Seeking advice on 650b wheel replacement and internally geared hubs
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Tyler
Jan 20, 2009, 8:57:30 PM1/20/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
I bought a used Bleriot some time ago that came with wheels made with
Sunrim CR-18 rims and they're unquestionably from the oversized
batch. I knew about the oversized rims before I purchased the bike
and decided the bike was well worth the price even if I had to replace
the wheelset. The wheels have been great aside from how unbearably
difficult it is to fix a flat.. so far I've simply worked through the
problem with brute force. However, yesterday I spent over half an
hour trying to just get the tire off the rear wheel and snapped a tire
lever in the process. I gave up and decided it was time to get a non-
faulty set of wheels... it's hard enough to fix a punctured tube at
home with these rims; I'd hate to have to do this on the side of the
road (which I've been spared, so far).
I know very little about wheels so I'm fishing for advice from those
more knowledgeable. The existing wheels are 36-spoke with Shimano
Deore LX hubs; there's a 7-speed Hyperglide cassette on the rear. I'm
a big fellow (6ft, 220+ lbs) so I need something that's going to be
strong enough for my daily commuting and light touring.
I'm thinking about buying a built wheelset from Rivendell. A set of
wheels built with LX hubs is about half the price of a set of wheels
with Phil "Rivy" hubs (w/ freewheel). I don't understand what you
gain by using the higher quality hubs, I'm sure a difference exists
but I don't know what that is. Is it worth the extra money and why?
Alternatively, I'm kicking around the idea of building a rear wheel
around an Alfine internally geared hub; I've always liked the idea of
an internally geared hub for my kind of riding and it seems alot of
folks swear by them for everyday riding. If I want to go this route
now would be a good time since I need to replace the wheels anyway. I
know that a few folks on this list have rivendells with this kind of
setup (having searched through the old postings), I'm curious to know
how those people feel about their shifting setups now that they've
used them for months or years since last posting.
Any input is appreciated, thank you!
Sunrim CR-18 rims and they're unquestionably from the oversized
batch. I knew about the oversized rims before I purchased the bike
and decided the bike was well worth the price even if I had to replace
the wheelset. The wheels have been great aside from how unbearably
difficult it is to fix a flat.. so far I've simply worked through the
problem with brute force. However, yesterday I spent over half an
hour trying to just get the tire off the rear wheel and snapped a tire
lever in the process. I gave up and decided it was time to get a non-
faulty set of wheels... it's hard enough to fix a punctured tube at
home with these rims; I'd hate to have to do this on the side of the
road (which I've been spared, so far).
I know very little about wheels so I'm fishing for advice from those
more knowledgeable. The existing wheels are 36-spoke with Shimano
Deore LX hubs; there's a 7-speed Hyperglide cassette on the rear. I'm
a big fellow (6ft, 220+ lbs) so I need something that's going to be
strong enough for my daily commuting and light touring.
I'm thinking about buying a built wheelset from Rivendell. A set of
wheels built with LX hubs is about half the price of a set of wheels
with Phil "Rivy" hubs (w/ freewheel). I don't understand what you
gain by using the higher quality hubs, I'm sure a difference exists
but I don't know what that is. Is it worth the extra money and why?
Alternatively, I'm kicking around the idea of building a rear wheel
around an Alfine internally geared hub; I've always liked the idea of
an internally geared hub for my kind of riding and it seems alot of
folks swear by them for everyday riding. If I want to go this route
now would be a good time since I need to replace the wheels anyway. I
know that a few folks on this list have rivendells with this kind of
setup (having searched through the old postings), I'm curious to know
how those people feel about their shifting setups now that they've
used them for months or years since last posting.
Any input is appreciated, thank you!
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Jan 20, 2009, 9:37:36 PM1/20/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
The LX hubs are a great value. Practically speaking, you give up
almost nothing by getting the LX hubs rather than Phil hubs.
Internal gear hubs like the Alfine have some drawbacks. The big one is
that they make wheel removal for flat fixes somewhat more difficult
than it is with a derailleur set-up. Since the Bleriot has vertical
dropouts, you'd need a chain tensioner, which can be another source of
headaches. Also, the Alfine doesn't work great in really cold weather,
which is an issue here in MN, but probably not in CA. And if something
goes wrong with it (which is rare), not many bike shops will be
prepared to fix it. Finally, these big gear hubs are on the heavy
side. By my calculation, there is more downside than upside.
almost nothing by getting the LX hubs rather than Phil hubs.
Internal gear hubs like the Alfine have some drawbacks. The big one is
that they make wheel removal for flat fixes somewhat more difficult
than it is with a derailleur set-up. Since the Bleriot has vertical
dropouts, you'd need a chain tensioner, which can be another source of
headaches. Also, the Alfine doesn't work great in really cold weather,
which is an issue here in MN, but probably not in CA. And if something
goes wrong with it (which is rare), not many bike shops will be
prepared to fix it. Finally, these big gear hubs are on the heavy
side. By my calculation, there is more downside than upside.
Tim McNamara
Jan 20, 2009, 10:31:29 PM1/20/09
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Jan 20, 2009, at 7:57 PM, Tyler wrote:
> I bought a used Bleriot some time ago that came with wheels made with
> Sunrim CR-18 rims and they're unquestionably from the oversized
> batch. I knew about the oversized rims before I purchased the bike
> and decided the bike was well worth the price even if I had to replace
> the wheelset. The wheels have been great aside from how unbearably
> difficult it is to fix a flat.. so far I've simply worked through the
> problem with brute force. However, yesterday I spent over half an
> hour trying to just get the tire off the rear wheel and snapped a tire
> lever in the process. I gave up and decided it was time to get a non-
> faulty set of wheels... it's hard enough to fix a punctured tube at
> home with these rims; I'd hate to have to do this on the side of the
> road (which I've been spared, so far).
It would cost you less to just replace the rims. CR-18s are
inexpensive; it would be quick and simple to just tape the new rims
to the old ones, loosen and transfer the spokes over to the new rims,
and true them up. Well, simple for someone who's got practice at
this. Tell us where you live and we might be able to recommend a
bike shop in your area.
R Gonet
Jan 20, 2009, 10:33:16 PM1/20/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
Tyler:
I have a Hilsen and I've been using internal gear hubs for about a
year and I would never go back to derailers. Here is where I disagree
with Jim Thill:
1. Once you learn the trick of using a 2 mm Allen wrench to rotate
the mechanism where the cable attaches to the Alfine hub, wheel
removal isn't difficult. You can go one step further and insert a
cable coupler (from Loose Screws) in-line and then it becomes easier
than removing a rear wheel with a derailer. I'm happy to share the
details with you.
2. I have used a Surly Singleator on this and a single speed build on
another bike with vertical dropouots and it has not given me a moment
of trouble. It's very nicely made. Shimano has come out with a
tensioner but it didn't work with my chainline and I didn't feel like
reworking it to use the Shimano tensioner. The Singleator is highly
adjustable with an Allen wrench, will accomodate almost any chainline,
and it's very nicely machined.
3. I don't notice any problems in cold weather, though I've not used
the hub below 40 degrees.
4. If something goes wrong, I think Jim is right that you will have
to send the hub away for repair, but I understand that they are very
reliable. They don't need any tinkering and adjusting them is so
simple compared to a derailer that it makes me chuckle every
(infrequent) time that I adjust it. That alone reaffirms my
commitment to IG hubs.
5. It's true that the hub itself is heavier than a derailer hub, but
then you don't have the cogs, front and rear derailers, shifters, and
cables anymore. I've never calculated the trade-off, but I don't
think the Alfine setup ends up being that much heavier than the
derailers. Also, you have indicated that you are a big fellow, so cut
back on the ice cream and cake for two weeks and you've saved more
than enough weight to make up the difference.
6. You know you can shift the IG hubs while pedaling, coasting, or
standing still, right?
About a year after I installed the Alfine, I came across a good deal
on a Rohloff, so I replaced the Alfine. The Rohloff is nicer but I
don't think it's so very much nicer that it's worth the big difference
in price. I kept the Alfine, which is built into a Mavic Open Pro
rim, because I still like it and want to use it on some other bike,
but after all this time I'm not so sure that's going to happen. If
you're interested in the wheel, contact me off-list and we can chat
about it.
Richard
I have a Hilsen and I've been using internal gear hubs for about a
year and I would never go back to derailers. Here is where I disagree
with Jim Thill:
1. Once you learn the trick of using a 2 mm Allen wrench to rotate
the mechanism where the cable attaches to the Alfine hub, wheel
removal isn't difficult. You can go one step further and insert a
cable coupler (from Loose Screws) in-line and then it becomes easier
than removing a rear wheel with a derailer. I'm happy to share the
details with you.
2. I have used a Surly Singleator on this and a single speed build on
another bike with vertical dropouots and it has not given me a moment
of trouble. It's very nicely made. Shimano has come out with a
tensioner but it didn't work with my chainline and I didn't feel like
reworking it to use the Shimano tensioner. The Singleator is highly
adjustable with an Allen wrench, will accomodate almost any chainline,
and it's very nicely machined.
3. I don't notice any problems in cold weather, though I've not used
the hub below 40 degrees.
4. If something goes wrong, I think Jim is right that you will have
to send the hub away for repair, but I understand that they are very
reliable. They don't need any tinkering and adjusting them is so
simple compared to a derailer that it makes me chuckle every
(infrequent) time that I adjust it. That alone reaffirms my
commitment to IG hubs.
5. It's true that the hub itself is heavier than a derailer hub, but
then you don't have the cogs, front and rear derailers, shifters, and
cables anymore. I've never calculated the trade-off, but I don't
think the Alfine setup ends up being that much heavier than the
derailers. Also, you have indicated that you are a big fellow, so cut
back on the ice cream and cake for two weeks and you've saved more
than enough weight to make up the difference.
6. You know you can shift the IG hubs while pedaling, coasting, or
standing still, right?
About a year after I installed the Alfine, I came across a good deal
on a Rohloff, so I replaced the Alfine. The Rohloff is nicer but I
don't think it's so very much nicer that it's worth the big difference
in price. I kept the Alfine, which is built into a Mavic Open Pro
rim, because I still like it and want to use it on some other bike,
but after all this time I'm not so sure that's going to happen. If
you're interested in the wheel, contact me off-list and we can chat
about it.
Richard
Dan
Jan 20, 2009, 11:03:43 PM1/20/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
Like Jim my experience with internally geared hubs has not been great
-- I know I may be in the minority. I have not run an Alfine I have a
SRAM IMotion 3 speed. Changing flats is more difficult and time
consuming. I have had some other issues that have cropped up that
have been difficult to fix. Finally, I have not been happy with the
winter performance. The hub does not work well in the cold, things
freeze up and it often won't shift. If I had a derailleur bike that
wouldn't shift in the cold I could at least manually move the chain
but with the IG I am stuck until it thaws or decides to start behaving
better. I am actually seriously considering selling my IG bike and
building up a crosscheck as a 1 x 8 for commuting and child trailer
pulling duties.
Dan Abelson
Saint Paul, MN
-- I know I may be in the minority. I have not run an Alfine I have a
SRAM IMotion 3 speed. Changing flats is more difficult and time
consuming. I have had some other issues that have cropped up that
have been difficult to fix. Finally, I have not been happy with the
winter performance. The hub does not work well in the cold, things
freeze up and it often won't shift. If I had a derailleur bike that
wouldn't shift in the cold I could at least manually move the chain
but with the IG I am stuck until it thaws or decides to start behaving
better. I am actually seriously considering selling my IG bike and
building up a crosscheck as a 1 x 8 for commuting and child trailer
pulling duties.
Dan Abelson
Saint Paul, MN
EricP
Jan 21, 2009, 5:58:19 AM1/21/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
I'm with Jim and Dan on this. After a year with an IG (Shimano Nexus
8 "red band") I ended up buying a second winter bike to be able to
shift easily in cold weather. Although that is somewhat offset by the
need for better chain maintenance as links get sticky real fast in the
cold.
Of course, if you don't live in a cold climate, then it's not an
issue. I still like my internal gear bike, but not as much as when
first converted.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
> > Any input is appreciated, thank you!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
8 "red band") I ended up buying a second winter bike to be able to
shift easily in cold weather. Although that is somewhat offset by the
need for better chain maintenance as links get sticky real fast in the
cold.
Of course, if you don't live in a cold climate, then it's not an
issue. I still like my internal gear bike, but not as much as when
first converted.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
>
> - Show quoted text -
fenderbender
Jan 21, 2009, 7:14:10 AM1/21/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
I've winterized the freehub on a set of wheels with lighter weight oil
after it kept seizing up. A friend told me his Rohloff hub
instructions recommend a lighter weight oil for the cold. Rohloff seem
to have changed this now with new all season oil. Wouldn't it be
possible to winterize Alfine/Nexus gearhubs in a similar way?
> > - Show quoted text -- Dölj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -
after it kept seizing up. A friend told me his Rohloff hub
instructions recommend a lighter weight oil for the cold. Rohloff seem
to have changed this now with new all season oil. Wouldn't it be
possible to winterize Alfine/Nexus gearhubs in a similar way?
>
> - Visa citerad text -
Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
Jan 21, 2009, 8:25:57 AM1/21/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
I should be clear that I think IG hubs are in general a fine product,
and we sell/service them at the shop. My main point in pointing out
the drawbacks is to highlight factors that seldom get mentioned by IG
fans. There are plenty of well known advantages, like being able to
shift while stopped or coasting, and a transmission that never gets
dirty. Richard's cable splitter idea is a good one, and we may start
adding these as a matter of course to our Nexus/Alfine bikes, but even
then I'd prefer to fix a flat on a derailleur bike with a q/r.
On the other side of the token, I think IG fans tend to overstate the
fuss and hassle of using derailleurs. Does this notion come from the
experiences of an earlier decade when derailleurs weren't as good as
they are now? I don't know. I do know that when we service bikes with
relatively modern Deore/LX/XT derailleurs (for example), the
derailleur is almost never a problem. The most common shifting related
repair is to replace some kinked or gunked-up section of cable housing
and cable, but that's just basic maintenance IMO, and IG hubs have
cable(s) and housing, too. For those of us refined souls who use
friction shifting, minor cable tension adjustments are simply
unnecessary - just set the limits and ride.
For chain tensioners, we have started simply resurrecting some old
derailleur, setting the outer limit screw, and running the chain
through it at it's most hyper-extended point. I think these work
better than most of the SS chain tensioners on the market. Of course,
when would-be IG users learn that they'll still need a derailleur/
tensioner, that usually kills the idea.
and we sell/service them at the shop. My main point in pointing out
the drawbacks is to highlight factors that seldom get mentioned by IG
fans. There are plenty of well known advantages, like being able to
shift while stopped or coasting, and a transmission that never gets
dirty. Richard's cable splitter idea is a good one, and we may start
adding these as a matter of course to our Nexus/Alfine bikes, but even
then I'd prefer to fix a flat on a derailleur bike with a q/r.
On the other side of the token, I think IG fans tend to overstate the
fuss and hassle of using derailleurs. Does this notion come from the
experiences of an earlier decade when derailleurs weren't as good as
they are now? I don't know. I do know that when we service bikes with
relatively modern Deore/LX/XT derailleurs (for example), the
derailleur is almost never a problem. The most common shifting related
repair is to replace some kinked or gunked-up section of cable housing
and cable, but that's just basic maintenance IMO, and IG hubs have
cable(s) and housing, too. For those of us refined souls who use
friction shifting, minor cable tension adjustments are simply
unnecessary - just set the limits and ride.
For chain tensioners, we have started simply resurrecting some old
derailleur, setting the outer limit screw, and running the chain
through it at it's most hyper-extended point. I think these work
better than most of the SS chain tensioners on the market. Of course,
when would-be IG users learn that they'll still need a derailleur/
tensioner, that usually kills the idea.
Seth Vidal
Jan 21, 2009, 10:53:17 AM1/21/09
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 8:25 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery
<thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I should be clear that I think IG hubs are in general a fine product,
> and we sell/service them at the shop. My main point in pointing out
> the drawbacks is to highlight factors that seldom get mentioned by IG
> fans. There are plenty of well known advantages, like being able to
> shift while stopped or coasting, and a transmission that never gets
> dirty. Richard's cable splitter idea is a good one, and we may start
> adding these as a matter of course to our Nexus/Alfine bikes, but even
> then I'd prefer to fix a flat on a derailleur bike with a q/r.
<thil...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I should be clear that I think IG hubs are in general a fine product,
> and we sell/service them at the shop. My main point in pointing out
> the drawbacks is to highlight factors that seldom get mentioned by IG
> fans. There are plenty of well known advantages, like being able to
> shift while stopped or coasting, and a transmission that never gets
> dirty. Richard's cable splitter idea is a good one, and we may start
> adding these as a matter of course to our Nexus/Alfine bikes, but even
> then I'd prefer to fix a flat on a derailleur bike with a q/r.
This just popped up on my blog feeds:
http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/2009/01/20/bar-end-shifter-for-shimano-nexus-alfine/
looks like someone made a bar-end shifter that works with the nexus
and the alfine.
-sv
JoelMatthews
Jan 21, 2009, 11:30:52 AM1/21/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
> Internal gear hubs like the Alfine have some drawbacks. The big one is
> that they make wheel removal for flat fixes somewhat more difficult
> than it is with a derailleur set-up.
The Rohloff designed for OEM drop out disc brakes at least has a handy
> that they make wheel removal for flat fixes somewhat more difficult
> than it is with a derailleur set-up.
little device where the cables meet the hub that snap on and off. I
guess I assumed Shimano would do something similar if not better as
the conventional wisdom anyway is Japanese companies do user
interfaces better than German.
I like the convenience of the Rohloff for touring, but do not tour in
the cold and have never gone to some remote area. (although I note
extreme conditions companies like Tout push the Rohloff)
On Jan 20, 8:37 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:
Larry Powers
Jan 21, 2009, 1:05:10 PM1/21/09
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I view this as two different issues:
1) you have the oversized CR-18 rims and find they aren't usuable
2) you want to try an internal hub because you think it might like it better.
I set my wife's Bleriot up with the exact wheels you described. I had a hard time changing tires in my shop so there is no way she would be able to change them on the side of the road. I decided to replace these wheels with the Weinmann ZAC-19 rims. I got lucky and found someone selling a complete set of wheels with Deore hubs. The hubs were a step down from the Deore LX but still good, I will eventually build up her Deore LX hubs with some Velocity rims for a set of bomb proof touring wheels.
The LX level hub and is what my bike shop recomended for touring wheels. At your wait for a touring bike you want 36 hole hubs. For an all purpose bike you might use a 36 hole rear and 32 hole front.
I have no experience with the internally geared hubs. I don't know how easy it is to swap between a derailleur set up and an internal hub set up. And you don't want to eat the cost of rebuilding the current wheel if you are going to change systems.
Good Luck.
Larry Powers
"just when you think that you've been gyped the bearded lady comes and does a double back flip" - John Hiatt
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:57:30 -0800
> Subject: [RBW] Seeking advice on 650b wheel replacement and internally geared hubs
> From: moc...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
1) you have the oversized CR-18 rims and find they aren't usuable
2) you want to try an internal hub because you think it might like it better.
I set my wife's Bleriot up with the exact wheels you described. I had a hard time changing tires in my shop so there is no way she would be able to change them on the side of the road. I decided to replace these wheels with the Weinmann ZAC-19 rims. I got lucky and found someone selling a complete set of wheels with Deore hubs. The hubs were a step down from the Deore LX but still good, I will eventually build up her Deore LX hubs with some Velocity rims for a set of bomb proof touring wheels.
The LX level hub and is what my bike shop recomended for touring wheels. At your wait for a touring bike you want 36 hole hubs. For an all purpose bike you might use a 36 hole rear and 32 hole front.
I have no experience with the internally geared hubs. I don't know how easy it is to swap between a derailleur set up and an internal hub set up. And you don't want to eat the cost of rebuilding the current wheel if you are going to change systems.
Good Luck.
Larry Powers
"just when you think that you've been gyped the bearded lady comes and does a double back flip" - John Hiatt
> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:57:30 -0800
> Subject: [RBW] Seeking advice on 650b wheel replacement and internally geared hubs
> From: moc...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Bill Connell
Jan 21, 2009, 1:14:46 PM1/21/09
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Dan <abels...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I am actually seriously considering selling my IG bike and
> building up a crosscheck as a 1 x 8 for commuting and child trailer
> pulling duties.
>
> I am actually seriously considering selling my IG bike and
> building up a crosscheck as a 1 x 8 for commuting and child trailer
> pulling duties.
I think this is an unbeatable setup for trailer pulling and general
riding. Since my kids are getting to large to pull in the Burley, i've
switched my 1x8 over to a fixed wheel, but i really need to set up
something geared for cargo trailer and trail-a-bike use again. Spring,
i'll do it in the spring...
--
Bill Connell
St. Paul, MN
fug...@gmail.com
Jan 21, 2009, 1:58:43 PM1/21/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
Would a 590 tire fit on your rim ? I have Sun CR-18 650A rims; 6 mm
bigger diameter.
590 Bead Seat Diameter vs 584 (sometimes sold as 26 x 1 3/8.
bigger diameter.
590 Bead Seat Diameter vs 584 (sometimes sold as 26 x 1 3/8.
John McMurry
Jan 21, 2009, 2:58:05 PM1/21/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
On Jan 20, 8:57 pm, Tyler <mock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I bought a used Bleriot some time ago that came with wheels made with
> Sunrim CR-18 rims and they're unquestionably from the oversized
> batch.
You should contact the shop you bought those rims from. I've heard a
> I bought a used Bleriot some time ago that came with wheels made with
> Sunrim CR-18 rims and they're unquestionably from the oversized
> batch.
rumor that Sun is addressing these PR issues.
>snip<
> Alternatively, I'm kicking around the idea of building a rear wheel
Alfine IG hubs are really nice hubs, as far as IG hubs go. IG hubs
benefit from very convenient shifting in stop/go traffic and have very
simple adjustments to keep it shifting nice.
There are a few tradeoffs too, as Jim T. pointed out.
John McMurry
Burlington, VT
Tyler
Jan 22, 2009, 2:01:32 PM1/22/09
to RBW Owners Bunch
I really appreciate everyone's input, thank you! Addressing a few
things:
I'm in San Francisco so cold weather is largely a non-issue. On the
other hand, I intend to have this bike for a very long time so having
a configuration that will stand up wherever I am is a good thing.
I don't have the know-how nor the tools to rebuild the wheels myself
at this time.
I didn't buy the rims from a shop; I bought the complete bike used
from someone else.
I'm still on the fence about what I want to do, so for now the plan is
to keep learning what I can and keep riding my backup bike in the
meantime. I'm going to find out how much it'll cost to have the
wheels rebuilt with velocity synergy rims.
things:
I'm in San Francisco so cold weather is largely a non-issue. On the
other hand, I intend to have this bike for a very long time so having
a configuration that will stand up wherever I am is a good thing.
I don't have the know-how nor the tools to rebuild the wheels myself
at this time.
I didn't buy the rims from a shop; I bought the complete bike used
from someone else.
I'm still on the fence about what I want to do, so for now the plan is
to keep learning what I can and keep riding my backup bike in the
meantime. I'm going to find out how much it'll cost to have the
wheels rebuilt with velocity synergy rims.
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