Linear Tiff doesn't look "flat". Why?

[Arthur]

Hi!

When I convert my raw file to linear tiff with RPP it is dark but looks like it has gamma 2. In comparison, dcraw actually produces "flat" looking linear tiffs.

Am I missing something?

Best regards,

Arthur

[Kirk Thibault]

It looks like, if I am assuming the bottom image is the RPP image and the top image is the dcraw image, that you added 1 stop of straight exposure to the RPP image.  Otherwise they pretty much look the same in terms of gamma.

Can you post a comparison of the dcraw output compared to the RPP output for no exposure adjustment in RPP?

Kirk

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<settings.png><rpp.png><dcraw.png>

[Kirk Thibault]

Are you rendering this image for use in Color Neg (Color Perfect) for inversion of the film negative?  I have used RPP to generate raw renderings for Color Perfect and RPP renders linear UniWB TIFFs that work as expected.

Kirk

On Aug 18, 2022, at 7:39 AM, Arthur <varth...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Iliah Borg]

Does the application you are using to view files respect embedded colour profiles?

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[Kirk Thibault]

That’s what I was going to ask - if the raw file is rendered as “raw RGB” and you assign it a linear profile in PS, it will be displayed as shown.  Attached is a comparison of a raw file, rendered in RPP with UniWB, linear gamma, output as Raw 16 bit to PS.   The image was brought into PS as an untagged TIFF and no color management was applied (leave as is, don’t manage).  In the attached image, this is the rendering on the right.  The image was duplicated in PS and then ASSIGNED a color profile, AdobeRGB, gamma 1.0.  This image is shown on the left.

If you are using these renderings for Color Perfect, you need to set up your working space in PS as the working space of your choice (AdobeRGB, sRGB, whatever).  This will be the default color space that you will specify in the Color Perfect interface when you are manipulating the image in the plug-in.  DO NOT ASSIGN a profile in PS before you convert the image in Color Perfect.  Once you perform the conversion in Color Perfect, you can assign the color profile you want to tag the image with.

Kirk

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[Kirk Thibault]

If you do assign a profile to the raw, untagged image when you bring it into PS, assign the same profile as the working space.  That is, do not assign a linear profile of that space.  If you do, the image will be displayed with the gamma transform.

Kirk

On Aug 18, 2022, at 10:06 AM, Kirk Thibault <kirkth...@gmail.com> wrote:

That’s what I was going to ask - if the raw file is rendered as “raw RGB” and you assign it a linear profile in PS, it will be displayed as shown.  Attached is a comparison of a raw file, rendered in RPP with UniWB, linear gamma, output as Raw 16 bit to PS.   The image was brought into PS as an untagged TIFF and no color management was applied (leave as is, don’t manage).  In the attached image, this is the rendering on the right.  The image was duplicated in PS and then ASSIGNED a color profile, AdobeRGB, gamma 1.0.  This image is shown on the left.

If you are using these renderings for Color Perfect, you need to set up your working space in PS as the working space of your choice (AdobeRGB, sRGB, whatever).  This will be the default color space that you will specify in the Color Perfect interface when you are manipulating the image in the plug-in.  DO NOT ASSIGN a profile in PS before you convert the image in Color Perfect.  Once you perform the conversion in Color Perfect, you can assign the color profile you want to tag the image with.

Kirk

<RPPraw.jpeg>

[Arthur]

Thanks, for the replies!

The dcraw image is the brighter one, and RPP the darker one. You can check the filenames ;)

Yes, I think the viewing program (MacOS Preview) does respect color profiles.

I'm currently writing my own tri-color scanning solution and was trying to figure out why dcraw linear tiffs look different. Also, RPP tiffs look a lot sharper even without sharpening applied, idk why...

[Arthur]

I just don't understand why RPP linear tiff is so much more contrasty. A few other raw processors exported linear Tiffs same as dcraw.

[Arthur]

I'm fairly new to the topic of color profiles haha, so I'm struggling a bit.

Why would you apply a color profile with adjusted gamma to a linear tiff?

Why not just produce w x h x 3 RGB 16 bit numerical matrix from raw file and assign to a color space, Adobe RGB for example, and save it as tiff?

It's quite hard for me to understand the color profile stuff...

[Kirk Thibault]

Can you post the command line dcraw instructions you are using for your dcraw conversion?

Kirk

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[Arthur]

dcraw -q 3 -r 1 1 1 1 -t 0 -o 4 -4 -T file.arw

[Iliah Borg]

On 8/18/22 14:03, Arthur wrote:
> dcraw -q 3 -r 1 1 1 1 -t 0 -o 4 -4 -T file.arw

You don't need to convert through a poor matrix. That will only make removing the mask harder. -o 0 is more appropriate.

You may use auto white balance from the unexposed part of the film (and -w), and filter the light to counter-act the
mask (resulting wb coefficients will be closer to all 1s). If you are using a monitor as a light source, it's quite easy.

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>>>>
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>>>> LibRaw, LLC

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[Arthur]

Thanks for the info, Iliah!

I'm using a tri-color scanning approach and I already wrote an app for iOS to automatically switch between RGB modes. I measured an iPhone's OLED display using a spectrometer and the wavelengths seem ok enough.

Then I extract only the particular channel as grayscale and then combine all three back using ImageMagick: convert r.tiff g.tiff b.tiff -combine -channel RGB merged.tiff

As last step I was running some experiments to normalize channels, because now the orange mask is removed. Fred's IM negative2positive works very well for now, I will see what works well too http://www.fmwconcepts.com/imagemagick/negative2positive/index.php

The only problematic part is getting a high quality tiff out of raw. Dcraw seems not sharp enough. RPP is great, but bad to automate. So now I'm experimenting with RawTherapee CLI, because it's demosaicing algorithm is actually better than dcraw and it's also open source.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts!

Best regards,

Arthur

[Iliah Borg]

Consider converting the result of tri-color scan to linear DNG.

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> >>>>
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[Arthur]

I would love to, but don't know how haha. Adobe's documentation is pretty bad.

[Kirk Thibault]

As Iliah noted, -o 0 will give you raw output, untagged.  You will find that when you view the TIFF generated this way, leaving it unmanaged, it will look “correct,” without any color profile tag.

Kirk

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[Kirk Thibault]

Arthur.

There was an email a couple of weeks ago asking to make RPP accessible from the command line - was that from you?  I would second that request!

Kirk

[Iliah Borg]

There should be opensource applications out there that might help. DNG is TIFF, with a few tags added.

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> > >>>> Iliah Borg
> > >>>> LibRaw, LLC

> > >>>> www.libraw.org <http://www.libraw.org> <http://www.libraw.org <http://www.libraw.org>>
> <http://www.libraw.org/ <http://www.libraw.org/> <http://www.libraw.org/ <http://www.libraw.org/>>>
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> <http://www.rawdigger.com/ <http://www.rawdigger.com/> <http://www.rawdigger.com/ <http://www.rawdigger.com/>>>

> > >>>> www.fastrawviewer.com <http://www.fastrawviewer.com> <http://www.fastrawviewer.com
> <http://www.fastrawviewer.com>> <http://www.fastrawviewer.com/ <http://www.fastrawviewer.com/>
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[Arthur]

Yes, that was me! I think as GUI it has 10% of potential as compared if it had CLI ;)

[Arthur]

Ok, well because we are off topic either way now and talking about color negative conversion I might ask this:

Do you guys know if there is any way to embed level adjustments non-destructively, so that the file could be edited in another program further?

I like the idea of Negative Lab Pro as it only adds adjustment layers on top of the original file making all changes non-destructive, but I want to make a standalone solution.

Arthur.