How do you manage a flat tire on the runway?

[John Johnson]

We've had a few instances of our heavy 2-place gliders having the main tire go flat and stopping the glider short on our dirt/gravel runway.  In another case, a glider had collapsed landing gear that was broken and couldn't support the glider.  In these situations, the glider is basically stuck and very hard to move.  Other than using a vehicle to drag a glider on the flat tire/wheel rim/fuselage, does your club have a recovery cart or some other solution to efficiently move a glider with a landing gear issue? 

We've tried things like sliding a wheeled cushioned motorcycle / transmission lift under the glider but it just doesn't work to get it underneath or move around on our soft surface.  I was thinking of some sort of forked side rail cart with reasonably sized tires - roll the forks around the nose with the rails going under the wing roots.  And then, something like a front and rear strap are tightened via a hand winch to lift and cradle the fuselage between the side rails.  Another idea is simply a sled - lift the tail, drop the fuselage/wheel onto a wood sled, and then drag the sled with a vehicle.  Maybe just a simple piece of plywood?

Then I thought, wait a minute, someone on RAS already has a great solution for this situation.  Appreciate hearing your ideas.

thx, JJ

[krasw]

Usually derigging the glider to the trailer on the spot is fastest option, never seen any other method. After belly landing with functioning landing gear, you could lift the tail and extend landing gear.

[Avron Tal]

Use it to move the glider from runway to the shade 

[John Johnson]

One of club members once saw a picture of a forked apparatus made for this situation (can't find the pic now).  Basically, a long beam with a hitch coupler on one end and forks on the other with straps across the forks ahead of the glider wheel and another strap connected behind.  There were wheels that acted like a fulcrum to leverage the fuselage off the ground and allow the glider to be towed off the field.  

Anyone seen or have a picture of something like this?

thx, JJ

[John Johnson]

Thanks Avron.  We have something similar with a jack setup for use in the hangar but it is simply not usable on our gravel field.  Even without the glider on it, it's a huge pain just to position it under the fuselage.  With glider weight, it won't budge.  With completely collapsed land gear, it's a lot of work (and people) to get something like this positioned.  In the meantime, the runway is obstructed.

thx, JJ

On Monday, August 11, 2025 at 5:59:45 AM UTC-7 Avron Tal wrote:

[Nicholas Kennedy]

The  Plywood sled idea sounds like the simplest and most practical.

Probably would need some pieces of steel chain on the plywood to take the friction wear while dragging it off to a good place to fix it

Cheap easy to store and not complicated to use

Nick

A2

On Monday, August 11, 2025 at 12:46:07 PM UTC-6 John Johnson wrote:

We have something similar with a jack setup but it is simply not usable on our gravel field.  Even without the glider on it, it's a huge pain just to position it under the fuselage.  With glider weight, it won't budge.

thx, JJ

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[Tom Seim]

If you could lift the glider, then you could haul it off with a garden cart such as: https://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lb-capacity-mesh-deck-steel-wagon-60359.html?gQT=1

The glider could be lifted with an engine hoist and straps.

But, by the time that it would take to get all of this equipment in place you could have just simply derigged the glider, which is what I did when I landed with a flat tire once. The only other option is hooking a cable up to the tow hook and dragging the stricken glider off with a pickup truck. You could use heavy blankets to minimize the damage (if it is a gear-up landing it will need refinishing anyhow).

Tom 2G

Tom

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[Frank Whiteley]

John,

Glider spoon.  That's how we  loaded/unloaded our quonset hut style hangar at Enstone GC.  It's a spoon (basket) for a main gear with a long handle and axle.  Allows a person about 175lb or larger to lift a two seater like a G-103, L-23, or 2-33.  Pretty useful when a trailer is not a quick option.  The spoon in the UK was a bowl of steel straps with a hubcap "insert" of the same diameter used to allow the glider to be turned while in the spoon.  The glider side has to be long enough so it can rotate enough to be useful without the wheels touching the fuselage.  The lifting handle needed to be at least 5X the length of the glider side for leverage.  Any longer added excessive weight.  I used 13" pneumatic wheels for ease of rolling over various surfaces and lift height.  Some didn't like it, but that's because a couple of inexperienced members pushed a glider out of the spoon instead of letting the spoon handler initiate the movements.  I built two, one for the club and another for me.  I used chain for the baskets, which allowed turning the glider without a hubcap insert.  Can't believe I don't have a picture in my archives.  We had multiple L-23 flats while preparing students for check rides.  A half dozen pattern tows in rapid succession would melt the tube due to stopping for a relight again and again. At 5500msl, wheel brakes work a bit harder.  I seem to recall at least three L-23 recoveries from the runway to the hangar and two for the G-103.  There were also a few single seaters.   It was a 1-34 that got pushed out of the spoon which resulted in some contact between the spoon and the fuselage.  Hangar dollies kind of work if the ground is hard, but the wheels are generally  too small off pavement.

Frank Whiteley

[Dave Nadler]

Frank! Onshape!

[John Johnson]

Thanks Frank, I wish there was a picture.  A solution like you describe seems ideal - a single apparatus that lifts and allows the glider to be moved quickly and safely.

We're kicking around ideas like these drawings.  The front strap (yellow) lifts the fuselage when the tow bar is levered down.  After that, the rear strap is tightened to help stabilize and prevent the glider from sliding out backwards.  I think something like this could handle a gear-up situation as well as flat tires.   We used a forklift a while back and saw that the strap-between-forks recovery idea worked pretty well.  But we don't have access to a forklift any longer.

Appreciate ideas and feedback.

 

thx, JJ

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[Mark Mocho]

The geometry and leverage on this design are not really practical. There will be an upward force on the hitch coupler equal to the weight of the glider. Not desirable with a typical ball hitch. The wheels need to be MUCH closer to the main gear, or even slightly behind it to impart a positive load on the tow vehicle. Plus, lifting the drawbar with a long lever arm would be much easier.

[Tom Seim]

In addition to what Mark said, when there is a gear-up landing, the belly is flat on the ground. The drawing indicates otherwise.

The big problem is how to lift the glider to get anything under it? I suggested an engine hoist, but getting this to the glider on rough terrain is problematic. After some thought, I think that using two floor jacks, one under each wing, is more practical. You would also need two wing cuffs with support extensions to serve as jack points. The jacks do not have to be large, just 1000 lb capacity (or more). All of this equipment, plus a garden cart, would fit into a car trunk.

Tom 2G

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[John Johnson]

I appreciate the feedback - please keep it coming.

In that first iteration, the rear strap is meant to stay loose until after the leverage lift occurs on just the front strap.  Then the coupler is hitched and then the rear strap is ratcheted tight to stabilize (it's not really lifting any weight).  We hauled a Grob out with a forklift a while back using straps between the tines and found the front strap did the lifting while the rear strap just kept the glider from sliding off the back.  That event provided some helpful insights and we're hoping we can achieve something similar without the forklift.  It's probably obvious, but the tailwheel needed to take up more weight since the lifting was fairly far forward of the wheel.

A newer cart concept is attached.  It replaces the rear strap with just a pair of straps for pulling.   I agree the drawbar/lever would be pulling upward quite a bit.   I'll draw another version that puts the strap in front of the wheels which will keep the drawbar weighted in the normal direction.  The cart wheels need some distance from the strap to perform a sufficient lift height (vs losing leverage if too far).  If this can be made right, it would sure make things convenient for an all-in-one lift and haul solution. 

I do understand that the strap can only go so far forward in the case of a gear collapse.  In that case, the tail could be lifted and the strap positioned under the fuselage before the cart was brought in.   

 Maybe a repurposed jet ski trailer would be a good starting point for this concept?

I have a lot of ppt sketches - don't want to clog up the RAS post too much.  Thanks again for your suggestions.

JJ

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[Tom Seim]

That concept puts forces on the flap (for a flapped ship), which is a no-no. For unflapped gliders, it stresses a weak point not designed for those stresses. My concept would lift the glider by the wings at the spar near the wing root (a point that I failed to make clear). This is a very strong point. Also, you don't need a full wing cuff, just a large pad that would spread the forces out. Then, a simple cart could be wheeled under the glider that also had a pad of some sort (such as movers' blankets) to avoid any further damage to the glider's belly.

Tom 2G

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[Mark Mocho]

If I designed and built a device like this, what do you think you would pay for it? I would try to make it break down to a reasonable number of easily assembled components. I'm tired of making wing wheels and tow bars. Still making WingRiggers and various interesting and some not-so-interesting stuff, but this sounds intriguing. I've also had to deal with aircraft with flat tires and a few gear-up landings (including one of mine), so the problem might need a solution.

[John Johnson]

I hear you Tom.  A friend suggests using a fuselage 'cuff' behind the wings instead of the trailing edge pull straps I drew.

I also understand your point regarding wing jacks and a garden cart. It's a good idea and it would work.  In the end, the solution needs to be deployed quickly, be unlikely to cause (more) glider damage, and be safe to use by the average club member.  Considering that a majority of our club members have no experience in glider assembly, glider trailers, glider maintenance, etc. I'm worried that wing jacks would be problematic.   Heck, every weekend we find club gliders not tied down properly at the end of day.  I'd like to explore the all-in-one leveraged cart and strap concept a bit more.  

thx, JJ

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[John Johnson]

Mark,

  Is $2-3k in the ballpark?  If you're serious about proceeding and we align on your design drawings, I'll sign an agreement and make a deposit (personally, not as a club rep).

thx, JJ

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[Moshe Braner]

A while back I landed my "Russia" glider (empty weight, rigged, about 320 pounds) with a flat main wheel.  (No problem on takeoff - must have hit some sharp object in the air?)  Stopped in a few feet in the middle of the runway.  A fellow club member, who is much stronger than me, put his arms under the nose and lifted the whole glider enough to slide the fuselage dolly underneath.    :-)

[Tom Seim]

John, there is no rig I could think of that would be usable by people who can't even rig a glider. As with anything of this nature, people need to be trained in its use.

Tom 2G

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[Mark Mocho]

I totally agree. Asking the "average" glider pilot to properly utilize a recovery device like this is simply not realistic. You can't make something foolproof because of the continuing evolution (or de-evolution) of fools.

I am still thinking about this, but it is still in the "pre-bar napkin" phase. One consideration I have to resolve is how universal it can be. I have my doubts that a one-size-fits-all solution can be found, considering the differences in weight and configuration of SGS 2-33s, Grob 103s, Discus or other single seaters and so on.

[Ryszard Krolikowski]

John, 

Maybe this tool from South Africa ?

Wheels are hard rubber about 7 inches but El Tiro would need soft 10+  and modified grabber mechanism.

Instead of spoon to scoop the main wheel, maybe 2 soft coated 2 ft long, 1 inch diameter rollers?

Video has 26 Meg and rasprime rejected.

I tried to share shorter video on rasprime.

Ryszard

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[Ryszard Krolikowski]

I think my video of SA huge dolly went to JJ private.

Ryszard

[John Johnson]

I don't expect much variation in use between glider types.   If it works for a large 2-place glider, I can't think how the same equipment would have an issue working with a smaller glider.  Maybe some minor configuration step like 2 labeled positions for the cradle strap?  Am I missing something?

Whatever form it takes, the apparatus should be able to be demonstrated and taught periodically to qualify our club's line chiefs.  To me, this seems well within that scope versus, say, teaching them proper disassembly of the club's 5 different glider types and trailer assortment.   While, 'foolproof' isn't the expectation, a straightforward and common procedure that is relatively 'glider safe' is definitely the goal.  In the meantime, these same folks are scrambling with NO reasonable solution when a glider is stuck on the runway.  I know we can do a lot better than the current situation.   

Mark, you've got the right skills so I hope this looks like an appealing project.  When you're ready to share a napkin drawing with me, let me know.  I'm heading to/from Salida in a few weeks via Santa Fe.  I can swing by Moriarty on my way back if you like and I'll supply the beer side of that drawing. 

(If you're thinking not to engage, please let me know and we'll get started half-assing something)

thx, JJ  

480 four three seven zero seven seven zero

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[John Johnson]

Thanks Ryszard.  This lifting tire bucket/spoon cart is a slick looking tool.  Really good stuff - thanks for sending!

  - I like the offset lift lever handle.  Nice how it reduces the overall length and applies the leverage right where it is needed.

  - I think it would work well in a flat tire situation with few folks pushing the glider onto it.

  - Agree, bigger tires needed for soft fields

  - Agree, does need some changes to work with a broken gear collapse situation. I still like the idea of a strap.  If needed, a strap can be separated and positioned independent of the cart (while lifting the glider's tail nose-down for example).   

  - This design doesn't seem to have any glider type limitations but maybe that lever force gets too large with a heavy glider?

 - I would want something like this to be towable considering our soft field.

Overall, it looks well-thought out and very usable.  It's quite a bit different from my concept.  

Frank, is this similar to your spoon design?

(anyone have a dropbox for the big video file?)

thx, JJ

thx, JJ

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[Matthew Scutter]

Why not use a fuselage cradle with a jack integrated? AKA a workshop cradle. IMI sells one that jacks up by drill. My Diana 2 fuselage cradle has a pneumatic jack integrated. It's been popular at contests when someone has a flat and wants to change without getting their trailer.

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[Mark Mocho]

The biggest issue is coming up with a design that can pick up a fuselage with the belly resting on the ground, as when there is a gear collapse. A flat tire leaves the belly at least a few inches off the ground , making the lift much easier. Next, the device must have enough mechanical advantage to lift a potentially heavy glider like a two-seater high enough to move it without a huge effort. Then it has to have large enough wheels to roll on a gravel, dirt or grass surface. Altogether, these constraints pretty much eliminate the IMI shop cradle or similar concept.

[Rick Roelke]

How about pulling it up onto rollers.  Like a roller boat trailer.  If it's stuck in place the trailer can be winched backwards while the glider stays stationary. Attach to the tow hook with a small battery powered winch?  a gear up 20 would be an issue but then you just lift the tail...

[krasw]

If you start thinking flight manual tyre pressure to be MINIMUM pressure rather than maximum, you need a lot less equipment to remove helpless gliders from runway. Solve the root cause. 

[Chip Bearden]

I saw mention of lifting the tail to raise the fuselage while it rests on the nose and wedging something under it. I've seen it done, despite some cautions against it (can put a lot of stress on the forward fuselage). A safer way I've also seen done is to get a few of the big crowd you'll attract to kneel under each wing root close to the fuselage and raise the aircraft off the ground on their backs. Works for single seat gliders with wings mounted mid fuselage. Then you can slide the fuselage dolly from the trailer under it and wheel it off a hard surface runway. All bets are off for larger two-seaters and softer runways. John Murray was an advocate of this method when he was directing recoveries from gear-up landings. You can't lift it very high this way but it's usually enough to snap the gear back down.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

[Tom Seim]

How about using an airbag lift, one under each wing? Once the glider is lifted, a cart could be put under it to move it.

https://www.homedepot.com/pep/SKYSHALO-Air-Jack-3-Ton-6600-lbs-Triple-Bag-Air-Jack-Airbag-Jack-Lift-up-to-17-7-in-3-5-s-Fast-Lifting-Pneumatic-Jack-Red-QNQJDDBSZB3T6S7CKV0-0726/331934077?source=shoppingads&locale=en-US&pla&mtc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D25S-025_011_STORAGE_DEVI-NA-Multi-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-StorageDevices_BControl24&cm_mmc=SHOPPING-BF-CDP-GGL-D25S-025_011_STORAGE_DEVI-NA-Multi-NA-PMAX-NA-NA-NA-NA-NBR-NA-NA-NA-StorageDevices_BControl24-21273847567--&gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21263290737&gbraid=0AAAAADq61Ue_1CD1yFYJKvQ5KHYvZ7P66&gclid=Cj0KCQjw8KrFBhDUARIsAMvIApbkbHEHDqMJ2dgFTpytC3CEKEKEt1YIYE5xD-fYOwA43-3-gWmdHN8aAg5LEALw_wcB

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[Mark Mocho]

It would probably work fine with some spacers, since the max height is 17.7 inches. But this assumes you have electricity at the incident site.

[Mark Mocho]

Not only electricity, but a compressor is also required.

[Tom Seim]

I do have a battery-powered compressor from Harbor Freight that would likely work.

Tom 2G

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[Uli N]

Any air compressor meant for tire inflation would take forever to inflate and lift a glider stranded on a runway.

How about the type using a car/truck exhaust pipe:

Lift Bag

But then again, since we are all going to drive EVs soon, that may not be an option for long. [Sarcasm <off>]

Uli

'AS'

[Stéphane Vander Veken]

During a competition long ago, a Ventus 2B with full water ballast had a flat tire on the grid (grass runway) at the start of the tow. It was high enough from the ground so we were able to use the lifting rail extension from a Cobra trailer (it was loose, not attached to the trailer as some are now) to lift it and change the wheel on the spot (there was a complete spare wheel available).

Last April, a guy landed his Nimbus 3 DT (not quite the heaviest glider, but close) wheel up (short grass with much gravel), and we lifted it using an engine hoist like this (https://img.vevorstatic.com/us%2FZDSFDJQZJCJH2V44JV0%2Fgoods_img_big-v4%2Fengine-hoist-leveler-m100-1.2.jpg?timestamp=1681868638000&format=webp&format=webp) high enough to extend the wheel again (with the canopy removed first). Not easily usable on soft ground ...

In both instances, the runway was blocked for approximately 15 minutes.

[Tom Seim]

This was the first option I mentioned, but these hoists are big and heavy, and are difficult to move on anything but a hard-surfaced runway. A pair of aluminum floor jacks (with appropriate extenders) will fit in the trunk of a car.

Tom 2G