feel of the two saddles is very different. I'm happy with both.

[Steve Palincsar]

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/789460-brooks-select-champion-special-berthoud-aspin-leather-saddles-compared.html

http://oceanaircycles.com/2011/06/23/saddle-comparison-brooks-b17-swift-and-berthoud-touring/

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/DarMZOShnMw

[lconley]

I have bought 5 brand-new Brooks B-68 saddles in the last 2-3 years - two aged brown and three black (two from this site, one off eBay and two from Planet X in England - they had over 160 in stock last year - all gone now). The latest one arrived today (aged brown) and included a Brooks Maintenance Kit and Brooks saddle cover - it was mislabeled as a women's saddle in the ad, but is the standard B68 and not the B68S - I could read the side of the saddle in the photos. They are out there if you keep your eyes open and your eBay search on. The closest currently available saddle in size is a Rivet Loveland, I have two of those, a black and a honey - they are actually heavier than the Brooks B68 and initially much stiffer - the honey appears to have some sort of fabric laminated to the underside of the saddle. The aged Brooks are the most comfortable saddles that I have. Too bad the frames are not chromed like the Rivets - maybe I need to talk to Firth & Wilson. You can get new B-68 frames on eBay and have B67 leather put on them if all else fails

Laing

Cocoa FL

On Wednesday, April 17, 2019 at 5:03:05 PM UTC-4, Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY wrote:

[Collin A]

Tom, over the thousand-or-so miles did you ever have to use a saddle cover to deal with poor weather?

Everyone else, would you say a saddle cover made for a B17 would work fine on a GB saddle?

[Steve Palincsar]

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/789460-brooks-select-champion-special-berthoud-aspin-leather-saddles-compared.html

http://oceanaircycles.com/2011/06/23/saddle-comparison-brooks-b17-swift-and-berthoud-touring/

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rbw-owners-bunch/DarMZOShnMw

On 4/17/19 5:30 PM, John G. wrote:

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[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Thanks for the links Steve, found this-

"The answer is that the Berthoud has less suspended leather than the B-17. 

The Brooks B-17 is 170mm from the outside of the leather to the outside of the leather at the widest part of the saddle. The frame support at that point is about 155mm outside-to-outside, and it looks like there's about 140mm of "suspended leather" within that 155mm width. The other 15mm or so of leather is in direct contact with the metal support. 

The Berthoud that I have is 155mm from the outside of the leather to the outside of the leather at the widest part of the saddle. The underlying plastic frame on the Berthoud is a little wider than the metal frame on the Brooks, and it hugs the leather further in toward the middle than the frame does on the Brooks. It's hard to tell just how much would be suspended and how much would contact the underlying support once you sit on a broken-in saddle, but my best guess is that no more than about 115mm would be suspended. That's about what it is now with the saddle new, so that's the most it will ever be. Based on this it's pretty clear that the Berthoud will give you less than the Brooks."

So percentage wise, the hammocked portion of a Berthoud is less than a similarly sized Brooks. So Berthoud's widest, the Aubisque at 180mm would be considerably narrower than Brooks' B68 at 205mm.

Bummer. 

 

And Laing, thanks for the b68 acquisition tips! Recovering a sad and neglected b68 is probably in my future. As for the Rivet Loveland, I bought one last year and it was way too short, the nose was murder, good width though (I'm 6'8" with what seems to be a recycled horse pelvis). And if you would ever want to trade a ridable b68 for a perfect condition Rivet, look no further!

Thanks all

-Kai

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Sounds like the 180mm Aubisque might be the closest Berthoud to the 175mm B17. According to Steve's bikeforums link, it would have a slightly narrower sweet sit spot than the b17, with the Aspin having a much skinnier feel indeed. Thanks John

-Kai 

[Steve Palincsar]

The Aspin is more like the Team Pro than the B.17.  And it feels much narrower between the thighs than a B.17 does.

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[Tom Horton]

Re saddle covers  i have a few and use them interchangeably on my brooks b17 and berthoud aspins  have never let my leather saddles get soaked

Sent from my iPhone

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[John Phillips]

Kai,

    I have a Berthoud Aspin on my AHH with Noodle bars, and a Vars on my Hunqapillar with Albatross bars. I know the numbers point to the wider Berthoud saddles being similiar to the B17, but to my sit bones and butt, the Aspin/Aravis saddles feel like a B17 select but more comfortable, and the Aubisque/Vars/Mente saddles feel like the B67 Select but more comfortable. The narrower nose with less flare between the thighs is also more with both Berthoud shapes.

And I only use Obenauf's to treat my saddles.

I hope this helps, but YMMV of course,

John

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Thanks John,
Do you find yourself sitting farther forward on the Berthouds?
-Kai

[John Phillips]

Hi Kai,

    I position my saddle so my sit bones are centered about where the widest part of the saddle is. I do shift back and forth a tiny bit when I stretch out or sit up straight and ride hands free. I am riding with larger pedals, with my arches centered over the spindles of the pedals, so I needed to lower my saddle 4cm and that places the saddle 1.3cm forward. My PBH is 85cm and my saddle height is about 71cm on Nitto S83 seatposts with the saddles all the way back on their rails.

Does that help?

John

[Tim Tom]

Can any of you who have ridden both the Aspin and Aravis on steel bikes with 40-50mm tires share if you notice a ride quality improvement with the Ti rails?  

[Bill Lindsay]

I own both the Soulor and the Galibier which are the same narrow upper.  The only difference between them is the steel vs ti rails.  My opinion is there is no difference in ride.  They are the same saddle with respect to comfort.  The Galibier is just more expensive and lighter.  Otherwise the two saddles are identical in my book.  If it's a premium build and you are sparing no expense and you can afford it, spring for the Ti rails.  If you'd rather keep that $75 for one more tank of gas, then the steel rails are just fine.  

the Berthoud site has a sale on the Soulor in the hideous "cork" colorway.  I've been wanting one more Soulor to deploy in my stable and displace a less-perfect saddle.  Maybe now's the time.  I could pull off the act to support an ironic ugly premium saddle.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Danny]

I've ridden both on the same bike with 700c x 44mm tires. I concur with Bill, I didn't notice a difference in the ride. That being said, I would still spring for the Aravis if I was flush with cash and it was for a special build.

Danny

Madison, WI

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[Timothy Tolls]

Bill and Danny - I appreciate your feedback.  Your suggestion makes complete sense.  Thanks!

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[Nick Payne]

On Thursday 11 April 2019 at 7:45:50 am UTC+10 Collin A wrote:

Doing a little digging (because I am looking to replace my brooks that has eaten 3 pants now), it looks like the Aubisque saddle is the replacement to the mente and brings the model more in-line with their other models. Still just as wide it seems.

https://berthoudcycles.fr/en/1371-leather-saddle-aubisque-brown.html

Actually the Mente, Aubisque, and Vars saddles all have exactly the same shape/size top. On the Vars and Aubisque, the top can be easily replaced by the end user, as it is held on with Torx bolts. The difference between the two is that the Vars is lighter as it has titanium rails, and the Aubisque has stainless steel rails. The Mente is cheaper as the top is riveted on and can't be replaced. I have two of the Vars and one of the Mente, and there's no discernible difference in feel when sitting on them.

The majority (all?) of the Berthoud saddles come in both Ti and steel rail versions. The steel rail versions are named after climbs in the Pyrenees and the Ti rail versions after climbs in the Alps.

Nick Payne

[Nick Payne]

p.s. I'm also in the "not had a problem with Berthoud saddles" camp. I have five, the oldest having been in use for seven or eight years, and they're all still going fine.

[Brian Turner]

I own both an Aravis and Aspin, and cannot differentiate the quality of the ride. I’ve had the Aravis for about 5 years now, and it’s doing great. I also own a Mente, which I use on my Gus. I got it second hand from another member here, and the nose rivet promptly popped on it. I reached out to Berthoud to see if I could possibly repair it, but they offered to send me a new one! How’s that for above and beyond service?? I’m still riding the broken Mente, and can’t tell that it has caused any issues without the nose rivet. I only use Obenouf’s treatment on them.

Brian
Lex KY

[brendonoid]

I'm in the Berthoud is overpriced crap camp. So bizarre that opinions vary so wildly. 

Mine (an Aubisque) was so soft (I never used anything on it out of the box) it sagged after the first dry 100km I rode it. Worst of all the plastic structure cut across the centre of where your sit bones go. so the leather had a hard line worn into it, behind the line was rock hard plastic I could sit on and in front of it was too soft leather that sank me forward and had me riding 100% perineum. I've since tensioned it excessively, punched and laced it and filed the plastic back to a reasonable position and been able to ride it on shorter rides reasonably comfortably. Unfortunately the filed back plastic is a crucial structural element and now has too much flex, leading to the leather getting a nasty ridge down the centre. I suspect I'll get a few hundred more kms before it is rendered completely unridable

But Dang.

Shipping from France was super quick though.

[Cormac O'Keeffe]

Love mine. I've treated it very badly for about 15 years but it's still fine