The Perfect Randonneuring Bike

[James Halay]

Hello all,

I am a 6' 2", 210 pound 62 year old randonneur who is contemplating a new bike. My pedigree includes multiple BAM's (Bike Across Missouri) BMB, PBP and the High Country 1200 last summer. I am currently riding a 2011 carbon fiber Specialized Roubaix with Sram Red components and 32 spoke Mavic CXP 22 wheels with dynamo. My luggage is a seat post mounted Detour bag and a top tube lunch bag. The weight is about 19 pounds outfitted for randonneuring and 17 pounds with Mavic Krysrium SL wheels and no lights/bags.

The good things about this bike are:

1. Compliant ride, low vibration transmission to hands and feet

2. Suitable geometry, no steering or handling issues

3. Fairly light weight

4. Stiff where it is supposed to be stiff for maximum efficiency

5. Sram Red components

Living in Utah I ride up and down a lot of hills and in the past three years I have had two tire/tube blow outs due to overheating rims upon descending long steep hills. So, the new bike MUST have disc brakes and I will also require eyelets for a rack and real fenders, we had a lot of rain during our 2014 brevet series and the High Country.

I have identified two bikes that may suit my requirements, the Trek Domane and the Volagi Licio. The Domane only comes with Shimano which makes it more expensive to buy the bare frame and build it up myself with Sram components. I will be visiting the Volagi headquarters in Ogden, Utah tomorrow for a test ride and it comes custom with just about any components I specify.

So dear friends, I have all winter to purchase the PERFECT randonneur bike, and there are many small builders / brands out there to choose from, what is your opinion of the perfect bike for me? And why?

Jim Halay, RUSA 066

Eden, Utah

[Jan Heine]

Hi Jim,

I recommend you read the bike tests in the back issues of Bicycle Quarterly. Then you can make your own decision. See

http://www.bikequarterly.com/test_bikes.html

Best regards,

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
Seattle WA USA
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to randon+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/randon.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 

[Michael Meiser]

i would prescribe a Trek Boone. Probably with hydraulic disc brakes.

1) dampened just like the Trek Domane, should be an improvement over your roubaix. great reviews, very light

2) relaxed cyclocross geometry

3) disc brakes, can go hydraulic or cable

4) durable beefier build then a regular road bike

5) tire clearance, plenty of room for 40mm tires and/or fenders. Even hidden fender mounts.

6) light as you want to make it. 16lbs is very possible.

Second choice. Salsa Titanium Colossal or Warbird. All the natural dampening properties and weight savings of the Titanium plus you get a little added durability over carbon.

I don't have your pedigree in randoneering yet but I do ultra endurance and very ultralight touring.

Also, while there is always a way to put a rack on even the lightest bike i highly recommend frame bags. Most local bike shops can now get Revelate Designs frame bags through the distributor QBP. These include main frame /full triangle bags, super twinkie rear stuffable saddle bags, Tangle Top tube bags, gas tank bags, jerry can bags and handlebar bags. i recommend the stuffable Viscacha and Pika super twinkie seat bags as the absolute best bag for spare jackets/cloathing.  And thhe tangle top tube bag is the golden standars for a tremendous amount of food, water bladder and other kit. You will see these promoted heavily on Salsa's website.

Below is a link to my Trek Cronus fully kitted out for ultralight touring. Including carbon Salsa wheels which though very UL were originally built for 29'r and are extremely beefy. The cronus is the predecessor to the Boone. Indeed I would have upgraded already but they only make the boone up to 62cm and i must have a 64cm. :(

https://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/8553786653/

You wouldn't obviously need the main triangle bag. I highly recommend the Revelate Tangle instead.

Can provide pictures of my titanium Salsa Fargo, but that is more an off-road rig. I've done bothe the eastern and western divide on that.

-mike

--

[Paul Toigo]

-1 on hydraulic disc brakes. A significant tenet of randonneuring is self-sufficiency. IMHO, it isn't practical to carry the equipment to work on a hydraulics. Get BB7s and pack a brake cable.

On my IF Ti Club Racer, Randi, there are many design elements with which I'm pleased:
1) Externally routed cables for ease of maintenance.
2) Sexy, comfortable ENVE carbon everywhere.
3) 50-34 chainrings, 11-32 cassette. Shimano Ultegra 2x11. To each his own.
4) SKS P35 fenders. Good for adhering lots of 3M 983-23 hi-vis yellow tape.

OTOH, I just have a couple of things I'd do different (or so I think).
1) For the dynamo, I'd get the Schmidt SONdelux instead of the SON28. Lower weight and less drag.
2) For the rear disc caliper, I'd have it mounted on the chainstay instead of the seatstay. I now frequently use a rear rack and the seatstay mounted caliper is difficult to adjust and the rack is kind of rigged to clear the caliper. However, I'm being told a chainstay mounted caliper compromises the rigidity of a Ti bike because of the longer chainstays required to assure heal clearance.

The one thing I want for my PERFECT randonneur bike doesn't exist. I have an ENVE Cross Disc fork that has been modified for mounting a fender and light. I wish each blade also had a pair of water bottle bosses AND the ENVE factory finish including decals. Feel free to let ENVE know you want one too. :)

[Michael Meiser]

i think we talk the same language.

comments inline below.

On Nov 6, 2014 11:05 PM, "Paul Toigo" <toig...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> -1 on hydraulic disc brakes. A significant tenet of randonneuring is self-sufficiency. IMHO, it isn't practical to carry the equipment to work on a hydraulics. Get BB7s and pack a brake cable.

i respectfully point out that a properly maintained hydraulic system is as reliable and at least as maintence free as some of the wheelsets we've discussed here. I am far far more likely to break a spoke then have any kind of problem with hydraulic lines. Hydraulic disc pads are btw just as easy to replace as mechanical.

that said i've had bb7 on three of my bikes, two current. being 6'5", 250+ pounds and loving the mountains and hills i swear by disc brakes and wish all my bikes, especially my road had them. i would not hesitate to go hydraulic. i just haven't had the option as all but one of my bikes have drop bars and shimano just came out with hydraulic disc this past year. while i love my bb7 mechanical the hydraulic brakes just stop significantly better. Better meaning less pressure, less fingers and less finger fatigue on those long long descents.

BTW one other note. the single thing that improved my disc brake performance the most on bb7 were switching from end to end cables. the second thing was the moving of the disc brake caliper from the chain stay on the rear to the seat stay. this changed the cable to over the top tube so water wouldn't get into the line and degrade performance. indeed the cable routing on my 2014 salsa fargo is some of the smartest i've seen and it has made a huge difference in not only braking but long term shifting performance. It even has cantilever dropouts for switching to singlespeed in the event of damage to the derailleur. In short i love it, but if one is going hydraulic and even electronic this is a mute point.

now the fargo is an off road tourer, but that does not mean i don't wish these features were on a road bike. indeed they may well be on the new titanium salsa colossal (endurance road) and warbird (cyclocross style endurance) but i have not checked their spec.

I think the Trek Boone (CX) and the Domane (road specific endurance) use internal cable routing on all their higher end line. Same difference. Indeed the Boone 9 with electronic shifting and hydraulic this cable routing is a mute point to performance and only of concern to shedding dirt, rain and mud which. great points for the boone as well.

My Trek Cronus uses internal cable routing btw and it's gotten so easy and accessible i can and have changed cables in the field on more then one occasion. Mostly it is due a large removeable access port underneath the bottom bracket. Again, mute point if you are going hydraulic and/or electronic.

As for electronic, i shall steer a little clear of it as it's it's own bag. i used to be against it, but it's getting VERY good. months without charging and the ability to put electronic button shifters in multiple places, i.e. you could remove them from the STI and use any brake lever you wanted (hydraulic or mechanical) and/or put them on an aerobar and the sti lever simultaneously. The USB charge plug is now under the stem for ease of access which leaves the battery to hide IN the frame, though on the boone and domane still easily accessible via the forementioned removeable bottom bracket plate.

There is one other thing about disc brakes btw.  The ability to quickly switch between completely different wheels. You could switch to from an aluminum rim to carbon, from a 19.5 to 23mm rim without any adjustment whatsoever. Or a wheel with a dynamo front hub for that matter. this is a huge thing for me as i've been running at least two wheelsets on every bike i own for the years.  favorite combinations are 23mm continental four season on one set, 40mm kenda happy medium on the other.   Or studded one set in the winter. The larger capacity of the cyclocross frame gives this flexibility and capacity as well as fender space.

> On my IF Ti Club Racer, Randi, there are many design elements with which I'm pleased:
> 1) Externally routed cables for ease of maintenance.

Agreed mostly. Except in specific cases mentioned above.

> 2) Sexy, comfortable ENVE carbon everywhere.

ha, wish i could afford more enve carbon. i guess they got the name right.

> 3) 50-34 chainrings, 11-32 cassette. Shimano Ultegra 2x11. To each his own.

the mountain are all going double as well, even single. simple fact of the matter is when you have 10 or 11 rings and up to an 11-34 road (or 9-42 mountain) you have more then enough range and in between that you can simplify with two gears up front or even one on mountain.

i run 10 speed with ultegra 50/34 and alternate between 11-25, 11-28 and 11-32 on the rear depending on wheelset and conditions. It is all hot swapable.

> 4) SKS P35 fenders. Good for adhering lots of 3M 983-23 hi-vis yellow tape.
>
> OTOH, I just have a couple of things I'd do different (or so I think).
> 1) For the dynamo, I'd get the Schmidt SONdelux instead of the SON28. Lower weight and less drag.

have thought about and thought about, probably never will because i like to many wheel /tire combknations.  Also cell phones and above all led lights are getting so wickedly efficient. Have used 250 lumen 4AA fennix stuff in the past, but anymore rechargeable bike specific lights are so cheap and efficient i have just gone full rechargeable for all but the most remote trips.

> 2) For the rear disc caliper, I'd have it mounted on the chainstay instead of the seatstay. I now frequently use a rear rack and the seatstay mounted caliper is difficult to adjust and the rack is kind of rigged to clear the caliper. However, I'm being told a chainstay mounted caliper compromises the rigidity of a Ti bike because of the longer chainstays required to assure heal clearance.

i feel the opposite for reasons stated above, but i don't reccommend racks. instead recommend frame bags for weight savings and better performance.

> The one thing I want for my PERFECT randonneur bike doesn't exist. I have an ENVE Cross Disc fork that has been modified for mounting a fender and light. I wish each blade also had a pair of water bottle bosses AND the ENVE factory finish including decals. Feel free to let ENVE know you want one too. :)

So you want the carbon fork that now comes standard on the titanium salsa fargo and perhaps other salsas. three mount holes for watter bottle cages or other accessories. I want this on my road bike too. i have predecessors in aluminum and cromoly, but not the carbon yet and not on my road/rando bike.

I can say this i love mounting wb cages on my front fork. so natural and you can mount them high or low. i mount mine low to accomidate bigger bottles. This leaves the main triangle for a full frame bag, tangle or anything else i want from touring to ultraendurance to randoneering.

in summary i think we mostly agree on things. while i wouldn't call the differences splitting hairs, i.e. electronic and hydraulic, i would say they're grey zones where technology is changing fast.

-mike
flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2

>
> On Wednesday, November 5, 2014 8:04:31 PM UTC-6, James Halay wrote:
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am a 6' 2", 210 pound 62 year old randonneur who is contemplating a new bike. My pedigree includes multiple BAM's (Bike Across Missouri) BMB, PBP and the High Country 1200 last summer. I am currently riding a 2011 carbon fiber Specialized Roubaix with Sram Red components and 32 spoke Mavic CXP 22 wheels with dynamo. My luggage is a seat post mounted Detour bag and a top tube lunch bag. The weight is about 19 pounds outfitted for randonneuring and 17 pounds with Mavic Krysrium SL wheels and no lights/bags.
>>
>> The good things about this bike are:
>>
>> 1. Compliant ride, low vibration transmission to hands and feet
>> 2. Suitable geometry, no steering or handling issues
>> 3. Fairly light weight
>> 4. Stiff where it is supposed to be stiff for maximum efficiency
>> 5. Sram Red components
>>
>> Living in Utah I ride up and down a lot of hills and in the past three years I have had two tire/tube blow outs due to overheating rims upon descending long steep hills. So, the new bike MUST have disc brakes and I will also require eyelets for a rack and real fenders, we had a lot of rain during our 2014 brevet series and the High Country.
>>
>> I have identified two bikes that may suit my requirements, the Trek Domane and the Volagi Licio. The Domane only comes with Shimano which makes it more expensive to buy the bare frame and build it up myself with Sram components. I will be visiting the Volagi headquarters in Ogden, Utah tomorrow for a test ride and it comes custom with just about any components I specify.
>>
>> So dear friends, I have all winter to purchase the PERFECT randonneur bike, and there are many small builders / brands out there to choose from, what is your opinion of the perfect bike for me? And why?
>>
>> Jim Halay, RUSA 066
>> Eden, Utah
>

[AKThomas]

Wound Up will custom make a carbon fork in pretty much any configuration you desire.

[NickBull]

I don't see much about this on their website but curious if you know whether they can build a fork with ~64mm offset, cantilever studs placed for 650B rims, clearance for 650Bx42 tires with fenders, eyelets for the fenders to mount to, and mid-fork eyelets for front rack mounting?

Thanks,

Nick

[AKThomas]

Send them an email and ask.  I just had them make a custom fork for my new rando frame (disc brake, fender eyelets, dimensions specced by the framebuilder), and they were very responsive and accommodating.  Not cheap, but exactly what I wanted.  And it is stiff, light and just seems really well constructed.

[Paul Toigo]

Wound Up told me they won't put mid-leg eyelets on their forks. :(

[Craig Robertson]

They (Wound Up) spec the load limit for the optional fender mount on the bottom of a fork at 15 pounds.  I asked recently.  I had a list of questions.  They no longer make caliper mount forks for tandems.  

They will make forks with both disk and canti mounts.  Tandem forks only are available in 45 and 50mm rakes.  

Craig

--

[dougm]

I highly recommend the Calfee Adventure if you can afford it. Both the 700 c and 650 Tetra options are fantastic. I have used a Calfee Adventure on the following brevets with great success ( zero flat tires too ):

1001 Miglia 1600 k
Madrid Gijon Madrid 1200 k
Giro DRM ( Italy ) 2200 k
Natchez Trace 1500 k

The Calfee Adventure 650 b with 42 mm tire option is a very mean machine which might be your best bet. Give Mike Moore at Calfee a call if you are interested. I can't say enough good things about the Calfee Tetra Adventure.

[AKThomas]

Now I need to know what kind of tires you are running--6500 kms with no flats!

[dougm]

Continental Grand Prix Four Seasons 28 mm. I start every 1200 or greater brevet with brand new or essentially new tires. However, they were mounted on HED Belgium (23 mm) or Belgium Pus ( 25 mm) rims and run with reduced tire pressure. About 70 PSI for the Belgium Plus and I weigh 165-170 lbs. I went to 80 PSI on the 23 mm rims on the 1001 Miglia 1600 k in 2012 but I did not pump the tires up once during the entire 134 hr 37 min brevet. All of the other events were with the Belgium Plus 25 mm rims.

Part of it is luck but it seems like the lower pressure on wider rims and good tires are also a factor. I did get a flat on a 1000 k earlier this year due to goatheads in Eastern WA but on my 1200 k or greater events I have been flat free so far. Good roads are a plus too!

[Larry Parker]

I posted this question elsewhere, but I am still looking for a solution . . .

 

The questions: 1) Mavic Cosmic wheels have a loose eyelet. Take the spoke
and nipple off, and that eyelet falls down in the rim. Is there a way to get
them out of the rim? I am not having any luck!

2) If the rim is a lost cause, can anybody recommend a comparable rim to
replace it with? It would be REALLY nice to find a rim with the same ERD so
I could reuse the same spokes, and black, so it goes with the front. Is
that too much to hope for?


How I got into this predicament: :-(
 I picked up a used Litespeed, from the Lynskey era. I like it, but it came with aerospoked Mavic Cosmic wheels. I wouldn't have bought them myself, but it wasn't a big deal and they looked modern and 'fast'! But they didn't want to stay straight or round. I have had to true them, especially the rear one, way too often. It developed enough "hop" on one ride that my tire started rubbing the brake bridge. I though I was just worn out the last few miles before I figured this out! Anyway, I built a set of
"traditional" wheels that seem to be working fine, and I thought I would rebuild the Cosmic rear, and if it worked I would use it for our local weekly time trials next summer, just for fun. I loosened all the spokes then started pulling the nipples off. after about 4 or 5 as I rotated the wheel, things were falling and pinging inside the rim. It turns out there is a loose 'eyelet' that neither comes out with the nipple nor stays put, and it is not visible when you just look at the built wheel. I thought they were built without eyelets . . .

 So, I am asking for advice!

Short of all that, anybody want to buy a nice Cosmic front wheel, rear hub and spokes? I might even throw in a rattling rim. . .

Larry Parker

[ripva...@gmail.com]

I'm about your size and just a little younger and I recently built my almost perfect randonneuring bike having nearly identical criteria as yours.  Here is an outlier suggestion to consider.......a Magnesium frame

 

Having owned carbon framed racing bikes since the 80's (starting with a Vitus Carbonne 9), I wanted something comfortable, stable, and unbreakable.  I very strongly considered a custom steel frame from S3 or OX Platinum.  I also initially considered the Domane and Volagi. I knew the new bike probably had to be custom given my long femurs and inability to position properly on most stock bikes even with an offset seatpost and slamming the saddle all the way back. I researched materials mostly to consider Ti and ALu as a comparision to steel which I planned to go with.  I found that Magnesium is the best vibration dampening material to make a bike frame.  Pinnarello made a Mg frame that is still legendary if you can find one.  I contacted Lennard Zinn and as a tall rider, he predicted what fit issues I have had over the years, so given I wanted MG and he understood my fit needs although rando bikes are not his bread and butter, Lennard designed me a Mg "touring frame" and frankly it rolls over broke pavement like melted butter especially with 32 mm Compass Extra Leger tires doing their part and also the Specialiized Cobble Getter seatpost with a Berthoud saddle.  Chip seal is so much more muted compared to my old carbon framed cross bike, which I rode today for the first time in months and let's just say  that today I was more aware of bumps on my training route.  Fit is excellent of course.  Front wheel does not come off the ground even on the steepest climbs.  Weight is centered over the bike.  Anyway, fit can be tough for a big rider.  Oh also, SRAM Red shifters and derailleurs for me, too.  Rotor Q Rings in 46 and 34 chainrings.  Lightning Carbon 200mm crank.  The front bag is not a significant concern so the low trail discussion was not part of my decision.  High stability was a primary consideration and it is bombproof.  I also wanted to be able to easily ride no hands at 12 mph.    Loong chainstays and long wheelbase.....definately not a Crit bike.   Zinn tried to convince me of the merits to disk brakes.  I wanted regular side pulls and that is what I got.    Only drawback is not being able to have eyelets for a rear rack on a Mg bike. So, it is P clamps on the back seatstay if or when I fender it up.  Wound up makes a fork for disks and also they will do eyelets.   I put an Enve fork on it but am strongly considering a wound up replacement as the Enve is too stiff.  My magnesium frame is a lot heavier than carbon but a touch less than say a 531 frame but probably on par with heat treated steel like S3 or OX platinum.   No idea what it weighs all built up....maybe 17-18 pounds.  It is a big bike, I am 6'3''.......probably at least 25-27 pounds carring my full rando garb and two water bottles.

 

BTW  I crossed the Domane off because it could not handle 28mm tires with fenders and I questioned if it would even handle 28mm without fender.  I do not like internally routed cables and I deplore Trek's stupid BB90 BB shell....seriously, you need to glue/bond the bearings into the shell and if you are lucky, they won't creak too often.

 

I had no chance to ride the Volagi but the seat stay, top tub, seat tube juncture look a bit stressed to my eye.  On the plus side, it took fenders and big tires but it also came with disk brakes, which I did not want.  It also had internal cable routing, which I did not want.  Their SRAM RED equipped Liscio with hydaulic brakes is not excessive and maybe good value all considered but $5500 is also not cheap.  For that kind of coin, I decided to go custom especially since I had so many bike parts in my possession to dangle on it.  Sounds like you also have good components.  Why not get a custom frame?

 

My second choice was to have a frame build by Rodriguez up in Seattle. 

 

In the end I am most happy with the fit and I do wonder how steel would have been in a similar configuration (tires mostly).    N+1?

[Greg]

bike tests in the back issues of Bicycle Quarterly. Then you can make your own decision. See

http://www.bikequarterly.com/test_bikes.html

My friends read the reviews of bikes I own from that list, and they told me the decision was that I'm probably not having any fun on my bikes.

Crap.

;) :)

-Greg

[Randon Nerd]

Greg - same here...but until I can get in shape to ride my 1971 Cinelli SC, I'll get by with my Ottrott...or Bob Jackson, Bike Friday, or...  

Willie