New Rules Change for Controls

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Bill Bryant

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Feb 3, 2024, 4:13:47 PMFeb 3
to randonn...@googlegroups.com

Dear RUSA Members,

The Audax Club Parisien has made a major change to its Brevets de Randonneurs Mondiaux regulations that we follow at Randonneurs USA. Starting immediately, there will only be timing at the final control of each brevet. The RUSA Board of Directors has voted to follow this and so our US brevets and populaires will no longer have timed intermediate controls.

 

The ACP is encouraging RBAs to still use the familiar opening and closing times for intermediate controls, but this is to be only a guideline to help riders stay inside the time window for a successful finish at the final control, which will be timed. And, following the recent change for events 1200 km and longer by Les Randonneurs Mondiaux, US organizers for grand randonnées can chose to use timed intermediate controls or not.

 

What do you need to do? Ride events as you always would – you must follow the route and reach all the control points, but don’t stress too much about the control times between the start and the finish; now it is the final checkpoint’s timing that you need to be concerned with.

 

Best wishes for a good year of randonneuring,

The RUSA Board of Directors

 

 

Jim Logan

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Feb 4, 2024, 8:22:35 AMFeb 4
to Randonneurs USA

Short version:

I will cheer RBA’s that continue to publish closing control times. (Though perhaps they need a new name).

 

Comments:

I suspect control close times will fade from practice as  both control cards and cue sheets become less relevant.   Speaking as someone that often rode at the back of the back and near “control speed”, it is both comforting and motivating to know how much time in the bank (i.e. time before control end time) you have when both arriving at and leaving a control.  

 

While we rightly celebrate those that finish through all odds, I think back to my Endless Mountains 1000 km in 2008.  I got heat exhaustion at 90 miles after passing RBA Tom on the roadside with water (he knew something I didn’t) then went dry .  Rode another 1 ½ days without recovering. The first control I hit beyond control time was a relief.  I checked in to a motel, got a bit of rest, then rode to the  staffed (overnight) control to abandon.  For me, that was the right decision.  I came back the next year to finish the Endless Mountains 1240 km (as the last rider within the time limit).  Having clarify on control times (when lacking the ability to ride faster than control time even when healthy) was helpful especially to me when your mind might be clouded.

 

Jim Logan

Pittsburgh, PA

RUSA #3730

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Gardner Duvall

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Feb 4, 2024, 10:43:12 AMFeb 4
to Jim Logan, Randonneurs USA
Jim, the thing I dislike about intermediate control closing times was all the reasons, other than performance, that could put you behind.  Riders who get behind because of performance issues rarely can finish in time, but other things can put you behind without resulting in a DNQ.  I would like to see RBAs, as a matter of practice, put the now unofficial closing times in the control cues of their GPS files.  It is useful information, as I discovered on a slow 200k yesterday.

Geoff Hazel

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Feb 5, 2024, 11:43:36 AMFeb 5
to Randonneurs USA
I support this decision, and also agree that "target times" would be helpful.   I overslept on a break on a 600 and missed the next control cutoff, but MADE the next (and subsequent) ones in time.  That 600 ultimately ended in DNF due to a crash, but missing one control doesn't necessarily sentence a rider to a DNF.

Rob Hawks

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Feb 5, 2024, 12:30:28 PMFeb 5
to Geoff Hazel, Randonneurs USA
The announcement from the ACP about this change (dropping the requirement of open and close times for intermediate (not START and/or FINISH Controls) also included this:

  • "Brevet card can be replace by digital mean. Nevertheless, an organization must always offer to riders to use a physical brevet card if they want to."

Controls will still exist, and be listed on the brevet cards offered, so if in no other way, RBAs/RUSA regions should still make available what are now to be seen as suggested pace guidelines. Hopefully, these pace guidelines will also be in any cue sheets offered, and perhaps in other documentation offered to registered riders.

rob hawks
RUSA Brevet Coordinator
RUSA RBA Liaison

Iwan Barankay

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Feb 5, 2024, 12:38:41 PMFeb 5
to Randonneurs USA
I also love this rule change.

Participating, especially in long events like a 600, 1000, or RM, is expensive (travel, hotels, vacation days, arranging for kid/pet care), and nothing is worse than a bad mechanical that takes you off course, a heatstroke, or nausea that takes a few hours to fix to then find yourself DNQed because of missing the next cutoff.

Paul Vlasveld

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Feb 5, 2024, 1:51:56 PMFeb 5
to Jim Logan, Randonneurs USA
All,
I am glad the control opening and closing times are flexible. I do think control closing times listed as information only will help to determine if a rider will finish on time and help to determine how to catchup if the rider is behind.
Paul Vlasveld
San Jose, Ca
RUSA 108

Rob Hawks

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Feb 5, 2024, 2:21:01 PMFeb 5
to Paul Vlasveld, Jim Logan, Randonneurs USA
Paul,

To be clear, open and close times for intermediate controls (not the start control, not the finish control) are not flexible. They are simply gone. Intermediate controls are now untimed.

For *staffed* intermediate controls, I would expect that regions would only be required to staff them for what would have been open and close times (so the calculator tool will still be used), but it would be up to the region to staff outside of those times, again, if that control is staffed.

rob

Bill Bryant

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Feb 5, 2024, 2:34:21 PMFeb 5
to Rob Hawks, Paul Vlasveld, Jim Logan, Randonneurs USA

Thanks, Rob. Paul, the control times are *not* flexible. The start control has a fixed starting time set by the RBA and late riders can check in up to one hour after that before it closes.

 

There are controls that riders must reach along the route, but there is no more intermediate control timing anymore. However, RUSA and the ACP want RBAs to still post the control times as an *advisory* to help riders reach the final control inside the time window.

 

The final control opening and closing times are standard, using the familiar pacing time format from before.

 

For RBAs with a supported intermediate control with food/water, etc , they can use the checkpoint calculator tool to determine when they are “open” to help riders. They do not need to be there early for the faster riders, nor do they have to wait around longer for slower riders. It is all spelled out in the revised Rules For Riders.

 

Bill Bryant

 

Bill Bryant

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Feb 5, 2024, 10:02:33 PMFeb 5
to Gardner Duvall, Jim Logan, Randonneurs USA

Agreed – just as the ACP is encouraging all RBAs to do, I hope the checkpoint times will always be included to help the riders with their pacing and finish successfully. I know my club will be doing that.

 

Bill Bryant

RBA, Santa Cruz Randonneurs

 

 

From: randonn...@googlegroups.com <randonn...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gardner Duvall <gardner...@gmail.com>
Date: Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 7:43
AM
To: Jim Logan <jimlo...@gmail.com>
Cc: Randonneurs USA <randonn...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [RUSA] Remembering the comfort of knowing your "Time in the Bank"

Jake Kassen

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Feb 6, 2024, 7:46:45 AMFeb 6
to Bill Bryant, Gardner Duvall, Jim Logan, Randonneurs USA
Is RUSA changing the requirement that route submitters must include the (now advisory) control times in the cue sheet to have the route approved?

I think many RBAs already took a fairly permissive view on intermediate control times, particularly when the rider was otherwise making a good effort and was only delayed by a mechanical or short term physical delay.

I'm glad for the rule change although there where the uncommon cases of riders who were not taking the ride seriously and DQ'ing someone for a purposeful delay was a good way to be done with them.

Jake



> -------Original Message-------
> From: Bill Bryant <bi...@bryant-springsteen.net>
> To: Gardner Duvall <gardner...@gmail.com>, Jim Logan <jimlo...@gmail.com>
> Cc: Randonneurs USA <randonn...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [RUSA] Remembering the comfort of knowing your "Time in the Bank"
> Sent: 06 Feb '24 03:02
>
>
>
> Agreed – just as the ACP is encouraging all RBAs to do, I hope the
> checkpoint times will always be included to help the riders with their
> pacing and finish successfully. I know my club will be doing that.
>
> Bill Bryant
>
> RBA, Santa Cruz Randonneurs
>
> FROM: randonn...@googlegroups.com
> <randonn...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Gardner Duvall
> <gardner...@gmail.com>
> DATE: Sunday, February 4, 2024 at 7:43?AM
> TO: Jim Logan <jimlo...@gmail.com>
> CC: Randonneurs USA <randonn...@googlegroups.com>
> SUBJECT: Re: [RUSA] Remembering the comfort of knowing your "Time in
> the Bank"
>
> Jim, the thing I dislike about intermediate control closing times was
> all the reasons, other than performance, that could put you behind.
> Riders who get behind because of performance issues rarely can finish
> in time, but other things can put you behind without resulting in a
> DNQ. I would like to see RBAs, as a matter of practice, put the now
> unofficial closing times in the control cues of their GPS files. It
> is useful information, as I discovered on a slow 200k yesterday.
>
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2024 at 8:22?AM Jim Logan <jimlo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > SHORT VERSION:
> >
> > I will cheer RBA's that continue to publish closing control times.
> > (Though perhaps they need a new name).
> >
> > COMMENTS:
> >
> > I suspect control close times will fade from practice as both
> > control cards and cue sheets become less relevant. Speaking as
> > someone that often rode at the back of the back and near "control
> > speed", it is both comforting and motivating to know how much time
> > in the bank (i.e. time before control end time) you have when both
> > arriving at and leaving a control.
> >
> > While we rightly celebrate those that finish through all odds, I
> > think back to my Endless Mountains 1000 km in 2008. I got heat
> > exhaustion at 90 miles after passing RBA Tom on the roadside with
> > water (he knew something I didn't) then went dry . Rode another 1
> > ½ days without recovering. The first control I hit beyond control
> > time was a relief. I checked in to a motel, got a bit of rest, then
> > rode to the staffed (overnight) control to abandon. For me, that
> > was the right decision. I came back the next year to finish the
> > Endless Mountains 1240 km (as the last rider within the time limit).
> > Having clarify on control times (when lacking the ability to ride
> > faster than control time even when healthy) was helpful especially
> > to me when your mind might be clouded.
> >
> > Jim Logan
> >
> > Pittsburgh, PA
> >
> > RUSA #3730
> >
> > FROM: randonn...@googlegroups.com
> > <randonn...@googlegroups.com> ON BEHALF OF Bill Bryant
> > SENT: Saturday, February 3, 2024 4:14 PM
> > TO: randonn...@googlegroups.com
> > SUBJECT: [RUSA] New Rules Change for Controls
> >
> > Dear RUSA Members,
> >
> > The Audax Club Parisien has made a major change to its Brevets de
> > Randonneurs Mondiaux regulations that we follow at Randonneurs USA.
> > Starting immediately, there will only be timing at the final control
> > of each brevet. The RUSA Board of Directors has voted to follow this
> > and so our US brevets and populaires will no longer have timed
> > intermediate controls.
> >
> > The ACP is encouraging RBAs to still use the familiar opening and
> > closing times for intermediate controls, but this is to be only a
> > guideline to help riders stay inside the time window for a
> > successful finish at the final control, which will be timed. And,
> > following the recent change for events 1200 km and longer by Les
> > Randonneurs Mondiaux, US organizers for _grand randonnées_ can
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/CY5PR11MB65336A9E393875F305BC6F30F2402%40CY5PR11MB6533.namprd11.prod.outlook.com.
>

Jake Kassen

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Feb 6, 2024, 8:32:56 AMFeb 6
to randonn...@googlegroups.com
Probably way too soon to know but does it seem likely that ACP is going to drop intermediate control time enforcement for PBP? That could change the nature of PBP considerably.

On the longer events, I'm curious if we'll see a rise in the number of people who ride fairly fast for ~175 miles, take an extended break, and bolt again.

Jake

> -------Original Message-------
> From: Bill Bryant <bi...@bryant-springsteen.net>
> To: randonn...@googlegroups.com <randonn...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: [RUSA] New Rules Change for Controls
> Sent: 03 Feb '24 16:13
>
>
>
> Dear RUSA Members,
>
> The Audax Club Parisien has made a major change to its Brevets de
> Randonneurs Mondiaux regulations that we follow at Randonneurs USA.
> Starting immediately, there will only be timing at the final control
> of each brevet. The RUSA Board of Directors has voted to follow this
> and so our US brevets and populaires will no longer have timed
> intermediate controls.
>
> The ACP is encouraging RBAs to still use the familiar opening and
> closing times for intermediate controls, but this is to be only a
> guideline to help riders stay inside the time window for a successful
> finish at the final control, which will be timed. And, following the
> recent change for events 1200 km and longer by Les Randonneurs
> Mondiaux, US organizers for _grand randonnées_ can chose to use timed
> intermediate controls or not.
>
> What do you need to do? Ride events as you always would – you must
> follow the route and reach all the control points, but don't stress
> too much about the control times between the start and the finish; now
> it is the final checkpoint's timing that you need to be concerned
> with.
>
> Best wishes for a good year of randonneuring,
>
> The RUSA Board of Directors
>

Dave Thompson

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Feb 6, 2024, 8:41:07 AMFeb 6
to Jake Kassen, randonn...@googlegroups.com
They've already done that for PBP. 

Dave.

John Lee Ellis

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Feb 6, 2024, 8:42:46 AMFeb 6
to Jake Kassen, randonn...@googlegroups.com
Interesting scenario, Jake. 

Speaking of 1200k+ events, LRM-sanctioned events have a different policy about intermediate checkpoints. They may be timed or untimed, at the discretion of the organizer. We will be publishing rules to cover our LRM events. (The revised Rules for Riders covers ACP-sanctioned brevets and RUSA-sanctioned populaires and brevets.)

-jle

Jake Kassen

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Feb 6, 2024, 9:06:41 AMFeb 6
to tho...@pobox.com, randonn...@googlegroups.com

Ha, my question reflects someone who hasn't been to PBP since 2007. :)

I will say I spent a lot of time panicking that year that I was going to be slightly over the time at an intermediate control and DNF. Not the most enjoyable memory.

Jake

> -------Original Message-------
> From: Dave Thompson <thomp...@gmail.com>
> To: Jake Kassen <li...@jkassen.org>
> Cc: randonn...@googlegroups.com <randonn...@googlegroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [RUSA] New Rules Change for Controls
> Sent: 06 Feb '24 08:41
>
> They've already done that for PBP.
>
> Dave.
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2024 at 8:32?AM Jake Kassen <li...@jkassen.org>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/CAG3t2nyA1kLxE0mPzBGmLmkDRa7QA_JjTShgxyuVy0Qu9%3DQ%3DqA%40mail.gmail.com.
>

Michelle Grainger

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Feb 6, 2024, 11:14:45 AMFeb 6
to Jake Kassen, tho...@pobox.com, Randonneurs USA
Just my 2 cents…

When I entered the world of Randonneurring, I had (already) spent a half a lifetime of racing in all lengths of races and events. Including, an extensive background in ultra distance racing. I learned how to be fast for long periods of time and to go with out sleep, while eating and drinking, to keep fueling while riding hard.

When I entered the world of Randonneurring, I found an amazing new part of the sport that both intrigued me and frustrated me. I had to learn something different. I had to learn to slow down, stop rushing, pace myself and ride with others. OH yeah! … and read a que sheet and map. I was no longer in a racing world of “hurry and finish”. I loved the richness of tradition and rules that didn't make sense to me but made sense to the sport, on a level that was bigger than me. Bigger than get there in a hurry and see how fast I can be. I love that we have to follow a map and follow a route that someone else finds important enough to share with others.

I imagine some of the new rule(s) is to allow for less volunteers, less congestion, less hassle. But for me, I will always vote for maps, que sheets,signing in and out, and meeting a store clerk and explaining what we are doing, having to slow down or go faster or sleep in a ditch or a hotel or get lost or see things we never saw before because we didn't have to pace the ride. I liked to describe Randonneurring (to people) as Rally Car Racing.


"Rallying is a wide-ranging form of motorsport with various competitive motoring elements such as speed tests (sometimes called "rally racing" in United States), navigation tests,
or the ability to reach waypoints or a destination at a prescribed time or average speed.”

In a world where we are all loosing traditions, loosing connections to others, and loosing a little bit of ourselves, I am sad that Randonneurring might lose it’s richness of history and it’s own traditions.

When I come back to Randonneurring, I hope my Control Card will have opening and closing times and if I get to a control too quickly (doubt it), I will have to sit and chat with a stranger about what I am doing.

PS.
I am all for the fast paces of events but with the understanding that these fast riders, too, shall follow opening and closing times-that’s what makes it interesting.

A big shout out to all of the volunteers! Thank you for your time and dedication!

Michelle

Michelle Grainger
michelle...@gmail.com
www.athleticexcellence.net
> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/20240206140633.42389.qmail%40server263.com.

Fred Chagnon

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Feb 9, 2024, 2:52:34 PMFeb 9
to Michelle Grainger, Jake Kassen, tho...@pobox.com, Randonneurs USA
I think the open/close times will still exist for a long time as guidelines, if not forever. I don't think the tradition is getting lost. But now that I've said it publicly in email that will be archived forever, anyone is welcome to tell me how wrong I was. 

It will be interesting to see how this manifests in making the sport more challenging or not. Speaking for myself personally, if I were to miss an intermediate control time, and be DNF'd, that would have been heart-breaking. However, going forward, if I arrive at a control late, I need to deal with the stress of having to catch up. Just having that issue to deal with is a mental load not unlike a dying headlight battery, or a creaky bottom bracket, or a nagging knee pain -- just a mental load that I really don't need. So you can bet I'm still going to be holding myself accountable to those cutoff times in order to avoid the spiral of mental stress that keeps my ride from being enjoyable.  

And hey, if I can work myself up to a level of fitness where the unenforced OPEN times become a concern, I'll be right there waiting along with you. :)

PS - I love the rally car analogy and am totally going to use it. 



--
Fred Chagnon
fcha...@gmail.com

Robert Sexton

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Feb 9, 2024, 3:35:44 PMFeb 9
to Jake Kassen, randonn...@googlegroups.com
As best as I understand from riding PBP, Randonneuring lore, and from stories about conversations with ACP officials - 

PBP intermediate control times have been 'Advisory' for a while.    

Perhaps some anciennes could supply stories of strict enforcement.   Have the limits ever been strictly enforced?

- Robert




--
Robert Sexton

Bill Bryant

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Feb 9, 2024, 3:45:04 PMFeb 9
to Robert Sexton, Jake Kassen, randonn...@googlegroups.com

Yes, they were, Robert, but not much, if at all in the 21st century.

 

In the past, we struggled to be sure we made the cut-offs at PBP. What happened, I think, is that the local clubs knocked themselves out to host riders at controls in their town, but then having to be “the bad guy” was something they didn’t want to do. The ACP wanted them to keep hosting the controls – after all, w/o good controls there would be no PBP. So, the ACP despite saying the intermediate controls “must be respected,” turned a blind eye as increasingly more riders were pass through controls despite being out of time. In the 1980s, enforcement was definitely “a thing”, but it started to shift somewhat in the 90s, and after the turn of the century, many riders knew they could keep riding to Paris, even if outside time at some intermediate controls, especially following a sleep break. (And the regs still said riders had to meet the cut-offs.) In any case, by 2023 it was a moot point, the ACP officially said they were now “an advisory” (and in practice, that had been happening for a good many recent editions.) But yes, in the past, the intermediate controls were enforced. Also note that the ACP brevets since 1921 enforced them too, but again, in the 21st century, that began to change.

 

Bill Bryant

 

From: 'Robert Sexton' via Randonneurs USA <randonn...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Friday, February 9, 2024 at 12:35

PM

Don Bennett

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Feb 9, 2024, 4:26:43 PMFeb 9
to Bill Bryant, Robert Sexton, Jake Kassen, randonn...@googlegroups.com

> Perhaps some anciennes could supply stories of strict enforcement.   Have the limits ever been strictly enforced?

Even at the PBP finish control, the 90hr cutoff has a bit of leeway; there appears to be a variable amount of time, up to perhaps 30ish minutes, where a rider may be credited with a 90hr finish before being recorded as HD. (haven't checked the 2023 stats)

I can even tell you a story of a sleep-deprived woman who did not physically arrive at the finish control but received credit for a 90hr finish due to multiple affidavits of her presence in the vicinity of the finish control inside the time limit.

Don Bennett


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