Thinking out loud about a Rivendell road bike

[Patrick Moore]

I asked this on the boblist, but this bears more directly on Rivendell models.

I’m not ready to buy one yet, but longer (for me, >30 miles) or hillier (steep or long hills on distances over 20 miles) rides the bikes I now own are non-ideal, at least for a rider who is basically fit but 70 years old. I need, or would like, a wider range, more ratios, and a freewheel.

The wonderful 1999 Rivendell Benchmark Bike is handicapped by its fixed drivetrain and, even with the wonderful TF hub, I get only 1 alternate gear, 25% below direct/cruising; thus with the usual 76” direct the climbing gear is 57”.

The Matthews #1 — dirt road road bike — has the widest gear range, not surprising because it’s the only one that has a derailleur drivetrain; with the Soma slicks, from 96” down to 32”. But while it  rolls very nicely on the flatlands I generally ride it on, on steep hills either the weight or the admittedly non-sparkling Somas (despite their 360 gram weight for 51 mm), it felt rather like a pig on the steepest climbs last Sunday: too much effort expended for forward and upward movement gained. [I think to myself that the 1999 fixed gofast at 18 lb versus 30 lb might well climb as easily: much better on shallow inclines, not too much worse, although requiring standing, on the steep ones; but it’s the steep and long ones that worry me.

The Matthews #2 might be better: fixed gear, but 3 of them: 72” 65” and a stump-pulling 54”. But it weighs 26 lb and with the extra light RH Naches Pass 42s it just doesn’t feel as fast-running as the gofast. 

Both Matthewses were predicated on a more or less Rivendell-like handling; that was one of Chauncey’s principal remits; and the #2 is a geometrical clone of a custom Riv road so that’s all right. The Matthews #1 handles rather like a Riv road with the 622 X 51 mm Somas but obviously even quite light 29” wheels are not going to handle like very light 26” wheels with narrower tires.

Long, long windup. Question begins here:

Should I look at a Roadeo? I see that there’s a 14 month or more waiting period after a $1400 non-refundable deposit, but one might score a used 57. 

Used Riv Road?

Roadini?

Used Ram?

I’d probably use 32 mm tires, RH extralights. This will be a road bike for longer distances and hills; I have all rounders and dirt road bikes.

But I owned a Ram and while it was “not bad at all,” it just felt a bit staid even with Paris Roubaix open tubulars. I hear the Roadini is quite stout, and was even told once that I ought to bypass the Roadeo because with its  OS tubing, probably not thinnest-wall, it would probably not match my proclivity for light tubing. As I’ve said, I sold on m 2003 Curt custom because the stout tubing (so I assume) seemed always to slightly hold me back, this over 17 years of riding it.

Other suggestions? Several suggested LeMonds from a certain period. 

I think of getting a builder to custom-clone that 26” wheel 1999 road fixed gofast for a derailleur drivetrain; probably not much more expensive than a Roadeo or a high-end off-the-shelf model as I’ve got most of the parts for a build.

Thoughts, general as well as particular?

Again, just thinking out loud at this point.

I might just get narrower, 44 mm, RH extralight Snoqualmie Pass tires with TPU tubes on the Matthews dirt road bike. I have a 50mm+ knobby wheelset and don’t need 50s; the Somas don’t do well in sand, as it turned out. Worth the expense? 

Thanks.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Patrick Moore]

Those Somas: for comparison: On pavement I tend to use the same gears in the same conditions that I used for the RH Oracle Ridge knobbies; perhaps the ORs call for “1/2 tooth” smaller; while those wonderful fast rolling but wallowy 61 mm Big Ones asked for 1 tooth smaller in back, like the 559 X 28 mm Elk Passes. So perhaps with el Snoqualmies and TPU tubes the Matt 1 might not feel so piglike on steep hills?

On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 8:06 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

[While] The Matthews #1 — dirt road road bike — …  rolls very nicely on the flatlands I generally ride it on, on steep hills either the weight or the admittedly non-sparkling Somas (despite their 360 gram weight for 51 mm), it felt rather like a pig on the steepest climbs last Sunday: too much effort expended for forward and upward movement gained.

[Patrick Moore]

Damn. 1/2 tooth bigger.

On Wed, Sep 10, 2025 at 8:12 PM Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

… perhaps the ORs call for “1/2 tooth” smaller...

[Patrick Moore]

More thinking out loud. [Free writing advice from a professional writer, tho’ one who writes in a debased medium: write; get up and go away for at least 2 hours and do something else, and then come back to your composition and re-read it to observe all the obvious lacunae and faults; augment and repair. Repeat at least 3 times. Anyway.]

I’m at the stage where I no longer like working on bikes; I’d much rather ride them. So adding a fourth bike to my stable, even a very nice road bike, will have its drawbacks in that regard. I was happy when I whittled my stable down to 3 customs that suited my own kind of riding very nicely — short, =/< 30 miles, but agressive — I was surprised to find that Sunday’s 40 mile ride left me feeling the next day no different from one of my usual 20 mile fixed gear out and backs on a windy afternoon. Only, one of the whole points of this new kind of longer but slower riding is to go further afield, and this means longer and steeper hills; and at 70 I no longer feel like, or — to be honest, am capable of — grunting a fixed gear even with 25% IGH gear reduction up steep mile-long hills as I could do back when I was a youthful 60-something.

At this point in building castles in the air,  I’d prefer to clone the 1999 gofast in derailleur form since that bike is so perfect.

Musing out loud.

[Josiah Anderson]

I know this is the Riv list, but have you thought about a Crust Malocchio? I don't have any personal experience with the Malocchio but I've heard good things, including from a former coworker who had one and compared it favorably to classic race bikes. It would have lighter-gauge tubing than almost any Rivendell other than maybe your 1999 custom, I would imagine. Plus it's standard diameter tubing, which no recent Riv is. I have a different Crust, a Lightning Bolt, which I believe is supposed to have similar tubing (though with 650b wheels and low trail) and I would certainly say it pedals well. 

Josiah

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[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Josiah. I just looked at the site including the geometry and it looks promising, tho’ the 430 mm chainstay is at least 20 mm shorter than that of any road bike I’ve ridden in 30 years (my customs have ~45 cm cs). I note the 563 mm tt on the 570 mm st — good, and the 80 mm bb drop; also good, as are the 72.5 hta and the 73 sta, tho’ I’d prefer to reverse these.

I didn’t pay much attention to the mullet brake recommendations as I wouldn’t install tire wider than 32 mm; I’ve got other bikes for fat allrounder or dirt surface tires.

Can others speak about their handling compared to Riv road models? — Roadini, Roadeo, Ram, Rom, etc? Might the Malocchio be a bit more spritely than the Ram? I mean, still unerringly stable in a straight line, but turn in with a bit more alacrity? — With 32 mm tires on light wheels.

Alas, all sold out except the XL, but I will watch for these and seek out reviews.

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[Patrick Moore]

Very nice!

Topline cranks! https://ronsbikesblog.com/2023/11/01/2052/comment-page-1/

Who is “Ron”? The flowing hair and beard look familiar. I’m trying to remember a Romantic-era poem describing flowing locks and gleaming eyes ...

[Ben Miller]

Patrick,

Very curious you didn't enjoy the Ram as a road bike. I currently own a Roadeo, Rambouillet, and a Crust Lightning Bolt: all very great road bikes. But I'd probably put the Ram as my top road bike. I run 38 mm Rene Herse Barlow Pass's on both the Roadeo and Ram and it's absolutely perfect for me. They're functionally the same bike, but I prefer the extra mounts and DT bosses of the Ram over the Roadeo. But... I've also put way more miles on the Roadeo than any other bike ever, (shrug?)

The Crust Lightning Bolt has 45x650b UltraDynamico tyres (from the ever Romantic "Ron" :) It's a great road bike, and after getting it immediately inspired me to do a century as my 2nd ride. Rides great and is stunningly beautiful in person, but has I have the disc brake version and well, mixed feelings about that... 

Regarding Josiah's comment on the tubing thickness: It's exactly the same on the Roadeo and Crust LB as measured by Reed Kennedy. The Ram has an ever so slightly thicker tube set (8-5-8 vs the 7-5-7 of Roadeo/LB). I didn't have my Crust LB at the time Reed took his measurements, but my Crust LB is OS DT, not the standard tubing Reed has recorded for the LB he measured. I'm pretty sure this is consistent with older copy from Crust. And I'm pretty sure the Malocchio has similar tubing. All in all, I believe the Ram/Roadeo/Ligthning Bolt/Malocchio have very similar tubesets (but definitely differing geo's, at least the the 2 Crust offerings).

Anyways, I absolutely love all 3 road bikes, but would give an ever so slight edge to the Ram.

[Richard Rose]

It sounds like (?) you are looking for a road bike. How about this very Riv adjacent nearly new custom fillet brazed Nobilette?

Also available is an equally light & fast tigged Seven. Both available for not a lot.:)

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 10, 2025, at 10:06 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Richard Rose]

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 11, 2025, at 8:36 AM, Richard Rose <rmro...@gmail.com> wrote:

It sounds like (?) you are looking for a road bike. How about this very Riv adjacent nearly new custom fillet brazed Nobilette?

[Patrick Moore]

Richard: Thanks. Where did you see these posted? The Nobilette looks especially interesting.

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[Richard Rose]

Hi Patrick. Cut & pasted from another inquiry. Did not intend to highjack your thread.

Yes, both bikes are for sale. They have been in my possession for about two years. There is a story which I think is interesting & important. A long time riding buddy passed away a few years ago. He & I both live / lived near Toledo, Ohio. Bill was an avid rider & collector of nice bikes. These are the last two of six bikes he left in the custody of his two adult daughters who both live in Durango. At his celebration of life they both approached me to see if I might be able to find homes for these bikes. So far I have re-homed a classic Eddy Merckx, a vintage Masi & a magnificent Peter Weigle. These two bikes are the last of the really good ones. There is a sixth bike - De Bernardi winter warrior bike. It’s nothing special. But these two are very special. At this point both bikes are available & open to all offers. I will forward any offer to the daughters. I can handle boxing and shipping using a quality local bike shop but those fees are the responsibility of the buyer. I feel both bikes are far better than most new bikes & should fetch $2,500 - $3,000 easily. But, I have had zero interest and refuse to resort to eBay. They do not fit me & I do not ride road bikes any longer especially skinny tire ones. The Nobilette was built custom for my friend by Mark who remembers the bike well. The dealer & custom bike fitter was our friend & LBS owner John Drake, now of Tangent Cycles in Asheville, NC. Bill apparently had short legs for his height. I need to double check the measurements but I think both bikes are 56-57 seat tubes with 58-59 top tubes. The red bike is the only bike in the collection not Campagnolo equipped. It is a mix of Shimano Dura Ace & Ultegra. I have a ton of additional photos and Bill’s description of each bike. Anything I can do to facilitate I will do. The red bike is extremely low miles. Not a scratch & in perfect working order. Actually I never saw Bill riding this bike. The green Seven was ridden a lot but is also perfect. Price is really up to you. I know the daughters are more interested they go to someone who appreciates them. I am available to show the bikes if needed.

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On Sep 11, 2025, at 3:45 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Patrick Moore]

Richard: I’m glad you are disposing of these bikes for your friend. I’d certainly be interested, but it looks like my size would be the opposite of the Nobilette and Seven, as my “ideal” level top tube/fistful of seatpost size is 60 X 56 c-c. Too bad. I’d have been very tempted otherwise as $2.5-$3K is very reasonable for such nice bikes.

Thanks for the additional information.

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[Richard Rose]

You are welcome! They are both beautiful to behold & make me wish I were 20 years younger and of slightly different proportions. You should have seen the Peter Weigle. And that one fit me like a glove. It went to a great guy & back to its home town in Connecticut.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 11, 2025, at 6:06 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jim in Mpls]

"I’d prefer to clone the 1999 gofast in derailleur form since that bike is so perfect."

Why not have a frame builder convert that gofast to a geared version? That would be cheaper than than building a new one.

Otherwise, perhaps a Charlie Gallop? The drop top tube might be better for a "seasoned' rider such as yourself. 

You can forget about a short top tube and light springy tubing in a modern Riv though.

I was pleasantly surprised by the ride of my Roaduno, it feels a lot livelier than my tigged Roadini, but the size difference may play a part there-58 'Duno vs 61 'Dini.  But the RoadUno is still not as sprightly as my 531c Mercian or Columbus SL/SP Chris Kvale custom.

Jim in Mpls

[Patrick Moore]

On Thu, Sep 11, 2025 at 7:26 PM Jim in Mpls <indepthin...@gmail.com> wrote:

"I’d prefer to clone the 1999 gofast in derailleur form since that bike is so perfect."

Why not have a frame builder convert that gofast to a geared version? That would be cheaper than than building a new one.

Fixed gear riding is my first and last love, and I want to keep the perfect 1999 in its original, perfect form. A derailleur bike would simply be a temporary alternative.

I’d like to find the same unerring straight line stability and wholly unperturbed turn-in in a derailleur bike which means that looking for a Grant-designed bike might be the best way to go, whether an old Riv Road or Heron or the aforesaid custom copy of the 1999.

 

Otherwise, perhaps a Charlie Gallop? The drop top tube might be better for a "seasoned' rider such as yourself. 

You can forget about a short top tube and light springy tubing in a modern Riv though.

I was pleasantly surprised by the ride of my Roaduno, it feels a lot livelier than my tigged Roadini, but the size difference may play a part there-58 'Duno vs 61 'Dini.  But the RoadUno is still not as sprightly as my 531c Mercian or Columbus SL/SP Chris Kvale custom.

Jim in Mpls

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[Ted Durant]

On Wednesday, September 10, 2025 at 9:44:44 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

I’m at the stage where I no longer like working on bikes; I’d much rather ride them. So adding a fourth bike to my stable, even a very nice road bike, will have its drawbacks in that regard. I was happy when I whittled my stable down to 3 customs that suited my own kind of riding very nicely — short, =/< 30 miles, but agressive — I was surprised to find that Sunday’s 40 mile ride left me feeling the next day no different from one of my usual 20 mile fixed gear out and backs on a windy afternoon. Only, one of the whole points of this new kind of longer but slower riding is to go further afield, and this means longer and steeper hills; and at 70 I no longer feel like, or — to be honest, am capable of — grunting a fixed gear even with 25% IGH gear reduction up steep mile-long hills as I could do back when I was a youthful 60-something.

My experience, now in my "youthful 60-somethings", has been than total bike weight, within a range, hasn't made much difference in how I feel climbing steep grades. Even being a relatively light person, a few pounds don't significantly change my total package weight. It's really about having a gear that lets me ride at a comfortable cadence at a climbing rate I can maintain, on a frame and cockpit setup that puts me in the right position and (in combination with the tires) feels "lively". That "lively" feel is pretty elusive and, for me, not perfectly correlated with weight. My Heron road bike, the prototype first frame, has super heavy seat and chain stays, not especially light frame tubes, but a very supple fork. I love the feel of it and most of my climbing PRs are on it.

My approach to the scenario you've painted would be to find a used bike that seems close to what I think I want, ride and tweak it for a while to see if it really is what I'm looking for, then make a decision about spending more on something nicer/more custom. But, I still like doing all my own wrenching and enjoy the tweaking process.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI USA

[Chris Fly]

Morning Patrick,

Kudos to you for staying on a fixed for that long, I can't even imagine..I really, really like gears! :) 

Interesting on the tubing issues.. Lemonds are nice bikes for sure, but one thing I will saw from them is they are typically a "long and low" geo.. if that works for you, then great.. just be sure you find a good geo chart, which can be difficult.. you often need to find an older catalog that has that was more of a "build book" to get all of the numbers.. 

I guess my concern reading your concerns with tubing is if you've bought into the "Rivendell ethos" of bikes, meaning long chainstays, high bars, large sizes for fit (IMHO), etc, I think you may have trouble finding bikes built in this way with "lively" tubing unless you go custom or find a used custom.. I hope I'm wrong, but it just seems bikes build like this are often heavier/stout steel, like a Surley.. One bike I did have at one time that I really liked was the second iteration of the Salsa Casseroll (the blue one).. really good geo/design IMHO, beautiful bike, and just rode beautifully for me.. can't say if it was "Stout" or not, but I regret selling it.. they only made then 2 or three years, so might be kind of hard to find.. 

Finally, I would point you to the forum I haunt that often has some pretty nice, higher end bikes that will often have sanely designed frames.. ;) 

https://forums.thepaceline.net/index.php  this used to be the old Serotta forum.. 

Good luck and happy hunting!

Chris