EuroFox Tow plane

[Piet Barber]

I have a friend in the UK who said they're selling their Pawnee.  They can't justify continuing to use it since its operating costs for the Pawnee are so much higher than the EuroFox tow planes they're using. 

1. Why don't we operate more EuroFox as tow planes in the USA? I understand the certification to allow it to be used as a tow plane isn't currently possible without changing some paperwork and nobody wants to change the paperwork.  What paperwork is it?  Is it truly futile?  Has anybody documented this publicly? American exceptionalism? That's-how-we've-always-done-it-ism?
2. I saw the post from Paul Agnew last year saying "they gave up" but I don't know who gave up, or why they gave up, or if it was too hard, or if we're just waiting for one particular guy in the FAA to retire before we try again. 
3. He said that a tow to 2000 feet uses only about 2 liters of AvGas, compared to the Pawnee's 5 liters, which seems like it could be a good cost savings over time. 
4. He said that the work needed on the AD for the Pawnee is way more than the EuroFox, partially due to the fact that it's so much older. 
5. He'd love to find somebody in the US who wants to buy an old Pawnee that has been used as a tow plane in the UK for decades.  ;) 
   

But seriously, why is the EuroFox not becoming the new fashionable tow plane in the US in the same way that it's being used in Europe?  Are we just doomed to keep flying behind Pawnees forever until well beyond when they should be in museums? 

I don't know much about tow planes, except that they go in front of the glider, so please forgive my naive questions. 

[David S]

There is more than one snag to overcome, but this one is a particular roadblock.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-D/section-91.309

14 CFR 91.309(a)(2): The towing aircraft is equipped with a tow-hitch of a kind, and installed in a manner, that is approved by the Administrator;

I had a lengthy email exchange with the US distributor for the Eurofox, which is sold here as Aerotrek.  Over the last 15 years he has had customers try to get towing approval.  None succeeded.

http://aerotrek.aero/

It might be hard to believe that with an approved aircraft, and an approved tow release mechanism, and evidence from Canada and Europe that the combination is safe, that you still can't get the installation approved by the FAA.  I hear that such things can vary from one FSDO to another.  I have no direct experience with any of that, but perhaps a club with better FSDO prospects should take a shot at it.

I have asked the SSA to work with the FAA on this more than once.  I'm not aware of it going anywhere.

My interest in this was sparked by a glowing review of the Eurofox in the Dec-Jan 2023 issue of the BGA's Sailplane and Gliding magazine, which concluded with these words:

"In fact, my only real reservation would be flying in really turbulent conditions, such as those experienced at wave sites. I’ve flown a lot in Talgarth’s easterly wave, and the rotor is notorious – and scary! Apart from that, in conclusion I have to say (somewhat sadly, as I have more time in Pawnees than any other type) that all legacy tugs are now obsolete."

Cheers,

   ...david

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[David S]

I have been proved wrong. (Funny, that seems to happen a lot lately).

If this Barnstormers ad is accurate, there appears to exist at least one SLSA with FAA acceptance for glider towing: Aeroprakt A22, N437AM.

https://www.barnstormers.com/classified-1955269-Aeroprakt-A22LS-SLSA-BRAND-NEW.html

https://aeropraktusa.com/new-and-used-aircraft-for-sale/

It's not a Eurofox, but it would seem to be a proof-of-concept on getting FAA acceptance of an SLSA for glider towing. 

   ...david

[Roy Bourgeois]

It would be helpful to know what the manufacturer's stated maximum allowed glider tow weight is. It may be only designed to tow an ultralight glider. There are many ultralight towplanes - but they will not tow a normal glider ( much less a ballasted glider). 

ROY

[Steve Dee]

I observed an AeroPracht tow plane in action near Memphis (250 ft elevation) towing a club sailplane during the summer and it was not real impressive-can't provide numbers, but the takeoff roll was a bit long and the climb rate majestic. 

Steve

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[Mark Mocho]

Steve- A better word than "majestic" would be "stately." From what I have seen in videos, I doubt it would be very impressive at Moriarty (6,200 MSL) with density altitude above 9,500 on a hot summer day.

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2025 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-5 Roy Bourgeois wrote:

It would be helpful to know what the manufacturer's stated maximum allowed glider tow weight is. It may be only designed to tow an ultralight glider. There are many ultralight towplanes - but they will not tow a normal glider ( much less a ballasted glider). 

ROY

Latest version up to 850kg glider:
https://eurofoxaviation.co.uk/eurofox-glider-tug-141-hp

[Whitney Van Brink]

The Aeroprakt A22/A32 are approved for towing, unfortunately with only 100hp option they are not well suited for towing at any significant elevation.

The best option I had found until this thread was the Bristell B23. With the Rotax 916 it should be quite the towplane. It is approved for towing in the US as both an S-LSA and a Pt 23 certificated airplane. The best thing Bristell did was to approve their tow setup on any low wing model they build or have built so it can be added used airframes.

The Eurofox with the 915 may actually be the best bang for the buck.

The catch with LSA aircraft is that any changes tot he airframe must go through the manufacturer. You cannot modify an LSA via STC or field approval. What may have been happening with prior efforts is that they may have been trying to add a tow hook that is not the same as what the factory would install. Aeropro installs the Tost tow setup that includes the retractable tow rope. I know those are not popular in the US. I believe that if you were to use the factory installed setup then you don't even need FAA approval.

[Matthew Scutter]

The Rotax 915/916 engines are turbo-normalized to make their full horsepower up to >=15,000ft.

A Pawnee will be making perhaps 65% of it's rated power at a density altitude of 10,000ft.

Not to mention the ultralight airframes are so much less draggy and lighter too.

Take a look - more climb than a Pawnee even at sea level. Cheaper overhauls. Faster descents (liquid cooled). Cheaper fuel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxXvMZ0so-g

The only downside is the capital cost.

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[Ian Molesworth]

The Eurofox has killed the Pawnee over here in the UK. We operate 2, a 912 and a 915. Although we have and still do use the 912 for heavier ships the 915 is better for obvious reasons. Worldwide more and more clubs are moving to the same style of aircraft ( Sling etc ). We tow up to Arcus M's and 'Tigger' our bright orange 915 will accellerate fast enough to have the wingtip of a big 2 seater out of the wingrunners hand in just a few yards, even on the uphill 27 runway.

I grew up on Cub and Pawnee towplanes, over 45 years of them, and have been involved with club operations running them and experienced the coffer crippling effects of their maintenance, occasional AD's and the simple effects of age on airframes.

I fly at Denbigh which is probably the best wave site south of Scotland ( and I'd argue the case on Scotland too ) and we get notorious crosswinds, wind shear and curlover a line of trees parallel to our runway. There is no doubt that the Foxes are subject to these perhaps more than a big old Pawnee may be but on the other hand they are light, with powerfull flaperons and are able to counter rolls much quicker. A towout on a strong wave day can be 'interesting' for both tug and glider. Very interesting.  But I have never felt that a heavier tug would have been better.

We run on premium Mogas so you are looking at 2l of road fuel versus 5l of avgas ......

The factory retractable tow winch keeps the dyneema tow rope in good condition and prevents fence snags and ground handling incidents.

They are quieter, far quieter than even a 4 bladed Pawnee. The 4 bladed 915 is surprisingly so.

The taildragger version is better for grass fields, trike for tarmac. 

Our 912 has worked hard over thousands of tows and has a share of 'heavy use' with mostly minor snags. 

The UK fleet must have 10's of thousands of succesful tows.

The evidence is overwhelming and has overcome even the most stuck-in-the-mud glider guiders over here. The lack of a pathway to towing in the US smacks of protectionism and 'not invented here' syndrome. I doubt the situation is going to improve with FAA cuts and tarrifs on the horizon. Seems you are stuck with outdated technology. 

Ian

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[krasw]

Any modern LSA style plane with Rotax 916 is massively overpowered and makes for great towplane. I had a chance to try out Dynamic 916 and it was much stronger that Pawnee. We also did side by side tows with two 600kg 18 m ships, Dynamic was at 500 m while Pawnee was still at bit over 400 m.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxXvMZ0so-g

[Roy Bourgeois]

I've been in the sport now 52 years. Most of that at both ends of the tow rope. I've been reading about the "obsolete Pawnees" and the "death of the Pawnee" for at least the last 40 years.  My club runs two and is looking for a third. I just bought my own after a long search for one.. There are very few for sale. They seem not quite dead yet.

ROY 

[Charlie Geres]

One of my questions is, we operate on a gravel runway for landing and taxi, I worry about the prop clearance, lots of extra wear on the propeller, just a thought?

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[Piet Barber]

It's not just the disappearance of the Pawnee that has me concerned. It's the lack of a good pipeline to train up new tow pilots that bothers me the most.  The tail dragger endorsement used to be commonplace back when the soaring clubs thought the SGS 2-33 was brand new technology.  Now, 40 years later, it's much harder to attract new tow pilot talent. 

40 years ago, it wasn't uncommon for somebody to show up to the flight line, "hey what are you guys doing?" 
"Flying gliders.  Saayyyyy... Would you like to be a tow pilot?" 
"Sure! I've got a commercial license and a tail dragger endorsement."
"Groovy! Sign right here. "  

"Far out, man"

(That's how they talked 40-50 years ago, right?) 

Nowadays, it seems that this conversation never happens. Almost never does somebody show up with a tail dragger endorsement. Going out to get one is a non-trivial task.  

"So you want me to go to a FBO 300 miles away, do 10-15 hours of training at my own cost, get a tail dragger endorsement, come back to you, fly 3000' circuits all day long for no pay in a plane that is 40 years old and has oil and hydraulic fluid puddles in the hangar?" 

It seems (in my club at least) we have a bunch of airplane pilots who got trained in Cessnas mulling about our club.  I'm sure it's not much different in other clubs around the nation.  Sure would be nice to convert these ASEL Cessna pilots to tow pilots without asking them to pay big out-of-pocket costs to become a tail dragger pilot enroute to being a tow pilot. 

Now imagine if that theoretical walk-on pilot showed up and got welcomed and fast tracked his way into being a tow pilot for a tricycle-gear style tow plane.  We have the opportunity to convert that guy into an enthusiastic glider pilot too.  If the prospective member gets scared away by being forced to go get a tail dragger endorsement, that opportunity is lost. 

I see a lot of clubs operating with one Pawnee. That old Pawnee has been flying since the Carter or Nixon administration with varying levels of repairs and wear & tear.  Once a club has a mishap or a very expensive maintenance issue with the Pawnee, that club is dust. I've never heard of anybody buying a brand new Pawnee from Argentina and using that as a tow plane.  I suppose it's possible. 

I don't see a lot of investment in the future with regards to tow planes over here; and it feels like that lack of investment is due to the fact that there's no place to put that money. I'm worried about the long term forecast. WIth regards to tow planes and glider pilots, I see geezers everywhere (and with exception of some amazing individuals) I hardly see anybody younger than me.

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[Roy Bourgeois]

Piet:

I would have agreed entirely with you 10-15 years ago. But today, with the re-emergence of "bush flying" or more accurately  "wanna-be bush flying" (I swear, I am going to see bush tires on an Ercoupe soon), there are a lot of people getting tailwheel endorsements and my tailwheel instructor friends are as busy as ever.  Our club has not had a problem getting tailwheel  pilots.   In in the end all towplanes are a compromise among acquisition cost, factory support, parts availability, pilot availability, noise, high DA performance, and operating costs.  Because of that we can "make a case" for or against any of them. My point is that it may always be like that. Today I am towing with the same make & models that I was towed by 50 years ago and they are subject to the same praises and criticisms then and now.

ROY (definitely a geezer) 

[Cliff Hilty]

So not mentioned on the website or here is the million dollar question. How much including shipping, taxes, setup for towing ect. out the door price in US?

Cliff

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[Stefan Will]

I 100% agree - fwiw, in Germany a lot of clubs are now using motor gliders (like the Super Dimona) for towing. There are a lot of options out there nowadays, while it seems like the US is stuck in the Pawnee towing a 2-33 or 1-26 era. Some of this might be similar to the trailer towing discussion earlier, where the discussion immediately went to "more horsepower = better", some of it might be slowness of FAA regulations to adapt, and some of it might be that people are balking at the up-front cost of a newer towplane vs. a 50 year old Pawnee.

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[Dave Nadler]

http://www.avionic.at/index.php/en/airplanes/eurofox-en

750kg glider...

On Tuesday, February 25, 2025 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-5 Roy Bourgeois wrote:

[Dave Nadler]

http://www.avionic.at/index.php/en/airplanes/eurofox-en

750kg glider...

On Tuesday, February 25, 2025 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-5 Roy Bourgeois wrote:

[Eric Foertsch]

Eurofox towing a Puch last Oct at Bath Wilts and North Dorset Gliding Club in a stiff crosswind - 15kts(+?)

I was impressed the Eurofox was towing the heavy glider. A club member did make a comment that implied the towplane was somewhat maxed out. There were launching on a slight dowgrade. 

[John Foster]

I think a C182 offers significant advantages here, especially the early models.  It does not require a tail wheel endorsement.  It is also a two-place aircraft, and thus check-outs are easier to do.  It has the power.  People are going to want to fly it.  The only issue comes in getting the tow hook installed.  Cessna maintenance is simpler, and parts availability is much better.  Why don't we see more of these used as tow planes?

On Wednesday, February 26, 2025 at 12:27:36 PM UTC-7 Piet Barber wrote:

[Roy Bourgeois]

The C-182 is a very good tow plane and there are no difficult problems with the tow hook install.  All 182s have a factory certification for towing and Cessna provides both drawings and a video on how to do it.  There is also an advantage that if a Schweizer hook is installed  it is done "upside down" so there is no increased release tension if the glider gets too high. And yes - potential tug pilots are plentiful.  But there are two serious disadvantages. Most of the early models have a 1500 hour TBO and all models are really expensive compared to other options. It's very rare to see a not run out 182 for less that $ix figures. 

ROY

[Charles Mampe]

Keep in mind on some larger trikes, if it was certified as a 3/4 seater, insurance can go up a lot since the assumption is you will fill the seats, so, more potential liability.

Maybe someone that has experience on this can chime in.

As to the EuroFox, how does it (or similar) deal with a bumpy grass field?

[Ian Molesworth]

Handles a rough field just fine. 

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[Bill Tisdale]

A lot of clubs do use C182s for towing. The earlier model the better. Get it light, you don't want one loaded with the latest avionics.

Civil Air Patrol rigs some of their fleet for glider towing. My experience watching them tow an L-23 with two up. Not very good. Their aircraft had all the required CAP radios etc. for Search and Rescue, communicating with local Sheriffs and rescue coordinators, etc. It was heavy and climbed like a heavy airplane. Had engine overheat problems while towing trying to maintain the slow tow speed for a 2K plus release altitude.

To the other commentor about insurance. I have seen insurance policies for towing with 4-seat aircraft limiting to two people, and that second person has to be a qualified "tow instructor" providing training. No "passengers" during glider tow operations.

Bill

[John Foster]

What would you recommend for a basic radio for a C182 tow plane?  Preferably with intercom?  Would a hand-held work, connected to a headset?

[Bill Tisdale]

Becker 6201, has built in ICS function.

[son_of_flubber]

Another Rotax-flavor towplane option to look at is 'Bristell Classic'  

160 hp turbocharged  w/tricycle gear

There are several distributors in the US https://www.bristell.com/distributors/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8WxLChmkmk

I'm not doing anything about this, but I thought someone might be interested.

[christopher behm]

I think that's the one they run at PURE GLIDE NZ

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Subject: Re: [RAS_Prime] EuroFox Tow plane

 

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