Now I have seen everything!

[John Sinclair]

Somebody sawed the wings off this wrecked JS3! 

[Gordon Wingate]

Had to get it down from the trees from what I read

On Mon, Mar 23, 2026 at 5:15 PM 'John Sinclair' via RAS_Prime <rasp...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Somebody sawed the wings off this wrecked JS3! 

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[Michael Opitz]

It has been done before.  Those rescue guys like their saws.  I know of a G 103 from

Bermuda High that had that done to get it out of the trees many years ago as well.

Mike Opitz

RO

[Verhulst]

Some years ago at 3B3 when a KitFox went into the trees on take off
(those things need fuel, you know) they used a helicopter.

Tony V.

[Charles Mampe]

Yep, I watched it go into the trees on "landing" from the airport he was trying to land at. Watched from downwind to "tree crunch".

A group of us discussed getting it out of the trees (30+' up) with minimal damage.

They got it down, but the main pin was bent. Instead of cutting the pin, as suggested, they hurried up and cut off the wings. Went from maybe a $50KUS repair to junk.

Thankfully, I didn't have to watch the cutting.

PS, pilot was physically OK.

[Mike Koerner]

Wow. That's interesting.

Do other aircraft use this twin spare configuration as opposed to the combination of a main spar and a much smaller drag spar?

Does the wing have ribs?

Which of the wing compartments shown are wet? I see the control bellows way in the back, but they may be just to prevent air leakage. 

Thanks,

Mike

[Dan Daly]

SZD55 has forked spars with two pins. Picture from spare parts catalog.

SZD-55usergroup (at symbol) groups.io 

[Hank Nixon]

They were told exactly how to get the glider apart without destroying it. They chose to ignore guidance because it would add to salvage time and the adjuster was trying to cut salvage cost. They also broke the canopy after we told them how to avoid that event. It changed what was probably a $60K repair into destroyed. 

We all pay for this kind of stuff.

UH

[Steven Leonard]

Mike, what you are seeing is just the split from the single I-beam into the "fork" to be two stubs that cross the fuselage.  Wings join similar to your old Kestrel 19.

For all the rest of us, something to keep in mind.  You are still the owner of the plane until you get the check from the insurance company.  You, as the owner, can tell the recovery company "Hold your horses!".  The adjuster may have sent the recovery crew, but the adjuster/insurance company are not yet the owners of the airplane, unless you have signed a release of ownership or gotten payment of your claim.

Adjusters are only concerned with "no hassle" close of transaction.  And in many cases, that means quick removal and haul off.  Recovery services charge by the hour, so the saw is faster than reducing damage done taking it apart.  Maybe we can all collectively refuse the services of that airplane recovery service?  I have dealt with a recovery service that damaged things that were not even installed on the plane at the time of the accident!  And I have dealt with recovery companies that looked like they had used factory supplied dollies and fixtures to transport the plane for indoor storage, as there were no marks on the plane other than those from the accident.

Steve Leonard

[Mark Mocho]

From my limited experience with insurance companies in general, they are ONLY pleasant to deal with when YOU are writing a check to them. Every other contact, inquiry, claim or complaint is excruciatingly painful. The only exception to this was my glider insurance underwriter, Costello Insurance Associates. We are lucky to have them.

[Gordon Wingate]

That is such a tragedy. A reminder to us all that unless it is an obvious total loss we should stay very involved in the recovery. But keep in mind that saving the plane makes more work for everyone involved and none of them gets any more money if they save the plane.. Even the carrier would rather write the big check for the loss than dealing with the repair process. 

The only alternative would be to get a qualified damage appraisal and sell the salvage of the plane while it was in the tree. Someone would need to build a system where you could sell it within 24 hours and have a qualified recovery service standing by. It would have to be faster and easier for the insurance carrier. I don't know how you could pull it off. 

Gordon

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[Hank Nixon]

The gliders that live to have a second life are almost always recovered by local people with expertise and not the salvage company.

This is my experience in bringing about 2 dozen back from the dead.

FWIW

UH

[Mark Mocho]

Hank- Two dozen? I think you are a jinx.

[Enrique Mertins Sr.]

Doesn't look like the salvage people tried to remove the wings... someone just decided to "total" this glider...

Worst of it all is that you and I will pay for this "total"  loss, when our insurance skyrockets for all those 250K claims...  oh well

[Deane Williams]

Hank IS the GLIDER DOCTOR !! A huge asset to our little community!

On Wednesday, March 25, 2026 at 9:38:38 AM UTC-4 Mark Mocho wrote:

[Mark Mocho]

I know that, but he probably will get a laugh out of it.

[Tony Condon]

anyone know if this glider was insured through the SSA Group policy?

[Steven Leonard]

Well, it is on Underwriters Salvage site, and that is where the SSA Group Plan stuff has been ending up, so....  My guess is, "Yes".

I have already gotten my notice saying "Your premiums are likely going up..."  Yay!

[Ryszard Krolikowski]

I know Hank for 26 yrs and I love everything he did for soaring.

Ryszard Krolikowski 

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[John Gillis]

As barbaric as it seems, looking at the other pictures from the salvage site indicate this was a total loss and not worthy of repair.  Cutting off the wings was just expeditious. 

Underwriters Salvage Company - N68MF - 2022 Jonker JS3 Rapture

[Charles Mampe]

I saw it from the ground while it was in the trees. Biggest was right wing had a limb through the LE to spar. Lots of others were "buff out" (maybe more than that, I was 30' away) and the canopy was not broken. I am sure there was some TE compression and other things to do, but fairly easy to get safe and flying, a bot more to make it really nice.

[Hank Nixon]

It takes a lot of damage to make a total loss on a $200,000 glider.

Typical decision point is somewhere around  60% of insured value.  My on site evaluation was it was a bit over 1/2 of that, before they destroyed the wings..

Maybe provide us with your experience in this area.

My experience includes over 2 dozen back from the dead, many worse than that glider.

FWIW

UH

[Roy Bourgeois]

In my 52 years in the sport (and 48 of them as a lawyer) I have seen a lot too - including insurance companies suing the rigging/salvage guys for making things much worse than they were before. But the problem with that type of suit is that it is expensive:  you have to pay lawyers,  pay expert witnesses  (to explain the before and after value as well as the correct salvage method),  and pay to keep the wreck in storage until the trial is over. Except for a very simple case- it's not worth it - even for a big screw up like this one.   An example of a case where it was worth it was a Cessna Skyhawk that ran out of fuel and landed without damage in a farm field in Massachusetts. The Insurance company paid a salvage guy to disassemble and trailer the plane out to a nearby airport. The salvage guy instead brought two jerry cans of fuel and decided to fly it out.  It did not go well . . . and the salvage guy wound up paying for the wreck.

ROY    

[Ramy Yanetz]

What’s the story behind this crash? How did it end up  in the trees? 

Looks like a JS3 RES, a 300K+ glider. 

Ramy

[George Underhill]

It's a JS-3 with the MD TJ42 turbine.  Still expensive though.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rasprime/4793ad10-ad0d-4efb-bfdc-86a7a8dc9d91n%40googlegroups.com.

[christopher behm]

Is this that one with the fishy sounding NTSB report? Where he said he forgot to retract the jet sustainer, then had flaps on, then lifted the flaps, but went too far and reflexed the flaps, and that deployed the spoilers? (THAT sounds really fishy)

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From: rasp...@googlegroups.com <rasp...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of George Underhill <nwa32...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2026 6:17:10 PM
To: rasp...@googlegroups.com <rasp...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [RAS_Prime] Re: Now I have seen everything!

 

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[Ramy Yanetz]

Oh I recall this accident from few months ago. I thought this one was more recent. 

Classic case of mixing spoilers and flaps handles no doubt. Not too difficult to do if you have low experience in the glider and  get into a tunnel vision. The NTSB story clearly doesn’t add up. 

Ramy

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[Hank Nixon]

I interviewed the pilot after the event at the request of the event organizers.

The glider was new to him, having transitioned from an ASW-24. He had about 6 flights in type. Much more complex glider with different controls.

He had done only about half a dozen flights during the season due to family obligations.

This is a complex site with terrain considerations in the pattern. He had flown there only a few times before.

The pilot returned to the airport area quite low from the north, approaching the north/south runway. He was too low for a normal pattern, especially considering the high ground in the area of downwind and base.

The proper action would have been to not continue on downwind, but turn right onto a base leg, and land to the south.

Continuation bias and maybe tunnel vision a factor.

Already low, with limited view of the runway, due to a hill, feeling rushed, he apparently grabbed the spoiler handle instead of flaps.

Already low, now with increased sink rate.

Turning base, very near terrain, he made a shallow turn because he was worried about clearance to trees below

At the point of deciding to continue the turn to final, he concluded that he would not make the turn, so he straightened out and landed in trees and fairly low energy.

Had he continued the turn and failed he likely could have impacted in the launch grid.

My conclusions:

Older pilot

Not current

New, much more complex glider

Tricky site

My guidance to the pilot was to consider reverting to a less demanding glider and fly much more to regain and retain proficiency.

FWIW

UH

[Eric Mozer]

Good report on the event Hank.

To add to your conclusions, the pilot lacked recognition of his situation when he still had an option on board.  From what I have read, the JS3 had a JET sustainer…for which he paid a large sum of money to provide an ‘out’.   With earlier recognition and more altitude, the JET could have been activated and could have provided him extra distance or altitude to get in to a better position for a normal pattern and  landing.

FWIW

EM

On Mar 27, 2026, at 09:19, Hank Nixon <uncl...@earthlink.net> wrote:

I interviewed the pilot after the event at the request of the event organizers.

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[chris behm]

Can someone post the NTSB report?

Thanks. Couldn't find it...

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[George Underhill]

Going from a standard class AS-W24 to a high performance 15/18m ship is a big jump.  The pattern and operating speeds are quite different too.  I'm continuing the transition from AS-W27 to JS3 and can say there is a lot to learn regarding safe operation and how it handles.

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[Gordon Wingate]

I have the same plane and made the same flap spoiler mixup mistake at about 30 hours in on my 13th landing in it, and I’m a CFI with 1500 hrs and fly weekly year round for the most part. The JS3 is a dream to fly but you’ve got to be on your game to land. It takes a lot of landings to hone the skill. 

The standard stabilized approach is flaps at 4, 55 kts, and spoilers to descend. Once on final with no xwind and the runway made you can move flaps to 5 or L to land steeper. To do so you can lock the spoilers partially open, then add flaps, then unlock spoilers to land. As soon as you touch down you go full negative flaps for aileron effectiveness, use spoilers as needed, and judiciously use the wheel brake.I recommend a lot of landings at flap position 4 before introducing the landing flaps.

I was making my 13th landing in the JS3 at an XC camp at a new airport. The pattern got busy and I found myself #2 of 3 gliders landing. #1 called landing long on the asphalt, then #3 called landing on the grass. That left me to land short on the asphalt while still learning to land it. I set up the pattern and approach. Turning final I went to L flaps to land short. I then saw myself descending a bit too quickly. Instead of closing the spoilers I moved the flaps to position 1 thinking they were the spoilers.  Apparently I had kept my hand on the flap handle after the earlier L flap change. Things immediately got REALLY quiet! I quickly realized what I had done and pulled the flaps all the way back open and then closed up the spoilers while my heart was pounding. I planted pretty hard and hit the wheel brake to land short while still having the flaps in L, resulting in my first paint scuff under the nose. It was a safe landing with mostly damage only to my pride but I was shaken a bit realizing what could have happened, which was what we see here. So I understand how it can happen.

My question is that the NTSB report says he had the jet out and had operated it earlier for about 90 seconds. I'm not sure why he was low getting back if he had the jet and had used it. I was also told by the JS rep that when deployed and not running  the jet has as much drag as the gear being down. 

Glad the pilot is okay and made a landing he could walk away from.

Gordon Wingate

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[George Underhill]

The report number I found is ERA25LA354 but it does not work on the NTSB search.  A Google search brings up the final report PDF, but as many have mentioned it clearly has errors.

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[Ramy Yanetz]

Thanks Hank for the report. I think accidents like this should be published as there are important lessons to learn.

1- grabbing the wrong handle is real and not uncommon. It is importantly to be able to recognize that on time. When flying a new glider it is importantly to practice grabbing flap and spoiler handles without looking. 

2- if too low abbreviate the pattern as Hank pointed out.

3 - so much for the “wait for the NTSB report”. Can’t  trust NTSB reports on glider accidents. The description of the accident  is complete BS and can do more harm than good for anyone trying to learn from this. I sure hope that someone pointed the discrepancies to NTSB and  the final report will be corrected. 

I happen to know this glider and flown with his previous owner few times. Sad to see it was needlessly destroyed. 

Ramy

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[Stefan Will]

The report does come up when you paste the number here: https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-main-public/basic-search

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[Charles Mampe]

From my viewpoint on the ground near landing area while this was going on:

Low pattern entry

Low downwind

Jammed a bit because of higher terrain (couple hundred feet) and trees between runway and downwind

Not doing a steeper bank turn from downwind to final (a 180*) made base wide which ended up aimed at trees

"If" he got over trees, likely landing area was in back of grid with many gliders and people

My opinion, started low, no correction downwind to final turn.

Second similar pattern in a row

Not a challenging day there by any means. I have flown there a decade or so on really sporting days, this was NOT one of them.

[Charles Mampe]

NOTE: when I say "second similar pattern in a row", a different pilot in a different ship did a low jammed pattern just before the crash pattern. I spoke to the other pilot later about what he did.

I'm an ex CFIG, but foremost, I want to keep all of us safe.

[Ramy Yanetz]

I am also a relatively new JS3 pilots and agree with most of what Gordon says, except that once I set the flap position for landing (also recommending 4) I no longer remove my hand from the spoiler handle, especially on final. The ability to lock the spoiler partially open, while handy, can also cause you to forget it. 

FWIW

Ramy

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[Steven Leonard]

For those who sometimes struggle with US Government websites, here are three of the 4 documents in the docket (I did not save the weather document) and the Final Report.  (Jeez.  Was I really up at 1:16:37 AM to download that back in December?  Guess so!).  Scroll to page 8 of the "JS3 NewCastle 6120_Redacted..." file for the pilot narrative.  Notice that it doesn't really match the Final Report, or what was reported from the contest site immediately after the accident.  Accidents can happen, and once you have had one, you become MUCH more understanding of how they can happen.  And can provide you insight into what probably happened in others.  Hank and Charles have seen plenty in their years.

And, Hank, if you are needing a couple of more to "bring back from the dead", let me know.  I have a couple that should both be relatively easy for a pro like you.  Mostly tail end stuff that I picked up in December last year.

Steve Leonard

[Charles Mampe]

Steve, thanks for the late night and links to reports.

I fly a ASW-24EE (24E converted from gas to electric....). I have done a few patterns and landings with motor out prop windmilling (not ideal). I realize this, fly assuming 1/2 dive brakes. Not an issue.

Hank discussed with this pilot.

I'm keeping this to facts, not opinions.

Opinions for me are face to face.

[Charles Mampe]

And yes, I admit to a gear up landing in turbulence on final in a ASW-20 when my hand came off spoilers and landed on gear handle (same side of cockpit). Peeps on the ground watched gear cycle on final until a smooth landing.

[Ramy Yanetz]

While I would not post judgement on the mistakes the pilot made due to obvious tunnel vision since this can happen to anyone (such as simply restarting the jet he just tested once realized he was too low) I find it ironic that later after he had time to think through this, from all the obvious mistakes which contributed to the accident he blamed his checklist and forgetting to stow the jet (which creates minimal drag) as the main contributing factor. 

Ramy

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[Steven Leonard]

Just to be clear, as I think it may have come out the other way.  Hank and Charlie have seen other people demonstrate new and creative ways of injuring themselves and or their planes.  They have been in this business a LONG time, have seen how students and rated pilots can surprise you by doing something completely unexpected and contrary to their training and previous action in similar situation.  They have run clubs, been CFIGs, Commercial operations as owner/operator, and anything else you can imagine soaring related.  Including repair and custom mod shop.

We are all humans and if we do things enough we will make mistakes.  Hopefully, our mistakes are all minor and do not cascade to bigger issues.  Sometime, ask me about my hand on the flaps instead of the spoilers story.  Or my landing beyond the grid because for some reason, the spoilers wouldn't open.  And I did verify my hand was on the right handle.  But, they worked perfectly after I landed.

Steve Leonard

[n5...@comcast.net]

What ever happened to a pilot new to an unfamiliar complex glider doing 8-10 high pattern tows over one or two days and practicing with the glider systems BEFORE you set out to "conquer" the XC or contest skies? Even if you are familiar with the glider it is good practice to do 3 or 4 very short flights at the start of the season to get back in the swing of things. A hop with a glider instructor isn't a bad idea either. As we age, it is even more important to give these flights a priority at the start of the season. Put your egos in your car's glove box and do some season beginning exercises to fly safe.

Craig

[Bojack]

Well said.  Great concept!

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[Charles Mampe]

Some places still do that.

Some of our pilots still do that.

We have "upset" some pilots that wanted a ship beyond their level and we wanted more training to be ready.

[Tom]

Confusing the flap and the spoiler indicates a pilot w/o the ability to handle the glider. Ground familiarization should clearly burn the difference into the brain of the pilot. But shit happens. If you do something in flight and get a reaction that you don't expect, UNDO what you did and REEVALUATE! After I sold my ASH26e, the new owner allowed a friend to fly it, and he did exactly this: pulled the dive brake (not spoiler) handle, instead of the flap handle, on downwind. Instead of evaluating his error, he immediately turned to the runway from midfield, still pulling the dive brake full out! A ground observer thought he was going to fly into the hangars, where he was standing, but the pilot hit a berm instead, saving the hangar, other gliders, and the observer.

Now, on the 26e you have to REALLY use A LOT of force to open the dive brakes, while the flaps move effortlessly. This SHOULD have been a major clue to the accident pilot, but his brain overruled common sense, and he pulled it anyway. I suspect the JS3 is the same, as dive brakes have an overcenter lock that requires considerable force to overcome.

Tom 2G

[Gordon Wingate]

In the JS3 there is an initial detent to open spoilers, of course. but the spoilers have multiple locking points just like the flaps have.  The difficulty is that when landing with L flaps there are at least 6 times you switch between spoilers and flaps as you land:

 1. Open flaps to setting 4 on downwind

 2. Open spoilers to establish stabilized descent on downwind and base legs

 3. On short final lock the airbrakes in partial position and so you can move flaps to L

 4. Unlock spoilers again to land 

 5. Unlock flaps and move to full negative for lateral control in the rollout

 6. Back to spoilers to adjust speed of rollout

You can add 2 more changes if you move flaps from 4 to 5 on short final, then back to spoilers, then move flaps again from from 5 to L, then back to spoilers to land. Avoid this by planning your final flap setting early so you are only making one change. Or like Ramy stated, if you don’t need a steep descent and have plenty of runway just keep it in 4 throughout and only have 4 changes. Keep in mind that you need to learn how to do a steep and short approach at some point and it is a skill you should develop.

Add to the stress by being new in the plane, being low, a crowded pattern, a blocked runway, obstacles, heat, dehydration, low recency of experience, etc, etc. As Steve says, we’ve all been there and made mistakes that we’ve survived. I cut other pilots a lot of slack for these as I’ve been under this load many times and am grateful for my good fortune. 

The lesson here is always give yourself extra time and altitude to not be rushed if you can, and fly a lot, which is especially important for us older pilots. From a FASTTeam webinar on aging pilots I learned that the safety record for aging pilots is very good for the ones who fly a lot. But the rust accumulates much quicker for us if we don’t and the statistics reflect this.

Also, I have found that flying ‘my’ glider in Condor is a great way to get familiar with and rehearse landing and all aspects of flying it. With the VR headset it is an incredibly immersive and realistic experience.

Gordon Wingate

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[Frederic Bick]

Gordon and Ramy.- thanks for the comments. I just purchased a JS3 RES. I had two self-launches at Tullahoma after a day and a half tutoring by Leo. On the second landing, I was higher on final than planned, so pulled the brakes full and nothing happened re rate of descent. (Note: I had already opened the brakes to the first or second notch, so I didn’t have to overcome the initial unlocking force.) As I worked the “brake” handle, I realized it was moving back and forth too easily. My brain said “Dummy, you’re on the flaps!” So I quickly shifted my hand position to get the brakes after setting the flaps to 4 (which is what I used in my JS1 at Moriarty). From there the brakes worked fine. I am an older pilot, and I’m glad that the flap and brake position on the JS1 and 3 are similar. Tullahoma was a new airport to me, and runways 24 and 18, which cross, were both being used by power traffic as the winds were shifting periodically. Plus there is a jump school. So this was a very busy environment for first flights in a new glider. Compounding this was an ASI in kph rather than kt, plus other avionics that were new to me. (Of course, basic aviating does not require fancy avionics - airspeed and altitude estimation (TLAR) work fine.) But I know I will be spending some time hangar flying while sitting in the cockpit for control familiarization, and going over RES operation. While the RES operation is straightforward, there are safety features built in which can cause confusion if the pilot isn’t fully aware of how the system operates. An associated note: the JS3 has notched flaps and air brake systems. So feeling for a notch will not tell the pilot whether on the flaps or brakes. I like the airbrakes being notched, but that can be a misleading factor when going by feel.

Eric Bick

[Tom]

It was pointed out to me that I neglected to mention a pretty obvious cross-check: visually checking if the dive brakes (i.e. spoilers) have been deployed. Now, if someone is thinking they are operating the flaps, they won't be looking at the dive brakes. But if something happens that is unexpected, namely, they start dropping out of the sky, by all means, look at the dive brakes and see if they are out. But the simplest action is to UNDO what you just did! Put the controls back to where they were before things started going south.

The mind will play tricks on us, and we should be prepared for this. Rather than accept that YOU screwed up, you may think the glider is somehow broken and not doing what you commanded it to do. This is just human nature. Also, in an emergency, the normal pathways of the neurons in the brain get ignored, and the panic pathways take over. This is easy to dismiss sitting in our easy chair, calmly reading about an accident write-up, but it is a whole different kettle of fish if YOU are experiencing it at the time. Some are just better at coping with emergencies than others. Personally, I have experienced a number of such life-threatening emergencies and know that I don't panic. You will only know how you react IF you actually experience it. Some can be simulated, and this may reveal how you will react. But understand, simulation is not the real thing.

Tom 2G

[Rex Mayes]

When I learned to fly gliders in 1982, my instructor taught to always open the brakes and look out at the wing to see how much it is deployed.  He taught to deploy 1/2 brakes just before the turn to base to establish the approach profile so that when established on base the approach profile can be evaluated and adjusted if necessary.  The point is that if you want to use 1/2 brake deployment, you must visually check the brake on the wing and not by how far you think you have pulled the handle back, but by how far the airbrake extends out of the top of the wing. Each glider has a different feel and control travel to reach 1/2 brakes deflection. The only way to know for sure is by looking.  

Also it takes no time to glance at the wing as you are already looking out the window in the direction of the airport.

I am not looking to discuss how a landing pattern should be executed.  There are many techniques taught and practiced. Once I started instructing, I found the 1/2 brake approach to be the most comfortable and easiest to teach, so that is what we have done for the past 40 years.

The point I want to make, and one that has not been mentioned by the commenters on this thread, is that a habit of visually confirming the spoiler is deployed as intended, every time it is actuated, or at least the first time it is actuated in the landing sequence (after the initial unlock and test before entering the pattern) would virtually eliminate the problem of actuating the flaps instead of the brake.

I have interviewed 3 pilots who had serious negative outcomes due to mistaking the flap handle for the airbrake handle.  All where experience pilots flying their glider for many years.  All 3 admitted that visually checking the airbrake deflection by glancing out at the wing was not something they did or even thought of doing.  All said that they knew the airbrakes were deployed because of the feedback they felt when the handle was moved. 2 of these pilots were instructors who, of course, never taught this procedure.  

I see nothing to lose by including this simple cross-check.

Rex Mayes

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[Jonathan Audy]

On Rex’s comment - I think you can generalize this logic for many of our operations, into: 

Act, Verify.

In other words - is there a way to verify you did what you thought you did?

Ideally, Verify should be verifying the result of an action rather than the action itself.

Looking at the spoilers is a perfect and easy verify of operating the spoilers, especially for a half-out position.

This applies to landing gear too.

- how do you verify you lowered the landing gear, rather than raised it?

- position of a control does not necessarily verify anything - especially if you are in a different glider.

Verify usually involves a visual check, but can also involve a sound change.

While we can’t see the landing gear, we can verify other things...

- is the gear lever now adjacent to a sticker that says gear down?

- did the glider noise get quieter or noisier when you made the action to lower the gear.

I now always do the verify part with my checklists, at the moment of checking.

For example, pitot tube in - look to see the pitot tube is in, rather than recalling from 5 min ago that you put the pitot tube in - even 5 mins ago memory is not that trustworthy, especially if your routine was interrupted.

-Jonathan.

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[Mark Mocho]

Gren Seibels (remember him?) had a story about a glider on final approach coming in too high. In amazement, he watched the landing gear extend, retract, extend again and retract, then partially extend as the glider overshot and then touched down. Whereupon the gear collapsed because it was not fully down and locked. No airbrake was observed. So, yeah, a visual check of the airbrakes is a fine idea.

[Ramy Yanetz]

All excellent points. Which highlights the importance to have an accurate accident report emphasizing  the real mistakes and how to avoid them instead of a pilot blaming the drag from his jet as the cause for his crash. I hope he learns from his real mistakes before he flies again. 

Ramy

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[Hank Nixon]

It is useful to consider the issue of control mix up and the need to avoid it.

Also knowing and verifying the configuration when landing.

The engine being out had, in my view, no meaningful affect on the outcome.

The primary cause of this accident was getting into the pattern too low and not taking the option to use the available alternate of landing safely in the opposite direction.

Two very experienced observers predicted when he was on downwind that there was a high probability of a crash due to being way too low.

The other stuff related to controls was secondary and made a bad situation worse.

I have seen a trend where pilots get comfortable with low patterns (normalcy of deviation) that results in fewer options when things go wrong.

If you see a friend flying low patterns, be a real friend and call it out. You may save a life.

Crabby old instructor.  UH

[john sinclair]

One of my lasting soaring memories is watching a ASW-20 land at Calistoga, Ca. It looked like a perfect landing, one foot in the air, flaps down, ship doing about 40 knots………perfect! But, it didn't touch down, it just kept floating one foot in the air! As it passed me, I saw the landing gear  partially retract, then lower back to about half-down position! THEN IT FLEW RIGHT INTO THE PERIMETER FENCE!

The pilot had ahold of the GEAR handle, thinking it was the SPOILER handle!

Much has been written about how to solve the problem, but there is an area that I haven't seen addressed. It’s called, SHAPE CODING! Make the shape of the handles different? In many ships they are all the same shape located in the same general area,  and sometimes even the same color (black) How about;

GEAR………..ROUND………tube shape in (green)

FLAPS……….AIRFOIL SHAPED…………in (blue)

SPOILERS………RECTANGULAR…………in (red)

I have some ideas on how to modify the existing handles to achieve the desired new shapes……..even covering the modified handles with heat-shrink……….could even use different colors?………..  Bet a clever guy like Rex would have some ideas on making spiffy new handles ?

 

Sent from my iPad

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[Dan Daly]

CS 22 (formerly JAR 22) speaks to this, in part:

CS 22.780 Colour marking and arrangement of cockpit controls (See AMC 22.780)
attached.
CS 22.781 Cockpit control knob shape (See AMC 22.781)

The towing cable release control must be so designed to be capable of operation by a gloved hand exerting the force specified in CS 22.143(c).

[Eric Greenwell]

I"ll bet the pilot had a lot hours in a Libelle 301, which has the spoiler handle where the ASW20 has the gear handle.

Color coding has been used for decades. My 1995 ASH26E uses that code, and I think my 1984 ASW20C used the same coding. Shape coding does not seem to be a requirement; at least, not in 1995 and earlier gliders.

[Mark Mocho]

Shape coding is kind of like asking for Braille enabled cockpit displays. You know, like the Braille symbology found on drive-up ATM machines.

PS. The worst thing you can discover while using Braille is a notice that says, "DO NOT TOUCH!"

[George Haeh]

Cockpit layout can be a help or a trap - especially moving between different types. 

I know one highly experienced instructor whose muscle memory for adjusting rudder pedals on his private ship had him releasing very low in a trainer - $50,000 repair. 

I like how Schleicher has put significant separation between the various controls in the 27.

I put large patches of red and green tape by the appropriate gear lever positions (a hard lesson learned in a 20). Between the color coding, gear warning and juice in the batteries I've got my fingers crossed. 

There ain't no such thing as glider pilot proof. 

In my transitions to a new flapped ship (20 & 27), I flew a couple high circuits working the flaps and spoilers so I knew what aircraft response to expect on final. 

--

  George Haeh

  403-370-9033

  gh...@fastmail.fm

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[Uli N]

>>  PS. The worst thing you can discover while using Braille is a notice that says, "DO NOT TOUCH!" <<

Or 'Wet Paint'! 

Uli

'AS'