The Aging Pilot!

[John Sinclair]

In 2020 there were 4 pilots over the age of 85 in my region, Jim, Ray, Matt and me! All 4 of us have since stopped piloting gliders. I quit at 87after urging from my family, Jim quit at about the same age, on his own! Ray quit when he passed away from natural causes and Matt quit at 87 in a pile of splintered composite material that was all that was left of his brand new self launch Lak-17b, FES Mini Lak!

Matt had flown his LS-6 for years and was enjoying life and competing in our regional sports class every year. He usually made it around the assigned task. We used to joke about which one of us was going to be the last one standing? Sad to say, it’s me, RIP old friend!

He got it in his head that a self-launch sailplane was the way to go and bought a new Mini Lak with FES. His first flight was nothing short of horrendous!

He took off on his first flight in the new ship at mid-afternoon on a hot day in July! (Ding)

Everything went well until 800 feet when he got an overheat warning light, either motor or battery, Matt wasn’t able to distinguish because the motor stopped right after the warning lite came on! The only sane thing to do at that point was to make an immediate 180 and land ASAP! Matt thought he might be able to snag a thermal (ding-ding)! No luck finding a thermal left him near mid field with less than 600 feet altitude! He didn’t have enough altitude to go to the end of the runway, so he set up a base leg aimed for mid runway. THEN the motor came back to life! Matt hadn’t retarded the throttle after the motor quit and when the over-temp condition cooled down, the system responded to the throttle setting! Trying to deal with the now unwanted spinning propeller while turning final, his left wing struck the runway, which spun him around to just about runway heading, but the ship slammed down hard as the tire& tube exploded and the axle bent.

All of the above was detailed to me in a Email which finished up with,  ALL IN ALL, NOT TOO BAD! (Ding, Ding, Ding)

I wrote back and told him I thought he was lucky to me alive! I recommended he not attempt another self launch until he had much more time in the bird and thoroughly worked out all issues with system!

More to follow, after my nap and a good chug of Geritol

JJ

[John Sinclair]

Matt took some of my advice and trailered out of state to get a high tow. He had a great 4 hour flight and he ran and stowed the motor 5 times! The next week, August 7, 2020 found him back at the scene of the crime to finish up his 5 hours total time including 3 self launch flight restriction in the designated flight area. Very little is known about his final flight. I believe he assembled my himself and then took off from Lampson, Ca and never returned! His family became concerned when Matt didn’t come home and they checked his Spot trace that showed a final position some 10 miles north of Lampson. His son found the wreckage close to where his last Spot fix showed.

The NTSB did not send anybody to investigate this fatal accident, relying on photographs, written reports from first responders, Sheriff report, etc. Their final report that took over a year to produce assumed Matt had probably inadvertently entered a spin. One interesting note, the motor was running at impact! I believe he did enter a spin but why and why was the motor running? If he was  turning left in a thermal and flying 3 knots above stall and throttled up still flying just above stall,  could the momentary increased drag and then the increasing torque, cause the ship to stall followed by a spin to the left? Why wasn’t a simple test performed? It’s never too late, maybe one of the several several Mini owners perform a test, next time your good and high. Put the ship in a 45 degree left bank while flying 3 knots about stall……………..then suddenly throttle up!

The report contains no mention of the problems encountered on his first flight and no mention of the age related issues of a 87 year old pilot trying to learn a new ship and a new launch system! This accident was thoroughly discussed on Ras and the focus was on age related issues. One responder said there had been 3  Mimi’s spin-in, world wide! I doubt the NTSB knew about the first flight or the fact that  the second flight was made at an airport not located within the assigned flight test area! In short I doubt they did little more than look at the photos, read the reports and looked at the flight trace! In my considered opinion, the primary cause of this accident is problems associated with an old pilot trying to learn how to fly a new ship with anew launch system !

Accident # WPR20LH257

Time for my nap, will wind this all up tomorrow,

JJ

[John Sinclair]

You can see foolish posts on Ras, but it’s a whole lot better with a moderator on Ras_Prime! I try and ignore the trouble makers, but I read what a whole lot of posters have to say!

The Lord willing, I’ll turn 90 this August. I’ve logged 70 years in the cockpit! 1200hrs in Bombers, 1000 hrs in Fighter/Recon, 1500hrs in Tankers and 5000hrs in Sailplanes! It’s been a good run in peace and war! 200  combat missions in Nam and a couple of bail-outs + coming home with a hole or two in the bird a couple of times. I have torn up enough equipment to qualify as a Black Ace!………………………..

I was never bored!

See you on Ras_Prime,

JJ

[n5...@comcast.net]

JJ, you and Pat are surely missed at the gliderport. Hug Pat for us!

Craig Reinholt

[Tom Seim]

This should be a BIG warning to those who think that electric self-launchers are simpler and more reliable than gas. They ARE NOT!

Tom 2G

[Eric Greenwell]

Try flying an FES glider, and you might discover your definitive pronouncement was poorly considered. I have two flights in FES gliders, and they were clearly simpler  to operate than my ASH26E. They've been popular for many years, an unlikely outcome for something you suggest is more expensive and more difficult than gas powered self-launchers.

Eric G

[Tom Seim]

Overheating of the controller and motor are serious issues with all electric self-launchers. The controller automatically backs off current to the motor if temperature limits are hit. This occurred to one electric glider in Uvalde. The controller overheated at 100 ft and the pilot was only able to maintain that altitude, did an abbreviated pattern, and landed. After that he took aerotows. The manual limits operation to outside air temperatures of only 90 degrees.

Eric, have you ever flown an FES? That would be news to me. I am totally satisfied with my 31Mi. An electric glider at Ely will just not work. If you could self-launch you would be left with no capability whatsoever at a self-retrieve. Most pilots who bring an electric glider here take tows (when they are available).

Tom 2G

[Ramy Yanetz]

Tom, electric self launch  gives you the option to self launch or take aero tow. Indeed most pilots prefer to take aero tow where available and conserve the battery in case needed for self retrieve. When/where tows are not available, they can self launch. Nothing wrong with that. 

Ramy

[Eric Greenwell]

Yes, I've flown a MiniLak and a Silent Electro FES gliders (one flight each). I can not find any ground temperature limit for self-launching in the manuals. Also, according to the manuals, the FES controller does not reduce the power when an overtemperature occurs without giving you multiple opportunities to override it. 

It's nonsense to say "An electric glider at Ely will just not work", because they are just as capable of flying at Ely as all the unpowered gliders that routinely fly from Ely, and the electric power gives them a significant advantage over the unpowered gliders for avoiding landouts. 

Eric G

On Saturday, July 27, 2024 at 10:46:25 AM UTC-7 toms...@gmail.com wrote:

[Harry Johnson]

You blokes cannot agree on anything, over temp is a warning, do not ignore it. Harold Johnson

[*Eric Greenwell1*]

The FES controller gives you the option of ignoring an over temp warning, just in case your safety at that moment makes it worthwhile to risk damage to the battery or controller. I don't know what other controllers do.

Eric G

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[Steven Leonard]

Redlines are limits, not targets.

Steve Leonard

[Tom Seim]

Ramy,

The problem with that is when there are no tows available, which is one of the major reasons pilots buy self-launchers. If you can't self-launch because of overheating problems you no longer have a self-launcher.

Tom 2G

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[Tom Seim]

Eric,

The tow plane left town over a week ago, along with all of the towed gliders.

Tom

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[Tom Seim]

Eric,

Overriding the high-temperature warning is akin to ignoring the smoke alarm. It is there for a reason, and it isn't just advisory. The killer of semiconductors is heat. I would override it only in a real emergency.

Tom

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[Matthew Scutter]

Permit me to introduce some actual facts and real-world experience, which I know is rare on this list. I have hundreds of hours on both FES and RES, almost exclusively self-launching.

>The manual limits operation to outside air temperatures of only 90 degrees.

This is false for FES and RES. The FES has no limit in the manual and the RES is certified to operate up to 38c/100f (Make of that what you will).

>The controller automatically backs off current to the motor if temperature limits are hit

For a FES, this is not true. It just warns you and leaves it up to you if you want to action it. Yellow warnings are important and red warnings are urgent.

In hundreds of hours of FES self-launching in temperatures over 45c/110f I have yet to see a controller over temperature warning. Occasionally I have seen yellow motor temperature warnings in 45c+ but only after at least 1000ft climb at high power, and not requiring a reduction lower than a usable amount of climb performance. There is now an upgrade available to substantially increase engine airflow which I will get, as I understand magnet longevity is inversely correlated to temperature exposure.

For a SOLO RES, the air-cooled controller at 44kW takeoff power will overheat and reduce power in hot climates within ~2-3 minutes if you have forgotten to open your vents prior to takeoff. However it only reduces the power to Maximum Continuous Power (25kW), which is still a strong climb rate (>3kts at 575kg), higher than the maximum power on the FES!

If required you could override the warning and power up to 44kW again if the alternative is hitting something, but it seems extremely unlikely to be necessary.

I have not flown one but new RES now come with a water-cooled controller upgrade, presumably to improve this. Seems like a good idea for hot climates.

The RES is more powerful than any towplane I've experienced bar a Turbo Cmelek. I power down to 25kW at 200ft, otherwise I will climb too quickly to find a thermal before shutdown.

On neither type have I ever had battery heat warnings. I can only get the RES motor to give me temperature warnings after 4000ft+ of climb at high power.

Best regards,

Matthew

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[Ramy Yanetz]

Thanks Matthew, this was very helpful. 

Ramy

On Jul 31, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Matthew Scutter <yellowp...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Tom Seim]

I will endeavor to report back on the particular glider that was actually involved in this particular incident. Using the word "false" is pejorative in that you are assuming I am referring to that particular glider.

Tom 2G

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[Matt Herron]

I feel compelled to reply to JJs original post about my father's accident which occurred exactly four years ago today.  JJ made a few errors, omissions, and had some misconceptions about the accident that I would like to set straight.

Let's talk about the "first flight" JJ discussed.  Actually it was not the first flight.  Matt had journeyed to Lithuania to visit the LAK factory where he flew a LAK 17 FES with a beefed up battery capable of self launching.  In order to do this, he had to pass an FAA class II medical exam before leaving the US.  He flew that three times, including a self launch, and many starts and stops of the motor in the air.  He then flew the LAK Mini FES the next week, again cycling the motor many times.  After those flights he decided to purchase the Mini.  The first flight at Lampson did not go well, as JJ indicated, but for some different reasons.  As he was climbing out under power, Matt got an "Engine Heat" warning and shut down the throttle at about 800 ft AGL.  After a few turns and no lift, he headed back to the airport where he keyed up the radio to announce his landing.  Surprisingly, this turned on the engine again and it wouldn't quit, even after turning down the FCU.  He then turned off the main power, and the prop continued to spin (probably windmilling) and so was forced to land with a spinning prop.  He came in slow and nose high to avoid a prop strike, and probably stalled just above the ground, dropping in hard and blowing the tire and bending the axle.  LAK later confirmed this was a known problem with the mike keying up, and software and hardware had to be modified to fix it.  Additionally, one of the batteries wouldn't charge after that, showing an error indicating a cell with low/high voltage.  Two new battery circuit boards were sent out to fix that problem.

JJ then describes Matt's 4 hr flight at AirSailing.  I flew with him on that flight, and our mission was specifically to make sure he felt comfortable with the plane, and for both of us to evaluate any issues, mistakes, or decisions that might indicate he shouldn't be flying any more, given the previous incident.  We had a long discussion about this after the flight, and my only concern was that he sometimes was not responsive to radio calls right away due to long term hearing loss in one ear.  We agreed he would switch to a headset with an earpiece.  I didn't observe any other red flags or concerns with his flying.  He had about 1500 hrs in gliders at that point.

 The fatal flight occurred on Aug 7th, 2020 out of Lampson, CA.  His wife and daughter were present for the launch, and had a handheld radio with them.  The day was clear, with a mild 3-6 kt breeze, and temps were around 75-80 degrees on the ground.  I was also flying that day out of Williams.  Some time into the flight, neither I nor his wife could contact him on the radio.  This didn't bother me at first as we had had radio comms issues in the past, but upon landing at Williams, Rex offered to fly over and check out his last known position from spot.  That's when Rex discovered the crash site (not me) less than a mile from the airport.

Contrary to what JJ stated, the NTSB did a very thorough investigation, including recovery and review of the SPOT trace, a FlarmMouse trace, and the LX900 data.  They also recovered the wreckage and moved it to a site for reconstruction and analysis.  No mechanical faults were found.  Toxicology and autopsy reports were negative.  The conclusion was a possible spin.  I looked carefully at the recovered FlarmMouse trace.  The flight lasted about 20 minutes, and consisted of mostly looking for lift in the foothills around the airport. There wasn't much, if any.  It looks like the engine was run several times during the flight.  During the last 1:30 minutes of the flight, Matt was flying in a straight line northward with the engine off.  About 45 seconds later he started to climb straight ahead so I assume the engine was turned on again.  He climbed at 2-4 knots straight ahead for another 45 seconds at 47-51 knots ground speed.  The last fix showed 47 knots ground speed, 4.3 knots climb rate, and an altitude of 727 AGL (900 ft above  the airport, and about 0.9 miles from it.) You can draw your own conclusions about what may have happened next, but there was no turn shown on the trace, or dramatic change in speed or climb rate.  The engine had been running for 45 seconds.  As JJ mentioned to me, there had been several reports of stall/spins with the Mini LAK FES previously, and I passed this and other info on the the NTSB investigator.

Finally, I want to be clear that I strongly support the idea that we can and should all learn from accident reports, incidents, or stories of how pilots made mistakes or encountered challenges so others can avoid them.  In this case however, my father is not around to defend, explain or clarify his actions, and so I must do it for him.  Given that, I would have appreciated it if JJ had kept the pilot's identity anonymous when telling his story, especially with all the inaccurate details he included.  In the end, my father's reputation was sullied, and used as an example of a pilot that flew too long.  I hope JJ will consider a different approach in the future.

Regards,

Matt Herron (Jr)

[Matt Herron]

This is from Matt to Bryan Trujillo concerning his first flight at Lampson;

Hi Bryan: When I returned from a Lampson flight last week and attempted to

recharge the batteries, one took the charge and the other gave a coded message for

a problem with a low cell and would not charge.

I reported this to LZ Design, and they have arranged to send me two new circuit

boards for the batteries. Apparently, this problem has occurred before to owners

of the 16 cell (as opposed to 14 cell) batteries. Steve Bair told me he had the same

problem. The circuit boards are scheduled to arrive in Tuesday via DHL. I'll let

you know if I have further problems.

I was not aware that Truckee has also restricted charging of FES batteries.

Shouldn't be a problem for any site that has normal 110 v power as I assume

Truckee does. In the case of Air Sailing, all their power is generated from their

own system: Battery banks + diesel generator + solar array. Apparently there is a

power surge when the FES chargers are plugged in and that has crashed Air

Sailing power system.

Another problem that apparently is a concern with the 16 cell batteries occurred

on my first flight out of Lampson. I made a normal takeoff, noticed a "engine

heat" warning on the FCU, and shut down the engine. (Probably didn't need to

have done that -- it was probably only a yellow warning, calling for a reduction in

power.)

Anyway, I was circling at about 800 AGL, looking for lift and finding only sink.

So I headed back for the field, tripped the radio to announce landing, and the

engine started spontaneously, and would not quit even when I dialed back the

FCU. So I cut the main power switch and the engine STILL kept running -- to my

ears at least.

Recognizing that I now had a serious problem, and would have to land with the

prop spinning, I put full focus on getting the aircraft safely on the ground. I was

low enough that I cut the downwind and began base at mid-field (there was plenty

of runway), but when I turned final a cross wind had pushed me just beyond the

strip so all my attention was on getting back to a lineup with the runway. I was

also concerned with not nosing down enough to create a prop strike, and probably

stalled a couple of feet above the runway. The result was a hard landing and a

blown tire. Fortunately, there was no other damage to the glider or myself. I felt

very fortunate. It was my diciest landing in 18 years and 1,600 hours of flying.

I learned from LZ Design that apparent RF interference with all the multiple

antennas in a modern cockpit had occasionally caused the unexpected engine start

when the PTT switch was operated. Luka sent me detailed instructions on how to

make hardware and software changes to correct both that problem and the fact

that my prop docking was not perfect. After I had the tire replaced and tested the

system, everything worked perfectly. I should say that I've had fantastic support

from LZ Design. They're very responsive and stay with a problem until it's fixed.

I've been towing from a CG hook for 18 years. Initially, I had problems with my

LS-4, which had only a roller skate wheel for a tail wheel. But after I fixed that,

I've had absolutely no takeoff problems through three other gliders. I'm sure you'll

do OK, but I understand your concerns.

Cordially,

Matt

[Harry Johnson]

Just a brief comment on the case of spewing personal insults between mates, would you mates not be better served by responding privately to such events instead of spewing this kind of discussion publicly? Harold 

[*Eric Greenwell1*]

Matt's discussion of his Dad's accident is not "spewing", but a careful review of the facts - what you seem to desire; actually, what I think we all desire.

Eric G

[Matt Herron]

Harold,

For the record, I am good friends with JJ.  I have flown with him many times and competed against him at Air Sailing.  He has been mentor to me and many others there.  He was also good friends with my father, and re-finished dad's LS-6 for him.  Since he chose to express his thoughts in a public forum,  I felt it appropriate to respond through the same venue to correct some mis-information.  No "spewing" intended.

Matt Herron (Jr)

[George Haeh]

Matt,

We lost another pilot new to the LAK-17 during this year's Canadian Nationals. I had the excellent good fortune to survive a vortex/downburst encounter downwind of a low ridge south of the same glider field. The additional GS, TAS fields supplied to my Oudie allowed me to quantify the x and z windshears. I'd be happy to forward my methodology to you if you'd like.

Many of the newer flapped gliders have had loss of control accidents where wind and terrain seem to be the trigger.

[Ramy Yanetz]

To the contrary! I found Matt’s report very helpful to understand what happened and what may have lead to his dad accident. I only wish he shared this information earlier to reduce speculations as the NTSB report did not reveal enough. 

I also learned more about the things that can go wrong with electric motors and how to try to address them. I truly appreciate Matt sharing this info with us in a respectful manner. I also appreciate the info from JJ as we didn’t have more info before.

And as usual on this group recently, the insulting one is Harold. Harold I suggest you reply privately and spare the rest of us from your opinions.

Ramy

On Aug 8, 2024, at 2:10 PM, Harry Johnson <gliderp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just a brief comment on the case of spewing personal insults between mates, would you mates not be better served by responding privately to such events instead of spewing this kind of discussion publicly? Harold 

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[Harry Johnson]

Mr. Yanetz, I for one did not find Matt's reply to the tragic event helpful at all, rather sad to the contrary. Matt's post mentioned Mr. JJ seven times, if that wasn't personal then please tell me what is? I guess you mates are good at throwing roo dung at the wall hoping that some of it will stick. You seem not having too much of a problem displaying and posting your opinion, so I will be compelled to do the same. Have a good day young man. Harold Johnson

[Tom Seim]

Here we go again with bizarre problems related to electric gliders. I have NEVER heard before of a self-launch motor drive being interfered with by a RADIO! This smacks of maliciously limited electromagnetic interference (EMI) testing; after all, any engineer should anticipate the use of a radio in an aircraft. This accident also had other bizarre issues, such as the motor not shutting down and overheating issues. Any pilot, let alone a glider pilot, would be very confused by their propulsion not shutting down on command.

Tom 2G

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[Eric Greenwell]

I think this is an FES problem (and definitely bizarre), not an electric glider problem, and I believe it's been corrected, since none of the four owners of the the two FES gliders I flew last year mentioned it. Also, the motor did definitely shut down when the motor system power was shut off. The propeller continued to spin because it had not been "parked", which requires motor system power so the FES controller can stop the propeller, let the blades fold back along the fuselage, then slowly rotate the propeller until the blades are in the gliding position. As I recall, the failure of the "parking" system is addressed the POH's emergency section.

A similar situation exists for powered gliders that have the propeller mounted on a mast, when the propeller can't be stopped after engine shut down because the "prop stop" system has failed, or the mast retraction system has failed. I've had both those situations on my ASH26E; fortunately, in both cases, I was still near the launch airport and could safely glide back with the mast extended. An advantage of the FES is the free-wheeling propeller adds very little drag, unlike much higher drag of an extended mast.

Overheating is not limited to electric gliders, but can affect gas powered gliders, too, as pilots flying the same model of glider Tom flies can attest.

Eric G