RavenDB licensing question self hosted on VM

[rabidlemming]

Hi, 

So the licensing on http://ravendb.net/support for the profssional option. What exactly dose that cover us for. Say I have a set of azure VM's that I want to run a clustered RavenDB setup on would I have to pay a license for each VM or is it per CPU or database ? I couldn't find any details to help explain what a licence is for ?  

whats the recommended spec for a Vm running Raven ? Azure lets you select different setups but costs go up quickly bested on performance needs.

Im doing a price comparison of ravenDB vs mongo vs documentDB vs azure elasticsearch vs sql server so im really hoping the licence isnt per Vm as that mean id have to run a single VM win azure and throw resource at it to compensate  if that works out cheaper than per VM licensing 

Thanks

R

[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

The license is per instance, so each VM will need a separate license. 

Note that you can also run on RavenHQ, which will handle all of that for you.

Hibernating Rhinos Ltd  

Oren Eini l CEO l Mobile: + 972-52-548-6969

Office: +972-4-622-7811 l Fax: +972-153-4-622-7811

 

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[Rob Scott]

Oren,

Here are a few unsolicited suggestions for RavenDB licensing.

First off, the current BlueSnap licensing system is a royal pain in the patoot.

Second, the current per-CPU licensing scheme is a poor match for on-demand virtual machines on services like AWS.

Here's my suggestion:

1 - Allow us to set up an account directly with you and be issued a license key

2 - Configure Raven on an AWS instance with the license key

3 - When configured for "production," the RavenDB server would report its usage (and AWS instance type) directly to a Hibernating Rhinos web service

4 - Hibernating Rhinos would bill us for hours used

The hourly rate would be based on the AWS instance type.

This would greatly simplify billing and management for us. It would turn RavenDB into something closer to an on-demand service like AWS, but still give us the flexibility to self-host and deploy using our DevOps tooling.

Regards,

Rob

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[rabidlemming]

Well we tend to only to host in azure as thats where we host everything else. It makes it easier to manage and maintain as its one entry point to all our clouding needs. It also means its an easier sell to the organisation (If we can keep it in the same place as our other services).  We also have to comply with data laws that state our data must be held in western european countries. We also have to use geo - replication for data contingency / disaster recovery. We would need a production, functional test and dev environments. Our enterprise agreement with Microsoft only offers the option of Raven in the US which we cant use due the the data laws (I cant help but think MS do this because they want us to use DocumentDB which just isnt a scratch on RavenDB) . As such we thought we could host Raven ourselves on VM's so we could keep it contained to the same azure setup that we run all our site operations from. 

Whist RavenHQ dose offer a wester azure data center option, the issue is its a separate azure instance to our own; so its a harder sell to the organisation. Moreover the cost of this option is far beyond that, competitively, than simply using  elasticsearch in azure. I have to justify why RavenDB over anything else from a costing and practicality point to organisation as that's what they tend to focus on ;rather than just how amazing it may be (which it is amazing).

That been said, what are your costs (ballpark if need be) for hosting RavenDB on Hibernating Rhinos web service? Where would those  web service be geo located ? what sort of disaster recovery is there in place. I looked at your site but could find any details of what pricing structure options there where sorry. If I can make a strong enough case i may be able to convince the business but I know cost will always factor a big part of the equation. 

Also say for arguments sake we decided to host Raven production licence on VM's whats the recommended spec for those VM's ? Could one have 2 beefed up VMs to run Raven or is it better practice to host on smaller VM's but have more of them to share the load. Im trying to work out the costs as VMs have there own costs based on specs (or DTUs in azure) , add that to the cost of RavenDB licensing and it soon adds up which is fine but then i have to balance that against other solutions that can do the same but for a lot less like elasticsearch

thanks

R

[Dan Bishop]

Hey guys, its Dan Bishop from RavenHQ here. I wanted to chime in on this thread and let you know about our purpose, and to help answer any questions you may have. RavenHQ is the official cloud hosting provider for RavenDB and we work closely with the Hibernating Rhinos team to provide our services and support. One of the main value propositions for RavenHQ is to allow you to commoditize the hosting infrastructure and licensing requirements for running highly available RavenDB databases. We pro-rate all of our plans by the day, so you only pay for what you use and you have the option of scaling up to a higher plan as your needs grow. 

We are currently working with Microsoft to have our hosting offering made available in the Europe North & Europe West regions. We already offer plans in those regions, but those plans must be added directly via www.ravenhq.com instead of through the Azure Marketplace. If your organization is willing to pay RavenHQ directly instead of through Microsoft, we recommend signing up directly as that provides more billing flexibility compared to purchasing through the Azure Marketplace.

We host databases in either AWS or Azure, and offer both shared and dedicated hosting options. With dedicated hosting, you would have a set of VMs just for your RavenDB database (or databases), and you'd have the option of configuring a VPN to connect to another network if you required that. Dedicated hosting is available in any AWS or Azure region, with custom pricing based on your performance requirements.

If there are any other questions I can answer, please let me know!

Dan

[rabidlemming]

Actually to be fair the RavenHQ prices seem more than reasonable. I dont know if ill be able to convince the organisation that hosting in something other that our own azure instance is an option because they like to safe guard the resources and have control over them. 

So on that note what is the recommended setup for RavenDB , ie what VM specs would you recommend and how many VMs would you need in typical production environment. To give you an idea we get currently 3 million searches per month and 5 million page hits p/m ?

thanks

R

[Kijana Woodard]

Fwiw, I've had several people thrown off by the automatic inclusion of RavenFS on licensing page. They seem relieved when I point out that they can remove that and still get everything they were expecting from RavenDB for half the price. 

Related to that, a few people aren't initially aware that there is Standard and Basic pricing and they experience sticker shock from the Enterprise licensing.

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[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

Rob,

This setup makes a lot of assumptions about our actual usage.

I'll point out that users who want hourly billing already have a solution, namely, RavenHQ, where you can get dedicated instances that do pretty much what you want (plus actual ops team at hand).

A lot of our users are running on premise, we have large number of users who run is secured data centers, with no remote internet connection available, etc.

Regarding direct billing, we use Blue Snap specifically because it alleviates a lot of concerns for us. We don't need to keep CC cards, or keep track of taxes and VAT and a lot of other stuff like that.

It means that we can accept payment in multiple currencies and using anything from a check to write transfer to CC to PayPal.

The purchase model we have is intended for enterprise customers, while cloud users typically are using us via RavenHQ. 

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[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

It is right there at the top of the page:

I don't know what else we are suppose to do there.

[rabidlemming]

So ....dose any one know what is the recommended setup for RavenDB , ie what VM specs would you recommend and how many VMs would you need in typical production environment. To give you an idea we get currently 3 million searches per month and 5 million page hits p/m ?

thanks

[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

5 million hits per month?

D3 or higher should handle that, but be aware that you might need to look into premium storage (azure storage tend to be very slow).

We recommend 2 nodes in a master/master setup, with 3.5, you should have 3 nodes in a cluster with dynamic leader selection

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[Rob Scott]

Oren,

Yes, I understand. We're neither fish nor fowl - we are running in the cloud, but we have our own ops team and need more control/flexibility than RavenHQ would give us. We'll make do.

Thanks,

Rob

Rob Scott

Chief Technology Officer

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[Jahmai Lay]

+1 for bluesnap being shit. I don't know if it's improved recently, but signing in using an existing user name and password, then pressing the '+' button to add licenses, generates a new username and password to be generated for the new licenses?!

We now have 5 sets of username and password combos, once for each server pair. It's insane.

[Kijana Woodard]

Let's ignore the enterprise license for a moment.

How about the $698 including RavenFS, but people don't realize they can remove that and get Raven for ~half that. You have to click through and then think a bit.

[Tom Allard]

+1 on all that. Also I find it extremely funny (mind the irony) that you cannot have a password that has the same character twice or starts with a digit. 

[Oren Eini (Ayende Rahien)]

FWIW, we are planning to do a revamp of licensing for 4.0

I'm going to open a new thread for it with the full details soon