ADS-B Besides Trig?

[John DeRosa]

Do you know of ADS-B equipment for a glider other than Trig? 

Thanks, John

[Dan Kvinge]

John and others,

First, thank you so much for starting this site a few years back!  I didn't pay much attention to it until the recent collapse of RAS due to 99% spam.  Now this is the place to go!

And regarding ADS-B...I think most people have heard of uAvionix, and about a year ago they bragged they had sold their 50,000th ADS-B system worldwide.   They specialize in lower cost, and lower power devices for all types of aircraft including unmanned.    They are the ones who sell SkyEcho in the UK, NZ and AU (but FAA does not allow in USA).

I encourage everyone to read this great short article by uAvionix about low-cost and low-power ADS-B solutions.  He's talking mostly about drones, but mentions gliders, balloons, and Light Sport too.   He also explains TABS, which was supposed to be this FAA approved solution but was not commercially viable.   Please read this and help us push the FAA to allow the use of these devices in the USA, especially for aircraft that will never go into a tower-controlled airport (like most gliders).  And if not the totally portable versions let us use a permanently installed non-transponder system.  We don't need a transponder to be visible to other aircraft, or towers.

https://uavionix.com/electronic-conspicuity-vs-tabs-2/

[Bob Youngblood]

Dan, there is a lot going on behind the scenes with regard to SkyEcho, for three years this issue has been gaining the interest of people in the right places including a powerful politician. A proposal has already been made for the allocation of test units in a specific area. That is about all I can say about this issue, the good news is that there is a valid case and willingness to proceed is gaining ground. OBTP

[Dan Kvinge]

Our small soaring club in Wisconsin USA is adding ADSB-out to our gliders.   Last year we installed a full-power 250W TRIG TT22 transponder system in our aluminum Blanik L23, at a cost of almost $6000.  The system works fine (after a warranty glitch), but it is overkill for us since we have never gone into controlled airspace and have no plans to do so.      We appreciate being seen by other aircraft, and are also working on how to get ADSB-in on a small glider panel.  That's a whole different conversation about how to keep your head out of the cockpit and not focused on panel displays.

Our tow plane uses a uAvionix SkyBeacon that is approved by FAA, used by thousands of powered planes, costs about $2000, and is easy to install and configure.   In normal operation it gets the squawk code from the transponder and incorporates that into the ADSB-out signal.  So...why not put a SkyBeacon on a glider and save $4000?  Would the FAA have any objections using it with NO TRANSPONDER?   I asked our local FSDO and was told that was not an issue....just stay out of controlled airspace, and file a standard 337 Form with the Oklahoma FAA office.

Then I asked uAvionix the same question, and they confirmed it is being done.  They provided a simple setup guide on how to configure the SkyBeacon without a transponder, and a sample 337 Form for the installer to submit to FAA.   When used without a transponder the squawk code is input from the phone setup app and cannot be changed in the air.  This is fine for gliders since our code is 1202 and the FAA has already agreed it does not ever need to be changed.  Other points in its favor;  it uses the 978 MHz UAT frequency and not the crowded 1090 MHz,  and it is low power...only 25W transmit compared to Trig's 250W.   This means its range is also only 20-40 miles, not 250 miles, which also is fine for gliders and we're not cluttering up the skies with unneccesary ADSB signals.

We're considering installing this in the interior of our fiberglass Grob, probably in the oxygen cylinder area, since we have not used the oxygen bottle in the past 10 years.

Doesn't this sound like a great ADSB solution for a fiberglass glider?   (not so easy on aluminum or carbon fiber)

Has anyone else considered using SkyBeacon on a glider in the USA? 

My real hope is that the FAA wakes up to a portable $750 Electronic Conspicuity device like SkyEcho, but that probably won't happen for years.

Dan

[SS]

I'm struggling to understand how a Trig TT22 transponder installation costs nearly $6000.  I got the TT22, a rod type transponder antenna, a TN72 GPS receiver, and a T50 GPS antenna for well under $3000 for my Experimental glider.  It costs that much more for the L23?

But using a SkyBeacon without a transponder is an interesting idea, if you're OK with not having a transponder.

[Sarah Anderson]

$6k struck me as high too.  But for a certificated non-EXP installation, you're going to need that $2k TN70 GPS receiver, not the TN72.

So it's possible.

The only problem with the "skybeacon only" idea is that UAT is 978 Mhz. Common general aviation "dual band" ADSB-in will directly receive both 978/1090, but the Flarm (Fusion/classic option) adsb receivers are 1090 only.  They will require a line-of-sight FAA tower relay on the other frequency.

I've noticed less than ideal adsb visibility on our club towplane, which has one of these. Especially in the pattern.

[Moshe Braner]

That's the fault of the design of the ADS-B system, split as it is between 1090 and UAT.   Maybe that's why UAT, AFAIK, is used in only a small percentage of ADS-B installations in the US?  If the aircraft is *also* equipped with FLARM (another $2K?) then that would solve the problem with visibility to other aircraft which are only equipped with FLARM.  It's a shame that more than one system is needed.

There is movement in Europe to develop "ADS-L", a low-power low-cost approach for aircraft to "see" each other directly.  Sort of like FLARM, but standardized and universal.  Or so is the intent.  Will it happen?  Will FLARM fade away?

[Richard Pfiffner]

One can used the TT22/TN72/Inexpensive GPS antenna/custom wiring harness/ADSB antenna on a certified aircraft.  But you have to set it up as a TABS installation and you cannot fly in Class A, B, C airspace.

Cost about $3340

Guidance about this installation:

https://www.craggyaero.com/Trig/TN72%20Glider%20installation%20-%20ADS-B%20guidance%20slides%20-%20August%202018.pdf

Richard

www.craggyaero.com

[John DeRosa]

Richard (Craggyaero.com),

That PDF flow chart is great stuff.  Thanks. I was surprised at one thing about using either the TT21 or TT22 for ADS-B.  I know I was told by someone, somewhere, sometime, that I could ONLY use a TT22 to have ADS-B in my glider.  I lucked out finding a used TT22.

I see now that this information was not true, either a TT21 or TT22 can be used to provide ADS-B.  But there are transponder/ADS-B specification differences between the TT21 and TT22  (other than the near doubling of the power output of the TT22).  As I am a lowly "bit-pusher" electrical engineer, rather than the god-like double-E RF types, these differences between the TT21 and TT22 are Greek to me.  

So a "simple" question >>> Ignoring experimental versus certification category details are there limitations we need to worry about between using a TT21 or TT22 if the pilot does NOT "...wish to fly in the following airspace; Class B, Class C, the Gulf of Mexico and above 18,000 feet after 2020..." ?  

Thanks again, John (OHM) 

[Rick Roelke]

When it comes to asd-b in gliders Darryl Ramm was the godlike one.  I don't know if he has come over to prime, but I recall him saying that the price difference between 
A TT-21 and TT-22 was not that much and so go with the 22.  You can upgrade the 21 to a 22 later but it cost much more to do it later.

RR

[Jonathan Audy]

I installed the TT22 in my LS8 setup last summer by myself, Richard of Craggy was a tremendous help, and supplied a pre-wired harness making things considerably easier. The toughest part was finding a spot to mount the antenna & ground plane. I ended up putting it aft of the wheel well, as there was nowhere possible in the cockpit area. Got a certification done at livermore airport.

Jonathan.

On Dec 27, 2023, at 3:51 PM, Rick Roelke <rickr...@gmail.com> wrote:

When it comes to asd-b in gliders Darryl Ramm was the godlike one.  I don't know if he has come over to prime, but I recall him saying that the price difference between 

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[Richard Pfiffner]

John,

It is my recommendation is that if you use a TT21 it has to be setup as a TABS  in both certificated and experiment gliders.  You cannot fly in class A, B, C airspace.   The TT21 may be cheaper but is not always available.

A TT22/TN72 in an experimental glider is a compliant solution in all airspace.

Many are using a Trig ACD ( Air Control Display) with a TT22 to save panel space.   The ACD can also control a Ty91 transceiver, it is a ETSO altimeter and controls the TT22, all from one 57mm instrument hole.  The TT22 uses the altimeter out put from the ACD.

https://www.craggyaero.com/acd_altimeter.htm

Happy New Year

Richard

www.craggyaero.com

[Luis]

Is there anything new going on re SkyEcho? Will something happen in the next year that didn't in the last 10?
What is otherwise the cheapest alternative to add an ADSB-Out or  any Transponder to complement Powerflarm fo a standard re glider to fly below 15 k ft/ outside B/C?
Is Skybeacon without transponder still an option? 

[soa...@yahoo.com]

The FAA Reauthorization Act of 2024, section 810 reads in part as follows:

SEC. 810. DEVELOPMENT OF LOW-COST VOLUNTARY ADS–B.
(a) IN GENERAL.—Not later than 2 years after the date of
enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall prepare a report
on the development of a suitable position reporting system for
voluntary use in covered airspace to facilitate traffic awareness.
(b) TECHNICAL ADVICE.—In preparing the report under sub-
section (a), the Administrator shall solicit technical advice from
representatives from—
(1) industry groups, including pilots, aircraft owners, avi-
onics manufacturers; and
(2) any others determined necessary by the Administrator.
(c) REQUIREMENTS.—In preparing the report under subsection
(a), the Administrator shall—
(1) research and catalog domestic and international equip-
ment, standards, and systems analogous to ADS–B available
as of the date on which the report is completed;
(2) address strengths and weaknesses of such equipment,
standards, and systems, including with respect to cost;
(3) to enable the development and voluntary use of portable,
installed, low-cost position reporting systems for use in covered

airspace—

You can read the rest of section 810 online.  GAMA put together a group to provide the "(b) TECHNICAL ADVICE" to the FAA as noted above.  SSA, AOPA, EAA and others (incl. Uavionixs) were included in those discussions.  The report is scheduled to be submitted to Congress by May, 2026.

During the first meeting I asked "what is preventing the FAA from approving SkyEcho?" and noted that it was approved by Australia, New Zealand, and the UK. The FAA gave their standard answer that portable units are not reliable enough (non-certified installation could result in signal dropout).  Those of us who attended the meetings know what the issue is, and it is not the equipment.

[Richard Pfiffner]

The Trig TT23 with TC20 control head price is $3200

www.craggyaero.com

The  UAX-90119-01  with AV-20-E = $3294  is more than the TT23/TC20 and is not certified for use in the USA yet.

The other uAvioni products such as tail beacons, wing installations would probably not work in gliders.

So much to be said for low cost.

Richard

www.craggyaero.com

[Brian Nightingale]

I talked to OBTP about Sky Echo and he's really knowledgeable. Reach out to him.

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