There's a New Drink Mix in Town....

[Dan Driscoll]

Randos,

A fellow Randonneur, Andrew Adere, RUSA #13914, started a sports nutrition company, “Geluminati", they are currently selling a powdered endurance drink mix, of carbs and electrolytes. It's working great for the long riding we do. It nets 240 kcal / 60g carbs per bottle, along with 420mg sodium, and some potassium and magnesium.

The real delight, is how light it is - both in taste and on your tummy. I’ve used this product for months and on many long Hot rides this year, with zero issues. When I’m pushing on the bike, solid food is annoying to get down, this drink mix goes down easy and works well for a more constant flow of calories and electrolytes, than what I can get with solid food and pills. 

One thing that sets this mix above simple surgery mixes, is the use of a new type of complex carb, highly branched cyclic dextrin (HBCD), as its main ingredient. This carb is formed of incredibly long chains of glucose, it's property allows it to clear the stomach quickly and then break down slowly in the intestine. It eliminates the gut distress, that I get with Maltodextrin. Even with all the energy and electrolytes, the HBCD allows the mix to be hypo-tonic, which means the drink is still going to be hydrating even with 60gms of carbs, per bottle.

On top of using this new type of carb for its useful properties, the mix also uses the 1:0.8 glucose:fructose ratio that research has shown to be most effective in reducing gut distress and increasing carbohydrate processing (how many calories you can digest in an hour). I’m a fan of a combination of High Glycemic simple sugars and complex carbs. 

If you are not thrilled with your current drink mix, I'd recommend giving this a shot. Shipping can give a bit of sticker shock but it doesn't go up much if you buy multiple bags at once, and if you buy 10 the 10th is free. After testing with the first bag, I bought 10 at a time for the economy. Maybe get a few buddies to go in on the first try? 

The website is www.geluminati.com  and you can email Andrew at in...@geluminati.com with questions, he’s been super helpful to me. If you decide to give Andrew’s product a try, please email him and let him know you are a Randonneur, it’s our hope that we can get him as an advertiser in the American Randonneur Magizine ;=) 

DanD 

[Dan Driscoll]

Sorry, remove the www.   From the web link below to get it to work…..

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[Andrew Adere]

All,

Website is geluminati.com, the www. is mucking things up currently.

Thanks Dan!

Andrew

[Joshua Haley]

Andrew,

 Do you sell any sample-sized packs?  I'd like to try it out before I commit.  I hate wasting extra stuff if I don't have to. 

Josh

[Andrew Adere]

Joshua,

I can do a 1/4 kg bag for $10 + shipping. We don't currently have nice bags and labels for this size so it'll be in a ziploc bag with a logo and nutrition facts taped to it.

If that works for you, send me a direct email with your address and I can check what shipping will be.

Thanks!

Andrew

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[Andrew Adere]

Hey y'all, Geluminati has our first Black Friday sale on right now -  get free shipping when you buy 3 or more bags of our Endurance Drink Mix. The sale runs today thru Monday, 11/28. Promo code: BLACKFRIDAY22  www.geluminati.com

If you're interested in trying the mix out at a lower cost commitment, I can do $10 1/4kg bags which is about 4 doses, and shipping on those has typically run about $5.

I've got pouches for the 1/4kg bags but the smaller labels are still a work in progress so they're not available on the store yet - just send me an email here if you're interested.

Full mailchimp announcement here

Thanks and thank you to everyone who's bought some! Hope everyone had a happy Thanksgiving!

Andrew

[Joshua Haley]

I thought I should add a review here.  I bought a sample from Andrew a few months back and finally had a chance to use it on a long set of rides (400k, then 600k a couple of days later during the North Florida Brevet Week). 

 My thoughts 

• It was pleasantly sweet, but not overly so.  Definitely not sugary like a Gatorade, I'd say it reminded me of a very mild sweet tea and was able to be mixed with a bit of coffee or lemon juice for a pleasant flavor. 
• It was 100% better than Perpetuem or the other hammer offerings in my opinion; I could actually drink this down rather than bonk and get dehydrated.   Taste and tolerance are user-specific, so I can't tell you you'll like it, other than if you don't like Hammer, you might like this. 
• I felt noticeably less drained on the segments I drank this on before getting to the control for a more traditional refuel. 
• It was hot in Florida while I was drinking this, and I didn't need as many additional salt pills given that I was drinking it more consistently. 

Overall, I did not use it in every bottle (I get sick of stuff quickly!) but did use it about every 2-3 hours.  It kept me at a steady state level and I just topped off protein at the usual control stops.   I bought a couple of bags to use this season. 

Josh

[ken jessett]

Interesting observation. I used SPIZ on a long hot ride yesterday (3,000 + feet climbing) - the first time I have used it for several years and whilst I suffered no electrolyte imbalances during the ride the after effect was quite awful with gas erupting long after bed.

Is there the perfect electrolyte drink? Mostly I quaff Saltstick capsules by the mouthful but it is easy to neglect that on the bike. I carry have a couple of pickle juice bottles I try to remember to drink and I do not like any of the gassy NUUM lookalikes for the same reason that I should abandon the SPIZ.

Long, hot, tiring bike riders (me anyway) need help, but I am beginning the recognize the hunt is in vain for a comfortable and reasonably priced electrolyte replacement option.

Ken J.

[Gary DelNero]

I'm curious to know what else you ate besides the spiz. I used to put chocolate milk in the bottle after the spiz but found that made me gassy. 

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android

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[ken jessett]

I eat my usual fodder for these long, hot, humid, windy rides. I have an open top  'go-to' bag attached to my handlebars with a turkey/cheese sandwich on the bottom and a couple of banana bread slices laying on top of that finished off with a container of salted pretzels - all to be able to eat without having to stop. Other than the Spiz this time - half cup scoop per 24 oz. - and a few Saltstick capsules that was it. 

[Megan Bilodeau]

I've already re-upped and bought more bags of Geluminati! I would say it is more like a Maurten-style mix, but less sugary tasting. I enjoy it and find it quite tolerable and providing of steady state energy. I also trade off with something a bit more electrolyte-y and less caloric, but was really pleased with the product and with supporting MidAtlantic folks.

--Meg Bilodeau

[ken jessett]

I tried Scratch a few times that were given to me by a racer at Bessies Creek, I though it was okay and would have tried more if it had been available locally.

All these specialty drinks are really quite pricey and add in the cost of shipping and they represent and big junk of one's riding excursions. The wonderful elixir promised by the Gods comes with a hefty outlay from the wallet.

Ken J.

[Ken Lanteigne]

Well thanks, Dan.

Just when I think I have things sorted out, I read something compelling like this and now I have to embark on a new round of experiments. 

On Tue, Mar 7, 2023 at 6:43 PM 'Dan Driscoll' via Randonneurs USA <randonn...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

We are all different animals…. But for me, I’ve found a drink mix that worked right out of the bag for long brutal rides, I did 7 Super Sixes last year using Geluminati for most all of those miles. 

Planning Super Sixes, I balance the weight of carrying powder in baggies, up the hills, against the benefit of easily digestible calories, it’s a win for me. 

I do not drink plain water, I prefer calories and electrolytes in my fluid. 

I too, am a bit of a chemist when it comes to adding caffeine, fat and protein to the baggies of Geluminati, as needed, but not enough of a chemist to try to buy all the raw powders and blend it up myself. 

When I factor in the cost of flights, hotels and taxies, to do a remote Super Six, the cost of the all important human fuel is insignificant, in comparison. 

My hats off to those that can stomach Malto Dextrin, I just can’t, I know it’s cheap, and more of just a simple sugar, but the side effects are not worth the savings, for me, and that is why I’ve not been able to stomach Spiz. 

I like the combination of fast and slow burning carbs, the taste and the results that I’ve had from Geluminati. 

Just today filled 40 snack bags in anticipation of a fun 1,200km in Florida, in a little over a week from now. 

On top of all of that Geluminati has just signed on as a RUSA Advertiser helping to fund the American Randonneur Magizine. 

You can use discount code RUSA5 for $5.00 off your order, and it will let them know that you are a Rando customer. 

Order 2 or more bags and you will get free shipping. 

Andrew (part owner) is a Randonneur. 

Geluminati.com

Happy Trails, 

DanD 

On Mar 7, 2023, at 7:14 AM, ed bernasky <edber...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've used highly branched cyclic dextrin in my home brew powder for years and it is easier to mix than maltodextrin and I can tolerate more calories per hour with it.   Although I have not tried this particular brew, the base sugar in it is a keeper in my experience and worth a try.  There are not too many commercial products on the market with highly branched cyclic dextrin as the primary sugar.  In the past there were none.  Highly branched cyclic dextrin is rather expensive compared to maltodextrin but just the improved solubility is worth it to me.  I always get clumping with malto and with highly branched cyclic dextrin, it is easier to get into solution at the gas station cafe.

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[Mitch Ishihara]

Thanks for the coupon code Dan. Perhaps it is time for me to give Geluminati a try!

My non-scientific, non-double-blind experience with Skratch Labs Superfuel Raspberry, another highly branched cyclic dextrin (HBCD) product, supplementation has been as follows:

Positives

• Less gastric discomfort (or none!) with extended use on longer brevets compared to Maltodextrin based products such as Perpetuem 
• Much less stomach acid reflux issues (or none) with extended use on longer brevets compared to Gatorade (I can only drink Gatorade Frost, the white color in an occasional emergency when I messed up on regular food fuel and ran out of Superfuel supplementation)
• Perceived energy and output while exercising greater than using none - plus avoid the bonk!
• Less perceived energy and output than with Perpetuem but also less cramping issues, perhaps due to less over exertion

Negatives

• Expensive, I watch for seasonal direct sales discounts and stock up
• Less readily available in retail bike stores, if at all.
• Sticky when it gets on the water bottle, bike, and hands. Worse, a friend once sprayed the contents of a water bottle on oneself mistaking the plain water bottle with the HBCD supplemented water bottle.

Some interesting reads when doing a Google search for: highly branched cyclic dextrin, for what they are worth:

• https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25080121/ - includes a listing of published papers
• https://academic.oup.com/bbb/article/78/12/2117/5939517/ 
  • the graph of blood glucose over time provides an informative reference to guide consumption amount, timing, and latencies
  • the nonesterified fatty acids (NEFAs) interests me in the context of possible overall impact to health

cheers,

Mitch

[Dan Driscoll]

Thank you very much, Mitch…

As you know I’m just an average Rando, trying to accomplish extraordinary goals, that many others could do with just plain water and rice crispy treats. 

Everything has to click just right for me to get through some of these tough rides, smoothing out the highs and lows, of energy is a crucial component for me. 

I like to skip stops whenever possible and stay on the bike. PBP can be 100km between controls, and I want to be trained to do that without effort. My body can only absorb so many calories an hour, so if I skip an hour of calorie consumption on the bike, I start to dig a hole, and then over eat at the next control, and then move slower than Snail Snot and get sleepy, a very frustrating way to get through a 1,200km.  

You are much more scientific than I am, and I enjoy reading your notes. I’ve tried more than a few bags of Skratch Labs Super Fuel, I was having to dilute it with other simple sugars, and could not stomach it for an entire Super Six, and not drinking enough due to the mix. Geluminati.com has been a better fit for my body. If you decide to try it, I’ll be interested to know your thoughts. 

DanD 

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[JEFF NEWBERRY]

Just bought two bags. I've been a Scratch user for years. Went through a few bags of their Super Fuel, ultimately decided it was a little harsh on the stomach. (I kicked Perpetuem to the curb years ago. I don't miss the routine vomiting.) As a general.operating principle, when you think you have THE nutritional answer, keep your eyes open to potentially better answers, keep looking for improvement. I'm told I was such an effective and efficient crawler, I was slow to pick up walking. Like, naw, this is working pretty well for me, thank you. So, I watch for that tendency of mine, to be slow to adopt new, possibly better ways.

Jeff

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[ken jessett]

Nice discussions. If only the human body was like an internal combustion engine, pour in the oil, add water to the radiator and you're off and running just like every other vehicle.

I have a 'very' long ride coming up, I'll give G a try. Now where is that coupon?

Ken J.

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[Mitch Ishihara]

I also use Skratch Superfuel as a supplement to regular starchy food during a ride and dilute it ~50% since my water cooling anatomy turns into a shower the warmer it gets. When it gets too hot (90F+), I have gone to mostly water with electrolytes. 

Happy science project experiments on wheels everyone!

Mitch

[ken jessett]

In aeons to come when we have AI hybrid capabilities - which will be a vast improvement on most humans around today - we will come with pop-up indicators advising of our various metabolic levels so we will know we need an electrolyte and calorific top-up. In the mean time we have to hoof it.

I just bought two bags of G and a bag of orange Skratch, so I'm now prepared to ride over the horizon during the next Texas weather onslaught without collapsing on the side of the country road with only the Brahman cows over the fence for company.

Ken. J

[Ted Fay]

Thanks for the thread, everyone! This is a journey for all, and the hype + bad information abounds. I've personally found the combination of "real food" (poor man's burritos with flour tortillas, brown rice, scrambled eggs, other various adds, or peanut butter sandwiches, plus bananas) and Nuun's powdered drinks has worked well for me on longer rides. I had been an advocate for the Nuun tablets on shorter rides (< a century), but have been troubled by the amount of plastic waste they generate with their packaging. Now add in the recent WaPost article on Stevia and other sugar subs, and I'm out on the Nuun tabs (https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/interactive/2023/sugar-substitutes-health-effects/). Back to searching for the elusive electrolyte replacement without sugar. My metabolism really struggles with sugar (massive cramping for one). Open to suggestions on this one.

[Michelle Grainger]

Hi All.

I’ve been following along. Of course everyone has to find what works best for them and this takes practice. Over 40 years of being in cycling and Sport, I have used many products to fuel and hydrate. Research has changed over these years and it’s good to keep up with science and then experiment as to what can work for each of us/you. Over these years I have used Metagenics, Gu, Endurox and Accelerade, ClifBar and now PowerBar. Throw in the trials of Nuun, Hammer, and some others that went drastically wrong and I settled on using what I knew I liked, what helped me to many goals accomplishments, and what was followed in science. I like and understand the science behind the multi use of glucose and fructose. I might add that I cannot seem to tolerate a fructose only drink but the mix seems to work well.

A few years ago, when a friend brought PowerBar back into the US, I gave the whole line a try. I wanted to compare how I performed and felt after years of using ClifBar products. The performance products of PowerBar left the US after a few years, when Nestle bought them, and changed their marketing. These products were/are still manufactured and sold and used in Europe. Now they are being brought back to the US, from Europe.

I’m posting some science and the reasoning behind why it is so important to be up to date on science/research in Sports Nutrition. Fueling for long events is critical for performance and brain function. Water is simply not enough and using multiple sources of sugars/glycogen is proving to be really helpful to athletes and their performance.

What I found using PowerBar products was a better feeling of hydration (not feeling thirsty) over the longer rides and less brain sleepiness. I was also able to mix and match the PowerBar products with other things found at events and in convenience stores when I didn't carry enough product from home. and Just my 2 cents.

"If glucose alone is provided as the carbohydrate source during exercise, the energy oxidation from carbohydrates is limited to approximately 60 grams per hour. Ingestion of different sources of carbohydrates as for example in C2MAX, can allow more than 60 grams of carbohydrate to be used per hour as a source of energy. Scientific research has shown this special 2:1 ratio of glucose and fructose can supply exercising muscles with more energy for a given time compared to glucose alone and can led to improvement in cycling time-trial performance (Currell/Jeukendrup, 20081).”

Found in this article:
https://blog.wiggle.co.uk/powerbar-blog-carb-intake-during-endurance-exercise

MORE:
Recently, we’ve received good PR with articles that provide information about the evolution of PowerBar. The link to the Running Insight article that Mary Garlatti arranged is below. Also see the link below to Eric’s interview with SlowTwitch. Eric also produced a holiday video and the details will follow shortly. Please share on your social media accounts.
Running Insight – PowerBar Returning To Its Roots
Slowtwitch.com – Catching Up with Eric Zaltas and the Re-Birth of PowerBar

TrainingPeaks hosted a virtual Endurance Coaching Summit in November. Registered Dietician and endurance athlete expert Patrick Wilson presented a segment called, “Gut Training for Endurance Athletes.” He said, “studies show that more of the ingested carbohydrate gets burned for energy when products are formulated with a 2 to 1 ratio of glucose and fructose.” This is our current C2Max formulation! This provides more evidence to support how PowerBar products improve performance. The 2 to 1 ratio of glucose and fructose, also known as C2Max is found in our Energize Bars, PowerGel Original, PowerGel Hydro, PowerGel Shots and IsoActive. See the link below for complete article.
TrainingPeaks – Gut Training for Endurance Athletes with Patrick Wilson


Full text articles are copyrighted. Follows are publicly available abstracts from a few key studies and consensus statements supporting the PowerBar Basics of Sports Nutrition presentation...

HYDRATION
SPECIAL COMMUNICATIONS: JOINT POSITION STATEMENT
Nutrition and Athletic Performance
This joint position statement is authored by the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (AND), Dietitians of Canada (DC), and American College of Sports Medicine (ACSM). The content appears in AND style. This paper is being published concurrently in Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise® and in the Journal of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, and the Canadian Journal of Dietetic Practice and Research. Individual name recognition is reflected in the acknowledgments at the end of the statement.
Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise: March 2016 - Volume 48 - Issue 3 - p 543-568
***follows is section from consensus statement relating to hydration***
Sweat rates vary during exercise from 0.3–2.4 L/h dependent on exercise intensity, duration, fitness, heat acclimatization, altitude, and other environmental conditions (heat, humidity, etc.).104,106,111,112 Ideally, athletes should drink sufficient fluids during exercise to replace sweat losses such that the total body fluid deficit is limited to <2% BW. Various factors may impair the availability of fluid or opportunities to consume it during exercise and for most competitive, high caliber athletes, sweat loss generally exceeds fluid intake. However, individual differences are seen in drinking behavior and sweat rates in sport, and result in a range of changes in fluid status from substantial dehydration to over-hydration.110
Routine measurement of pre- and post-exercise BW, accounting for urinary losses and drink volume, can help the athlete estimate sweat losses during sporting activities to customize their fluid replacement strategies.104 In the absence of other factors that alter body mass during exercise (eg, the significant loss of substrate which may occur during very prolonged events), a loss of 1 kg BW represents approximately 1 L sweat loss. The fluid plan that suits most athletes and athletic events will typically achieve an intake of 0.4 to 0.8 L/h,104 although this needs to be customized to the athlete’s tolerance and experience, their opportunities for drinking fluids and the benefits of consuming other nutrients (eg, carbohydrate) in drink form. Ingestion of cold beverages (0.5 °C) may help reduce core temperature and thus improve performance in the heat. The presence of flavor in a beverage may increase palatability and voluntary fluid intake.

FUELING
SMITH, J. W., D. D. PASCOE, D. H. PASSE, B. C. RUBY, L. K. STEWART, L. B. BAKER, and J. J.
ZACHWIEJA. Curvilinear Dose–Response Relationship of Carbohydrate (0–120 gIhʲ¹) and Performance.
Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 45, No. 2, pp. 336–341, 2013.
Background: There is a lack of consensus regarding the optimal
range of carbohydrate (CHO) ingestion rates recommended for endurance athletes. Purpose: This study
investigated the relationship between CHO dose and cycling time trial performance to identify an
optimal range of CHO ingestion rates for endurance performance. Methods: Fifty-one cyclists and
triathletes (28 T 7 yr, mean T SD) across four research sites completed four trials. Each trial
consisted of a 2-h constant load ride at 95% of the workload that elicited a 4-mmolILʲ¹ blood
lactate concentration immediately followed by a computer-simulated 20-km time trial, which subjects
were asked to complete as quickly as possible. Twelve CHO electrolyte (18 mmolILʲ¹ Na, 3 mmolILʲ¹
K, and 11 mmolILʲ¹ Cl) beverages (three at each site) were tested in a double-blind manner,
providing subjects 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90, 100, 110, and 120 g CHO (1:1:1 glucose–
fructose–maltodextrin) per hour during the 2-h constant load ride at a fluid intake rate of 1
LIhʲ¹. All subjects also consumed a noncaloric placebo on one counterbalanced test occasion. Data
were natural log transformed, subjected to a mixed-model analysis, and are reported as adjusted
treatment means. Results: We estimate incremental performance improvements of 1.0%, 2.0%, 3.0%,
4.0%, and 4.7% at 9, 19, 31, 48, and 78 gIhʲ¹, respectively, with diminishing performance
enhancement seen at CHO levels 978 gIhʲ¹. Conclusions: CHO beverage ingestion and endurance (È160
min) performance appear to be related in a curvilinear dose–response manner, with the best
performance occurring with a CHO (1:1:1 glucose–fructose–maltodextrin) ingestion rate of 78
gIhʲ¹. Key Words: CYCLING, TIME TRIAL, CARBOHYDRATE INGESTION RATE

Beate Pfeiffer 1, Trent Stellingwerff, Eric Zaltas, Asker E Jeukendrup
Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010 Nov;42(11):2038-45. doi: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e3181e0efe6.
CHO oxidation from a CHO gel compared with a drink during exercise
PMID: 20404763 DOI: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e3181e0efe6
Abstract
Recently, it has been shown that ingestion of solutions with glucose (GLU) and fructose (FRC) leads to 20%–50% higher CHO oxidation rates compared with GLU alone. Although most laboratory studies used solutions to deliver CHO, in practice, athletes often ingest CHO in the form of gels (semisolid). It is currently not known if CHO ingested in the form of a gel is oxidized as effectively as a drink.
Purpose: To investigate exogenous CHO oxidation from CHO provided in semisolid (GEL) or solution (DRINK) form during cycling.
Methods: Eight well-trained cyclists(age = 34 ± 7 yr, mass = 76 ± 9 kg, VO2max = 61 ± 7 mL·kg−¹·min−¹) performed three exercise trials in random order. The trials consisted of cycling at 59% ± 4% VO2max for 180 min while receiving one of the following three treatments: GEL plus plain water, DRINK, or plain water. Both CHO treatments delivered GLU plus FRC in a ratio of 2:1 at a rate of 1.8 g·min−¹ (108 g·h−¹). Fluid intake was matched between treatments at 867 mL·h−¹.
Results: Exogenous CHO oxidation from GEL and DRINK showed a similar time course,with peak exogenous CHO oxidation rates being reached at the end of the 180-min exercise. Peak exogenous CHO oxidation rates were not significantly different (P = 0.40) between GEL and DRINK (1.44 ± 0.29 vs 1.42 ± 0.23 g·min−¹, respectively). Furthermore, oxidation efficiency was not significantly different (P = 0.36) between GEL and DRINK (71% ± 15% vs 69% ± 13%, respectively).
Conclusions: This study demonstrates that a GLU + FRC mixture is oxidized to the same degree then administered as either semisolid GEL or liquid DRINK, leading to similarly high peak oxidation rates and oxidation efficiencies.

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2010 Nov;42(11):2030-7. doi: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e3181e0efc9.
Oxidation of solid versus liquid CHO sources during exercise
Beate Pfeiffer 1, Trent Stellingwerff, Eric Zaltas, Asker E Jeukendrup
PMID: 20404762 DOI: 10.1249/MSS.0b013e3181e0efc9
Abstract
The ingestion of CHO solutions has been shown to increase CHO oxidation and improve endurance performance. However, most studies have investigated CHO in solution, and sporting practice includes ingestion of CHO in solid (e.g., energy bars) as well as in liquid form. It remains unknown whether CHO in solid form is as effectively oxidized as CHO in solution.
Purpose: To investigate exogenous CHO oxidation from CHO provided in either solid (BAR) or solution (DRINK) form during cycling.
Methods: Eight well-trained subjects (age = 31 ± 7 yr, mass = 73 ± 5 kg, height = 1.79 ± 0.05 m, VO2max = 69 ± 6 mL·kg−¹·min−¹) cycled at 58% ± 4% VO2max for 180 min while receiving one of the following three treatments in randomized order: BAR plus water, DRINK, or water. The BAR and DRINK was delivered glucose + fructose (GLU + FRC) in a ratio of 2:1 at a rate of 1.55 g·min−¹, and fluid intake was matched between treatments.
Results: During the final 2 h of exercise, overall mean exogenous CHO oxidation rate was −0.11 g·min−¹ lower in BAR (95% confidence interval = −0.27 to 0.05 g·min−¹, P = 0.19) relative to DRINK, whereas exogenous CHO oxidation rates were 15% lower in BAR (P < 0.05) at 120, 135, and 150 min of exercise. Peak exogenous CHO oxidation rates were high in both conditions (BAR 1.25 ± 0.15 g·min−¹ and DRINK 1.34 ± 0.27 g·min−¹) but were not significantly different (P = 0.36) between treatments (mean difference = −0.9 g·min−¹, 95% confidence interval = −0.32 to 0.13 g·min−¹).
Conclusions: The present study demonstrates that a GLU + FRC mix administered as a solid BAR during cycling can lead to high mean and peak exogenous CHO oxidation rates (91 g·min−¹). The GLU + FRC mix ingested in the form of a solid BAR resulted in similar mean and peak exogenous CHO oxidation rates and showed similar oxidation efficiencies as a DRINK. These findings suggest that CHO from a solid BAR is effectively oxidized during exercise and can be a practical form of supplementation alongside other forms of CHO.

RECOVERY
Am J Clin Nutr . 2009 Jan;89(1):161-8. doi: 10.3945/ajcn.2008.26401. Epub 2008 Dec 3.
Ingested protein dose response of muscle and albumin protein synthesis after resistance exercise in young men
Daniel R Moore 1, Meghann J Robinson, Jessica L Fry, Jason E Tang, Elisa I Glover, Sarah B Wilkinson, Todd Prior, Mark A Tarnopolsky, Stuart M Phillips
PMID: 19056590 DOI: 10.3945/ajcn.2008.26401
Abstract
Background: The anabolic effect of resistance exercise is enhanced by the provision of dietary protein.
Objectives: We aimed to determine the ingested protein dose response of muscle (MPS) and albumin protein synthesis (APS) after resistance exercise. In addition, we measured the phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins thought to regulate acute changes in MPS.
Design: Six healthy young men reported to the laboratory on 5 separate occasions to perform an intense bout of leg-based resistance exercise. After exercise, participants consumed, in a randomized order, drinks containing 0, 5, 10, 20, or 40 g whole egg protein. Protein synthesis and whole-body leucine oxidation were measured over 4 h after exercise by a primed constant infusion of [1-(13)C]leucine.
Results: MPS displayed a dose response to dietary protein ingestion and was maximally stimulated at 20 g. The phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (Thr(389)), ribosomal protein S6 (Ser(240/244)), and the epsilon-subunit of eukaryotic initiation factor 2B (Ser(539)) were unaffected by protein ingestion. APS increased in a dose-dependent manner and also reached a plateau at 20 g ingested protein. Leucine oxidation was significantly increased after 20 and 40 g protein were ingested.
Conclusions: Ingestion of 20 g intact protein is sufficient to maximally stimulate MPS and APS after resistance exercise. Phosphorylation of candidate signaling proteins was not enhanced with any dose of protein ingested, which suggested that the stimulation of MPS after resistance exercise may be related to amino acid availability. Finally, dietary protein consumed after exercise in excess of the rate at which it can be incorporated into tissue protein stimulates irreversible oxidation.

J Physiol. 2013 May 1;591(9):2319-31. doi: 10.1113/jphysiol.2012.244897. Epub 2013 Mar 4.
Timing and distribution of protein ingestion during prolonged recovery from resistance exercise alters myofibrillar protein synthesis
José L Areta 1, Louise M Burke, Megan L Ross, Donny M Camera, Daniel W D West, Elizabeth M Broad, Nikki A Jeacocke, Daniel R Moore, Trent Stellingwerff, Stuart M Phillips, John A Hawley, Vernon G Coffey
PMID: 23459753 PMCID: PMC3650697 DOI: 10.1113/jphysiol.2012.244897
Abstract
Quantity and timing of protein ingestion are major factors regulating myofibrillar protein synthesis (MPS). However, the effect of specific ingestion patterns on MPS throughout a 12 h period is unknown. We determined how different distributions of protein feeding during 12 h recovery after resistance exercise affects anabolic responses in skeletal muscle. Twenty-four healthy trained males were assigned to three groups (n = 8/group) and undertook a bout of resistance exercise followed by ingestion of 80 g of whey protein throughout 12 h recovery in one of the following protocols: 8 × 10 g every 1.5 h (PULSE); 4 × 20 g every 3 h (intermediate: INT); or 2 × 40 g every 6 h (BOLUS). Muscle biopsies were obtained at rest and after 1, 4, 6, 7 and 12 h post exercise. Resting and post-exercise MPS (l-[ring-(13)C6] phenylalanine), and muscle mRNA abundance and cell signalling were assessed. All ingestion protocols increased MPS above rest throughout 1-12 h recovery (88-148%, P < 0.02), but INT elicited greater MPS than PULSE and BOLUS (31-48%, P < 0.02). In general signalling showed a BOLUS>INT>PULSE hierarchy in magnitude of phosphorylation. MuRF-1 and SLC38A2 mRNA were differentially expressed with BOLUS. In conclusion, 20 g of whey protein consumed every 3 h was superior to either PULSE or BOLUS feeding patterns for stimulating MPS throughout the day. This study provides novel information on the effect of modulating the distribution of protein intake on anabolic responses in skeletal muscle and has the potential to maximize outcomes of resistance training for attaining peak muscle mass.


https://blog.wiggle.co.uk/powerbar-blog-carb-intake-during-endurance-exercise



Hope this helps some find out why sports drinks work and why they are important.
Michelle






Michelle Grainger
michelle...@gmail.com
www.athleticexcellence.net

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[Greg Merritt]

I kind of end up just putting water in my bottles, because it's hard to get the 🥐🍌🍇🌯🍰🍩🥜🍫🥮🍟🧀🥖 nutrition to fit in the bottles.

😊

-Greg, who, for the record, has also gone many a consecutive km on perpetuem... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[Raphael]

+1 for me. Just water on my bottles.

 

I stopped using sport drinks 18 months ago. No measurable difference in PR on Strava, but huge impact on the logistics – nothing extra to carry except salt pills when it is really hot. And, even these, I just eat more salted food when it’s hot.

 

Thanks, Raphaël

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[Mark Thomas]

Certainly a viable strategy. I do a lot of 1200s with only water or water+electrolytes in bottle, subsisting on crap from convenience stores and real meals at diners, pizzerias, fast food places, and the like. I’ll carry some “bike food” (blocks or gel) or jelly beans for emergency on-route calories. Different strokes for different folks. 

Based on last weekend, Circle K sushi is hit or miss. Just in case you wondered.

Mark

On Mar 9, 2023, at 9:56 AM, Greg Merritt <greg.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

I kind of end up just putting water in my bottles, because it's hard to get the 🥐🍌🍇🌯🍰🍩🥜🍫🥮🍟🧀🥖 nutrition to fit in the bottles.

😊

-Greg, who, for the record, has also gone many a consecutive km on perpetuem... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

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[Jake Kassen]

> I kind of end up just putting water in my bottles, because it's hard

> to get the ???????????? nutrition

> to fit in the bottles.
>
>

Ha, I only put water in my bottles because it's hard to get the taste of anything else *out* of the bottles!

Jake

PS. I've pretty much stopped consuming calories while on the bike and now just get a real sandwich or other snack at controls. Nothing beats a frappe or pizza slice mid-ride.

[Jeff Loomis]

Yep, I think optimizing intake for max caloric absorption and energy output is really important for those operating near human athletic limits.  Being a slow poke, I am nowhere near those limits and do things like ride bonked for hours and load up with junk foods at controls.  Not wise I am sure but it has gotten me through the rides so far to this point in my unremarkable rando "career" LOL.   I have not done any super sixes like DanD and only rarely finished in the top 50% of any pack, trending towards DFL more recently.  Maybe one day I will become a "real athlete" and start habitually consuming liquid fuels.  I never seem to be able to force myself to drink more than a bottle or so of any of them.  In any case, kudos to Andrew and Geluminati for throwing RUSA riders a little discount to try the latest thing.

Jeff

[Mike Hrast]

Well now I know why I’m so slow. I drink coconut water and eat chips

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 9, 2023, at 12:10 PM, Jeff Loomis <je...@loomisclan.com> wrote:



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[ed bernasky]

Thanks for sharing that Michelle.  I am going to give the new Nestle PowerBars a try.  I rarely ride hard on Brevets and therefore nutrition isn't as critical generally but when I do push it, Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin with Fructose is my go to mix and keeping glycogen levels up makes the riding easier.  Sometimes when it is cold and raining, I do not feel like drinking and have been looking for some on bike bars to replace what I currently use.   From your linked study, INT dose of Whey is interesting.  During brevet season, I typically just had one whey drink with HMB after a hard ride.  I might try the every three hour approach to recovery.  

[Gary DelNero]

That talk about bars made me look in the pantry.. We have a product, RXBAR, with a similar amount of calories plus protein, made with real food without added sugar. https://shop.rxbar.com/shop/protein-bars/rxbar.html. One of the kids must have left them here.

It's funny that scientific articles don't tend to compare processed foods to more natural food, nuts and berries.

FWIW, I'll use bars if I feel hungry and haven't wanted cs food, but powders for sustained fuel. I do like a good second breakfast, pancakes and syrup, or a bakery cinnamon roll, and an evening meal, maybe at McD's if we're lucky. I avoid a heavy meal with more than 40-50 miles before bedtime. Sitting around eating with fellow randos is a highlight of the sport.

I re-entered the sport of distance cycling after a 30-year absence and thought that powders were one of the most significant enhancements in that time. No more dependance on cs food for every calorie. No more sugar highs and lows. More alertness late at night. We didn't have all of these products in the early '80's.

Now, there are products, bars and powders, to suit every body type, riding style, and even every attitude towards natural versus highly processed product.

The message should be:
Find something that works for you and avoid those that don't.
Don't be afraid to try new things. (preferably on a perm, not in the middle of a 600k)
Be sure to continue eating throughout the ride. (Powders and bars make that simpler, as you don't need to search for food.)
Support our advertisers.

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[Greg Merritt]

Le sam. 11 mars 2023 à 07:37, Gary DelNero <gary.d...@sbcglobal.net> a écrit :

Sitting around eating with fellow randos is a highlight of the sport.

For my approach, I’d rather enjoy the company from the saddle while making progress along the route, rather than (from my perspective) throwing away sleep hours by “sitting around” at an eatery mid-event. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

-Greg

[ken jessett]

I agree with Greg, it is so easy to lose a great deal of time at controls, eating 'on the go' is my preference. Plus it is so much harder to get up after sitting down to eat. ;-)

[Michelle Grainger]

Very well stated, Gary!

Michelle

Michelle Grainger
michelle...@gmail.com
www.athleticexcellence.net

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[Dave Thompson]

One of my staples on long rides is bars that I make myself: 1 cup each of sunflower seeds, pumpkin seeds, poppy seeds, sesame seeds, chia seeds, shaved almonds + 1kg of dates.  They are very sustaining although, as a fellow rider pointed out recently, no protein.  In addition, I carry some clif gels.

Dave.

 

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[Georgi Stoychev]

It seems some of this is personal preference..what works for one doesn't work for others. I know that going slow vs fast requires a different approach as far as hydration and nutrition. You will puke by throwing solid food at an engine that is expanding a lot of calories and trying to make up for it. 

There are many good products out there from reputable companies with decades of experience and research put into it. Try them all. Personally , I try to avoid added sugars. Studies reportedly find Americans consume 150 Lbs per year on average and athletes who consume added sugars, can easily double the consumption. We all know what sugar leads to as far as health.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24493081/ - Added sugar intake and cardiovascular diseases

https://ochevdds.wordpress.com/2011/03/11/why-gatorade-erodes-teeth-faster-than-red-bull-and-coke/ - Why Gatorade Erodes Teeth Faster Than Red Bull And Coke

If one can find a solution with no refined simple sugars but only healthy complex carbs , that is a winner.  Fructose, sucrose, glucose, and other simple sugars are poor carb sources. 

Protein is important -  When exercise extends beyond about two hours, your body begins to utilize some protein to fulfill its energy requirements, as you begin to derive glucose from amino acids. This metabolic process helps to satisfy anywhere from 5-15% of your energy needs. If you fail to include protein in your fuel, your body has only one other choice: your own muscle! Called lean muscle tissue catabolism or muscle cannibalization, this process devastates performance through muscle deterioration and increased fatigue-causing ammonia accumulation.  

- William Misner, Ph.D. - Director of Research & Product Development, Emeritus

Solid food - Occasional solid food intake is nice. Liquid nutrition is the easiest, most convenient, and most easily digested way to get a calorie and nutrient-dense fuel. Solid food, for the most part, cannot match the precision or nutrient density of the best liquid fuels. In addition, too much solid food consumption will divert blood from working muscles for the digestive process. This, along with the amount of digestive enzymes, fluids, and time required in breaking down the constituents of solid food, can cause bloating, nausea, and/or lethargy.

7:1 Carb to Protein ratio is something  applied since the 90s but research is always bringing changes 

Overhydrating is also a thing. Ive had bad adema problems due to high intake of water and water only . . . You should measure sweat rate during different temperatures and conditions and consume accordingly. Small sips are a key, same with digesting food: slowly and chewing , a simple but effective way to prevent issues.

Eating too much carbs can be a problem too  - Your system can only absorb so much. 120 to 180g per hour is fine. Depending on the intensity , this can slightly increase. Excess calorie replacement leads to GI distress , cramps. . . etc. Liver supposedly can only convert 240 calories per hour to glycogen from carbs. Most athletes cannot even tolerate this much. . . 

Most calories I have burned in 24h is ~ 12000. There is no way to eat 12000 calories in a day and perform well + feel good. Don't think that you have to match them one for one.

I know, I went on a long one here and a bit sideways but I hope some of this will be useful to others after beating my head into the wall over the last two plus decades going long distances from slow , easy miles to some pretty crazy and tough races.

Georgi Stoychev 

RUSA# 6872

https://s-ultracycling.com/

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[ken jessett]

For my last few rides I have been drinking only Geluminati and good grief it is sooo sweet!

Getting nutrition and the right amount of hydrated electrolytes and calories and protein is a minefield of misinformation.

I think the future only offers a staggering ride to the finish.

Ken. J

RUSA # 3759

[Ramsey Hanna]

I just consume maple syrup. I have little bottles that are close to 80g and when I’m doing a long Z2 ride, I have one every hour. When I get into the 7+ hr range, I will supplement with drink mix (i like tailwind for lower intensity) in my bottles to get to 100g carb/hr. If the intensity is high (Tempo or > for 4+ hrs), I try to get to 120 g/hr and will basically saturate my bottles with Geluminati and use gels. Water is consumed based on the temps.

Sorry Georgi, sugar is king 😂 can get through and perform well on a 200+ mile ride without consuming even a gram of protein.

I’ll consume regular food on multi-day rides or stuff that’s casual but in all other situations i just pack out everything, saves me quite a bit of money and time,

Ramsey

[Georgi Stoychev]

:) I hear you brother, it's just a matter of how much sugar and can your gut tolerate it. If I just bike with slow speed , I can tolerate anything and the risk of GI distress is low but is it really helping performance and good for my health ? :) We all make our choices and live with them, there is a good reason why there are nutritionists out there and both me and you are not  :) 

 I just think that this is a vital part of good performance and overall health and we should be very careful what goes into our system.

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[Andrew Adere]

Ken,

Sounds like you might be extra sensitive to the fructose - sorry to hear that. I can guarantee it's wildly beneficial to your fueling and carbohydrate processing, though. Perhaps start with half a serving (1 scoop) per bottle and work up. It also depends on what you're used to consuming beforehand - if you're one of these guys who's only ever drank water during a ride jumping to 60g/hr, even with the sweetness dulling effects of cluster dextrin, can be a lot.

The below is a response to Georgi's points from earlier this month... sorry to include it in the response to you, Ken!

I never got a chance to respond to Georgi's points either and unfortunately I don't have to time right now to dig into them like I'd prefer but honestly some of the big ones having to do with carbs/sugars have zero relevance when fueling for sport. I wish I had time to dig into this and link studies right now but I can list a few key points:

Simple sugars are a very important part of fueling. Having some "complex" carbs is nice but that's things like maltodextrin or cluster dextrin, which is broken down cornstarch. Trying to fuel with regular starches would lead to gut distress and poor performance - imagine fueling with oatmeal mid-ride.

Avoiding added sugars in your daily diet is fine but they are literally the most important when fueling on the bike unless you intend to just pound bananas all day, and in my opinion there's really no difference between sugar that happened to occur naturally in a banana and other sugar that happened to occur naturally and was added to a food or drink. The important part is getting the sugars in and in the right ratio - close to 1:1 glucose:fructose (which is what sucrose, table sugar, is). The ideal ratio shown by research is 1:0.8 glucose:fructose and is what Geluminati and all good sports nutrition products use.

I highly disagree on the point about eating too many carbs - consume literally as much as you can stomach. I'm pretty sure Georgi made a typo when he said 120-180g/hr and meant to say 120-180 kcal/hr, based on the 240kcal/hr statement made later in that line. You can only process 60-72g/hr of glucose, yes, which is 240-288kcal, but you can process more if you add fructose in as it's processed via a different pathway. I personally fuel with 100-120g carbs/hr and some pros are taking in up to 140-160g/hr. Research has shown that the more carbs you take on the more you use (though not 100% of the total intake the relative quantity does increase), which leads to better performance on the bike as well as better recovery as it spares muscle damage. This is something people need to work up to and "train the gut" so to speak. Personally I start having a bad time after about 6hrs on anything less than 80g/hr, or about 320kcal.

The points on overhydrating, making sure to take in protein (you do still have a body to maintain with normal daily nutrition requirements), and solid food are all very important and I agree. I don't have an opinion on the 7:1 carb:protein ratio. Personally I fuel with Geluminati and Nature's Bakery figgy bars, plus 7-11 hot dogs and whatever else catches my fancy at controls.

A very relevant study from Tim Podlogar, probably the foremost researcher on sports nutrition and exercise metabolism: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00421-022-05019-w

Skimming this study I believe it makes some good points, though the fueling is based on the outdated 2:1 glucose:fructose ratio: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6566225/

Oooh another good one, from Asker Jeukendrup... I definitely mispoke when I said Tim is the foremost researcher on this stuff, Asker is definitely king here (and nutritionist for Jumbo Visma): https://www.gssiweb.org/sports-science-exchange/article/sse-106-carbohydrate-supplementation-during-exercise-does-it-help-how-much-is-too-much-

A few more links from Asker: https://www.mysportscience.com/post/slow-carbs-during-exercise

https://www.mysportscience.com/post/2015/05/14/carb-mixes-and-benefits

Note some of the My Sport Science stuff is a bit outdated from a few years ago when 90g/hr was thought to be the limit of carb intake. 

Finally here's a nice article from Dane Cash (now writing for Escapecollective.cc since CyclingTips shot themselves in the foot, or rather their owner Outside did so) about Mathieu van der Poel's carb intake during the Tour of Flanders last year https://www.cyclingtips.com/2022/04/100-grams-of-carbs-per-hour-deciphering-mathieu-van-der-poels-nutrition-sticker/

Okay jk I found another great writeup from Geluminati quasi-competitor First Endurance (not using cluster dextrin in 2023 is silly) https://firstendurance.com/blogs/articles/how-many-carbs-per-hour-should-endurance-athletes-consume

I swear I meant for this to be a high level response, lol. Hope it's relatively beneficial.

Key points: Carbs are king, target a 1:0.8 glucose:fructose ratio, cluster dextrin is a fantastic carb source (see link below), simple sugars are crucial to exercise, added sugars aren't the devil (brush your teeth and floss, of course), and you should always consume as many carbs as you can tolerate when on the bike.

A little cluster dextrin info (PDF link): https://www.journalofexerciseandnutrition.com/index.php/JEN/article/download/100/89/104

Finally, I hope no one takes this as an attack on Georgi - he's a great athlete with impressive palmares who I'm looking forward to riding with this Saturday and I'm quite sure everything he said was sponsor correct for his Hammer Nutrition sponsorship!

For those who made it this far, thanks for indulging me with your time while I nerded out.

Andrew Adere
President, Geluminati LLC
RUSA #13914
Absolute Weirdo

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[Andrew Adere]

Oh man you guys were talking while I rambled on and on  😂

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[Andrew Adere]

Georgi,

I just know you're a Hammer athlete from recent instagram posts - you're killing it out there - massive props! I just figured that might be what was on your mind, didn't mean to imply you were trying to sway anyone a certain way. and thank you for your kind words!

On the pro vs. rando nutrition, though, I disagree - we all have the same digestive system with approximately the same capabilities. The pros might have more mitochondria but we've all got similar livers, and the fueling demands for any long event are practically the same - as many carbs as possible, and fill in around them with protein and fats as required to keep good satiety and to maintain your body's daily nutrition needs.

As an aside, while I of course think Geluminati Endurance Drink Mix is the best available on the market everyone's palate is different so what tastes better to one person may be different for another (which is not the same as what your body can process once you get it in). There's plenty of different ways to skin this cat, and as long as you're getting carbs in from multiple types of carbohydrates (basically, glucose & fructose), you're doing it right and liable to have a good time.

As a final point, honestly any drink mix is truly only added sugars. It's literally fancy sugar water. that you add to water to create a drink.  There's no difference whether the sugar is naturally occuring in a fruit or added in the form of crystalline fructose - it's the same chemical. Maltodextrin and cluster dextrin aren't considered sugars by the USDA so in order to follow regulations they aren't listed the same but they're just more complex sugars - longer chains of glucose. 

There's a lot of rabbit holes and pitfalls that athletes can fall into (hopefully no one thinks the keto diet is beneficial for an endurance athlete in 2023, or thinks Tim Noakes is still on his rocker), lots of which are crossovers from the sinister and pervasive Diet Culture that we all cope with, and of course most everything has at least a grain of truth at the center of it and we are constantly learning new things. We are still pushing the bounds of this topic and I constantly look forward to new research.

Thanks for letting me ramble on about this!

Andrew

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 12:05 PM Georgi Stoychev <emi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cheers Andrew,

I like different opinions, it's how we learn in life if we are open to listening. For the record , I never mentioned Hammer Nutrition in any of my responses but rather personal experience , research data and doctors statements. I did not write any of this to sway people's opinion towards Hammer Nutrition, we are all adults and can make that choice. Also out of respect for you and the drink you have that was now featured in RUSA magazine.  Big props for creating this business.

 I have been an ambassador for Gu Energy, Scratch and Hammer. I have tried about a dozen other brands and this was the best way to figure out what worked for me. 

There are many studies out there and some brands sponsor their own research to promote their product, it's how business works. But there are drinks with barely any added sugars and plenty of carbs and calories to keep you moving forward. 

There is no one rule for all, new research is constantly being produced. You made a good point about Mathieu van der Poel. I think it's far from comparing pro nutrition to rando nutrition / hydration. I recently raced 250 miles in 12h, say I do the same time for a 300 km rando event. The demands for fueling are completely different between the two in the same 12h period.

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--

Georgi Stoychev

[Ted Fay]

Intrigued by the whole thread, with two questions. 

1) Thoughts on the WaPo article about sweeteners. https://www.washingtonpost.com/wellness/interactive/2023/sugar-substitutes-health-effects/ Following reading  this I stopped using Nuun tablets, which I liked for the electrolytes w/o sugar when either not needed on a shorter ride or when meals/snacks brought me enough sugar. 

2) if seeking electrolyte only options, views on trusted ones? I picked one up from the local health food store, but tracking the mfg online is impossible, which creates some concern. 

Ted

On Mar 29, 2023, at 10:47 AM, Andrew Adere <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Georgi Stoychev]

Ouch.  Yep , I have suffered plenty with too much sugar. It's a learning curve 

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[Georgi Stoychev]

Hello all, I find this video very useful and hope it helps others when making hydration choices . Added sugar is bad, it dehydrates, only water is bad as it dilutes electrolytes, sugar source is important ,  " Hydration drinks at the gas stations " are generally garbage that make things worse

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhvCuJNu3I&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=Dr.EricBergDC

Georgi Stoychev

RUSA # 6872

s-ultracycling.com

--

Georgi Stoychev

[Georgi Stoychev]

Cheers Andrew,

I like different opinions, it's how we learn in life if we are open to listening. For the record , I never mentioned Hammer Nutrition in any of my responses but rather personal experience , research data and doctors statements. I did not write any of this to sway people's opinion towards Hammer Nutrition, we are all adults and can make that choice. Also out of respect for you and the drink you have that was now featured in RUSA magazine.  Big props for creating this business.

 I have been an ambassador for Gu Energy, Scratch and Hammer. I have tried about a dozen other brands and this was the best way to figure out what worked for me. 

There are many studies out there and some brands sponsor their own research to promote their product, it's how business works. But there are drinks with barely any added sugars and plenty of carbs and calories to keep you moving forward. 

There is no one rule for all, new research is constantly being produced. You made a good point about Mathieu van der Poel. I think it's far from comparing pro nutrition to rando nutrition / hydration. I recently raced 250 miles in 12h, say I do the same time for a 300 km rando event. The demands for fueling are completely different between the two in the same 12h period.

On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 11:47 AM Andrew Adere <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/CAGinT6VtCpmO%3DH%3DiRNLkz0qA0AOXHOMkXJC2FbOSJ35%3Dh5HWeQ%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Georgi Stoychev

[Andrew Adere]

Interestingly this just came through my email client. Interesting video, though I completely disagree with what he implies about carbs.

>Dr. Berg, age 57, is a chiropractor who specializes in Healthy Ketosis & Intermittent Fasting

I honestly wouldn't trust anything this guy says about nutrition for exercise based on his background. He says "apparently the idea is that if you're exercising you need some sugar to replace to loss of glucose... and they call this hydration. But is it really hydrating you? Does consuming glucose hydrate you?"

Yeah this guy's strawmanning. Or he just doesn't understand how the body works in this manner.

No one in their right mind would ever claim the carbs are hydrating. They're there for energy (a type of which this guy's career is built on agitating against with his Keto background) - the water and electrolytes are what enable hydration. Yes carbs "dehydrate you" by requiring water to process. That's how we get to the important factor of osmolarity. It's also why smashing some plain water at a control is a good idea if you're feeling a little dry.

Hydration versus dehydration is going to be based on osmolarity. High carbohydrate drinks are going to be hypertonic and thus dehydrating - they have more particles than your blood and take more water than you're taking in with the drink to process the associated carbohydrates. Hypotonic drinks (like guess what?) are going to have fewer particles than your blood and thus allow some of the water you're taking on to go towards hydration as well. Some research points to isotonic drinks being best for energy processing but I've thrown my eggs into the hypotonic basket for now based on my research and understanding of the exercising human body.

Speaking generally on hydration, though, this guy is correct in that it's not just about pounding back tons of water and you need to be wary of hyponatremia. A great resource for learning about the current state of hydration, among other things, is Alex Hutchinson's book Endure. Highly recommend for all endurance athletes. If I recall correctly, we currently don't know the best way to hydrate, but I think the latest recommendation is basically to drink more or less to thirst, maybe with some extra if it's hot and such (drink before you're thirsty and eat before you're hungry is always good advice - but of course don't go overboard). It is surprisingly the kind of thing that's been heavily and widely studied and we as a people still aren't sure.

Oh man, the way he says "11 grams of sugar per serving size" is hilarious. As though that's an unreasonable amount of carbohydrate - if you only consumed 11g/hr (which isn't exactly what he's talking about but still) you'd bonk after ~2.5hrs guaranteed - your glycogen stores will last ~2hrs and you've barely replenished them.

I don't think anything this guy says has any reasonable bearing on fueling for any endurance exercise, especially the kind of riding we do where consuming more carbs is even more important as you're fighting a war of attrition trying to keep your glucose stores above empty in a situation where you cannot replace those stores as quickly as you're depleting them. He is correct that you need electrolytes, which hopefully we all know - sodium is most important or at least the one we need most of, with potassium a close second, as the sodium-potassium pump is part of the process of creating ATP which is what our cells use for energy. I would be lying if I said I had a good working knowledge of things at this level of biochemistry, though.

Most sports drinks at gas stations are hot garbage, though I will say I find Body Armor to be absolutely primo stuff. Love to smash one of those at a service stop.

Basically, added sugar isn't the devil. It's just the latest in diet culture's fads (remember how fat was evil in the 90s?). We as endurance athletes need carbohydrates, and sugar is a great carb source, and good luck meeting your hourly carbohydrate needs without added sugars and without gut distress. The main thing is not overeating these which is something to worry about off the bike (hopefully after you consume plenty of them to replenish your glycogen stores).

I feel like I'm missing something with talking about how blood sugar spikes aren't even a concern during exercise since our body uses non-insulin glucose uptake, but I'm also not super well versed in that and this is already long enough and it's past my bedtime.

Sorry for another rambly slightly confrontational entry in this saga, y'all. There's a lot of misinformation out there and people approaching this issue from a lot of different perspectives which don't always apply to what we do as ultra distance cyclists - or just cyclists in general. Makes me think of something Namrita Brooke, a registered dietician and cycling coach, said (paraphrasing) - everyone thinks they're an expert on nutrition because everyone eats all the time.

But that's simply not true. Our bodies are complicated organisms and we've still got far from everything figured out. But the sucrose in natural sources is the same as the sucrose (table sugar) in your pantry. and neither is evil, especially while pedaling a bike.

Andrew

Postscript: This also makes me think of how dietary sodium recommendations have been completely wrong for decades. Check this article out from LMNT, an electrolyte company I very much respect since they also give guidance on how to make your own electrolyte mix at home to match the product they sell. https://science.drinklmnt.com/electrolytes/the-fdas-misguidance-on-sodium/

Homemade electrolyte mix info is the first FAQ here: https://drinklmnt.com/pages/faq

If you've been on a low sodium diet like I was for a few years try adding significant amounts of salt back in - I did (as added salt on top of my normal diet, not by choosing saltier foods - interesting how that's not demonized) and instantly felt worlds better.

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[Andrew Adere]

Ted,

I'm not super knowledgeable about artificial sweeteners. I definitely distrust products that use them in lieu of sugar but to the same levels, but I don't know enough to speak to whether the small quantity products like Nuun use is really detrimental.

For prepackaged electrolytes I think LMNT does it right. Very high sodium so depending on how salty your sweat is and your sweat rate maybe  split one packet between two bottles. They've also got their recipe in the FAQ section (https://drinklmnt.com/pages/faq), first dropdown under Homebrew. I remember listening to a podcast with the founder recently and he was the right way about things and really seemed to approach the topic of electrolytes from a solid foundation.

If you want to mix your own electrolyte powder, check out Micro Ingredients on Amazon. I believe their stuff is of pretty good quality.

Personally I get enough electrolytes from my drink mix and other ride food, and if I really need it I'll snag a saltier snack at a service stop.

Andrew

[Andrew Adere]

I don't think carbs have anything to do with hydration - they're all about energy. Reasonable amounts of sugar while on the bike == as much as you can tolerate.

The links you provided are certainly valid while sedentary but completely irrelevant while exercising as the body processes carbohydrate differently during activity.

Finally, all carbs are really sugars. Longer chain carbs - oligosaccharides and polysaccharides - are still saccharides, AKA sugars. Someone decided to not call them sugars when they have long enough chains but it's all the same building blocks.

The only "too much" sugar when on the bike is what gives you gut distress, and that's both a factor of type of sugar and gut training.

Simple sugars are important for quick energy on the bike - we don't have the time or gut tolerance to break down super complex carbs. This is different at rest but trying to "eat healthy" on the bike is silly - we have more important needs and we're not harming our bodies by addressing those needs.

Again there is zero difference between naturally occurring sugars and those we separate out (from natural sources, by the way - we're not creating them from dark magic).

I don't mean to belabor this issue but I think misinformation on this point is both silly and potentially dangerous for people who are out pushing their physical limits - bonking because you were worried some diet culture guru said sugar is bad can leave you stranded far from services without the fuel you need to get to the next control.

Andrew

On 3/31/2023 9:09 AM, Georgi Stoychev wrote:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-drinks/sugary-drinks/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2548255

https://www.moonfamilyhealth.com/fileupload/146_Reasons_Why_Sugar_Is_Ruining_Your_Health.pdf

Sure, I know simple sugars are in every drink and they play a vital role together with electrolytes. Electrolytes + healthy natural sweeteners can do the trick as far as hydration. There are naturally occuring sugars and that's fine. All I am saying is that too much is no bueno. Especially in Hydration drinks.  This can be accomplished with a reasonable amount of sugar. 

Your carbs for energy don't have to come from simple sugars in excessive amounts. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/2d3d787d-1059-3f07-4ce1-bfdeb1c16638%40gmail.com.

--

Georgi Stoychev

[Gary DelNero]

A significant learning experience I recall was from the early '80's, reading how Michael Shermer, setting a North -South transcontinental record, found himself flat on his back on a park bench, valiantly fighting off the effects of a sleeve of powdered sugar donuts. Those evil sugar donuts! I suspected that the real culprit was sleep deprivation and was disappointed in that conclusion.

 Thanks for all of this information and the links to research articles.

Sent from AT&T Yahoo Mail on Android

On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 8:19 AM, Andrew Adere

<andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/2823f90e-c261-706e-b78e-acb928ce4d15%40gmail.com.

[ed bernasky]

What you wrote pretty much rings true to me.

The power output and intake needs of a Strasser or Baloh are very different to rather pedestrian riders like you and me (in comparison...to them) and forget about Van der Poel who is in another galaxy.  Rando speeds are very, very different as are the fueling needs.  As you know, Strasser set the 24 hour world record with 1026.2 km, he reportedly consumed 100 g/hour, 275 watts over 24 hours, HR of 136, cadence of 78,  18.5L of liquid.  He ran a deficit of 14,000 calories over the 24 hours, despite consuming as much as he could based on training his stomach.   If the very best ultra endurance cyclist in th wworld can only do 100 grams (400 calories) per hour, one should take notice.  A top ultra endurance athlete told me he can only push 80g per hour and that is with gut training.

I would consider 100-120g per hour for most Randos to be dangerous, unless they like puking and looking for a porta potty constantly.

15 mph takes 85-100 watts depending on a variety of factors, something like 300-360 cals/hour.  It is extraordinarily rare for me to average more than 500 calories per hour on a 400k or longer and that would be to haul my 200 pounds in say 14 hours at 170-180 watts average.  Since this would be around 50% of VO2 max at which 60-70% of my energy needs come from fat, I very, very rarely need more than 200 kcal/hour from external sources of fuel, similar to what you wrote as your intakes although you are younger and faster.  

Highly branched Cyclic dextrin is the real deal and the product in this thread is probably great.   I have been buying highly branched Cyclic dextrin in bulk and using it for about 8 years.  I cannot tolerate too much fructose, maybe I got a lousy liver at birth.  If I ride really, really hard, 250-300 cals is my limit.  Maybe I got a lousy stomach.  In reality, I just don't make a lot of power.

At one time, I had a goal of doing a full series with each brevet under 50% of the allowed time and consequently, did a lot of work on nutrition and pacing and maybe reading everything on the topic.  My advice to newbies?  Sometimes a little slower, consistency (get in and out of controls), and eating a little less can be faster and more comfortable but as in everything, we all vary.  Sometimes I crave weird stuff on a long ride and just buy it and throw it into the blast furnace.   Mostly everyone posting here has decades of experience, but anyone new to randonneuring?  Take it easy.  Eat/drink a LITTLE bit of carbs periodically and don't overdo it.  Just one person's opinion

[Andrew Adere]

Thanks Howard! Looking forward to hearing how it works for you!

Andrew 

On Sat, Apr 1, 2023, 1:52 AM Howard Z <hza...@gmail.com> wrote:

Enjoying reading this thread and relating to my own experiences.

My approach is to accept that I must consume things to get through these long events that I would never do while at rest. Even still, I have a (bad) habit of not consuming enough carbs/sugars on long brevets. During last weekend's 400k, I was on the verge of bonking multiple times- it was so cold I just didn't want to stop, take the gloves off to eat even a gel. I managed to finish, but it wasn't pretty...

I've used Tailwind for the past year or so, and it's ok, but time to see what else is out there. I just bought two bags of Geluminati and will try it out.

Howard Zabell

RUSA #14760

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/2823f90e-c261-706e-b78e-acb928ce4d15%40gmail.com.

[ken jessett]

"I would consider 100-120g per hour for most Randos to be dangerous, unless they like puking..."

That's what I did yesterday on a 100 mile ride. I downed a full and a half serving of G every hour (and no other food) and was violently sick - the first time I have vomited in years.

I don't blame the G, it was my fault trying to beat the heat, humidity and wind in SE Texas.

Everything in moderation from now on. ;-)

Ken J.

[ken jessett]

I meant to add - not much to do with drink - that I met the pastor of a Lutheran church on my ride yesterday who had just relocated from North Dakota where he said it was minus 2 degrees, in contrast to day's temperature in Houston is forecast to be 90 degrees. It is very difficult to train for anything and maintain an adequate fluid intake to combat these kind of temperatures. This is one of the reasons I have postponed the Bessies Creek 24 races until the end of October.

Ken J.

[Andrew Adere]

Ken,

I am sorry to hear that was your experience. I would advise extra water intake in those circumstances. Additionally, if you're not used to that carb intake I would not recommend jumping up to even 90g/hr without some sort of a ramp-up. Training the gut to handle the increased carbohydrate load is necessary even in temperate conditions, and even more so with the additional stress of 90F weather.

I hope you're feeling better today.

Thanks,

Andrew

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/ef0e2bc2-4b92-4d62-9675-9fb666ea11e6n%40googlegroups.com.

[ken jessett]

Yes, thanks Andrew, no problems today. But I will say that if anyone is thinking that riding in near 90 degrees for a hundred miles and only taking in liquid food then throwing it all up onto the road and not eating for the rest of the day is a good diet plan, I'd suggest thinking again. I weighed just as much this morning as i did yesterday morning before the ride.

[Howard Z]

Enjoying reading this thread and relating to my own experiences.

My approach is to accept that I must consume things to get through these long events that I would never do while at rest. Even still, I have a (bad) habit of not consuming enough carbs/sugars on long brevets. During last weekend's 400k, I was on the verge of bonking multiple times- it was so cold I just didn't want to stop, take the gloves off to eat even a gel. I managed to finish, but it wasn't pretty...

I've used Tailwind for the past year or so, and it's ok, but time to see what else is out there. I just bought two bags of Geluminati and will try it out.

Howard Zabell

RUSA #14760

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/2823f90e-c261-706e-b78e-acb928ce4d15%40gmail.com.

[Georgi Stoychev]

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-drinks/sugary-drinks/

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2548255

https://www.moonfamilyhealth.com/fileupload/146_Reasons_Why_Sugar_Is_Ruining_Your_Health.pdf

Sure, I know simple sugars are in every drink and they play a vital role together with electrolytes. Electrolytes + healthy natural sweeteners can do the trick as far as hydration. There are naturally occuring sugars and that's fine. All I am saying is that too much is no bueno. Especially in Hydration drinks.  This can be accomplished with a reasonable amount of sugar. 

Your carbs for energy don't have to come from simple sugars in excessive amounts. 

On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 12:22 AM Andrew Adere <andrew...@gmail.com> wrote:

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--

Georgi Stoychev

[Georgi Stoychev]

I feel like the conversation is getting sidetracked. I don’t think I can bring more value to this conversation, so this is my last post :)

I wanted to simply bring awareness of extra sugar and the consequences to our health. There are hydration drinks which range from 2 grams to 50 grams of sugar or even more. They are both designed to hydrate. Is extra sugar to help hydrate or is now fuel, that would make it a fuel drink and not a hydration i wonder. 

Put aside the source of sugar, natural or not, if I was wrong on that, the health consequences and GI distress are real. Too much sugar without knowing your limits and absorption rate is a recipe for disaster. Again, I am questioning the amount of sugar. I do eat fruit and nut bars, figs, dates, rice cakes, bananas  … etc for fuel that includes sugar. I eat them for fuel rather than to hydrate :)

I also think it is a low blow to be going after Hammer since I did not even mention it in the first place. I was also an ambassador for Skratch and did not mention them either. If anything, you ended up promoting them.

This is my opinion but I am open to be convinced otherwise without getting mad :) 

On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 11:56 AM Georgi Stoychev <emi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cheers Ramsey. I never promoted Hammer here at all. It was mentioned by Andrew. I was not even saying that his product is bad, in fact I gave him kudos. I was just sharing my experience in my first email response. Of course businesses do what they do to make money. That doesn't meant that their products are bad. As mentioned, I never claimed to be a nutritionist, I was just pulling research already completed by top Universities. The video was not without its flaws , I agree. 

In my first reply I actually talked about Protein, solid food, carb to protein ratio, overhydrating, eating too much, different fueling needed at different intensity.  . . not one word was mentioned about the new drink in town or Hammer nutrition. I did not wanted to advertise for a company I am associated with here. And hey, we are not perfect or correct 100 % of the time, I am well aware. I was genuinely trying to share my opinion from experience in hope to help others or at least bring some awareness and start a discussion. At the end of the day, discussions like this are necessary and important and I am happy we can all participate in a respectful way. I don't take things personally and don't say anything to attack anybody personally, I do it out of the love for this sport.

On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 11:37 AM Ramsey Hanna <rambora...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think Andrew makes some great points about how what you should consume on the bike to maximize performance is dramatically different than what you should be eating to have a healthy diet in general (i.e. off the bike nutrition, nobody should be slamming gels when they sit down for dinner, regardless of whether or not they are "complex" or not).  Additionally what you would consume on a slow brevet (i honestly don't even consume sports nutrition products at this pace) is different from what you would consume if you are smashing tempo or  > for hours.  Of course, everyone's physiology is different, but if your goal is to maximize performance  what Andrew said is true: consume as many carbohydrates as you can stomach, this is literally what every racer is doing and if your goal is to finish brevets as quickly as possible, that's exactly what you should do as well (if that's not your goal, do whatever works for you).

I am going to address some of the misconceptions I am seeing in this thread:

Simple vs Complex carbohydrates: There is obviously some confusion about how these terms are used. 

Nutritionists make this distinction: "Simple" means the sugar is non-polymeric.  "Complex" means the sugar is a polymer. From a chemistry and health perspective, this distinction is reductive, it has no bearing on how these food items are digested. Sometimes complex carbohydrates are rapidly digested/absorbed, sometimes they are not.  The linkages between the sugar molecules are what determines whether or not something is rapidly absorbed (or even edible, cellulose is a sugar, but leaves off a tree don't provide calories) It's just an easy way to describe the types of chemicals found in the generic food groups so information can more easily relayed to the general public (i.e. complex carbs are found in starchy foods, simple carbs are found in sweet foods).

Scientists do not make this distinction:  If a chemical contains a specific chemical moeity, it is a type of sugar. full stop. There is more nuance when you describe their different structures but if you don't have the knowledge to understand their meaning, it's meaningless to present it in that way to non-scientists.

Natural/organic vs Artificial/added sugars:

There is no functional difference between chemicals that occur naturally and those that are manufactured.  The fructose/sucrose/glucose in a banana is exactly the same as what is in your drink mix. Your body cannot tell the difference AT ALL.

This isn't something that should really be controversial, but the amount of misinformation surrounding this idea of artificial/natural is absolutely astounding. The real reason a banana/potato is healthier for you than just straight candy is because of the additional fiber and the (literally) thousands of other chemicals naturally occuring in those items, not whether or not the carbohydrate you are consuming is artificial or not.

 

I looked into the way Hammer nutrition advertises their products (sorry Georgi), and frankly, it's pretty dishonest and is capitalizing on alot of recent diet trends and misinformation.  Here is the description from the website for their endurance gel:  

Unlike other similar-looking products on the market, Hammer Gel’s complex carbohydrates, all-natural ingredients, and pH-balancing formula are easily digestible, and provide quick-acting yet long-lasting energy in a convenient, tasty, concentrated form. 

The main ingredient in Hammer gel's products which provides energy is Maltodextrin.  Maltodextrin is an intensely processed (it is as ARTIFICAL as it gets, but they are claiming their product is ALL NATURAL) polysaccharide derived from the hydrolysis of starchy products.  The origin of Maltodextrin is corn/potatoes/wheat, but it's the same chemical regardless of its origin. Hammer has decided to use the marketing term "complex" to convince you that this Maltodextrin is somehow healthier for you than "simple sugars" such as fructose/glucose/sucrose, but this is just isn't true.  Consuming maltodextrin while at rest will (more or less) have the same impact as consuming table sugar, in fact the glycemic index for Maltodextrin is even higher.  All research on this chemical shows addition into a diet (for normal, non ultra endurance athletes) has the same impact as sugar (diabetes, weight gain, cardiovascular disease, etc.)). I just want to make it clear, there is nothing wrong with consuming maltodextrin, especially for endurance exercise, but claiming it is better for you than other carbohydrates is a lie.

More from Hammer nutrition (taken from their ingredient list on their website):
Potassium Chloride – Source of potassium and sodium.

-THERE IS NO SODIUM IN POTASSIUM CHLORIDE. This is probably a typo but damn, edit your website, Andrew is a single person and does a better job describing his product.

Energy Smart® (Grape Juice, Rice Dextrin) – This all-natural, low-sugar sweetener plays an important role in Hammer Gel’s delicious flavor while contributing minimally to the overall carbohydrate content. Energy Smart® is certified non-GMO, gluten-free, and allergen-free.

-Again, it is dishonest to call this chemical "all natural" just like maltodextrin, rice dextrin is produced by hydrolysis of starch and is intensely processed.  Also, there is nothing wrong with GMOs, Hammer is again capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to use their products (could go on about this subject literally forever, but I won't say more than that).

There's more to unpack with Hammer (sorry again Georgi) but it's not the only company that makes false claims about their sports nutrition products, it just so happens to be the most relevant to this discussion.

Given this information, I personally prefer Andrew's product over others because he is 100% honest about what he is selling you and it is very obvious that he has done his research.  He is not trying to convince you that his product is "organic" or doesn't contain "added sugars" (it damn well better have added sugar).  He is not capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to buy his product.  These reasons alone are enough of a reason to choose his product over others.  I am not going to even touch whatever specific formula Andrew is choosing to use in his product as it's outside my understanding and I haven't done enough research to contribute to that discussion; but damn, it works exactly as advertised.

Respect to all in this discussion. A big part of my job and what I have done for the past (10 years! wow, I am old af) is to present scientific information to a general audience AND a specialized audience so if any of the above information is unclear, please ask for clarification.  

Ramsey

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/2823f90e-c261-706e-b78e-acb928ce4d15%40gmail.com.

--

Georgi Stoychev

--

Georgi Stoychev

[Georgi Stoychev]

Cheers Ramsey. I never promoted Hammer here at all. It was mentioned by Andrew. I was not even saying that his product is bad, in fact I gave him kudos. I was just sharing my experience in my first email response. Of course businesses do what they do to make money. That doesn't meant that their products are bad. As mentioned, I never claimed to be a nutritionist, I was just pulling research already completed by top Universities. The video was not without its flaws , I agree. 

In my first reply I actually talked about Protein, solid food, carb to protein ratio, overhydrating, eating too much, different fueling needed at different intensity.  . . not one word was mentioned about the new drink in town or Hammer nutrition. I did not wanted to advertise for a company I am associated with here. And hey, we are not perfect or correct 100 % of the time, I am well aware. I was genuinely trying to share my opinion from experience in hope to help others or at least bring some awareness and start a discussion. At the end of the day, discussions like this are necessary and important and I am happy we can all participate in a respectful way. I don't take things personally and don't say anything to attack anybody personally, I do it out of the love for this sport.

On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 11:37 AM Ramsey Hanna <rambora...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think Andrew makes some great points about how what you should consume on the bike to maximize performance is dramatically different than what you should be eating to have a healthy diet in general (i.e. off the bike nutrition, nobody should be slamming gels when they sit down for dinner, regardless of whether or not they are "complex" or not).  Additionally what you would consume on a slow brevet (i honestly don't even consume sports nutrition products at this pace) is different from what you would consume if you are smashing tempo or  > for hours.  Of course, everyone's physiology is different, but if your goal is to maximize performance  what Andrew said is true: consume as many carbohydrates as you can stomach, this is literally what every racer is doing and if your goal is to finish brevets as quickly as possible, that's exactly what you should do as well (if that's not your goal, do whatever works for you).

I am going to address some of the misconceptions I am seeing in this thread:

Simple vs Complex carbohydrates: There is obviously some confusion about how these terms are used. 

Nutritionists make this distinction: "Simple" means the sugar is non-polymeric.  "Complex" means the sugar is a polymer. From a chemistry and health perspective, this distinction is reductive, it has no bearing on how these food items are digested. Sometimes complex carbohydrates are rapidly digested/absorbed, sometimes they are not.  The linkages between the sugar molecules are what determines whether or not something is rapidly absorbed (or even edible, cellulose is a sugar, but leaves off a tree don't provide calories) It's just an easy way to describe the types of chemicals found in the generic food groups so information can more easily relayed to the general public (i.e. complex carbs are found in starchy foods, simple carbs are found in sweet foods).

Scientists do not make this distinction:  If a chemical contains a specific chemical moeity, it is a type of sugar. full stop. There is more nuance when you describe their different structures but if you don't have the knowledge to understand their meaning, it's meaningless to present it in that way to non-scientists.

Natural/organic vs Artificial/added sugars:

There is no functional difference between chemicals that occur naturally and those that are manufactured.  The fructose/sucrose/glucose in a banana is exactly the same as what is in your drink mix. Your body cannot tell the difference AT ALL.

This isn't something that should really be controversial, but the amount of misinformation surrounding this idea of artificial/natural is absolutely astounding. The real reason a banana/potato is healthier for you than just straight candy is because of the additional fiber and the (literally) thousands of other chemicals naturally occuring in those items, not whether or not the carbohydrate you are consuming is artificial or not.

 

I looked into the way Hammer nutrition advertises their products (sorry Georgi), and frankly, it's pretty dishonest and is capitalizing on alot of recent diet trends and misinformation.  Here is the description from the website for their endurance gel:  

Unlike other similar-looking products on the market, Hammer Gel’s complex carbohydrates, all-natural ingredients, and pH-balancing formula are easily digestible, and provide quick-acting yet long-lasting energy in a convenient, tasty, concentrated form. 

The main ingredient in Hammer gel's products which provides energy is Maltodextrin.  Maltodextrin is an intensely processed (it is as ARTIFICAL as it gets, but they are claiming their product is ALL NATURAL) polysaccharide derived from the hydrolysis of starchy products.  The origin of Maltodextrin is corn/potatoes/wheat, but it's the same chemical regardless of its origin. Hammer has decided to use the marketing term "complex" to convince you that this Maltodextrin is somehow healthier for you than "simple sugars" such as fructose/glucose/sucrose, but this is just isn't true.  Consuming maltodextrin while at rest will (more or less) have the same impact as consuming table sugar, in fact the glycemic index for Maltodextrin is even higher.  All research on this chemical shows addition into a diet (for normal, non ultra endurance athletes) has the same impact as sugar (diabetes, weight gain, cardiovascular disease, etc.)). I just want to make it clear, there is nothing wrong with consuming maltodextrin, especially for endurance exercise, but claiming it is better for you than other carbohydrates is a lie.

More from Hammer nutrition (taken from their ingredient list on their website):
Potassium Chloride – Source of potassium and sodium.

-THERE IS NO SODIUM IN POTASSIUM CHLORIDE. This is probably a typo but damn, edit your website, Andrew is a single person and does a better job describing his product.

Energy Smart® (Grape Juice, Rice Dextrin) – This all-natural, low-sugar sweetener plays an important role in Hammer Gel’s delicious flavor while contributing minimally to the overall carbohydrate content. Energy Smart® is certified non-GMO, gluten-free, and allergen-free.

-Again, it is dishonest to call this chemical "all natural" just like maltodextrin, rice dextrin is produced by hydrolysis of starch and is intensely processed.  Also, there is nothing wrong with GMOs, Hammer is again capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to use their products (could go on about this subject literally forever, but I won't say more than that).

There's more to unpack with Hammer (sorry again Georgi) but it's not the only company that makes false claims about their sports nutrition products, it just so happens to be the most relevant to this discussion.

Given this information, I personally prefer Andrew's product over others because he is 100% honest about what he is selling you and it is very obvious that he has done his research.  He is not trying to convince you that his product is "organic" or doesn't contain "added sugars" (it damn well better have added sugar).  He is not capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to buy his product.  These reasons alone are enough of a reason to choose his product over others.  I am not going to even touch whatever specific formula Andrew is choosing to use in his product as it's outside my understanding and I haven't done enough research to contribute to that discussion; but damn, it works exactly as advertised.

Respect to all in this discussion. A big part of my job and what I have done for the past (10 years! wow, I am old af) is to present scientific information to a general audience AND a specialized audience so if any of the above information is unclear, please ask for clarification.  

Ramsey

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/2823f90e-c261-706e-b78e-acb928ce4d15%40gmail.com.

--

Georgi Stoychev

[Georgi Stoychev]

Agreed Ed. Very solid points and advice to newbies.  I was crewing on the Baloh team 2019 when he set  new RAAM  record. The only deviation from his diet that was tracked on a log by the hour was two cheeseburgers and one ice cream. His wife and crew chief did not even know about it but he was begging us :) But it was just a few treats and not the general rule.  I crossed the US myself on a little longer and harder route , 3472 miles and know well what junk at gas stations can do to you.  Ive done Rando events since 1999 & long distances at 10 Mph and 20 Mph. It's a different ball game. 

I can eat snickers bars and ride at 10 Mph and finish the SR Series just fine. Doing the same at 20 Mph will result in me on the floor of a gas station in GI distress. The health negatives are obvious.    Ask me how I know, by failing many times until I learned the hard way . . . I am not saying this as a doctor but rather from personal experience and trial and error. Ive had a few races at 3 W/Kg up to 12h and can agree that fueling  the engine at that power output is much more significant and tolling on the body. You cannot eat junk at that level , your body will fall apart. Ive talked to Strasser, he is begging his crew for more water at times or food but they are denying it and sticking to the plan. They all know the risk of edema and overeating , overhydrating ,GI distress. They even measured his body weight at every stop, draw blood and test it..

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/d3a246ae-100d-454c-91d5-167e6a0701f4n%40googlegroups.com.

--

Georgi Stoychev

[Ramsey Hanna]

I think Andrew makes some great points about how what you should consume on the bike to maximize performance is dramatically different than what you should be eating to have a healthy diet in general (i.e. off the bike nutrition, nobody should be slamming gels when they sit down for dinner, regardless of whether or not they are "complex" or not).  Additionally what you would consume on a slow brevet (i honestly don't even consume sports nutrition products at this pace) is different from what you would consume if you are smashing tempo or  > for hours.  Of course, everyone's physiology is different, but if your goal is to maximize performance  what Andrew said is true: consume as many carbohydrates as you can stomach, this is literally what every racer is doing and if your goal is to finish brevets as quickly as possible, that's exactly what you should do as well (if that's not your goal, do whatever works for you).

I am going to address some of the misconceptions I am seeing in this thread:

Simple vs Complex carbohydrates: There is obviously some confusion about how these terms are used. 

Nutritionists make this distinction: "Simple" means the sugar is non-polymeric.  "Complex" means the sugar is a polymer. From a chemistry and health perspective, this distinction is reductive, it has no bearing on how these food items are digested. Sometimes complex carbohydrates are rapidly digested/absorbed, sometimes they are not.  The linkages between the sugar molecules are what determines whether or not something is rapidly absorbed (or even edible, cellulose is a sugar, but leaves off a tree don't provide calories) It's just an easy way to describe the types of chemicals found in the generic food groups so information can more easily relayed to the general public (i.e. complex carbs are found in starchy foods, simple carbs are found in sweet foods).

Scientists do not make this distinction:  If a chemical contains a specific chemical moeity, it is a type of sugar. full stop. There is more nuance when you describe their different structures but if you don't have the knowledge to understand their meaning, it's meaningless to present it in that way to non-scientists.

Natural/organic vs Artificial/added sugars:

There is no functional difference between chemicals that occur naturally and those that are manufactured.  The fructose/sucrose/glucose in a banana is exactly the same as what is in your drink mix. Your body cannot tell the difference AT ALL.

This isn't something that should really be controversial, but the amount of misinformation surrounding this idea of artificial/natural is absolutely astounding. The real reason a banana/potato is healthier for you than just straight candy is because of the additional fiber and the (literally) thousands of other chemicals naturally occuring in those items, not whether or not the carbohydrate you are consuming is artificial or not.

 

I looked into the way Hammer nutrition advertises their products (sorry Georgi), and frankly, it's pretty dishonest and is capitalizing on alot of recent diet trends and misinformation.  Here is the description from the website for their endurance gel:  

Unlike other similar-looking products on the market, Hammer Gel’s complex carbohydrates, all-natural ingredients, and pH-balancing formula are easily digestible, and provide quick-acting yet long-lasting energy in a convenient, tasty, concentrated form. 

The main ingredient in Hammer gel's products which provides energy is Maltodextrin.  Maltodextrin is an intensely processed (it is as ARTIFICAL as it gets, but they are claiming their product is ALL NATURAL) polysaccharide derived from the hydrolysis of starchy products.  The origin of Maltodextrin is corn/potatoes/wheat, but it's the same chemical regardless of its origin. Hammer has decided to use the marketing term "complex" to convince you that this Maltodextrin is somehow healthier for you than "simple sugars" such as fructose/glucose/sucrose, but this is just isn't true.  Consuming maltodextrin while at rest will (more or less) have the same impact as consuming table sugar, in fact the glycemic index for Maltodextrin is even higher.  All research on this chemical shows addition into a diet (for normal, non ultra endurance athletes) has the same impact as sugar (diabetes, weight gain, cardiovascular disease, etc.)). I just want to make it clear, there is nothing wrong with consuming maltodextrin, especially for endurance exercise, but claiming it is better for you than other carbohydrates is a lie.

More from Hammer nutrition (taken from their ingredient list on their website):
Potassium Chloride – Source of potassium and sodium.

-THERE IS NO SODIUM IN POTASSIUM CHLORIDE. This is probably a typo but damn, edit your website, Andrew is a single person and does a better job describing his product.

Energy Smart® (Grape Juice, Rice Dextrin) – This all-natural, low-sugar sweetener plays an important role in Hammer Gel’s delicious flavor while contributing minimally to the overall carbohydrate content. Energy Smart® is certified non-GMO, gluten-free, and allergen-free.

-Again, it is dishonest to call this chemical "all natural" just like maltodextrin, rice dextrin is produced by hydrolysis of starch and is intensely processed.  Also, there is nothing wrong with GMOs, Hammer is again capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to use their products (could go on about this subject literally forever, but I won't say more than that).

There's more to unpack with Hammer (sorry again Georgi) but it's not the only company that makes false claims about their sports nutrition products, it just so happens to be the most relevant to this discussion.

Given this information, I personally prefer Andrew's product over others because he is 100% honest about what he is selling you and it is very obvious that he has done his research.  He is not trying to convince you that his product is "organic" or doesn't contain "added sugars" (it damn well better have added sugar).  He is not capitalizing on recent diet trends to get you to buy his product.  These reasons alone are enough of a reason to choose his product over others.  I am not going to even touch whatever specific formula Andrew is choosing to use in his product as it's outside my understanding and I haven't done enough research to contribute to that discussion; but damn, it works exactly as advertised.

Respect to all in this discussion. A big part of my job and what I have done for the past (10 years! wow, I am old af) is to present scientific information to a general audience AND a specialized audience so if any of the above information is unclear, please ask for clarification.  

Ramsey

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/2823f90e-c261-706e-b78e-acb928ce4d15%40gmail.com.

[ed bernasky]

My two main points

1.  Cyclic branched dextrin's low osmolality, high solubility, and low glycemic index has some advantages and Andre's product is worth trying, personally I use another Cyclic branched dextrin drink mix but rarely due to cost and logistics of carrying it on a long one.  

2.  Trying to consume 100-120 grams of any carb per hour over the course of 8-24 hours is a mistake for most or nearly all randonneurs and here is my reasoning....

Balancing one's power output capability to energy intake ability (sub barf consumption) takes some experience, nobody is riding Tempo for the duration of a 600 or 1200k and it is a rare rider who can do Tempo power (76-90% of FTP) on average for a 300k.  longer brevets might start at zone 2 but we all end up crawling in zone 1.  The question as to what causes fatigue on long events isn't entirely settled but pounding 100-120 kcals/hour into a body producing 80-100W hour isn't a good recipe.  Average power times 3.6 cal/w is approx. the energy burnt.  If a typical sized rando does 150 Watts average for say PBP,  this would easily be a Charly Miller ride burning around 540 kcals per hour.  To do that power, the rider probably would probably have an FTP 240-250 watts or thereabouts but more importantly, the grand randonnee would be in zone 1 (up to 55% of FTP) and zone 2 (56-75% of FTP) for average power on a distribution basis and a high percentage of that energy comes from one's own fat and from a fatigue limiter, slowtwitch muscles would be doing almost all of the work, and certainly once the so-called matches are burn and type 2 fibers are toasty. Muscle fiber percentages and mitochondrial enzymes certainly vary from individual to individual.  Nonetheless, if one is burning 540 cals/hr in the above example, one does not need to consume 100-120 grams of carbs per hour.  If one is only burning 50 grams of glycogen per hour while eating 100-120 grams of carbs, where does the excess go eventually.

Lot of wordy words, when Velocio said it best.  "Eat lightly and often"  (Maybe should have been...."eat lightly, often, and do not puke"

If nauseous on a brevet, try following  Paul de Vivie's advice.  

If you can ride Tempo for 10+ hours and can stomach 120 grams in your bottles per hour  (480 calories), bless your heart.  

[Dan Driscoll]

Many of us just finished the Austin Quick and Dirty 1,200km, Monday. 

My Garmin showed over 95 degrees everyday. 

Several that I know, and probably more, did at least day one, almost 400km, on liquids, very successfully. 

I mixed Andrew’s drink with some snacks and did not barf once ;=)

Many Thanks to Jeff and all my K-Hound buddies that made last weekends 4 days of riding an absolute fantasy come true. 

DanD 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/4b959d19-8b06-4ffc-b4a0-61b1b720d0acn%40googlegroups.com.

[Dan Driscoll]

Howard, 

I was a Tail Winds guy, till Geluminati, and although it was ok, I just got tired of drinking it after a couple hundred k’s and found myself lacking calories latter in the ride. 

Best of luck with this nutrition experiment ;=

DanD 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/CAGtdDsuLmXZ6-M0MjpU3HSMQjzE%2Bw8g9Gs6Jgkfa3O3o7cfhsg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Andrew Adere]

Ed,

These are good points, and I do agree that targeting 100-120g/hr would probably spell trouble for most randos.

In my personal experience, though, what causes me to crawl into zone 1 is a lack of glycogen, which comes from carbohydrates.

When I upped my carb intake from 60g/hr to 80g/hr minimum, targeting 100+g/hr, my performance on long brevets increased significantly. I 100% agree that pushing tempo pace/z3 is an awful idea - my goal is to keep from hitting the wall where I can't get out of recovery pace/z1 and what works for me and makes sense based on my understanding of the human body is more carbohydrates. I do ride endurance pace at 150-160W... though I highly disagree that's anywhere near Charly Miller pace! I do love my sleep, though... a big part of why I'll probably never try for that award.

The easy limiter here is if it's not easy to take on more carbs, listen to your body and don't.

You should never be pushing yourself to the point of vomiting to meet some ascribed carb intake, but you also shouldn't be scared of taking on more carbs if you feel good. Of course, it'll get harder to take on more carbs the longer the day wears on but that's what gummi worms are for (and Geluminati, lol). When it's hour 10 of a 400k and you know you need something and your stomach is just rebelling against digesting anything at all, that's an appropriate time to force the issue and make sure you get something down every little bit.

I just asked someone who knows far more than me about average carb/fat utilization at endurance pace and the answer was "It Depends" (insert screaming emoji here), so unfortunately I can't comment on your math from a position of certainty as any comment I'd make breaks down without a % of carb/fat use, but I do know that the body prefers carbs since they're faster energy and if your body is reaching for carbs and you don't have them available it spells trouble as you bonk. Additionally, the body starts with a limited supply of glycogen and once it burns through that it's pretty dependent on exogenous carbs (those you eat). Typically endogenous (in the body) carbs last about 2hrs or so at reasonable effort, so I dunno maybe 3ish hrs at rando pace. This starts to get deeper into the "It Depends" territory. Also remember that the harder you push, such as up a climb, the more carbs you're using and they're slow to replenish.

Definitely agree on the eat lightly and often - chugging down a bunch of carbs at one time is no bueno. That's one reason I love having a drink mix - my body can self-regulate unconsciously as I take a longer pull on a bottle, for more carbs, more electrolytes, or just more fluids. Then I stick to a fairly regular routine with carb intake from solid food (or gummi candy later on in long rides).

In answer to your question about the theoretical 50g carb use/hr and where does the excess go, it either sits in your stomach or hopefully clears the stomach and gets into the intestine. But if you're eating double what you're using your body is pretty quickly going to throw up a flag and say "Hey, slow it down on feeding me - I'm good for now", and folks should definitely listen to their body. If you can tolerate the additional carb intake, though, once the carbs on in your body they're either sitting there waiting to get used or being converted to fat (and probably some other "or"s) and having the energy available for use by the body is important.

Thanks for bringing up these points and giving me the opportunity to think and talk more about these things. Basically, carbs are good, if you can stomach more - do so. If you can't stomach more - don't. Definitely don't push yourself to vomiting.

Andrew

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/81cee833-c266-488e-a944-9822b4877edbn%40googlegroups.com.

[ed bernasky]

Slowtwitch muscles perform well on fat, I would argue better on long events.  

WRT 150 watts average to do a very fast 1200k, that is a real number.  You can verify/estimate it with bestbikesplits if interested.

Optimized pacing involves not only going to hard but eating just enough.  Some of us are Case 3 metabolically limited as described in the following link and bonking or feeling really lousy is almost assured whereas a rando who controls pace and burns a higher percentage of fat (lower VLA max) will be bonk proof if they just eat a little bit of carbs here and there.  RER and LVA max testing is well beyond the interest of randonneurs as we can learn to pace ourselves holistically.

In any case, I like highly branched dextrin because it does not spike my insulin or cause too rapid a rise in blood glucose and it is much, much easier to mix than maltodextrin and if needed, I can pound 400 calories per hour as it seems to empty easily for me (I have to limit fructose).  

GL everyone.....give his product a try.

https://www.alancouzens.com/blog/fatburning_test_2.html

https://alancouzens.com/blog/improving_fat_burning2.html

[Andrew Adere]

Hey y'all,

I came across a nice study again today (finally starting a folder of these things) and wanted to share as it's relevant to my previous claims here about higher carbohydrate intake. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7284742/

This is a study on mountain marathon runners during a 42.2km race... nice because it's hard to get studies done any anything longer than a couple hours. It compared hourly carb intake of 60g/hr, 90g/hr, and 120g/hr and the 120g/hr group showed lower markers of exercise induced muscle damage as well as a lower exercise load (the latter calculated based on RPE, rating of perceived exertion). This is a great article with a lot of recent information and I recommend the read for anyone interested in the nerdy, sciencey side of fueling for sport.

Please note a few participants did withdraw from the study due to gastrointestinal issues - none of this is intended to advocate for force-feeding yourself beyond your limits, but if you can work up to this higher carb intake benefits have been shown. One thing to keep in mind is that while yes this was a shorter event than even a 200k runners are much more susceptible to GI issues due to all the bouncing around they're doing while running, whereas we are pretty stable on the bike.

A couple key sections:

"This study was designed to compare the effects of different CHO intakes during a mountain marathon on EIMD [exercise induced muscle damage] markers and exercise load. It was hypothesized that a dose of 120 g/h during a mountain marathon could limit EIMD and exercise load and improve postexercise muscle recovery regarding ultraendurance athletes’ CHO intake (60 g/h) and international recommendations for these events (90 g/h). The main findings obtained from this study revealed that higher CHO intake (120g/h—EXP) than that currently recommended (60—LOW and 90g/h—CON) during a mountain marathon significantly limits the increase in EIMD markers such as CK, LDH and GOT after the event (p < 0.05), representing a lower EIMD. In addition, a significantly lower exercise load was found in the EXP group compared to LOW and CON (p < 0.05), showing that 120 g/h CHO intake could be a determining factor in the internal exercise load response. These results led us to understand that ingesting a high CHO intake during a mountain marathon event might constitute a suitable strategy for limiting EIMD. Moreover, these findings suggest that current recommendations of 90 g/h CHO for exercise lasting more than 2.5 h might not be enough to limit physiological and metabolic responses after a marathon."

"These findings might open up some relevant future research lines by demonstrating that 120 g/h CHO intake during endurance exercise could be the next CHO target quantity to show possible benefits related to delayed glycogen depletion, limited EIMD and improved performance and recovery. Although current guidelines establish the intestinal absorption limit at 90 g/h with multiple intestinal transporters [36,47,78], it has been demonstrated that 120 g/h might be possibly absorbed without gastrointestinal distress, and that future research is needed to understand the physiological and metabolic mechanisms of this absorption. Along the same lines, this study highlights the need to research into the potential effect of “training the gut” strategy in improving CHO intake, transport and utilization during endurance exercise." Emphasis mine, to support earlier discussion in this thread. I also like how this emphasizes that there's still plenty more research to be done.

"This study emphasizes the importance of ingesting CHO during endurance events such as mountain marathons and ultraendurance events. Higher CHO intakes could probably limit metabolic fatigue, EIMD and internal load, thus improving recovery. These could be beneficial for endurance athletes, coaches and nutritionists to enable them to recovery form day-to-day training sessions and, therefore, ensure training capacity and health. As we understand it, every athlete who competes in an endurance event should train in the nutritional aspect and work closely with suitable nutritional strategies to limit EIMD."

Important note: " Although neither general nor specific guidelines were provided about gut training in this study, all of the participants carried out personalized gut training (training of the intestinal tract to increase tolerance and absorption capacity) as prescribed by their nutritionists (inclusion criteria). During this gut training, athletes needed to have used CHO intakes of up to 90 g/h at least 2 days/week in the 4 weeks prior to the mountain marathon [35,44]."

This was shared by Phil Batterson on his Instagram. Phil is co-host of the wonderful but seemingly currently on hiatus Oxidative Potential podcast, fitness coach, and currently finishing his Ph.D in molecular exercise physiology focus on how our muscles adapt to dietary and exercise interventions. There's some good additional discussion in the comments and it's a great opportunity to ask a current expert in the field any technical questions. https://www.instagram.com/p/CqvN2R_LF1B/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Hope you all find this interesting!

Andrew

PS: Just found this other study in the instagram comments - done with the same event but with additional results published separately. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7400827/

[Amy G]

Hi, 

I would point out that this study offered https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7284742/ 

contained 26 male elite athletes which does not negate its outcome but is noteworthy vis a vis relative starting place and gender. Here is another viewpoint which may offer additional information by Dr. Stacy Sims, an exercise physiologist whose research on female athletes and the variability of hormones impacting the muscle mass and fluctuating protein needs might add to the conversation for some of us. https://www.drstacysims.com/

It's great to see the collective wisdom gathered here. I currently use the Science in Sport gels with regular food which has worked well overall. Always interested in other options.

All the best. Safe travels out on the road!

Amy

On Tuesday, November 8, 2022 at 10:47:16 AM UTC-5 Dan Driscoll wrote:

Randos,

A fellow Randonneur, Andrew Adere, RUSA #13914, started a sports nutrition company, “Geluminati", they are currently selling a powdered endurance drink mix, of carbs and electrolytes. It's working great for the long riding we do. It nets 240 kcal / 60g carbs per bottle, along with 420mg sodium, and some potassium and magnesium.

The real delight, is how light it is - both in taste and on your tummy. I’ve used this product for months and on many long Hot rides this year, with zero issues. When I’m pushing on the bike, solid food is annoying to get down, this drink mix goes down easy and works well for a more constant flow of calories and electrolytes, than what I can get with solid food and pills. 

One thing that sets this mix above simple surgery mixes, is the use of a new type of complex carb, highly branched cyclic dextrin (HBCD), as its main ingredient. This carb is formed of incredibly long chains of glucose, it's property allows it to clear the stomach quickly and then break down slowly in the intestine. It eliminates the gut distress, that I get with Maltodextrin. Even with all the energy and electrolytes, the HBCD allows the mix to be hypo-tonic, which means the drink is still going to be hydrating even with 60gms of carbs, per bottle.

On top of using this new type of carb for its useful properties, the mix also uses the 1:0.8 glucose:fructose ratio that research has shown to be most effective in reducing gut distress and increasing carbohydrate processing (how many calories you can digest in an hour). I’m a fan of a combination of High Glycemic simple sugars and complex carbs. 

If you are not thrilled with your current drink mix, I'd recommend giving this a shot. Shipping can give a bit of sticker shock but it doesn't go up much if you buy multiple bags at once, and if you buy 10 the 10th is free. After testing with the first bag, I bought 10 at a time for the economy. Maybe get a few buddies to go in on the first try? 

The website is www.geluminati.com  and you can email Andrew at in...@geluminati.com with questions, he’s been super helpful to me. If you decide to give Andrew’s product a try, please email him and let him know you are a Randonneur, it’s our hope that we can get him as an advertiser in the American Randonneur Magizine ;=) 

DanD 

[Barankay, Iwan]

Dear Georgi,

 

Just catching up on this topic and I am a bit lost as people seem to use different definitions for what they eat or not. Just to avoid confusion on my end what is your nutrition plan for, say, a 400?

 

Best wishes,

 

Iwan

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/CAPXGV1sA%2Bf4wp47WequvceYiGCitZXzTicGa0v2Ub%3DKws7t7FQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Pam Wright]

Thank you Amy!

I've been motivated by medical issues to be more proactive in my research and find the same questions, and answers, regarding medical research.  95% of medical research is conducted on men because they provide a predictable medium...women do not.  It has been staggering to learn that hormonal research, even estrogen, concentrates on men.

Like you, I'm always interested in other options and opinions and I'll reciprocate by introducing Empowering & Educating Women.  Regardless of political tendencies, the Laura Bush Institute for Women's Health focuses medical research on women with fascinating results sometimes showing opposite results from testing on males and females.  It is definitely not all in our heads and working WITH our bodies opens up so many possibilities.

Thank you for introducing me to Stacy Sims... the timing is perfect for me :)

Pam Wright

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[Georgi Stoychev]

Hey Iwan,

  I can't really prescribe a nutrition plan as I am not certified to do so. I can recommend what has worked for me. 

  There are variables and they are important. Like pre conditions, fitness level, absorption levels, dietary restrictions, level of effort during the event. Even as simple as what the weather and terrain is. For example, we finished a 300 km event yesterday, for me, it was 51% effort but for others , more like 60 to 65 for example. We finished together. However , we likely needed different amounts of food. The weather was  great, low humidity, low temperature & no major climbs. As a result, not much was needed to consume.

  We finished in 13h12 min and only used about 6 bottles of liquids. Without name brands, each bottle had 1 serving of two different products and I was stretching it, likely 2 hours per bottle - 290 calories, 64g carbs, 6 grams protein. Ive also had some mini nut bars  - 90 calories, 8 g carbs & 3 g protein per bar, one each hour. I also had one sandwich. If I was going at a much faster pace, this would have changed significantly. We have different tolerance and absorption rates imo . . . If it was hot, hilly and humid, the same - more of everything. 

   One thing I learned is that little is better than more - If you just do the bare minimum, you feel much better and if in trouble, you can easily digest some extra fuel. If you overeat and then you are in trouble, doing the same might result in massive GI distress. I am not sure I answered your question :)

   Again, ... i think protein is also important .. just carbs won't do it ... I am not going technical here , but speaking from being in many seminars for top athletes and personal experience. Eating too little is not good  but overeating can be just as bad if not worse. Same goes with drinking, Ive had some bad edema at PBP, Racing across the US. . . etc.  You can get away with a lot on shorter distances but the same is not true on multi day events. 

I suggest getting a nutritionist and doing some testing if you wanna go really scientific. There are methods where for example, you digest some food, do  effort and they draw blood and test. Repeat for like 10 different products and see how your body reacts. We are all made differently but we are all beautiful at the same time. Happy riding Iwan.

--

Georgi Stoychev

[Barankay, Iwan]

Dear Georgi,

 

Thank you for taking the time for this detailed response.

 

Herer is what I did recently. On a recent solo 300K pre-ride in hilly PA (just under 15h) I opted for putting 200g of maltodextrin in my 2l water bladder. I stopped three times when I had a large coffee with milk (sidenote: coffee is a great performance enhancer!), a bagel at one stop, a pie at another, and I picked up 6 chicken popcorns at the last stop that I ate on the bike when I fancied them – those little things are great as they taste so different and pack a lot of salt which is good for mood. I added water to my water bladder at stops which thinned out the maltodextrin to naturally adjust for the fact that later on in the ride I might not be able to handle it well. In the future I will add fructose as well to follow recent insights or the 1:0.8 ratio.

 

In the past I used a lot of electrolyte tablets but I learned that I have to be careful with them. No doubt I sweat a lot but when I use the recommended dosage, I sometimes get severe water retention issues (no #1!) which resolves by not using them.

 

An alternative plan for me is to bring sandwich subs with salami or prosciutto. The white bread is easy to digest and and the cold cuts add some flavor and salts. Recommended! They also don’t spoil of go mushy on the bike.

 

In the end I can’t help but think that we are all so different from each other physically and in terms of our goals (perhaps some of us do want to get physically drained as that is an experience unlike anything we have in ours lives whilst others pursue personal bests).

Then there are those like me who have kids and a busy job so little time to train at some parts of the year to get the gut used to eating an unusual diet. So it is always good to keep our eyes open for options at stops.

Research advances a lot and I predict it will get better at including a more diverse age and fitness range along with better gender representation in particular to understand, for instance, how diet and metabolism evolves around menopause, or after having children; or how about when people have to go on medication for diabetes, blood pressure, statins, depression etc. – something that is of particular interest to us as many riders are older.

 

Iwan

[ken jessett]

I wanted to report that on a 100 mile ride with 4,000 feet of climbing Sunday I used Geluminati at full strength and suffered no ill effects and had enough energy - along with bites of banana bread - to not need any other form of nutrition. I did carry some fig bars but they went to a little hungry dog which came running up to me crying for food.

Ken J.

[Linh Nguyen]

Hi,

I like to get some feedback from powder users who are pre diabetics or diabetics.

First, I like the new Geluminati powder that started this thread.  As to date, I have ordered 6 bags and will continue to use it as I find it's very good for my ride.  On the third day of PBP, I decided to exclusively use powder as the only fuel source to save time waiting in line and digesting foods.  It worked very well.  There are a couple things that I find it as negative:

it doesn't dissolve easily as I have to keep shaking it

it leaves black marks on the bottle 

One thing I find consistent is:  I'm getting a high glucose number when I wake up the next morning.  The more I drank, like a 600K, my fasting glucose the next morning would be in the 150 range.  If it's a couple hours ride when I have 2 bottles, it's still higher than my average morning fasting number.  I am curious about the science behind the spike in glucose number.

Thanks

Linh

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/631d431f-da63-495c-9356-28a415de681an%40googlegroups.com.

[Paul G. Rozelle]

Hi, Linh--

Parent of a Type 1 diabetic (who is also a randonneur and bike racer) here but I don't have any medical education or training.

Short version: You're taking in carbs at a rate greater than your body can process, either because you don't produce your own insulin (Type 1) or you're insulin resistant (Type 2).  

Geluaminati is just pure carbs -- 100% of its caloric content is carbohydrates -- so for those without a functioning/fully functioning pancreas, taking in nothing but carbs (regardless of some company's claim about how those carbs are "constructed") is going to have you riding the rollercoaster on your blood glucose numbers.  You're going to be all over the map.  Adding calories to your diet during rides from fat and protein will smooth out your body's processing of those carbs and your blood glucose numbers will be more stable, all things being equal.

Of course, all things aren't ever equal, especially for diabetics.  Among other things, your BG numbers are also influenced by the temperature, your stress level, hormones, altitude, caffeine and other drugs on board, whether you ate the carbs first and then the protein/fat or vice versa, and -- of course -- by exercise duration and intensity.  Getting all this dialed in is a real art form, especially if you take insulin where it's going to be necessary to make adjustments to your basal rate and how (and even whether!) you cover the carbs you ingest. 

The tricks we've learned over the years for long, steady rides mostly focus around eating consistently throughout the ride and ingesting liberal amounts of protein and fat -- Muscle Milk, Ensure, or similar products. There's also the recognition that you've got to fuel the athlete first: If you don't take in calories then your long ride just isn't going to happen, plain and simple -- and then "fix" the BG numbers around that reality.  Part of this is accepting that, for endurance activities especially, you're going to run higher BG numbers than you're likely comfortable with in "normal" life.  Something around 150 mg/dL has been *perfect* for starting a long ride.  We've spoken with pro cyclists and other pro athletes who have T1D and that's generally their take on it, too, for what it's worth.  A T1D starting an endurance activity with BG "in range" and *any* insulin on board will end up hypoglycemic almost 100% of the time -- contact me off-list and I'll send you what we've collected on the limited research on this, if geeking out on nutrition science for diabetics doing endurance activities is your jam....

Another big point here: Being high isn't good (long-term health consequences; feeling lousy), but hypoglycemia is an acutely dangerous and potentially fatal condition.  And the benefits of a healthy lifestyle -- like going long bike rides! -- massively outweigh the effects of the "time out of range" during that activity.  

After the ultra-distance event, it takes your body about a day to re-regulate itself when it comes to BG....  Running high isn't abnormal.  Neither is running low (especially at night after you stop your activity).  High is especially common if you took in all those carbs on the bike and then, post-ride, put down some pizza or other fatty/protein-heavy foods.

See you on the road,

Paul ROZELLE

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/CANkM%3DvTjq%2BZAPj2Rd05exzWGa8WZK9yfcf44ajOBrHvquVp%2BRA%40mail.gmail.com.

[ken jessett]

Linh,

I find it works better if you also add Scratch to it, it does not seem to coagulate if the G is all by itself. One negative about Geluminati though - apart from the flatulence it generates - is that it leaves a sticky residue both outside as well as inside the bottles. 

 

Sorry abut your diabetic issues, it does not sound like a lot of fun.

Ken J.

[Eric Nichols]

Re: Geluminati. The temperature of the water determines how fast it dissolves. If it’s mixed with cold water it can clump. If this happens and the weather is warm, just put the bottle on your bike and start riding. By the time you need it, the water will have warmed up and the clump will have dissolved. 

I used Geluminati this year on most brevets, though I often alternate with bottles with Skratch, Skratch HC, or plain water. I find I drink more consistently if I give myself some variety.

I haven’t noticed any increase in flatulence… but my baseline is pretty high.

Eric in NH

[ken jessett]

"I haven’t noticed any increase in flatulence… but my baseline is pretty high. "

 So you wouldn't advise anyone riding behind you?

[Dan Driscoll]

Eric, I agree…. Been using Geluminati since it came out, and I’ve dialed in a process that works for me. 

 - I make up snack baggies (one serving per bottle), with some protein powder, vitamins and sometimes caffeine. 

 - 5 snack baggies into a sandwich baggie, so I don’t get powder in the trunk if there’s a baggie rupture. 

 - Take baggies and bottles into the bathroom of the gas station, run water till warm, fill bottle up half way, add powder and shake. 

 - Fill remainder of bottle with water or ice depending on temps. 

 - Rinse outsides of bottles. 

 - If using a Camelbak, mix up in bottles first then pour into Camelbak and then add ice. 

 - I’ve had no issues, like I’ve experienced with Maltodextrin. 

 - I like that Andrew is a Rando and that he advertises in American Randonneur Magizine. 

I don’t do clumps well, but like cold water on hot rides, 

DanD 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/9791e5b9-9fea-46a1-9e2a-91068cb0171bn%40googlegroups.com.

[ken jessett]

Dan, I know you do some incredibly long rides - maybe you need therapy for it ;-) - are you finding you can sustain yourself without supplementing the G solid food?

[ken jessett]

That should have read: supplementing the G with solid food?

[Joshua Haley]

As a fellow gelumnati user,

It doesn't replace solids for me at controls, but I am much less in the hole when I do eat and have more consistent power in-between controls. I'm not a small engine, so it takes a ton of fuel for me to climb.  I have a similar system to Dan for storage. I don't use warm water, but I do put some anger into those bottles while shaking.

Andrew also literally offered me the food off his back at PBP when I said I didn't bring enough, so I have some nonperformance based bias 😆

Josh

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/randonneurs-usa/2783dae4-867e-4eb9-b269-43d3fa4e9610n%40googlegroups.com.

[Pete Dusel]

Dan,

  Try dropping one or two glass marbles in your water bottle. Helps things mix when you shake. Also works great in a spray gun if you're shooting metallic colors that tend to settle out.

Pete