Question regarding Paul Center Pull brakes

[Rene Sterental]

I am noticing a significant amount of flex on my Silver sidepull brakes on the AHH. The flex itself is not important to me, but it seems to me I have to pull the leverss really hard in order to get the bike to stop, and the flex just compounds the problem as I can keep pulling the levers with no feel of a stop.

 

After reading the incredibly comprehensive article in BQ on brakes, and for the first time understanding not only how the brakes work, but their pros and cons throughout their evolution, I "discovered" the Paul makes center pull brakes that are compatible with the AHH. I guess I should have paid more attention as they are on the Rivendell site, but with their much higher price and my complete ignorance, I just didn't know what they were.

 

Question 1: Will the Paul center pulls give me a much better braking experience? Mark at Rivendell seems to think so, he said that several of them use them.

 

Question 2: Cost aside, is it worth getting them in the polished finish? About $100 more than the regular finish... I kind of like the idea of how the polished brakes look on the AHH, but don't know if the polished finish improves, detracts or just does nothing for the performance and durability of the brake long term...

 

So many questions... so many good answers from this group!

 

René

Orth...@yahoo.com

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 14:13 -0800, Rene Sterental wrote:

> Question 2: Cost aside, is it worth getting them in the polished
> finish? About $100 more than the regular finish... I kind of like the
> idea of how the polished brakes look on the AHH, but don't know if the
> polished finish improves, detracts or just does nothing for the
> performance and durability of the brake long term...

What???? On the Paul site the polished is ten bucks more than the
regular. http://paulcomp.com/racer.html

[Rene Sterental]

I found the regular set online for S217 and free shipping/no sales
tax. Since I'm in CA, ordering the polished ones directly would total
about $380 with shipping and CA sales tax. That is a huge
difference... unless there is a huge performance or durability
benefit.

René

--
Sent from my mobile device

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 14:51 -0800, Rene Sterental wrote:
> I found the regular set online for S217 and free shipping/no sales
> tax. Since I'm in CA, ordering the polished ones directly would total
> about $380 with shipping and CA sales tax. That is a huge
> difference... unless there is a huge performance or durability
> benefit.

The difference is purely cosmetic.

[reynoldslugs]

I had my Pereira built with Pauls, braze-ons in high polish. Pictures
here:

http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2009/cc690-davidbeach0909.html

They work very, very well. In my experience -- which involved slowing
or stopping my own considerable mass on 18% desents on a regular basis
- - dual-pivots (Shimano and Campagnolo) work very well, but the
Pauls are significantly more powerful and modulate better.

No functional difference for high polish, just looks good on some
bikes.

One negative: pretty bad squeal from the pads. No amount of toe-in or
adjustment solved this. The solution: velo-orange brake pads, which
are "guaranteed not to squeak." Darned if they didn't fix the problem.

RL 531

[Rene Sterental]

Great photos! I'm glad you managed to get rid of the brake squeal! I think that for now, I'll go with the regular finish and apply the difference to some other parts, most likely the Acorn Boxy Bag.

 

I'll be getting the center mount version for the AHH, but I wonder if these in the braze-on version would make better brakes for the Bombadil, or should I just go with the regular Paul cantilevers?

 

René

[reynoldslugs]

IIRC, Paul Braze-on brakes require a different braze-on dimension than
regular cantilevers. I.e, you pretty much need a custom frameset.
They don't work on regular canti mounts.

If I'm incorrect on this, hopefully someone on the list can supply
better info.

> > > The difference is purely cosmetic.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 15:52 -0800, reynoldslugs wrote:
> IIRC, Paul Braze-on brakes require a different braze-on dimension than
> regular cantilevers. I.e, you pretty much need a custom frameset.
> They don't work on regular canti mounts.

IIRC the pivots are the same, but the location is different. However,
there is a bolt-on version of the Paul Racer as well as the braze-on
version.

[rob markwardt]

I, too, tried the Silvers and was disatisfied with their stopping
performance. I'm sure the Pauls are awesome (they sure look great on
that Periera), however, I found that the $50 DiaCompe's solved all my
braking needs.

[Frankwurst]

reynoldslugs, anybody that has a frame built with a flask holder wins
my utmost respect. Steve, I believe is correct on the mounting of the
brakes. Rene I would go with the cantis on the Bombadil, Touring in
the rear, Neo Retros up front. You'll stop as fast as you have the
stones to stop. And polished sure looks nice but no more functional,
and from my stand point they would require more work on my part
(polishing and cleaning) so I prefer the others but that's just me.
I'm not Mister Clean when it comes to my bikes.

[Rene Sterental]

Great summary! Paul cantis, Neo Retros on the front and Touring on the back for the Bombadil! Center bolt Paul Racers for the AHH on the regular finish... historically I'm not Mister Clean on the bikes either... :-)

Thanks for all the helpful answers!

René

[Jason Hartman]

 If you don't want to spend $200++ on the Paul brakes you could
give Weinmann/Dia Compe 750 centerpulls a try.
Rivendell has them new for around $50 a set, but any
bike shop that has been around for a while should have
some used ones for cheap.  They were used on an
incredible amount of bikes in the 60's and 70's.
Everything from Rene Herse to low end UJB's

http://www.reneherse.com/RedRH1969.html

Jay Hartman

[Patrick in VT]

I also have the braze-on racers. very strong (at least as strong as
the paul canti's have I have on my cx rig). great modulation. can
anyone compare the braze-on racers with the centermount/bolt-on
version? I'd think the braze-on version is the way to go if you want
a really noticeable difference in terms of stiffness and modulation -
but, as noted, you need to have the posts tacked on for these.

here's another pic of the high polish racer in the wild -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22267176@N02/4094240430/in/set-72157622654401429/

[Gino Zahnd]

Disclosure: Paul is a friend, I use many of his products, and I race
on his cyclocross team.

> Question 1: Will the Paul center pulls give me a much better braking
> experience? Mark at Rivendell seems to think so, he said that several of
> them use them.
>

There is simply no comparison between the Tektro sidepulls and Paul
centerpulls. The Paul centerpull modulation and stopping power is
much, much better. I have the Tektros on my Bleriot, and have two sets
of Paul centerpulls on other bikes,

> Question 2: Cost aside, is it worth getting them in the polished finish?
> About $100 more than the regular finish... I kind of like the idea of how
> the polished brakes look on the AHH, but don't know if the polished finish
> improves, detracts or just does nothing for the performance and durability
> of the brake long term...
>

It's just for looks. Me, I like shiny stuff on classic bikes. But my
cyclocross racer has black centerpulls.

The difference in price is $10 per wheel for polished vs. anodized.

[Gino Zahnd]

Unless your bike was specifically designed around Paul brazeon
centerpulls, they won't work. The bombadil isn't designed around that
brake. But it'll take the MotoLite or any of the cantis.

[dpco]

after looking at this thread, i was wondering if it is possible to
install paul's brazeon brakes on a rambouilet?
don c.

[Ray Shine]

Rene -- I have the Paul Neos on the front of my Atlantis, Touring on the rear.  Great brakes.  Wish I could afford to put a set on my Quickbeam. --- On Tue, 11/10/09, Rene Sterental <orth...@gmail.com> wrote:

[dpco]

i need to change my question. will paul's "racer brake" work on a
rambouillet?
don c.

[Anne]

Racer Center Mount will work on your Ramouillet (assuming it takes
center pull brakes)
Racer Braze On requires canti-style mounts in a specific location
(located higher than canti or V-brake)

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 18:50 -0800, Anne wrote:
> Racer Center Mount will work on your Ramouillet (assuming it takes
> center pull brakes)

It will indeed. I've seen photos of an orange Rambouillet with Mafac
Racers installed, possibly Sheldon's. Yes, definitely, here:
http://sheldonbrown.org/rambouillet/pages/headtube.html

So -- while I dearly love my Paul Racers (my Velo Orange Randonneur has
them) the Mafac originals are a whole lot less expensive.

[dpco]

steve,
how do you handle the rear? where do you install the cable guide?don
c.

[cyclotourist]

Isn't there a normal reach centerpull type Racer model in the pipeline.  Mr. Z., this is where you chime in...

--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye, scientist guy

[Rene Sterental]

Thanks for all the feedback. The polished Paul Racers are not in stock, and not likely available until sometime in January, I was told at Paul's. I'm going to go with the regular finished version since I found them on sale online. I had the Neo Retro and Touring cantis on the Gunnar I sold, and liked them very much so I'll stay loyal. Since I'm likely going to put them on the Bombadil (after I replace a spring on one that I messed up when I removed them), I'll have Paul's brakes on both Rivendell bikes. They are black, so if I decide to go for the silver instead, I'll put them up for sale on this list. I'm currently thinking of going for a very dark green color on the Bombadil, instead of the cream color I originally liked. I saw Bearded Peter's pictures of his black Bombadil and it looks awesome. With the gold lettering and gold headtube, I think the very dark green would be exactly what I want. Besides, my 10 year old son's favorite color is green... :-)

Now the question remains about which tires to get for the Bombadil..., but I'll start that as a different thread. 

Thank you all!

René

[Rene Sterental]

Just out of curiosity... why would Paul design the braze-on version for posts that only a custom made bike would have? Why not make them work with normally placed posts for cantis of V-brakes?

René

[CycloFiend]

on 11/10/09 8:10 PM, Rene Sterental at orth...@gmail.com wrote:

Just out of curiosity... why would Paul design the braze-on version for posts that only a custom made bike would have? Why not make them work with normally placed posts for cantis of V-brakes?

I think it's more a function that they used traditional centerpull mount dimensions.  The pivot points are different than canti posts.  U-Brakes also used a different mounting arrangement for the same reason.

They are both "standard" mounts, just for different types of brakes.

- Jim

--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

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[Gino Zahnd]

Don't bother getting posts on your Ram.

Paul will soon be releasing a new medium reach centerpull that, in my
opinion, is even better than the regular centerpull. Why do I say
that? Because it has the same qualities as the Racer, but the arms are
shorter. Less flex, more stopping power, better modulation. Here is a
bad photo of my prototypes:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gzahnd/3685396099/

The new brake easily fits 35mm tires, or 40mm Honjos with 28mm tire.

-Gino

[Gino Zahnd]

Yep. What Jim said.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 20:10 -0800, Rene Sterental wrote:
> Just out of curiosity... why would Paul design the braze-on version
> for posts that only a custom made bike would have? Why not make them
> work with normally placed posts for cantis of V-brakes?

It's not perversity, but rather the geometry of centerpulls. Take a
look at any centerpull brake and see where the pivots are located, and
compare with cantilevers or V brakes.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2009-11-10 at 19:32 -0800, dpco wrote:
> steve,
> how do you handle the rear? where do you install the cable guide?don

How about one of these http://velo-orange.com/suststcaha.html
or one of these: http://velo-orange.com/recastwianad.html or one of
these http://www.yellowjersey.org/hanger.html ?

[JoelMatthews]

Very good to see Paul expanding its line of Centerpull brakes.
Perhaps these will be called Competitions? If these new brakes have
anything like the stopping power of the Racer, they will be a perfect
choice for the Roadeo and people setting up their Hilsens and
Hilbornes for pure road use. Centerpull brakes look great on Mixtes
as well.

The new high polish version of the Paul Racer has me in quite a
quandry. Cicli Polito will be putting together a road bike for me
built to accommodate the 650b Hetres. After spending about 15 hours
polishing a pair of Mafac Raids, I see on the Paul site they now sell
high polish Racers. So do I go with the antique part or the modern
variation? The world of high end bikes is so full of dilemnas! ;)

> > don c.- Hide quoted text -

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 06:02 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> Very good to see Paul expanding its line of Centerpull brakes.
> Perhaps these will be called Competitions? If these new brakes have
> anything like the stopping power of the Racer, they will be a perfect
> choice for the Roadeo and people setting up their Hilsens and
> Hilbornes for pure road use. Centerpull brakes look great on Mixtes
> as well.
>
> The new high polish version of the Paul Racer has me in quite a
> quandry. Cicli Polito will be putting together a road bike for me
> built to accommodate the 650b Hetres. After spending about 15 hours
> polishing a pair of Mafac Raids, I see on the Paul site they now sell
> high polish Racers. So do I go with the antique part or the modern
> variation? The world of high end bikes is so full of dilemnas! ;)

Peter Weigle uses the Raids. Can't be in better company than that.

[stevep33]

On Nov 10, 10:32 pm, dpco <dcompton1...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> steve,
> how do you handle the rear? where do you install the cable guide?don
> c.
>

Not sure I saw an answer to this particular question.
You can install a "slotted rear brake hanger" (see Riv website) on the
seatpost binder bolt. Works great.

IMHO I wonder if trying a new set of high-quality brake pads might be
a more economical way to get more stopping power if you already have a
bike with serviceable brakes. Good solutions can sometimes be cheap
and easy! Though if you are starting from scratch or have some
clearance issues then Paul's are a nice option.

[MichaelH]

I am also a big fan of polished components, but, I'm not sure about
brakes. I have the Neo-retros and although they are fantastic brakes,
it turns out that, because cantis sit below the fenders they are
always dirty. Perhaps black would look better than my matte. I've
ordered the posted racers for my new tandem and am hoping, because
they sit above the fender, they will stay cleaner. BTW, In
discussions with Paul's, they recommended the racers over the neo
retros, although the latter are, as we all have noted phenomenal
brakes. I view them like a good frame - a lifetime investment.. (and
your body wont decide they need a different brake, like it might with
a frame!)

Michael
Westford, Vt
BTW, My back continues to heal and I should be well enough to ride
just in time for the first good snowstorm!

> > The difference in price is $10 per wheel for polished vs. anodized.- Hide quoted text -

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 06:53 -0800, MichaelH wrote:
> I am also a big fan of polished components, but, I'm not sure about
> brakes. I have the Neo-retros and although they are fantastic brakes,
> it turns out that, because cantis sit below the fenders they are
> always dirty.

I have the polished Racers on my Velo Orange Randonneur. They've never
once gotten dirty. Polished looks fantastic.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/97916047@N00/sets/72157606169015639/show/

[newenglandbike]

I have the Tektro 720 (or whatever model... the huge ones) on my
Quickbeam and I set up the straddle hanger so it's about 90 degrees
off the brake arm when the pad is on the rim. I don't see how
brakes could get any better than this!

On Nov 10, 8:26 pm, Gino Zahnd <ginoza...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Unless your bike was specifically designed around Paul brazeon
> centerpulls, they won't work.  The bombadil isn't designed around that
> brake. But it'll take the MotoLite or any of the cantis.
>

[newenglandbike]

^^^ Sorry for going off topic, I know we're talking about center-pulls
here. WRT center-pulls, I wonder if BQ talks about the Mod 750 in
comparison to the Pauls?

[JoelMatthews]

Is that the Toei stradle hanger or the VO?

[rswa...@me.com]

On Nov 11, 2009, at 7:27 AM, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> Peter Weigle uses the Raids. Can't be in better company than that.
>

Sure you can: I use them , too! ;-)
Best Brakes Ever!

Ryan

[Foon]

Can't wait.

On Nov 11, 12:01 am, Gino Zahnd <ginoza...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Don't bother getting posts on your Ram.
>
> Paul will soon be releasing a new medium reach centerpull that, in my
> opinion, is even better than the regular centerpull. Why do I say
> that? Because it has the same qualities as the Racer, but the arms are
> shorter. Less flex, more stopping power, better modulation.  Here is a
> bad photo of my prototypes:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/gzahnd/3685396099/
>
> The new brake easily fits 35mm tires, or 40mm Honjos with 28mm tire.
>
> -Gino
>

[Foon]

No, it won't work. The Paul racer has a longer reach, similar to the
extra long sidepulls. However, you can find used post mounted
centerpull brakes(Weinmann, Dia compe) that have a shorter reach. I
recently installed a set of Weinmann 610 in the front for my Romulus
to provide more clearance for rack and fender mounting. I think they
work just as well as the tektro I have before, if not better.

Of course, to really see the real advantages of centerpulls, you'd
have to use the stud-mounted ones. In that case, you would have to
have the studs brazed on by a framebuilder.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 07:50 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> Is that the Toei stradle hanger or the VO?

VO. Just as pretty and LOTS less expensive.

[reynoldslugs]

As a coda to this thread, and a final recommendation for these brakes:
about an hour ago I was pushing Paul Racers about as hard as a brake
can be pushed, and they were just stellar. Again, I'll recommend the
Velo-Orange brake pad combination.

Just finished my typical midweek ride, on Los Alamos road. Profile
here:

http://www.srcc.com/profiles_html/los_alamos_rd.HTM

Coming down the middle section, about 16%, I let the Pereira fly,
moved my 100kg mass back on the saddle, then braked hard hard hard
coming into a series of S-turns. The brakes were just superb,
fabulous power and modulation. Absolutely silent with the Velo-Orange
brake pads.

Sure, you skinny guys may wax us going up, but a steep downhill with
Pauls is pure fun for us Clydes.

I've ridden this particular hill maybe 200x in the last few years,
with every kind of brake - Paul and Shimano cantis, short pull
Campagnolos, standard reach Ultegras, old Nuovo Recods, and Modolo
Pro's (all right, admittedly no Mafacs). The Pauls just slay them
all.

at the end of the ride, a tip of the flask to Paul.

[Frankwurst]

Ahh so the flask isn't just for climbs. Either way it gets my seal of
approval!

> > VO.  Just as pretty and LOTS less expensive.- Hide quoted text -

[Rene Sterental]

Steve, what a beautiful bike!

The polished brakes look impressive!

René

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2009-11-11 at 20:16 -0800, Rene Sterental wrote:
> Steve, what a beautiful bike!
>
>
> The polished brakes look impressive!

Thanks. The performance is indeed impressive. And they do look nice.
How much of the performance is because they're brazed on I don't know,
since I've never tried the bolt-ons. I do have one bike with bolt on
Mafac Raids, and their performance is fine too.