Aggressive cycling pack and I slipped up today

[Jay LePree]

Hi group,

I am writing to ask how you would have handled this and to get a bad action off my chest.  Today, I was coming home with some baked goods after my ride in Nyack, NY on my Rambouillet, set up with a big saddle bag..Clearly not a race type looking bicycle.  I was on a road with a narrow shoulder and riding near the white line.  I saw a pack of cyclists bearing down on me, maybe at least 20 strong.  My first mistake was to ride inside the white line instead of taking the lane, but then again, I was not sure how they would react and did not want to cause a pile up.  They passed me without any warning and were perhaps 6 inches away from me.  There was a sewer drain in front of me.  Rather than move toward the center of the road to allow me to avoid it, they ran me right into it.  I was able to slow enough to get over it.  (One of those sunken-in type drains with oval holes, not bicycle friendly.)  As all this was proceeding, the combination of surprise, fear of dumping the bike, and just consternation that a group of cyclists would treat a fellow cyclist like this, I said, quite clearly...A**h*les.  (How hard would it have been to move to the center of the road? How hard would it have been to alert me to their presence.)  It was dumb move on my part.  Not taking the lane and then allowing my emotions to get the best of me.  (Nothing happened after that....fortunately, they were too much into their ride and keeping pace that no one stopped or challenged me back.)  I confession is in order for today I guess.

It is an unfair question as this group was not there, but would you have taken the lane?  Would you have trusted them to react accordingly?  If I had more warning, I would have stopped and dismounted an went onto the sidewalk until they passed;  however they really were moving.  I saw them in the distance in my rearview mirror, and the then they were on top of me. 

Jay,

Demarest, NJ

[Patrick Moore]

Jay -- I think safety for a cyclist requires that you be somewhat aggressive - aggressive in ensuring the rights that keep you out of danger, such as taking a lane. Yes, I would have taken the lane and, further, if someone crowded me, I'd have crowded back -- this last action would be supererogatory, and just a way to relieve my feelings. And, with a heavy-ish bike and a load, you have the advantage. But however you feel about that, the lane is a very definitely yes.

I've been crowded before -- very rarely, I'm glad to say -- jerks who get annoyed when I pass them or seem to them to be riding to fast. My own reaction has been, "Bring it on, boyo!" (It's never women who do this, IME.)

On the other hand, to give this pack the benefit of the doubt, their omission may have been due simply to their focus in staying with the group and "not personal."

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[Steve Palincsar]

I think I'd try to take it a bit farther, see if it would be possible to identify the club running the ride, and contact the club leadership and voice your complaints.  What that group did was irresponsible and unsafe, and they need to be called out for it.  If you can track them down, a face to face meeting wouldn't be out of order.  It is just a matter of luck that they didn't cause you to crash, which in turn would have caused their entire pelotoon (i.e., a peloton made up of clowns and cartoon characters) to crash.

I had a similar situation a few years ago, when a local racing club ran rides on the local bike trail 50 strong, taking both lanes and forcing oncoming traffic off the path.  What set me off was when they hit a construction zone at a bridge and by taking both lanes at the spot where the trail was narrowed by those orange and white barrels they use in safety zones caused a commuter riding in the opposite lane to crash.  It was easy to identify them, they were all wearing their velo club kit, and I looked them up on the internet and wrote their president.  I never heard back from them, but the mass rides on the bike trail stopped permanently.

[jeffrey kane]

Jay, it sounds like you did the right thing (getting to the right). I always remind myself to do the same in that I know that there's always going to be someone (or something) looking to go faster. Unfortunately, in this case, you came up on the obstacle of the sewer grate -- but if you didn't see it coming you can almost rest assured neither did they. I do the majority of my riding around the same area you're describing and I'd say that while there are tons of "pack riders" I wouldn't characterize them as deliberately malicious. I think it's fair to say that if they were hammering, (which, is kind of a right, really) -- then your experience was more just a confluence of bad luck and timing than anything else. As for your demonstrative reaction-- you can cut yourself some slack for that too --'cause I'm quite certain we've all been guilty of something similar …

[Deacon Patrick]

I can't speak to being passed by a peloton, but my default is to take the lane. It makes me visible, is clear of debris and obstacles (at least more than the shoulder), and I am more visible and always treated as traffic when I do (even if people aren't happy that I'm traffic).

With abandon,

Patrick

[ted]

When I hear the phrase "take the lane" it brings to mind moving well into the lane, perhaps to the middle, to discourage or prevent cars from "sharing the lane" with the rider. In the situation that Jay describes I think doing that would be unwise. Most likely it would have resulted in his being swamped on both sides. Riding on or just to the left of the fog line however, would be much better than riding on a shoulder with obstructions in it.

[Lungimsam]

Take that lane! Just take it! :)

If there are no cars, I'm riding in the lane, unless it is a huge shoulder in good condition. So I would have kept my lane on a road with a tiny shoulder, and the peloton could go around or follow behind. They can choose which to do based on being responsible for their own safety.

Being responsible for my own safety:

I have been trapped on, and dangerously bounced around on, and ridden off of,  thin shoulders too many times to let it happen if I can avoid it. It is dangerous because you have no out if the shoulder becomes dilapidated or a grate comes up, as you encountered. So no cars around? I'm in the lane. Unless it is a wide shoulder in good condition. I monitor for upcoming traffic in rear view mirror. But they have to go around me or follow behind before I will cower in the gutter to be polite. It is just too dangerous on a tiny/non-existent shoulder. I try to take neighborhood routes and routes with wide shoulders when I can. But sometimes you have to run the gauntlet.

What you did right: You rode a Rambouillet. Definitely the right call.

What you did really right: You have a heart of repentance and introspective intelligence enough to know that verbally abusing them was wrong and I think it is wonderful that you are repentant about that and willing to change in the future.

What they should have done: Extended the common courtesy and love of their fellow human by showing concern for your safety to alert you of their passing. Then they should have passed, leaving you ample space to be safe (three feet, by law, in my state). They failed on both accounts, but may also have been subject to the bad judgement that comes with fatigue, etc. But that would have to be some serious fatigue, like they were on their 150th mile or something.

[Lungimsam]

When I sat take the lane I don't mean to block the lane, I just mean don't ride on the shoulder but ride inside the lane, even if just to the left of the fog line (on USA roads). Just as long as you are in the lane and not on the shoulder.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/22/2016 11:36 AM, Lungimsam wrote:

When I sat take the lane I don't mean to block the lane, I just mean don't ride on the shoulder but ride inside the lane, even if just to the left of the fog line (on USA roads). Just as long as you are in the lane and not on the shoulder.

Usually when people say "take the lane" they mean ride dead smack in the middle of it, to prevent motor vehicle traffic from coming around you.  Quoting the Wikipedia:

Lane control

Lane control is the practice of a cyclist controlling a lane (also known as "using the full lane", "taking control of the lane", "taking the lane" or "claiming the lane") when traveling near the center of a marked travel lane. Controlling the lane normally precludes passing within the same lane by drivers of motor vehicles, while being positioned near a lane edge usually encourages such passing—even when it is hazardous to cyclists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling#Lane_control

[Lungimsam]

Oh it definitely means controlling the lane so no one can pass, too. I just mean that for my comment above, "take the lane" just means to stay in the lane and not on the shoulder. I should have used a different phrase for clarity.

Nice call to contact the club riders' president, Steve. Any club should be courteous to others, if for no other reason than giving the club a good name in the eyes of the community. Glad they stopped their mass rides on the trail. 

[Patrick Moore]

"Pelotoon" -- good one. 

This roadie attitude -- I don't know if it is arrogance, stupidity, or mere blithe ignorance -- affects other riders in other ways, too. A few years ago I was riding north on one of the main arteries, a 4 lane with turn lanes, entering the bedroom community of Rio Rancho adjacent to ABQ; as I came to the T intersection with RR's major E-W artery, I pulled into the rightmost left turn lane, leaving the curbside bike path and clearing the right turn lane. As I was in the middle of my lane waiting for the light, a man in a big white pickup pulled into the right turn lane and, just before turning, yelled, "I hate bicyclists!"

He turned, but he saw me waving him over, and after the light changed and I crossed, he did a U turn and came back to me. (I strategically placed myself and bike near a light pole.)

But we had what ended up as a friendly conversation. It appeared that he lives in the East Mountain area, with narrow roads often clogged by weekend cyclists 2 abreast. I explained to him that it made no more sense to label motorists because of a few idiots in cars, than to label all cyclists because of a few clueless roadies. (I've noticed more than once that some roadies, at least, have very poor traffic riding skills.)

At any rate, we parted amicably, and, I hope, with at least one driver having a more open mind toward cyclists in general.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/22/2016 03:03 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:

"Pelotoon" -- good one. 

This roadie attitude -- I don't know if it is arrogance, stupidity, or mere blithe ignorance -- affects other riders in other ways, too. A few years ago I was riding north on one of the main arteries, a 4 lane with turn lanes, entering the bedroom community of Rio Rancho adjacent to ABQ; as I came to the T intersection with RR's major E-W artery, I pulled into the rightmost left turn lane, leaving the curbside bike path and clearing the right turn lane. As I was in the middle of my lane waiting for the light, a man in a big white pickup pulled into the right turn lane and, just before turning, yelled, "I hate bicyclists!"

He turned, but he saw me waving him over, and after the light changed and I crossed, he did a U turn and came back to me. (I strategically placed myself and bike near a light pole.)

But we had what ended up as a friendly conversation. It appeared that he lives in the East Mountain area, with narrow roads often clogged by weekend cyclists 2 abreast. I explained to him that it made no more sense to label motorists because of a few idiots in cars, than to label all cyclists because of a few clueless roadies. (I've noticed more than once that some roadies, at least, have very poor traffic riding skills.)

[Jay L]

Thanks everyone. Yes, I will start to ride in the lane, particularly when there are no cars around. At the very least, this action would have made the pack give me some space.

It is strange that I have had a near miss with a truck and one with a car. Neither seemed to stir up emotions as much as this incident.

Thanks again for your thoughtful responses.

Jay
Demarest, NJ

Confession done by the way!

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[Garth]

     While you can take it as personal as you wish Jay .... it isn't personal :) 

   Everyone is "just riding" in their own way .  All are "just being" themselves in their own way.

 I ask myself ... "With what absolute foundation(if a foundation ain't absolute it ain't no foundation at all) is there for I or anyone to place myself or anyone above or below anyone else ? "

          Sorry  . . .  I know none . Absolutely none.  
  
  I just ride ... sometimes I just take the lane .  .  .  sometimes I just yield the way .  . . . sometimes who's to say just what line to take ?  All the time I just get there in peace :)   Go figure

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/22/2016 03:32 PM, Garth wrote:

     While you can take it as personal as you wish Jay .... it isn't personal :) 

   Everyone is "just riding" in their own way .  All are "just being" themselves in their own way.

 I ask myself ... "With what absolute foundation(if a foundation ain't absolute it ain't no foundation at all) is there for I or anyone to place myself or anyone above or below anyone else ? "

          Sorry  . . .  I know none . Absolutely none.  

Well, for boats there's this: don't get much more of an absolute foundation as the Coast Guard's Navigation Rules.  And there are similar rules for vehicles, although not quite as comprehensive and detailed, but equally authoritative.

[ted]

for one who writes "... I know none. Absolutely none." Garth just writes a lot.

[Jon in central Colorado]

Jay,

If those guys were in a pace line maybe a double pace line... Half those guys are just concentrating to hang on to the pack, the other half are watching the rear wheel that is 6" from their front wheel. I'm sure they didn't mean to make you uncomfortable.

Jon

[Michael Hechmer]

I'm sorry about your experience.  I wish we lived in a world where basic civility could reliably produce a like response.  In general I am willing to deal with the negatives without giving up my choice to be civil.... but

From my long past racing brain.  It's not a lane, it's a line.  In racing a rider takes a line and those behind him are expected to respect that line.  They can pass on the left or the right but trying to force a rider off his line is foul play.  Having gone past a rider, it is acceptable to cut in front, even if it forces someone else to slow down.  It is analogous to taking a lane in traffic.  From the racers point of view, you took a line to the right and you became responsible for whatever might be in that line -sewer grates, potholes, debris, whatever.  So... the expected strategy is that the rider in front will take and hold the line he considers most advantages to himself.  Unfortunately you chose kindness & civility, which have no space in a racers brain.  When riding on the local roads in Vt.,  I typically take a line just to the left of the fog line.  This forces cars and racers to move to the left to pass me and if they don't give me enough space, I have room to my right to find safety.

blessings,

michael

[Jay L]

All,  Thanks.....this is a really good lesson for me, and good advice from the group.  I guess I got stuck on...if a car..oh well....typical...though honestly atypical. (I commute with shirt and tie most days, so I think cars give me extra space.)  I was surprised that it was cyclists, and moreover I read  into the fact that it was not a race.  It was me trying to get home, and they trying to....hammer...for what? a cup of coffee?  for socks...for a bragging rights of I beat you to sign?  I was not part of their deal.  I did not wish or want to become one.  I just wanted to get home.  I suspect, if I did move into their line and caused a pile up, I would have been considered the bad guy.  I have the proud badge....ride your bike and don't be an ass.  That is what I abide by. 

All good.  Now I know,  look out for cars, trucks, tigers, bears and oh my....pacelines.

Peace to all, and unless therapeutic, no need to continue this thread,

Jay,

Demarest, NJ 

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[Mark in Beacon]

As someone who has done some of the very first "Muffin Rides" from NYC to Nyack and the Runcible Spoon, way before they put in all that bicycle parking, before STI, before carbon, I will say that the pack that went past you was more than likely not being malicious at all. None of them has an interest in going down, especially on a training ride. If they were experienced, they would have called out your presence at some point, which they may have done before you were in earshot. One theory with approaching a slower, burdened rider at speed is to not alert them, the idea being if you do, you may startle them into your path--"your" in this case being the lead riders and the 18 cyclists traveling at 27mph directly on the wheel.

Generally, with a more experienced rider in the lead, they would glance back well in advance, and with coast clear, take the lane for the group, giving you a wide berth. As someone else pointed out, when you moved to the right, they took that as you acknowledging their presence and they more or less held their line. If some of them really came as close as six inches, that's borderline not very nice. I think the noise of all those spinning gears, the wind, the mass of bodies, the length, can make being passed by a pack more unsettling than being passed by a car, which obviously is a much more common occurrence. That many in a pack that fast probably not all from one club, though.

On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 9:26:15 AM UTC-4, Jay LePree wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

That says to me racers have no business being out on the public roads.

[Mark in Beacon]

I think we're getting into generalizations here. Car drivers, recreational cyclists, long-distance riders, truck drivers, pedestrians, competitive cyclists out training--there are of course bad apples in every bunch. Maybe I'm lucky, but most of the racers I've ridden/trained with on public roads are conscientious and careful around slower riders. I've seen more errant moves when riding with a more mixed "club" group.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Hopefully you could see the grate in the distance and I would start gesturing at the obstacle on your right and constantly yell grate and start leaning left to move away from the obstacle.  All roadies would understand what is happening and give you space.  Lean to the left without moving to the left to create space and then start sliding over.

Certainly very easy to get intimidated, especially if the speed differential is great.

Toshi

[Deacon Patrick]

I've seen the Olympic Center peloton a few times out riding, but always cross current to me (I'm going up as they go down, or vice-versa). I've wondered what it would be like to pass them, er, for them to pass me. Grin.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Ron Mc]

I vote with the omission club rather than commission.  They're nose down and locked into their neighbors.  Your best defense is long-distance anticipation of what's ahead, holding the white line or wider and forcing them to think and eventually pass.  The good news is, you only have to make the leaders think, and the herd will follow.  

[IanA]

Group riders tend to lose independant perspective. I think it comes from the sheer amount of concentration when riding at speed in a tight pack and also just trying to keep up. It the lead rider went wide around you, the pack would probably have snaked out and given you room.

Taking the lane is a good idea until it's not. I have been rear ended at speed, but that was in Bolivia.

I now live in oil country (Alberta Canada) and there is aggression towards cyclists (also towards runners, walkers, dogs and all other traffic). 95% of the time I take the lane, but I'm not too proud to get off the road entirely, especially in low light or icy conditions, or if I see an oversize load coming up behind.

On reading your account, clearly taking the lane would have been safer than riding the gutter, but I'm wondering if the safest thing would have been to remove yourself from the road altogether until the pack passed. Depends how much reaction time you had - if you only had a micro-moment to make a decision, reflexes would take one into the gutter.

Your angry words may have penetrated a couple of ears on the ride and I suspect that'll give those ears pause when it comes to disregarding another human's safety when out riding in future.

Ian A/Canada.

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I concur. Furthermore, you have to understand that the riders behind you can't really see what's in front (the drain), until they passed you. By then, the line is established and following riders won't know this from that. By riding your own (safe) line, you would have assured that the peloton went around you to your left; by choosing a line to the drain, you unknowingly and unfortunately contributed to the situation. It's all about knowing the predictable behaviors of group riders and how to behave in that context. Don't worry about them crashing into you. No competent peloton does that.

I further believe that the hostility shown here towards riders in a group to be undeserved. Sure, there are idiot riders (just as there are idiot drivers), but the peloton as described was merely doing its predictable thing.  Although it may appear otherwise, no one in the peloton was looking to crash that day and intimidating some other cyclists was probably non-existent on their To-Do list. It's also my experience that riders not accustomed to group rides tend to be surprised by what experienced group riders will consider ample space, and 2 feet of space can feel like 6 inches.

If you really want to establish space in context of a peloton, ride unpredictably (e.g., not in a straight line). Lead riders will see that before passing you and should give you plenty of space then. :)

(Am I really typing this in a Unracer group?)

[ted]

On a slight tangent, I think its too bad that the value of doing bump and touch drills gets so little (if any) attention outside of racing oriented cycling. Things we'd rather didn't do happen, and when they do it can help to have developed skills for dealing with them ahead of time.

[Mark Guglielmana]

#1 rule in a training paceline is whoever is at the front is in charge of the safety of everyone else following. That's what I was taught decades ago. Many, if not most of us have either pointed out potholes and glass, put your open palm facing backwards on your butt to indicate a stop ahead, etc. That's the lead rider's job, and the signal is paced down the line. Swerve to miss some crap on the road at the last minute and you'll have a bunch of people behind you swearing like sailors. No grabbing the brakes, no standing on the pedals, smooth pedalling only. 

If you're coming up on a slower rider, and you're passing on the left, you stick your right hand out and point forward to indicate rider ahead. 

As many have pointed out, everyone else is just focused on that rear wheel less than a foot ahead. The person that screwed up was whoever was doing a pull at the front. It takes focus and practice to do it right. A good peloton takes short pulls, so you've got to be ready when you're "on deck" and start focusing on what's ahead of the rider in front of you. 

[Lungimsam]

I know it must be fun to gain the speed of a paceline. But one cannot say they finished the ride under ones own steam.

Racers understandably use plines. But I dont get randonneurs using pacelines though. Comeradery. But seems it flies in the face of the self sufficiency ethic.

Ill admit that i am too chicken to pline and i think it is suicide to not look ahead while riding. Eyes locked onto the guys rear wheel? No human has reflexes enough to brake in time. Scary.

Plus, wouldnt you want to be able to say you did the ride under your own steam? Maybe thats not important to some. Maybe its not important.

[Lungimsam]

No drafting allowed in RAAM.

[Stephen Kemp]

These are public roads, aren't they? Anything that takes your concentration away from responsible cycling, driving, walking, etc is bad. No one (well, very few people...) goes out on the road wanting to cause a crash or intimidate fellow road users anyone but that can be the result if you act without due care and attention. I don't think there can be any exceptions to this, and we especially shouldn't be excusing people who want to play racers. What if it was a group of cars slipstreaming each other and barging others off the road - would that be excusable because "they were merely doing their thing" and we should have all predicted it?

Anything that makes a menace to others (drink driving, using a phone while driving, playing racers) on the road is surely something we should try to avoid.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/24/2016 01:02 AM, Lungimsam wrote:
> Racers understandably use plines. But I dont get randonneurs using pacelines though. Comeradery. But seems it flies in the face of the self sufficiency ethic.

They are, of course, only allowed by the rules to draft off other
randonneurs doing the event, otherwise it's forbidden "outside help," so
it's a group-against-the-outside-world self sufficiency ethic.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/23/2016 11:22 PM, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA wrote:
> I concur. Furthermore, you have to understand that the riders behind
> you can't really see what's in front (the drain), until they passed
> you. By then, the line is established and following riders won't know
> this from that. By riding your own (safe) line, you would have assured
> that the peloton went around you to your left; by choosing a line to
> the drain, you unknowingly and unfortunately contributed to the
> situation. It's all about knowing the predictable behaviors of group
> riders and how to behave in that context. Don't worry about them
> crashing into you. No competent peloton does that.

You have obviously never ridden the Seagull Century on Maryland's
Eastern Shore. There are competent pelotons, and there are pelotoons
made up of crazed incompetent asshats.

>
> I further believe that the hostility shown here towards riders in a
> group to be undeserved. Sure, there are idiot riders (just as there
> are idiot drivers), but the peloton as described was merely doing its
> predictable thing.

You could say the same of rats and cockroaches.

[Mark in Beacon]

A peloton is the main group in a bicycle race. It would be a stretch to refer to a large haphazard group doing a century ride together as a  peloton. That may indeed be a pack of asshats. I don't do events.

[Mark in Beacon]

This idea of staring at the wheel in front of you is incorrect. I was taught to look past the hip of the rider in front. You certainly don't stare at the wheel you are following. After some time riding pacelines or in a peloton, you develop an awareness, a kind of sixth sense of where you need to be in relation to the rest of the group. Of course, like pileups on a freeway, stuff happens. It could be a moment of inattentiveness, or an unforeseen obstacle. In the pros, it can be jockeying for position. In amateurs, nervousness and inexperience.

On Tuesday, May 24, 2016 at 1:02:19 AM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:

...i think it is suicide to not look ahead while riding. Eyes locked onto the guys rear wheel? No human has reflexes enough to brake in time. Scary.

[Jon Dukeman]

Must this thread continue?

"FRIENDS DON'T LET FRIENDS RIDE JUNK "....

[Scott Henry]

"Plus, wouldnt you want to be able to say you did the ride under your own steam? Maybe thats not important to some. Maybe its not important."

- Thats crazy, drafting is easier.   That's why people do it.   Bicycles, cars, runners.   Drafting works for a reason, you can ride easier, whether its for speed, for time or even to allow the tired out of shape rider to make it back home. 

As was stated though, don't look at the rear wheel, look at the hips.   Once you are in the groove you can accelerate, slow, rest, turn, get led out, anything, all without looking.   Its trust and teamwork.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/24/2016 09:49 AM, Scott Henry wrote:

"Plus, wouldnt you want to be able to say you did the ride under your own steam? Maybe thats not important to some. Maybe its not important."

- Thats crazy, drafting is easier.   That's why people do it.   Bicycles, cars, runners.   Drafting works for a reason, you can ride easier, whether its for speed, for time or even to allow the tired out of shape rider to make it back home. 

Easier, and also very much harder mentally.  I find the mental stress exhausting.  At least the god-awful screaming and shouting in pace lines warning of cars and gravel popularized by the AIDS rides seems to have gone out of fashion again.

As was stated though, don't look at the rear wheel, look at the hips.   Once you are in the groove you can accelerate, slow, rest, turn, get led out, anything, all without looking.   Its trust and teamwork.

Yes, and it can all go pear-shaped in the blink of an eye.  Somebody drops a water bottle -- that ended my penultimate ride in a pace line.  The way everybody scattered every which way - left shoulder, across the road, slam on the brakes - instant dissolve into chaos - was terrifying.  I pulled over and asked myself if the 5 minutes saved on the total ride time would be worth the six months (let's count the seconds, shall we? 26,000,000 seconds!) recuperating from a major accident and decided the risk was vastly disproportionate to the reward.  Then a year or two later, a neighbor cajoled me into joining the pace line she was in at Bike Virginia, and the aforementioned screaming ("Gravel, for the love of Jesus!" in an area where every road was chipseal, and there was gravel on every shoulder and in every crossroads) did me in once for all.

But I to agree, if you did it by sucking wheel the whole time, never took your turn pulling, you really can't say you did the ride "under your own steam."  That's a big issue on the extremely popular Seagull Century, a flat 100 on Maryland's Eastern Shore where many, many novices go to do their first century.  Pacelines there tend to be Hobbesian -- the war of each against all -- Pace Mobs and Pelotoons where you routinely see shockingly, even horrifyingly dangerous behavior and where there's a body count that makes me think of Bloody Lane and Devil's Den.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/24/2016 08:55 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
> A peloton is the main group in a bicycle race. It would be a stretch
> to refer to a large haphazard group doing a century ride together as
> a peloton. That may indeed be a pack of asshats.

Which is why I call them "Pace Mobs" and "Pelotoons". They certainly
are drafting, in Brownian Movement / Hobbesian War of Each Against All
sort of way.

[Peter White]

Yup. 40 years ago, when I was racing, training in a group of 5 or 6 disciplined riders was a lot of fun, and it was important to do it regularly, so that in a race the close quarters riding was comfortable. But now, in my dotage, I like a lot more space between me and the next guy. And besides, the good disciplined riders these days are 40 years younger, and way too fast for me.

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Peter White

[Lungimsam]

I rode the Snow Hill Seagull century ride and it was the quieter route with less attendance and pacelines. Highly recommended to anyone wanting to try the Seagull, if it is still the same. The Assateague Seagull course was scarier. Much more crowded on the roads and more pacelines.

I know people race and want to do pacelines, but if cars did that wouldn't that be reckless driving? Tailgating?

And, does the three feet passing law in states that have it also apply to cyclists passing cyclists?

[Steve Palincsar]

Absolutely. Two thumbs up for the Snow Hill route. I may do the
Seagull again, but I certainly won't do the Assateague route any more.

[Jim Bronson]

The law in my state says you only have to ride as far right as is "practicable".  Therefore I would not have moved over any more than was practicable, and definitely not over the white line unless there was a large shoulder with an assured clear obstacle free distance.

If they're racey types they can go around, I'm sure they're used to doing that.

On Sun, May 22, 2016 at 8:26 AM, Jay LePree <jayml...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi group,

I am writing to ask how you would have handled this and to get a bad action off my chest.  Today, I was coming home with some baked goods after my ride in Nyack, NY on my Rambouillet, set up with a big saddle bag..Clearly not a race type looking bicycle.  I was on a road with a narrow shoulder and riding near the white line.  I saw a pack of cyclists bearing down on me, maybe at least 20 strong.  My first mistake was to ride inside the white line instead of taking the lane, but then again, I was not sure how they would react and did not want to cause a pile up.  They passed me without any warning and were perhaps 6 inches away from me.  There was a sewer drain in front of me.  Rather than move toward the center of the road to allow me to avoid it, they ran me right into it.  I was able to slow enough to get over it.  (One of those sunken-in type drains with oval holes, not bicycle friendly.)  As all this was proceeding, the combination of surprise, fear of dumping the bike, and just consternation that a group of cyclists would treat a fellow cyclist like this, I said, quite clearly...A**h*les.  (How hard would it have been to move to the center of the road? How hard would it have been to alert me to their presence.)  It was dumb move on my part.  Not taking the lane and then allowing my emotions to get the best of me.  (Nothing happened after that....fortunately, they were too much into their ride and keeping pace that no one stopped or challenged me back.)  I confession is in order for today I guess.

It is an unfair question as this group was not there, but would you have taken the lane?  Would you have trusted them to react accordingly?  If I had more warning, I would have stopped and dismounted an went onto the sidewalk until they passed;  however they really were moving.  I saw them in the distance in my rearview mirror, and the then they were on top of me. 

Jay,

Demarest, NJ

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