ADS-B in/out, XPDR mode C, XPDR mode S, and Flarm

[Jeffrey Banks]

Hi all,

I'm ordering for a new glider. 

Besides a clear unobstructed view in my canopy, what priority

should I have for electronic anti-collision avionics?

At this time I'm thinking of scratching the ADS-B out.

Then the XPDR draws my battery down so I'd like to scratch that too.

I really like anticollision strobes and anticollision paint.

I'd like to hear some thoughts.

Sincerely

Jeff Banks

"N9"

[Mark Mocho]

Flarm for sure, but I wouldn't discount at least a Mode S transponder. Only gliders "see" Flarm, while all of the "Heavies" (Airliners) will pick up the Mode S and will be directed away from you by TCAS and/or ATC. ADS-B is still something you should consider, as it is even better than Mode S.

As far as strobes and anticollision paint go, they are pretty much ineffective in sunlight. Sure, the canopy flasher from Sotecc works ok, but only in a head-on scenario, and best under a cloud deck. I have experimented with other strobes from Whelen and other manufacturers of emergency lighting, and have found that as anticollision warning devices, they are pretty ineffective in sunlight. They may attract attention, but at a VERY limited range. Invariably, the distance at which an airliner or other "fast mover" will see it is far too close to do anything about it. That goes for the reflective paint. By the time someone is close enough to see and admire it, it is too late.

I suggest you reconsider Mode S and ADS-B. Batteries (especially LiFePo4 chemistry) are much lighter than the old standby Lead Acid (AGM/SLA) cells, and the power does not drop off as quickly. This matters in instruments that do not tolerate a voltage drop (under 11 volts.) Modern Mode S transponders and radios (Trig) handle power declines better than older equipment, but it is still a concern. You should be able to find enough space in the fuselage for a second avionics battery. My Pegasus isn't exactly "roomy" but I have two 15Ah LiFePo4 batteries and one 9 Ah AGM/SLA. Never out of juice!

[Eric Greenwell]

Get the XPDR and ADSB! They are your best defense against airliners like you used to fly, most GA aircraft, and even many gliders. They don't draw enough current to worry about. A new glider has plenty of places to put far more battery power than you will ever need in your longest flight.

Strobes of some sort seem worth considering, and ones that let you land after sunset would give you more flexibility at the end of a flight. If you have strobes, anti-collision paint seems redundant.

Eric G

[n5...@comcast.net]

I agree with Eric. Get a XPDR and ADS-B.  My high priority for my new glider is to upgrade (removable) battery capacity. Overkill is easy to implement.

Many of us won't fly Minden / Air Sailing anymore unless we fly with a XPDR. I'm sure there are other areas with similar concerns.

Craig

[George Haeh]

Air Avionics will be releasing a new transponder in Spring 2025. It may be worth waiting for:

https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=178

I run a Trig TT-22 and TN-72. The current draw is minimal. 

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  403-370-9033

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[Tom Seim]

Jeff, scratching the transponder is a BIG MISTAKE! The latest Trig transponder is pretty miserly on power consumption and it makes you visible to other GA, commercial, and ATC (and ATC keeps aircraft away from you). Ditto for the ADS-B Out. I use a LiFO battery for my avionics, so power is not an issue, and I have a full glass panel.

Tom 2G

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[Bill Tisdale]

TCAS does not react based on ADSB data, it uses the xpndr data, Mode S is better. I would not give up the transponder.

I believe FLARM Fusion does receive ADSB data and xpndr data and flarm data and will display the traffic on your moving map.

I have the Trig22 ModeS with the Trig TN72 for both ModeS and ADSB-out.

I am working to get the Fusion installed to display traffic on my Oudie, using SeeYouMobile software.

Also recently installed OGN.

I run a Dittle radio, Trig xpndr/adsb , Borelt B40 vario, and my Oudie on a 12AmpHr LiPo and have no power issues.

Bill

[*Eric Greenwell1*]

It does look very interesting. Maybe it's time to replace my 13 year old Mode C.

Eric

[Matthew Scutter]

Why not just get a good battery and run whatever you want?

https://millenair.eu/product/pbq-12v-15ah-lifepo4-battery/ if you prefer LiFePo4

https://millenair.eu/product/airnergy-14-4v-20-5ah-nmc-battery/ if you are happy with NMC, may need some diodes too

Two of those should run any panel all day.

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[Armand Charbonneau]

I put ADS-b out in my glider 5 years ago. Two LiFePo batteries last at least 10 hours.  The other instruments on all the time are S100, Oudie2 and radio.  The power required for the ADS-b pulse is large, but only for a micro second so battery drain is minimal.  ADS-b is seen for long distances by all other aircraft.  It is the best anti collision currently available. 

One of my friends has a tail strobe that he cannot use as it interferes with his radio.   Strobes don’t do any good if other pilots have their eyes in the cockpit.  That said, I am getting a strobe that fits in front of the panel in my new glider. 

Armand Charbonneau

469-236-8224

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[Glenn Betzoldt]

Jeff i use one avionics battery for entire flight, solar keeps it charge. I wouldn't go without adsb &  transponder.

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[Cliff Hilty]

Hi Jeff, It depends alot on where you plan on flying the most. I do contests and fly near class B airspace so I'm in favor of powerflarm fusion, and transponder mode C or S the Becker I have is very low power and I get 6+ hours of flying on a single 10ah Dakota lithium battery. I'm not a fan of adsb as my power flarm core has adsb in as well as better alerts for other powerflarm equipped gliders. My next on the want list is the collision strobe hooked to the powerflarm either on the tail fin or on the glare shield. I've flown against these guys and it is amazing how well you can pick up on a head on collision course. Especially under cloud streets, when the collision threat is the greatest.

My .02 Cliff

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[Jeffrey Banks]

About ADS-B...   There are some airports that are using this info for fees. (Reported by AOPA)  Second hand info reports that the State and/or Federals are using this for enforcement activites.

Any real reports on this?

[Elijah Brown]

Cottonwood airport right next to us in Prescott is proposing a landing fee, billed automatically based on adsb data. Probably better to stick with uat solutions, as they allow anonymous mode. 1090 adsb has no anonymous option short of turning off the transponder, not technically legal...

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[Roy Bourgeois]

"Second hand info reports that the State and/or Federals are using this for enforcement activities" 

I'm surprised that anyone doubts that the FAA uses your ADS-B out track to enforce airspace violations - it is their best tool. The trace last for ever and you cant argue with it.  Moreover, they monitor the quality of your ADS-B out signal and will send you a nasty-gram if your system is not performing correctly. I got one and they connected me with an FAA department that sent me a KML file of a 3 hour XC flight with green ( good) and red (bad) arrows that showed exactly when my ADS-B out was not performing correctly ( it was a position source antenna location issue that was blocked when I thermaled steeply to the left). I had no idea they had this data.  Remember what the "S" in ADS-B out stands for . . .

ROY

[Ramy Yanetz]

Jeff,

I can’t imagine a good reason to scratch a transponder and ADS-B from a new glider. Modern gliders come with enough battery capacity to last multiple long flights with transponder and ADS-B. The cost should also not be a factor as it is a fraction of the cost of new glider. It also works very well to increase the powerflarm  detection range of gliders with ADS-B or even with just a transponder, vs powerflarm only. 

Ramy

[George Haeh]

In Canada, you can request a PAPR report online. The PAPR guide notes that GPS performance is degraded during maneuvering aka thermaling. 

You can see this with a GPS Test app on your phone. Hold it at a 45° angle and rotate at about the same rate as a thermaling turn. You will see satellites coming in and out of view.

My PAPR is good when I select times I'm not thermaling.

In Canada the transponder is interrogated by satellite. The glareshield works for me.

[n5...@comcast.net]

If this thread is really about "Big Brother" not tracking and documenting an airspace violation (that ship has sailed) or the off chance that we may fly out of an airport with landing fees (extremely unlikely), then both are poor reasons to exclude a transponder or ADS-b out in a glider. I would hope already that glider pilots don't give the Feds reason to restrict airspace by not properly obeying published airspace regulations.

Craig

On Thursday, September 26, 2024 at 8:37:18 PM UTC-7 Jeffrey Banks wrote:

About ADS-B...   There are some airports that are using this info for fees. (Reported by AOPA)  Second hand info reports that the State and/or Federals are using this for enforcement activities.

[Armand Charbonneau]

ATC does watch us on ADS-b, sometimes to a glider pilot’s advantage.  This summer myself and several other pilots flying out of Boulder were contacted by Center on 122.3 to advise our airport was suddenly under a Fire TFR.  We were directed to another frequency and given transponder codes for flying through the covered airspace so we could land back at Boulder.  It all worked out fine and no one was cited for flying in the TFR.  I will add ATC was friendly and helpful as I fumbled with the transponder code.  I had never changed it before!

Armand Charbonneau

469-236-8224

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[Mark Hawkins]

Here in Moriarty, once Albuquerque Center starts seeing our gliders with ponder/ADS-b above 10k feet or so. (Field elevation 6200) they start moving especially the heavy traffic coming in from the east headed for Albuquerque Sunport around to maintain traffic separation. We don’t have to ask. It just happens. And this ONLY happens because most of us fly with transponders/adsb. So in this case I am VERY happy to follow the rules and that I’m being “watched” by Albuquerque Center/ Sunport Approach Control. My 2-cents at least. 

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[Steve Koerner]

I'll pile on here.... 

1. It would be crazy to fly at Moriarty, where there is a definite flow of heavies at glider altitudes, without a transponder.  

2. It would be crazy to buy a new transponder that doesn't have ADS-B out.  

3. Moriarty area is sufficiently busy with flarm equipped gliders that it would be crazy to not also equip with Flarm and a flarm display.

[Dan Kvinge]

One of our club's fiberglass gliders is equipped with a uAvionix Tailbeacon without a transponder for ADSB-out.  It uses its built-in baro altimeter, and allows you to set a squawk code (which should be 1202 for gliders).   The Tailbeacon is mounted in the fuselage with the nav lights turned off (via software setup), and it transmits a perfectly good ADSB-out signal with no transponder and uses very little power.   It gets a perfect PAPR report.   I don't know why this is not used more commonly by gliders???   New Tailbeacons cost $2100, but they are sold used for $1000-1500.    It's weird how few people seem to know this is allowed by uAvionix and the FAA.  The Tailbeacon is  best for fiberglass, not aluminum or carbon fiber ships.

We also put a full Trig transponder system in our aluminum L23 at a cost of about $4000.    

Also, gliders are not required to change their squawk code from 1202.  The FAA made that rule back in 2021, and it makes sense since ATC should remember a glider does not have the maneuvering capabilities of a power plane.  The squawk code on a Tailbeacon can only be changed while on the ground.

[Tom Seim]

Trig transponders, by themselves, are not a complete ADS-B solution. You will also need a TN72 GPS position source, a GPS antenna, and, maybe, a new antenna. The details are covered here:

https://trig-avionics.com/support/support-faqs/ads-b-faqs/

Tom 2G

[Tom Seim]

Here is the total package for $3,435 (not including installation and certification):

https://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/15423?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwr9m3BhDHARIsANut04Zh3gJx_DeNqxIs59USw3W_HT5_dQan3DU5P0SwVIxgN723deqOVEYaAgjnEALw_wcB

[verhulst.t...@gmail.com]

The acro guys I hang out with used  to get these nasty-grams all  the time. When they went inverted, so did the ADS-B antenna. After a while, they stopped coming. I assume that they figured out that if the aircraft type was Extra or Sukoi.... well, never mind.

Tony

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[Moshe Braner]

That uAvionix tailBeacon (standalone, without a transponder) is an interesting option.  But keep in mind that is a transmit-only device.  And, being a 978UAT device, it won't be directly visible to PowerFLARM.  And of course FLARM is not e-visible to you unless you also have a FLARM (or compatible alternative).  Thus the tailBeacon serves one purpose only: to make you visible to ATC and to airplanes with 978MHz ADS-B-in receivers.  You will also be visible to aircraft with 1090-only ADS-B *in* (such as PowerFLARM!) via ADS-R *if* that aircraft also has ADS-B *out* configured to say "I can only receive 1090, please mirror nearby 978 traffic".  Question: can the tailBeacon itself be configured like that?  If so, then it can perhaps trigger ADS-R to make other 978 traffic visible via the PowerFLARM in the same glider.  As the number of general aviation aircraft equipping with 978UAT *out* is slowly increasing (thanks to options such as the tailBeacon), this becomes more of an issue.

[Steve Koerner]

Of further note: UAT, like TailBeacon, can't trigger TCAS.  TCAS is an important second line of defense against being slammed by an airliner.

[SS]

I run most of my soaring avionics from a 14.4V NiMH generic iRobot vacuum replacement battery.   Plenty of capacity. An occasional full discharge and recharge minimizes its capacity "memory".  Compact, safe, and dirt cheap (~$20 for a 3.8 AH or 4.5AH pack).  Need twice the capacity? Spend another $20 and parallel two batteries.  I personally wouldn't rule out avionics for battery draw-down concerns.  As for the transponder and ADS-B, it takes one close call with another aircraft to make one reconsider their worth.

[SS]

Speaking of Minden, a fatal mid air between a Globe Swift and a CAP Cessna T206H happened near there on Sep. 16 this year.  Speculation (e.g., on blancolirio's Youtube video) is that use of ADS-B out on the Swift could have made a difference.  But the Swift's owner was apparently a committed ADS-B non-user.  He was the one fatality, so his position on ADS-B will remain a topic of speculation.

On Wednesday, September 25, 2024 at 8:18:44 AM UTC-6 n5...@comcast.net wrote:

I agree with Eric. Get a XPDR and ADS-B.  My high priority for my new glider is to upgrade (removable) battery capacity. Overkill is easy to implement.

Many of us won't fly Minden / Air Sailing anymore unless we fly with a XPDR. I'm sure there are other areas with similar concerns.

Craig

[Richard Pfiffner]

Complete ADSB Out system TT22, TN72, Custom harness, Airspeed Switch, GPS antenna for experimental gliders.

https://www.craggyaero.com/transponder.htm

$3428.50

Pay by check and get a 5% Discount

Richard

www.craggyaero.com

[Ramy Yanetz]

The recent mid air at Minden https://youtu.be/G5y3JiOEnVs?si=y78FlWLKVYTyJab2 should serve as the answer to the discussion in this thread. According to the report, the pilot was also concerned about his privacy so switched off his ADSB. He no longer need to be concerned as he is dead now. Luckily the occupants of the other aircraft survived. I’ll say no more out of respect to fellow aviators. 

Ramy

[Jeff Banks]

Ramy

I’m going to get the full anti collision package 

I can understand why some are hesitant to equip 

The voice recorder on airliners was installed w the promise that the recording would only be a transcript to the public, and the crews last voices would not be public.  Well a judge in a civil suit  ordered otherwise.  Now the little rubber foot thing from a crutch is occasionally found on the flight deck microphone head. 

Safety stuff should not be used for anything other than safety. Not landing fees or enforcement. Once the trust is gone there are those that will modify their behavior away from the intended safety improvements. 

Sincerely 

Jeff Banks

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 4, 2024, at 13:19, Ramy Yanetz <ramyy...@gmail.com> wrote:

The recent mid air at Minden https://youtu.be/G5y3JiOEnVs?si=y78FlWLKVYTyJab2 should serve as the answer to the discussion in this thread. According to the report, the pilot was also concerned about his privacy so switched off his ADSB. He no longer need to be concerned as he is dead now. Luckily the occupants of the other aircraft survived. I’ll say no more out of respect to fellow aviators. 

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[Ramy Yanetz]

Jeff,

I totally agree with you that those measures should only be used for safety. It is more than just landing fee enforcement. It is also used for sales/use tax enforcement when folks who keep their aircraft out of state but ends up landing in state from whatever reason (eg landout)  may receive a bill. Still, the right thing to do is to fly with ADSb and pay the bills, as other lives depend on it. 

Ramy

[Mark Mocho]

When ADS-B was first proposed, Bob Carlton (who sees hidden stuff in regulations better than anyone I have ever known) said that it was only a matter of time that the ability to use identifiable information from a tracking system would be used to implement some sort of user fees.

As he put it, "Sooner or later. the FAA and ATC will be billing us every time the system pings you in a traffic environment."

[Richard Pfiffner]

l heard that some airports on the East Coast are already using ADSB to charge landing fees.

Richard

[David Cleveland]

East coast? Try Heber, UT. I believe the company that sells the collects the data and prints the invoices is on the east coast.

DC

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[Elijah Brown]

These guys are the ones I've seen. It appears to use a combination of adsb plus a camera to catch N numbers on the runway/taxiway. 

https://www.vector-us.com/planepass

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[*Eric Greenwell1*]

Are people objecting to the principle of airport fees, or just the method of assessing them, like ADSB? If the fees were based on a person or camera monitoring landings, would that be acceptable?

Eric

[Jeff Banks]

Eric

For me it is the lowering of safety because there are some that will not equip or disable to avoid fees or self incrimination. 

Jeff

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 5, 2024, at 05:45, *Eric Greenwell1* <engre...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jonathan Audy]

As a new pilot I bought my LS8 two seasons ago and it did not have ADSB out - the first summer season I spent flying out of air sailing nevada, and a couple of flights out of truckee ca. Watching commercial 737s and private jets flying by me I felt like I was playing Russian roulette. But much worse than that - it wasn’t just my life I was playing with but a 100 other people’s lives who did not even get to choose. My perspective is ADSB-out is to protect everyone, not just the owner.  So I bought a Trig system from Richard/craggy aero and installed it myself. Richard was incredibly helpful answering my questions. The system certification/checkout was easily done at a local airport. Best money I have spent on my glider. 

I have to say, to have ADSB and to choose to turn it off is something I just don’t understand. The best way to protect the sport is to see and be seen. I don’t know in this case what the reason was and I should not make a judgement, but I have heard other situations with comments about not wanting ‘big government’ tracking your every move - seems an overly paranoid reaction to me that entirely misses the point that it is not just about you. Freedom doesn’t come for free - there is a price of ensuring other people are not endangered while we have our fun.

here is a thought I had - tow planes are not required to have ADSB-out. But on any given gliding day, this one aircraft is making a whopping 50% of all the gliding operation takeoff & landings (not including self-launchers). And it also often uses the general aviation runway so is in GA flightpaths. This is major low-hanging fruit - equipping tow planes with ADSB-out covers ~50% of all glider aviation operation traffic near airports. Actually more - gliders ‘on tow’ are basically covered by the tow-planes ADSB-out - so that makes 100% of all takeoffs and 50% of all landings, for a 75% of all near-airport operation can be covered by the tow plane having ADSB-out. 

- Jonathan.

On Oct 5, 2024, at 7:19 AM, Jeff Banks <j...@mtaonline.net> wrote:

Eric

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[Eric Greenwell]

I agree with the idea we don't want to discourage safety, but it's not obvious to me charging landing fees will discourage ADSB equipage. Would any pilot fly without it, taking the extra risk while landing (and all the rest of the time while flying) to avoid the possibility of paying landing fees? Heber, for example, is $4 for transient aircraft under 8000lbs - what pilot would decide not to install a $3500 ADSB to avoid that? And if they are using cameras in addition, maybe you get charged anyway.

Eric G

[Jeff Banks]

Eric

It’s not the fee itself. It’s the use of a safety system for other purposes that impinges on the intended safety of that system. 

We will never exactly know why a person would disable his safety system, however it happens. 

If none-safe uses of these systems (even though useful) are allowed there will be a lowering of safety as some will operate differently.   

I think the Minden accident between a Cessna 206 with all the bells and whistles and a Globe Swift might be an interesting study. (It allegedly had ADSB either off or not installed)

Sadly we cannot interview the pilot. 

Sincerely 

Jeff Banks

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 6, 2024, at 06:46, Eric Greenwell <engre...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with the idea we don't want to discourage safety, but it's not obvious to me charging landing fees will discourage ADSB equipage. Would any pilot fly without it, taking the extra risk while landing (and all the rest of the time while flying) to avoid the possibility of paying landing fees? Heber, for example, is $4 for transient aircraft under 8000lbs - what pilot would decide not to install a $3500 ADSB to avoid that? And if they are using cameras in addition, maybe you get charged anyway.

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[Roy Bourgeois]

The issue of smaller airports tracking landings and takeoffs via ASD-B is more complex than this discussion suggests.  Federal funds are available for runway improvements, markings, navaids, approach systems and even snow plows. Those funds are triggered in part by the amount of activity (takeoffs, landings, and number of aircraft based)  at a local airport.  ADS-B tracking is marketed to local airports to facilitate reliable gathering this data - and that is a benign purpose unrelated to landing fees. If the local airport commission elects to also use the data to impose or enforce a landing fee that is just a byproduct of the system and not necessarily the primary purpose for adopting the tracking capability. Stated differently, local airport ADS-B tracking will occur regardless of the imposition of landing fees.  

ROY

[Armand Charbonneau]

Imagine surviving a mid air collision that killed others because you turned off the ADS-b to avoid a $5 landing fee.  

Every aircraft should have and use ADS-b.  

Armand Charbonneau

469-236-8224

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[John Johnson]

I fly around Tucson Class C a lot.  I have a dual channel radio and use it listen to approach control - particular when I'm in line with arrival and departure paths.  In my experience:

  1. On every single flight I had near Class C in the last year (like 40+), I heard TRACON either vector a plane around me or give an aircraft my location to watch for.  On a busy weekend at El Tiro, TRACON is issuing glider activity and location warnings every few minutes.

  2. Every single time a pilot is notified to watch for me, they never spotted me.  Not once.  In fact, I've never heard any pilot declare 'glider in sight' to ATC.  And its not just gliders - they very often can't visually locate GA or biz jets.  A couple of weeks ago, DS was in the jump seat coming home on a 'FedEx heavy' when they were notified to watch for me (3-5mi out, same altitude).  He already knew where I was because he was watching my flight on OGN.  He said all 3 of them in the cockpit were straining to spot me and failed.  I heard that dialogue and got a text a few minutes later from DS.

  

  The ATP's in my club put a lot of faith in TCAS avoidance warnings but that's reaching a line of defense I think we want to avoid.  I'm a strong ADSB-out advocate but I also find having other aircraft displayed with ADSB-in is very important as well.  It was surprising to learn just how often I was close other aircraft when I first displayed ADSB-in a few years ago.  It's scary to understand how unlikely you are to spot many of those aircraft just by visually scanning.  We have a tremendous amount of pilot training in AZ and I constantly see VFR GA turn to avoid me  a few miles out on my display.

  The more I listen to ATC (including phoenix class B when near), the more I'm convinced we need to be as visible as possible.  I humbly suggest that monitoring ATC is a good habit when you're in the vicinity.  In the few cases where the dialogue was becoming tense, I've related to ATC the situation as I saw it.  For us, it's generally easy to spot the aircraft involved and, in a short call, let them know it's 'no factor'.   Once I was worried about the emerging intercept from a climbing biz jet departure and requested they turn tighter.  That one was close (ADSB replay showed under 1 mile) and, of course, they never saw me.  In every case where I communicated, ATC has been friendly and expressed appreciation for the info.

  If you aren't displaying and listening to traffic, you may be surprised to learn how close it gets.  When you do understand, you'll want a solid transponder solution.  I don't give a darn about tracking or landing fees.

  JJ 

[Dave Nadler]

Well said, Thanks JJ!

[Nicholas Kennedy]

In this months EAA Sport Aviation magazine there is a good OpEd on pg 10 about the gathering of data and billing pilots for fees

Well written, If you can access it online

Nick

A2

[*Eric Greenwell1*]

Or maybe you meant "AOPA"? Same thing, also on page 10. Try searching for ...

        'Work with us,' says AOPA

An excerpt: "ADS-B was intended to enhance safety, not to be used to impose fees"

Eric G

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[Bill Tisdale]

Before the advancement of ADS-B, many southern CA airports had a listening device along the runway that could hear the engines during takeoff and landing as they passed, Doppler Effect. That would match with a recording of the CTAF and send billing for landing fees to pilots. This mostly occurred during the "tower closed" hours, but it did reduce the night time noise complaints when pilots started avoiding those airports after they received a bill for 3 landings with late night pattern operations for night currency.

Our local County Airport used a noise device just to get the traffic count for funding. There was no FBO on the remote airport. We reminded the county that during certain hours on weekends to double the count. That was a tow plane and a glider takeoff, you heard the tow plane land, but not the glider.

Bill

[Moshe Braner]

The TailBeacon documentation says:

"tailBeacon utilizes uAvionix’s Power Transcoder to ensure proper
synchronization of data elements between Secondary Surveillance Radar
(SSR) replies and ADS-B transmissions. These elements include Mode A
squawk and IDENT status. In remote areas where you may not be
interrogated by SSR, these data elements may at times be unavailable.
The Power Transcoder additionally serves to provide Continuous
Calibration™ data to the altitude encoder."

- so there will be some impacts from using it without a transponder, even if it "works".  The baro altimeter would be less accurate.  Is that an issue?  Is it accurate enough for the ADS-B transmissions to be legal?  Does it (without a transponder) qualify for entry into Class C airspace?  (The latter may not matter to you.)

Additionally, being 978 not 1090, it will be invisible to PowerFLARMs, but if you also have FLARM transmitting then that's not an issue.

On Friday, September 27, 2024 at 11:12:55 PM UTC-4 Dan Kvinge wrote:

One of our club's fiberglass gliders is equipped with a uAvionix Tailbeacon without a transponder for ADSB-out.  It uses its built-in baro altimeter, and allows you to set a squawk code (which should be 1202 for gliders).   The Tailbeacon is mounted in the fuselage with the nav lights turned off (via software setup), and it transmits a perfectly good ADSB-out signal with no transponder and uses very little power.   It gets a perfect PAPR report.   I don't know why this is not used more commonly by gliders???   New Tailbeacons cost $2100, but they are sold used for $1000-1500.    It's weird how few people seem to know this is allowed by uAvionix and the FAA.  The Tailbeacon is  best for fiberglass, not aluminum or carbon fiber ships.

We also put a full Trig transponder system in our aluminum L23 at a cost of about $4000.    

Also, gliders are not required to change their squawk code from 1202.  The FAA made that rule back in 2021, and it makes sense since ATC should remember a glider does not have the maneuvering capabilities of a power plane.  The squawk code on a Tailbeacon can only be changed while on the ground.

On Friday, September 27, 2024 at 9:16:57 PM UTC-5 Steve Koerner wrote:

I'll pile on here.... 

1. It would be crazy to fly at Moriarty, where there is a definite flow of heavies at glider altitudes, without a transponder.  

2. It would be crazy to buy a new transponder that doesn't have ADS-B out.  

3. Moriarty area is sufficiently busy with flarm equipped gliders that it would be crazy to not also equip with Flarm and a flarm display.

On Friday, September 27, 2024 at 1:12:30 PM UTC-7 Mark Hawkins wrote:

Here in Moriarty, once Albuquerque Center starts seeing our gliders with ponder/ADS-b above 10k feet or so. (Field elevation 6200) they start moving especially the heavy traffic coming in from the east headed for Albuquerque Sunport around to maintain traffic separation. We don’t have to ask. It just happens. And this ONLY happens because most of us fly with transponders/adsb. So in this case I am VERY happy to follow the rules and that I’m being “watched” by Albuquerque Center/ Sunport Approach Control. My 2-cents at least. 

On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 13:14 Armand Charbonneau <abcso...@gmail.com> wrote:

ATC does watch us on ADS-b, sometimes to a glider pilot’s advantage.  This summer myself and several other pilots flying out of Boulder were contacted by Center on 122.3 to advise our airport was suddenly under a Fire TFR.  We were directed to another frequency and given transponder codes for flying through the covered airspace so we could land back at Boulder.  It all worked out fine and no one was cited for flying in the TFR.  I will add ATC was friendly and helpful as I fumbled with the transponder code.  I had never changed it before!

Armand Charbonneau

469-236-8224

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Fri, Sep 27, 2024 at 2:02 PM 'n5...@comcast.net' via RAS_Prime <rasp...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If this thread is really about "Big Brother" not tracking and documenting an airspace violation (that ship has sailed) or the off chance that we may fly out of an airport with landing fees (extremely unlikely), then both are poor reasons to exclude a transponder or ADS-b out in a glider. I would hope already that glider pilots don't give the Feds reason to restrict airspace by not properly obeying published airspace regulations.

Craig

On Thursday, September 26, 2024 at 8:37:18 PM UTC-7 Jeffrey Banks wrote:

About ADS-B...   There are some airports that are using this info for fees. (Reported by AOPA)  Second hand info reports that the State and/or Federals are using this for enforcement activities.

Any real reports on this?

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[Leslie Mccurdy]

1000-1500 bucks…yikes. Thanks for sending that.

BTW do you have a link for the FIRC that you use?

Leslie Mccurdy

917-288-1058

http://www.lhmccurdybasses.com

On Nov 10, 2024, at 17:16, Moshe Braner <moshe....@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Jeff Stetson]

The TailBeacon is entirely legal within Class B and C airspace, but not in Class A (excepting wave window or similar provisions). It does not contain its own transponder, but provides basic ADS-B out information "on top of" Mode C transponder output. An increasingly big weakness is that it only fires off when the transponder is interrogated by SSR surveillance radar. One of the selling points back when is the an ADS-B mandate would save money by allowing many SSR installations to be shut down, much like what they've done to VOR's. Near the big cities, it's not much of a problem, but far out, your ADS-B signal will cease. For this reason, I installed a used ($1,000-$1500) Garmin GDL-82 this summer in my Ximango, because it does fire without SSR triggering, and is both high power and higher quality.

For little more money look at the TailbeaconX. It includes a Mode S transponder, transmits on 1090ES, is not dependent on ground stations, uses little power, but requires at least a 2 1/4" hole in the panel to serve as a control head.

[Jim M]

Speaking of the tailBeaconX, here's an installation that's been working well for me.  If I get toe cancer, I guess we'll know why.  I'm controlling it with an AV-20S.

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rasprime/c1a3034e-4274-44de-a38e-8d13d5722e71n%40googlegroups.com.

[Eric Greenwell]

Does position light function in your situation? If so, is it useful as an anti-collision device? The $800 for the control head isn't too bad, if you want the other features it provides.

On Monday, November 11, 2024 at 3:42:36 PM UTC-8 Jim M wrote:

Speaking of the tailBeaconX, here's an installation that's been working well for me.  If I get toe cancer, I guess we'll know why.  I'm controlling it with an AV-20S.

[Jim M]

I disabled the light, it's easy but may void the warranty.  There are a few other complexities... I'd be happy to provide some guidance if someone wants to pursue this.

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[Moshe Braner]

"An increasingly big weakness is that it only fires off when the transponder is interrogated by SSR surveillance radar."

- and yet Dan Kvinge wrote that it "gets a perfect PAPR report" *without a transponder*.  Something here is not clear.

[Dan Kvinge]

Moshe,

Your summary of the tailbeacon was correct, with its pros and cons, but some others added some misinformation... My comments:

1) Tailbeacon and Skybeacon both transmit ADSB-out once per second.  They do NOT need to be interrogated to send out a position signal.

2) As Moshe said, they transmit on 978 MHz, so PowerFlarm only will receive them if they are rebroadcast by FAA.  In our location that rebroadcast is sporadic due to distance from a FAA ground station.

3) The nav light is easily turned off via the phone app, and would have no bearing on warranty or ADSB-out signal.

4) They are totally approved for use in "Rule" airspace, (Class B and C) but only WITH a transponder.

Now comes the tricky part...

Tailbeacon and Skybeacon both have their own barometric altimeter.   This altimeter signal is compared to the transponder altimeter for "continuous calibration".    The transponder is required by FAA to be recalibrated every two years.   The Tail/Sky is not recalibrated, presumably because it is not primary.    

If you are NOT going into "Rule" airspace, there is a method to have the Tail/Sky use only the local built-in baro altimeter.  Then it sends a standard ADSB-out signal that passes all the FAA PAPR checks.  In fact it gives a better report than our Blanik with the Trig full transponder system.   It also allows you to put in a squawk code, which as we know is 1202 for gliders, and the ATC should not ask you to change that to any other code.    This option was allowed by uAvionix and presumably the FAA until a couple months ago...

Now uAvionix says the FAA has asked them to stop offering this option of a non-transponder ADSB-out because it is possible the baro altimeter in the Tail/skybeacon may become inaccurate, and result in a mismatch between GPS and baro altimeter readings.  They say this has not happened to their knowledge, but in theory it could per the FAA.    My experience is that the recalibration of transponders is really just checking it hasn't failed...they don't typically find errors and they can't fix them if they do.

My non-transponder tailBeacon gives a perfect ADSB-out signal,  but they can't encourage that solution any more, per the FAA.

Which brings me back to my original request on how can we get the Sky Echo 2 approved for use in the USA???   It gives the same signal as a Tailbeacon, at the same power level, costs under $700, and is legal in UK, NZ, and AU.   Read about Electronic Conspicuity in Europe and ask yourself why the SSA should not be lobbying for this?   It greatly improves safety over NOTHING, which is what many gliders and general aviation planes choose.   And why is the SSA giving all its focus to OGN, which also does nothing to create separation from general aviation. 

Dan

[Moshe Braner]

"Now uAvionix says the FAA has asked them to stop offering this option of a non-transponder ADSB-out"

- does that mean that future versions of their software will block one from using this option?

Yes the Sky Echo would be a fantastic alternative, if only the FAA would allow it.  1090 out, dual-band (&FLARM) in,  standalone...  Only wish it had connectors for external antennas for more flexible installation in metal and carbon aircraft.

[Dan Kvinge]

Only a very small number of people are doing this non-transponder ADSB-out tailBeacon solution, and uAvionix will no longer offer the secret instructions on how to do it.  I suppose they would change software if it becomes a big issue.

Also, the Sky Echo 2 using 978 MHz has already been given to the FAA but they have declined to even run a trial on it.  We need to get more coordinated and push for this.

[Jeff Stetson]

A direct quote from the uAvionx AFM supplement for the Tailbeacon: 

"The integrated Power Transcoder ensures proper

synchronization of data elements between Secondary
Surveillance Radar (SSR) replies and ADS-B
transmissions. These elements include Mode A squawk

code, Mode C altitude, and IDENT status. In remote
areas where you may not be interrogated by Secondary
Surveillance Radar, aircraft Mode A squawk code may
be broadcast as unavailable (0000) or the last know

transponder reply code."

Perhaps my paraphrase was incorrect, but there is a problem here.

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[Dan Kvinge]

Yes Jeff, this is correct.   The squawk code normally comes from the transponder, so it uses the last known squawk code.   In remote areas that never get interrogated maybe it didn't have the squawk code.  So they changed the setup to allow you to enter a squawk code via phone setup which is used if no transponder code is known.  This code can only be changed while on the ground via the phone app.   But the primary point is that it keeps sending ADSB-out position every second regardless of squawk code.   If the ADSB signal does not have a squawk code it will be flagged by the FAA and get a bad PAPR report.   I know this from experience.