Rivendell (Roadini) Geometry

[Jay]

I've been enjoying my first Riv, a Roadini, since getting it in February.  Just one thing I feel like I'm struggling with, saddle set back.

It's a size 57, I'm 5'11 and my PHB meant a 57 or 54 would work.  It came with the setback seat post and that put me really far behind the BB compared to my other bikes, so I got a zero offset post and that helped things, but I'm still running my Brooks C17 pushed 3/4 of the way forward on the rails.  Funny thing is my Salsa Fargo, which has a 73 degree ST angle, vs. 72 on the Roadini, running the same saddle, and less set back (also on a zero offset post).  I can feel the difference when I'm pedaling; on the Fargo, my pedal stroke feels really good.  On the Roadini it feels like the pedals are out in front and I'm over-using posterior chain in an unnatural pedal stroke.  I measure setback on both bikes and the Fargo is coming out as saddle 5.5cm setback from BB, 7cm on the Roadini.

Anyone else notice this?  I may try pushing the saddle all the way forward on the rails, then maybe set post up a bit, but wanted to ask this question first.

Thanks!

[Brenton Eastman]

On my Hillborne and Roadini I am running brooks B17 almost at the max fwd position. Not sure what to compare it to but both are super comfy. I also have 57cm (both bikes) but I'm 6'1"

[Jim in Mpls]

Is your crank length the same on both bikes?

[Brenton Eastman]

Yep. 170 sugino XD2 triple on both bikes. 

On Apr 27, 2024, at 9:16 PM, Jim in Mpls <indepthin...@gmail.com> wrote:

Is your crank length the same on both bikes?

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[Jason Noonievut]

Cranks on my Riv are 172.5, 175 on the Fargo, but my road bike also has 172.5 (5.5cm setback).

I still have room on the rails of the Riv, just have to change my saddle bag (to one without a quick release).  I’ll report back in a week or so!

Jason

On Apr 28, 2024, at 1:56 AM, Brenton Eastman <brenton...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Chris Fly]

sorry to say you may have bought the wrong size bike (esp if you put drop bars on it).. the Riv sizing recommendations are, and always have been, to put someone on the biggest size frame they think will work from what I can tell.. I'm sure that works for some folks, but it doesn't work for me.. Rivs are bigger bike to begin with, IMHO.. 

[Tony Lockhart]

Hi Jay,

Sorry to hear that things aren't working at the moment. Have you thought about getting a professional bike fit? Or perhaps making various adjustments and documenting them over and extended period time?

FWIW, I'm also on a 57cm Roadini with 170mm S!lver Cranks, Nitto 65 seat post, and Brooks Professional saddle (86pbh, 5'9", longer legs shorter torso). When I called Riv last winter, Grant mentioned that I'd be happy on a 54 or 57 Leo depending on how much exposed seat post I'd be willing to live with. In practice, I find that I need to push the saddle all the way back in order to get comfy. I'm surprised to hear that you're pushing it forward, but I'm guessing not all Brooks' are made the same. Like Brent, I've also got a Hillborne (mine is a 56cm frame from 2009; same saddle, crank, seat post as my Leo) and I'm super comfy on it. Keep in mind that I've figured out what works for me during the past 14 years of ownership of the Sam, and the Leo is very similar in size and riding characteristics. 

I hope you get things dialed in.

Tony

On Saturday, April 27, 2024 at 7:23:08 PM UTC-7 Jay wrote:

[Jay]

Thanks for the messages.

I still have about 15mm I can push the saddle forward, just have to switch saddle bags.

I've been between sizes before, always made the larger one work.  Smaller bike, not as well (25mm setback post and 120mm stem make for a strange ride).

I've had bike fits, as recently as two months ago; how I sit on a saddle always surprises the fitter and we push the saddle forward.

I've been on some 3-4 hour rides and it's pretty comfy, just need to make this tweak.

[Patrick Moore]

On Sat, Apr 27, 2024 at 8:23 PM Jay <jason....@gmail.com> wrote:

... I measure setback on both bikes and the Fargo is coming out as saddle 5.5cm setback from BB, 7cm on the Roadini.

There's the reason for the difference. I've always (well, since Grant taught me to do this 30 years ago) started assembly and fit with saddle height, setback, and angle, then, after getting the saddle in place, put the bar a more or less standard distance from and height below the saddle nose. I do modify  bar reach and height for bikes used off road but my body position is much the same on all my bikes even if my bar is higher but further forward.

Sometimes a more reward position can be more comfortable because it takes weight off your shoulders, etc, because when butt-back and bent forward sufficiently your torso muscles carry more of the weight. 

Of course, you have to decide what a good setback is for comfort (including weight off your shoulders, arms, and hands) and power and handling -- also, how you'll use the bike: see below -- but in my case bb setback is about the same for all my bikes.

Peter Jon White has an excellent article on bike setup starting with saddle setback: https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.php

... Now we get to what I think is the most important part of fitting a bicycle, the fore-aft position of the saddle. Once you get this right, everything else is easy. This position is determined more by how you intend to use your bike than by anything else. If you look at a typical bike, the saddle is behind the crank center, or bottom bracket. There's a frame tube (the seat tube) running from the cranks to the saddle, and it's at an angle. That angle partly determines the fore-aft position of the saddle relative to the cranks and pedals. That fore-aft position determines how your body is balanced on the bicycle. Your balance determines how comfortable you are, and how efficiently you can pedal the bike.

[Chris Fly]

I think the one thing that fore and aft on a spreadsheet (meaning the nose of the saddle should be xxcm behind the saddle based on xx leg measurement) is how heavy you are from the waist up.. the heavier your torso and/or head is, the further back your saddle will probably have to be to ensure you aren't putting too much pressure on the hands.. of course bar height can mitigate some of this as well, but we all are still, effectively, a cantilever when we are sitting on the bike and must account for that balance point.. I'm at the heaviest I've ever been currently and I assume as I lose body mass up top (where most men carry their fat), I will be able to bring the saddle forward a bit (to a point, of course).. Steve Hogg and Neill Stanbury (bike fitters, both in Australia I believe) are big believers in getting riding at a moderately hard pace on a trainer (or outside if you are a good bike handler) and gently swinging your arms back behind you from the hoods (or drops depending on fitter).. if you immediately start to fall forward, your saddle is probably too far forward.. if you can maintain your torso position (you might start to fall after 15-30 sec, core probably plays into this as well), you are probably in a good position.. I assume this would work with a Brooks-type saddle as well, but can't confirm..  **if you are running alt bars, I don't imagine this is relevant.. 

Here is Steve Hogg's take on it: https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/bikefit/2011/05/seat-set-back-for-road-bikes/

Chris, needing to lose some fat in Sonoma County.. 

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Be the Reason Others Succeed!

[Jason Noonievut]

Hey Chris - I’ve watched a lot of Neill’s videos.  I can ride on the road and take my hands off the bars comfortably.  Here the thing, when the saddle is far set back, I can do this, when it’s perfect fore/aft, I can also do this.  When it’s too far forward yes I would fall.  So this alone only tells you you’re not too far forward.  That’s been my experience anyways.  But I always try this.

This afternoon I spent adjusting the fore/aft, riding around and tweaking it until it felt good.  I ended up pushing it 7mm forward.  Still well balanced on the saddle, and pedal stroke fees better.  I then swapped the 70mm stem for an 80mm.  Feeling better.  Now I need a couple rides to confirm.

Jason

On Apr 28, 2024, at 4:54 PM, Chris Fly <four...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Chris Fly]

for sure.. I would guess if you can swing your arms back and have no feeling of falling forward for a while, probably too far back.. but also, many folks talk about feeling your feet are "reaching" when the saddle is too far back.. I've read you can also tell by glute activation, but I'm not that perceptive to know about that one.. ;) 

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[Greg Kagay]

Anyone else notice this? Yes. I recently came to the same conclusion, the Roadini frame has more frame setback (see below) than the many (race-oriented) frames I have owned over the decades. I set up my Roadini last fall, partly with leftover components, including a 100mm Cinelli stem and #64 bars. With the initial setup I felt very stretched out. Thought a shorter stem and different bars would solve the issue. So early this year I replaced the Cinelli parts with a Nitto 70mm stem and Noodle bars, but still could not get comfortable on the Brooks B.17. Note, I have ridden a Brooks Pro on drop bar road bikes for over ten years. And I am comfortable on the B.17 mounted on my Brompton. But even with the new bars/stem I found I needed to consciously push myself back on the saddle to find comfort. The sweet spot was too far back relative to my pedals.

Just two weeks ago I replaced the OEM Roadini post with the Nitto S65 Crystal Fellow. The latter has 6mm less setback, by my research. Now, with the Brooks pushed fully forward, the saddle is in the ballpark of my physique. I would say it has moved from the warning track (with the OEM post) to about second base. I think a zero setback seat post is what I need to be at home plate. 

I am 5’11” riding a 54cm Roadini. (By Rivendell’s recommendation I would be on a 57cm but it does acknowledge you can ride down a size.) Meanwhile, in my 40+ years riding road bikes I have gravitated to shorter top-tube solutions. Seems I have short feet (size 42), short femurs, or both. However, I now know that top tube length is not all there is to it, keep reading.

Grant’s Z Factor article (see Page 19 of Rivendell Reader issue #13) speaks to the matter, unfortunately without explicitly highlighting the following insight: I have concluded that the rider should first dial in the saddle setback (a function of frame setback, seat post setback, and saddle rail longitudinal range/position). Only then should the stem length/handlebar reach be addressed.

And to your point, in my experience as well, the frame setback on the Roadini seems to be quite generous.

--Greg