Ultra distance races for RUSA credit

[ken jessett]

Some of you may know I have been running Bessiescreek24 races for a number of years. These are one time per year races around a loop road circuit. Is it possible that I could add the 500 mile race to the RUSA list as a perm?

Remember, this is a once a year race and for the 500+ mile race the riders must complete the given number of miles - just as we do for a brevet of perm.

Any advice?

Ken Jessett

[Charlie Martin]

These are one time per year races around a loop road circuit. Is it possible that I could add the 500 mile race to the RUSA list as a perm?

Please review the Guidelines for Permanent Route Contributors. The answer is no:

The route may start and finish in the same place, or finish in a different location (point-to-point), and follow any number of shapes in between, but may not contain repeated loops.

- Charlie

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[Jeff Loomis]

It seems like this rule would also apply, even if the route itself were legal.

Article 14

A permanent ride cannot be counted as participation in, or as credit for, another ride.

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[Iwan Barankay]

It's an interesting and important question what "ride" is referring to on the RUSA rules and whether we are allowed to record for credit permanent rides that are part of non-RUSA events.

Here is my opinion on this. Note I am not a RUSA official!

RUSA only governs their own rides so to me this implies that "ride" can only refer to RUSA rides. Therefore as long as a permanent is not ridden at the same time as a RUSA brevet with the same route (or part of it) it can be counted for RUSA credit 

To illustrate this point, consider Strava. When we record our brevet and permanent rides on Strava, Strava counts them towards our achievements and stats there as well and issues trophies and counts them towards our statistics. 

Unless I missed it, RUSA does not forbid us from uploading our rides to Strava and does not prevent us from joining Strava Challenges to earn trophies, join Strava clubs and be on their leaderboards, add those rides to our Strava statistics, etc.

By the same token, it seems to me that we should be able to record RUSA permanents rides for credit that are part of non-RUSA events.

I am not saying I am in favor or encouraging this practice but for all intents and purposes it does not strike me as a violation of the RUSA rules to record a ride as a permanent that was part of a non-RUSA event. 

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[Phillip Stern]

I’m pretty sure you are incorrect. 

As I understand it you cannot receive outside aid for a perm. If you are in an event you are likely riding with others that are not registered for the perm. If you draft them, that counts as aid. As would any aid stations with water or food provided by the event. 

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[Iwan Barankay]

Yes, I agree. That is Article 6.

But if you are on an ultra-distance event that is self-supported and does not allow drafting and you record feed-stations as controls (or not eat at feed stations) you should be fine.

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[ken jessett]

"..does not allow drafting ". 

I have always found it confounding that RUSA allows drafting but not any other kind of support on a ride. I once offered a fellow randonneur to drive behind him on a night brevet - after I had finished earlier - with my lights to help guide him on poor quality roads, but was quickly informed that was not allowed. In business we used to refer to this kind of caprice as 'cherry picking'.

Ken J.

[Cesar Villegas]

Sounds like you are running a race, a brevet/perm is not a race. And thats ok! We can have different types of endurance riding. 

Rusa allows drafting other people who are in the ride, that's not external support. Drafting others NOT signed up for the ride would be against the rules. 

[Iwan Barankay]

Article 6 could be clearer and there is much room for discretion and interpretation, reflecting the many approaches and riding styles we see across events.

 

 

“Article 6

Each rider must be self sufficient. No personal follow cars or support of any kind are permitted on the course. Personal support is only allowed at checkpoints. Riding with others who are not on the event or on another RUSA ride is considered receiving unpermitted support.

Riders must conduct themselves in a civil manner and abide by all applicable vehicle codes, laws, and regulations. Riders must respect local customs with regards to decorum.  Riders must respect event staff and follow their directions as long as it is safe.”

 

Could you let me know what support is?

“…No personal follow cars or support of any kind are permitted on the course. Personal support is only allowed at checkpoints…”

No support of any kind? That is just impossible. Does it mean that, e.g., when someone holds the door open at a control gas station because my hands are full, I get disqualified? Or I fall from my bike, and someone picks it up to get it off the road. To me, “of any kind” makes no sense, and I think otherwise, most results would need to be deleted for rule violations!

 

 

We can agree on what support is, e.g., someone meeting you in the middle of the course to bring you a “fresh” bike and clothes. But we can quickly disagree about what isn’t support, e.g. if a friend shows up to say hi – which may be trivial and negligible in most situations but can be a blessing in real times of need.

 

What is “riding with others?”

“…Riding with others who are not on the event or on another RUSA ride is considered receiving unpermitted support….”

 

We can think of obvious and very unclear cases.

Most of us would frown upon arranging for a friend not registered for the event to meet you and ride a substantial portion of the route with you, especially when they bring you food and you can draft on them.

 

However, when riding through urban areas or narrow roads, one might get stuck behind other cyclists or buses, allowing us to draft or talk with them. Is that “riding with others?” Do we need to keep away from other cyclists who are not registered for the ride? That sounds too strict.

 

The RBA or RUSA has a lot of discretion, and as long as they are adjudicated without bias and discrimination, it is good to have wiggle room to accommodate circumstances.

 

What matters is the spirit of the event. We are riders committing ourselves to riding long distances to controls and are self-supported, whatever that means to you.

 

More importantly, we should not design events or routes to minimize the scope for cheating. We should first aim to create events that are as scenic, safe, and accessible as possible while meeting the rules.

 

 

 

 

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[Gary DelNero]

When I started doing these rides several years ago, I learned that I had inadvertently violated a support rule putting a complete series in jeopardy.
I did some research into all references I could find at the time and created this guide.

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[Iwan Barankay]

Interesting document.

Thanks for sharing it.

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[ken jessett]

If RUSA was to be conducted along democratic principles, perhaps it is time for a new guard to review the rules and make recommendations to bring the organization into modern day expectations.

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[Bill Bryant]

Hey Ken –

1. All of the RUSA leaders have been elected by the membership. Our organization was begun in 1998 to replace the undemocratic previous US rando-organization. You might notice we are entering our yearly election cycle.

2. Begun in 1921 by the Audax Club Parisien, modern randonneuring combines various traditional and contemporary aspects of self-supported long-distance cycling – but we still stick to the original concept of noncompetitive, self-supported “allure libre” long-distance riding. Randonneuring is about challenging oneself, not beating other riders. Our rules define our sport – BRM randonneuring is not racing, and trying to combine it with other events, especially competitive events, is not allowed under our rules. You may not like that, but plenty of our members do indeed like the camaraderie found in our non-competitive style of riding. I don’t see that as a problem that needs to be solved or improved as you seem to.

 

3. Our rules and regulations are regularly updated as seen fit by the RUSA Board of Directors. Another update is currently underway this year. But in general, we stick to the world-wide BRM format of randonneuring. Apparently many riders like this type of challenging riding: at the most recent Paris-Brest-Paris randonneur in 2023, nearly 7,000 riders from around the globe gathered for our quadrennial celebration of BRM riding.

 

If you don’t like the well-established BRM format and ethos found at Randonneurs USA, I hope you will pursue some other type of competitive riding that would make you happier. Bonne route!

 

Bill Bryant

RUSA #7

 

 

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[ken jessett]

Well, you are probably right, Bill, God forbid anyone should ever question or suggest improvements.

[Phil Fox]

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On Oct 13, 2024, at 7:42 AM, ken jessett <kenje...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Thomas Dermody]

I don’t remember who I should attribute this to, but a comment I overheard about the record setting finish by an American Randonneur at PBP 2023: “Quite an achievement; I don’t know what he was doing, but it wasn’t Paris-Best-Paris.” 

Ride with aloha.

On Oct 12, 2024, at 17:48, Phil Fox <phili...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Bill Gobie]

On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 1:42 PM ken jessett <kenje...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, you are probably right, Bill, God forbid anyone should ever question or suggest improvements.

This is an unkind and inaccurate remark. 

If one is the sort of person inclined to lawlerly parse rules reductio ad absurdum then perhaps this sport is not for you.

Bill Gobie

[Cesar Villegas]

Like board member elections perhaps?

[James Logan]

Since there is all sort of serious talk about what is support on RUSA events, this is my funniest story on same.  This is a story I never get to tell much.

It happened during Endless Mountains 1240 km in 2009.  I finished lanterne rouge within time limit for the event.  That was still respectable, as 40% didn't finish.  (This was the cold wet rainy year, riding in October).  That setting the stage, I rode mostly in a state of quiet desperation the latter days of the event. 

Anyhow, perhaps on day 2 or day 3, I rode off a mountain on the wrong side.  Not terribly wrong, and I probably could have quietly ridden around the base of the mountain a bit to get back on course.  But that seemed stretching the rules too much.  Instead, I waived down a nice lady and her teenage son who I convinced to let me and my bike ride in the back of their SUV back up the mountain, so I could get back on course where I departed from it.

I finished the entire course without getting any support on course, so in my mind I could live with that.

Jim Logan

Pittsburgh, PA

RUSA 3730

[Ken Lanteigne]

To the extent that your Bessiescreek24 event had a brand image with RUSA members, it has now been replaced. 

RUSA members love riding bikes, and all of us ride non RUSA events. In fact riding something completely different for a change is compelling. Whether it's cyclocross or 24 hour races or bike packing or MTB racing or riding with family. Just put on a good event people want to ride. 

Word spreads, either way.

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[Kitty Goursolle]

Gary and I have both been in RAAM, with full support, and also many RUSA and RM rides, including PBP.  Thanks to Gary for your document!  You said it all.

And time for a "funny" story! During the 2008 Cascade 1200 I was caught in a fierce downpour going up Loup Loup pass. While I was huddled under a tree to wait out the worst of it, a woman  driving a truck stopped to ask me if she could give me and my bike a ride somewhere. I had to tell her,  "No, that would disqualifly me from the event I'm doing".  The look she gave me was priceless. That's Rando!  

I know lots of RUSA member who ride organized events with support such as Sebring 12-24,  double centuries, The 508, the list goes on and on.  The one is good  training for the other.  Cheers to everyone, and enjoy whatever sort of cycling you do. 

[Jake Kassen]

Good story.

One of the many things I like about Randonneuring is the resourcefulness it requires.

Everyone who's been active for a while can think of times something went wrong and after a few profanities, we switch into "How Do I Fix This" engineering mode. The best stories, by far, are from the times when a novel fix or magical serendipity saved the day.

Jake

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[Keith G]

My weighing in at this point will be of little value, but I was compelled all the same. 

Further, my take is philosophical, difficult to articulate, hard to codify as a "rule", and defies succinctness.

My interpretation of the RUSA rules that mention looped courses and "other rides" is to prevent RUSA from becoming competitive or even competitive-adjacent.

Randonneuring is, and always ought to be, a non-competitive endeavor.  To preserve this "spirit", the routes and events should endeavor to achieve a true measure of the distance covered through reaching distinct places far afield, and keeping in mind words like adventure, destination, excursion, and journey.

Therefore, credit toward RUSA awards and mileage totals meant to embody those qualities ought not include miles earned through participation in a competitive event, in my mind.

I don't think RUSA should be criticized for being closed off to new thinking here, but instead praised for trying to preserve the aforementioned intangibles - assuming their thoughts on this are even in the same neighborhood as mine.

Ask anyone that was involved with Unbound in the early days, and consider a quote that I'll paraphrase from a fellow not-to-be-named-here randonneur/ultra-racer:  "nothing ruins a good bike ride like a race."

Rules, no rules, whatever:  having been there myself, "Lap 5" and beyond of any looped course is a special layer of hell and generally not something that preserves the spirit of randonneuring.

"Oh look, that McDonald's bag moved a little."   <-- actually happens.

Yes, we all CAN just get along ... but we'll need two different memberships.  That's fine by me.

Granted, I wasn't a very good ultra racer, so ... take my opinions with several electrolytes.

Keith Gates

RUSA #1445

[Iwan Barankay]

Great perspective Keith!

I do believe though that there are many types of riders, each of them have a different approach to riding events. Brevets are not races but we do record and publish times (why?).

Also many of us are participating in ultra-distance races not to win but for the experience or the route. Certainly I did.

Back to the point as to whether participating in a race can be used for permanent credit: there already exist such permanents on the RUSA books and people did receive RUSA credit for them (not mentioning them here as I don't want them to be dragged into the discussion or possibly into trouble).

Iwan

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[Nick Dawe]

We all appreciate the work our volunteer elected leaders and RBA’s and other volunteers donate to make ACP / RUSA and all the other national organizations work. Just having returned from India, and being able to seamlessly join a 400k Brevet with 70 participants, be welcomed and be mutually supported for 24hrs as a stranger in a strange land, you will all agree, our sport is pretty fantastic.

We respect the heritage of our sport. We record times, list names alphabetically and ride self supported. This is our essence, our dna.

Can we double dip in the sense of riding events, Unbound 200 is an example, as Brevets or Permanents because there is mutual aid and drafting ? Done well, with the aid stations being Controls, maybe ?

Asking a similar question, but a subtly different question, can we organize a permanent route that mimics, is largely similar to an event route, but ridden on different days than the event, maybe practicing for the event or maybe because the event course is just so challenging or pretty, it is worthy of being ridden anytime ? Is it feasible to create 300k permanents in the Flint Hills of Kansas starting in Emporia, for example  ?

I appreciate your thoughts on this question,

Nick Dawe

#10908

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[Iwan Barankay]

Hi Nick,

Not sure what would be approved if you were to submit such a route now but there already exist a number of race routes as permanents.

The best way to find out is to submit such a new permanent for approval!

I.

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[Jake Kassen]

> Asking a similar question, but a subtly different question, can we
> organize a permanent route that mimics, is largely similar to an event
> route, but ridden on different days than the event, maybe practicing
> for the event or maybe because the event course is just so challenging
> or pretty, it is worthy of being ridden anytime ? Is it feasible to
> create 300k permanents in the Flint Hills of Kansas starting in
> Emporia, for example ?

This is pretty common in some regions and fine by RUSA. It's still respectful to ask the RBA or the event route designer to be the one to submit the perm or at least their permission to do so. It's also courteous to not ride the perm on the day of the brevet unless the organizer suggests otherwise.

In terms of changing the start location, this is not necessary if the route passes the location you'd prefer to begin the attempt. One of the things I LOVE about the new perm program is the ability to start anywhere and use whatever route you want, provided you pass the same controls in sequence and complete the same distance.

I rarely ride perms as designed -- often my attempt route is entirely different apart from the controls. I try to add as much dirt as possible and pick smaller roads, even if it adds distance. It might be blasphemy to say this, but I'm finding I enjoy perms more then brevets for this reason. What I enjoy most about RUSA is exploration with the mild incentive to not linger.

Jake