Closed airports

[Brian Nightingale]

Eric ,
Indiantown and Okeechobee do not allow glider traffic . Indiantown is private , but Okeechobee is public . I flew gliders out of both those airports back in the day . Everyone needs to remember glider pilots are a tiny minority in GA . Any bad press at all is just one more reason to curtail our activities even further.
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[Glenn Betzoldt]

I have a N # I'll land a any public airport I want. 

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[Mark Mocho]

As long as you comply with FAA equipment requirements for Class B, C, D airspace. (Communications, Transponder, ADS-B, etc.) or declare an emergency. I am sure your diplomatic skills will come in handy when discussing your airport choice with the folks that operate it.

[Eric Greenwell]

According to the Okeechobee County Airport website:

"Restrictions: Non-powered flight activities (Parachuting, Sky-Diving, Gliding, etc.) are prohibited inside of the airport and the traffic pattern."

So, gliders are not prohibited directly, as motorgliders under power are allowed; regardless, isn't legal to land there in an emergency? 

Eric

[George Underhill]

They can list any restrictions they like but restricting certain aviation activities without FAA approval is likely illegal if the airport has accepted AIP grant money.

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[Charles Mampe]

Our thought when we talk to that kind of airport management is, "Our insurance carrier would be unhappy if we landed in a field and damaged the ship when there was a perfectly good airport next door."

I would do the airport, regardless.

If they don't want us, I would try to follow their request so we don't create enemies in aviation, we have enough outside of aviation.

If nothing else, I would declare an emergency in my mind, thus I can do pretty much anything I want/need as long as I can realistically defend it to the FAA.

[Andrzej Kobus]

They can’t prevent  glider to land there, powered or unpowered unless for safety reasons FAA approved it. Putting something on the website does mean nothing. Look into official airport directory to find out what is in place, and even then you can call FAA and ask for the bases and the official decision. Sometimes local governments dot have a clue about the law and come up with all kinds of ideas that are illegal. 

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[Tango Eight]

It’s very possible to land a glider at a busy county airport without inconveniencing other users.  It’s also very possible to do it wrong. We should all strive to do it right and brief our newcomers to do the same. Plan your landing and roll out so as to clear anyplace any other airport user is going to want to be. Airports with jet traffic may get upset if you park within the “obstacle free zone” clear of, but adjacent to the runway. 

We have a towered airport (KLEB class D) close to our club. They are simply outstanding and welcome us to visit them by car, airplane or glider. We’re good neighbors and good guests, there’s no friction at all. 

We land a glider there, usually retrieving with our L-19, once every few years. 

Evan

[Mark Mocho]

The original post was about prohibiting "glider traffic." I suspect that they are actually prohibiting glider tow operations. This is entirely reasonable, as many airports simply do not have the facilities, ramp space or are configured in such a way that staging gliders and towplanes could cause major inconvenience and disruptions to normal (powered) traffic. I doubt that an occasional landing on a public runway when there are no other safe off-field options available would cause much of a stir. Just get in contact with the tower (or announce intentions on the Unicom or CTAF frequency) and try to minimize the impact on runway and taxiway operations. If no assistance is available, clear the runway ASAP, park the glider off the pavement to allow taxiing aircraft to clear and contact airport management to arrange for glider movement and eventual retrieve. Be polite and treat everybody with respect. If faced with angry airport denizens, do not become confrontational. Explain that there were no other safe alternatives, express appreciation for any assistance and try to get out of the way as soon as feasible. If threatened with a visit from the Sheriff, agree immediately and offer to call Law Enforcement for them. The law is on your side. One big exception to this rule is landing on a "public" airport located on Native American land. Things get a little fuzzy there and your aircraft could be seized or impounded. It happened recently to a power pilot who was forced to land on Indian land.

I have landed at Santa Fe Regional (Class D) and Taos Regional (public, non-towered) airports several times with absolutely no drama (except the time I forgot to dump the water ballast at Santa Fe one time, but that's another funny story). During a contest a few years ago, some glider pilots were forced into Albuquerque International (Class C) by weather hazards. There was some minor drama due to the situation, but the FAA Tower and ATC handled everything well. Landing fees were imposed (like all other traffic at ABQ), but retrieves were not a problem. The Albuquerque Soaring Club has excellent relations with the FAA ARTCC ("Center") and they are well aware of our operations.

We are fortunate at Moriarty, as the airport simply would not exist in its present form without the gliding activity over the last 54 years. When the Albuquerque Soaring Club moved operations to 0E0 in 1972, there was nothing but a 5,000 ft. dirt runway. Today, we have a primary 7,700 x 75 ft. paved runway (8/26) a crosswind 6,200 x 75 ft. paved runway (17/35) numerous paved taxiways, paved staging and tiedown ramps, and about 60 hangars, many of which are owned by glider pilots. The reason for the airport funding for these improvements (Federal and State) is that every glider flight represents four aircraft "movements" (i.e., towplane takes off, glider takes off, towplane lands, glider lands). Because each tow is logged and billed to someone (through either the ASC or Merlin Aviation), we can document as many as 35,000 "movements" per year, making Moriarty the third busiest airport in New Mexico.

[Brian Nightingale]

My time there was with with Suncoast Soaring club , where Sonny Williamson and Russ Domer were founding members. Andre , you are right Okeechobee is federally funded and you should be able to land there . But , Bob is also correct that the local authorities might not see it that way . So unless you want to risk an arrest, Okeechobee is effectively closed . You can talk all you want about it. Glider pilots are a minority . Until you guys get through your heads that a nail sticking up is going to get pounded down , airspace violations and incidents of any kind just gives them more reason to curb our activities even more . Treasure Coast Soaring has been very proactive with FAA and Local ATC authorities , all thanks to Bob and his contacts there , in developing a system where we can work together. We follow the rules to the letter , and they work with us well . As far as I know , there has not been an airspace violation committed by a glider pilot in Florida , except for contest flights from Seminole Lake in the past few years . I’ve been very disheartened by comments from active contest pilots in response to this , making light of the issue , or trying to pretend there’s not one . I used to think that I wanted to fly competitively some day , but seeing the attitudes expressed here , now I think not . I’m not saying all contest pilots are like that , but all it takes is one .
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[*Eric Greenwell1*]

"As far as I aware..." is not very compelling. Violations are not something most pilots would advertise by talking about it or by posting it on the OLC. Chip Bearden wrote this: "I've queried the ASRS database (NASA reports) and found fewer than a dozen glider reports out of over 7,000 total airspace reports in the past 25 years." Since you didn't know about the ones that were reported, I'm pretty sure you've missed many others that were not reported.

It's hard to collect the data on how many didn't post to the OLC because of violations, but we all know it's happened in Florida, as it does elsewhere. We all know of transponders "failing" at potentially sensitive locations. West of the Mississippi, it's likely to be a Class A altitude issue; in FL, more likely B or C airspace.

To my eyes, FL airspace looks much more complex than what I normally fly in on the Western side of the country. My guess is out-of-state pilots are more like violate airspace than FL pilots, just because it's relatively hard, and they don't have much practice at it.

Eric

[Brian Nightingale]

Guys ,
It may be illegal to post no landings to a federally funded airport , but do you think that makes any difference to a rural sheriffs department ? They know zip about federal law , especially aviation. If they don’t want you there , they will make your life miserable, even if they know better. Thousands of dollars later they’ll say sorry about that and send you on your way . Don’t be so naive to think anything like that will actually protect you from any immediate consequences. You don’t walk into a biker bar wearing your pink pride t-shirt . Law says you can , but your health will likely suffer for it .
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[*Eric Greenwell1*]

I'm not aware of any incidents where a glider landing at a public airport, especially an airport without a tower, that directly or indirectly did not allow gliders, was hassled in any significant way by landing there. What incidents do you know about?

If misguided sheriffs might be a problem, couldn't that be avoided by declaring an emergency? For the Okeechobee County Airport in particular, it has two paved runways and plenty of grass where landings are allowed, so it sounds like it would be easy to land there without causing any safety issues.

But is it really a problem if Okeechobee is avoided? There are several nearby private airports that could be contacted about emergency glider landings, and perhaps a safe field can be found the in area to use instead of an airport.

Eric

[Charles Mampe]

Decades ago, I remember an incident where a glider landed at Greenwood Lake airport in NJ. Police were not involved, but the airport mad a thing of the landing. Funny thing is, his inlaws live across the street from me. Next time I saw him, I had a chat with him about FAR's and things with N numbers.

[Roderick]

Eric,

I did experience an issue back in the late 80s/early 90s when I flew my first 50km flight out of Wurtsboro. When I was in the Sussex airport area, I experienced massive sink, and had to land at Sussex. I experienced no issues from the airport, but had a Cessna pilot taxi out beside me to tell me that I cut him off in the pattern, and told me gliders didn’t belong there. He taxied back to the tarmac and left. 

George Barone flew down to retrieve me. 

That is about the only issue I’ve heard about or experienced in the US. Different story for gliders having emergency landings at military installations in europe - especially in France!

Roderick N301N

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