Using dynamo power to charge devices.

[Ronald Long]

While I'm delighted with my current light (B&M IQ-X), it doesn't do anything to support using the dynamo during the day to charge devices.

Wondering if folks have solutions that they're happy with (up to and including the SineWave Beacon, which appears to be an "all-in-one" solution.). Igaro seems to be another top contender...

thanks!

ronald

[Bill Gobie]

I use a Sinewave Revolution to power my gps. I've also used it to charge my phone. Works great.

The drawback I see to the Beacon is it does not have the nicely shaped road-appropriate beam of German headlights. 

An interesting interaction I've seen with the Revolution and my Edelux headlight is below a certain slow climbing speed the headlight becomes brighter. Speed up a bit and the headlight dims. My guess is above the critical speed the hub supplies enough voltage for the Revolution to send power to the gps, diverting power from the headlight. The solution is to unplug the gps. And above 8 mph or so the headlight is always perfectly bright. 

Bill

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[Peter J Leiss]

Hi all,

I use the Sinewave Reactor Top Cap and it functions well to charge my GPS. The only glitch is that below a certain speed I think 15 kph the GPS will exit charging mode so I charge up a small rechargeable battery pack and use that when the Gps runs down. I have the Edulx headlight so the light pattern is good. I echo the concern about the light pattern from the Beacon

Sinewave Reactor

Peter

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[Bill Gobie]

Probably the gps's charging behavior depends on the particular unit. My experience is with a Wahoo Elemnt Bolt and Roam. Both charge up pretty quickly from the Sinewave. The Bolt can run 10-11 hrs on its battery, the Roam probably longer. I'm not concerned about charging stopping at low speed. For those devices the speed at which charging stops is well below 15 kph.

Bill

[Bill Taylor]

Hi Ronald,

I’ve very little experience using my charging setup, that consists of a B&M ‘E-work’ and B&M cache battery.  

I’ll have to read through the instructions again, but am still bewildered by the settings on the charging device, the ‘E-work’, and how that affects the charge in the cache battery?  

If I reset the 'E-work’ to a lower setting, will the battery charge coming out of the cache battery also maintain the electrical results from the altered setting?

I’ve not used my setup in a long time, but remember from the last time I used it that the charging light on the battery was on, indicating that the charger was effectively charging the cache battery.

To make matters simpler, the B&M ‘USB work’ would probably be simpler solution, almost idiot proof - for those really long rides when fatigue can be an issue.

But I chose the ‘E-work’ from B&M because it seems more versatile to me.

Pleased to say, nothing’s "blown up" for me since getting this charging setup.

Cheers,

Bill

[Ronald Long]

With the Sinewave products, do you connect it to the dynamo hub in parallel with the lights, and just unplug devices from the Sinewave when you need full power going to the lights?

Do either of you use a “pass through” battery?

Appreciate all of your experience and willingness to take time to share.

ronald

[Bill Gobie]

The Sinewave Revolution connects in parallel with the lights. I use Schmidt piggyback hub connectors on the headlight cable, and the Sinewave plugs onto the piggybacks. Peter White suggests putting the piggyback connectors on the converter. Then you can move the converter to different bikes without changing all your headlight connectors.

Yes, for full power to the lights just unplug whatever device from the Sinewave. You don't have to disconnect the Sinewave from the hub.

As for charging "devices," plural, keep in mind a SON28's nominal maximum output is 6W at normal riding speeds. A SONdelux in a ~700c wheel is weaker. I don't know about other brands. The Revolution can output 5W, so it basically matches a SON28's capabilities. To charge up a phone during the day you will probably want the headlight off to maximise power to the phone. Your power input to the hub will be about 10W, which is enough to feel. (Those of us who used to run twin E6 halogens remember feeling the resistance when switching on the secondary.) All these power figures are for pure resistive loads. I've seen some intriguing data indicating LED lights and electronic devices interact differently with various hubs. The weeds grow thick around this topic.

I guess some devices require steady power, so for those you would want a pass-through battery. 

Bill

[Paul Toigo]

-1 on the Sinewave Beacon for it's symmetrical beam.

I too have a B&M IQ-X light and am quite pleased with it's beam pattern. Via hub piggyback connectors, I have a Sinewave Revolution in parallel to the light for charging a Garmin Charge Power Pack (i.e. cache battery). It is coupled to a Garmin Edge 1030 that, as a result, is fully charged by sunset. Similarly, I have the Power Pack USB out connected to a Garmin Edge 830 that will also be fully charged by sunset. When I bunk for the night, I charge my cellular with what's left in the Power Pack. When needed, I charge the Di2 battery (and not the Edge 830), all the while riding, from the Power Pack too.

However, I have found the switch on the IQ-X to be less than perfect. Therefore, I'm going to revise the wiring to use Schmidt coax connectors for definitive switching of the hub power to the IQ-X and Revolution.

Paul Toigo

[mickeg]

I use a Sinewave Revolution. 

Confirming what others have said, you wire the light and Sinewave in parallel.  When you want max power into the Sinewave, turn off the light.  When you want the lights on, you do not need to unplug the Sinewave from the wiring.  No other plugging/unplugging or switches is needed. 

My GPS (a non-cycling model) does not play well with the Sinewave directly.  I need to run the power from the Sinewave into a battery pack that functions as a pass through cache battery, then I can plug my GPS into that battery pack.  Most battery packs do not accept a charge and also charge devices simultaneously (pass through cache battery), I use one that does.  I use a larger powerbank for that purpose, I bought it for touring so it supplies much more power than just my GPS, larger than you would need or want for brevets.

I generally tell people that they should assume they will get no charging out of their Sinewave (or other charger) when their lights are on, but I was surprised that I got some power out of the Sinewave.

My lighting is a B&M IQ-XS and have used a Secula but now am using a Spanninga Pixio for taillight.  With the Secula and IQ-XS turned off, during an exercise ride on flat ground I averaged about 2.52 watts coming out of the Sinewave (about half an amp), and into my powerbank.  That is only measured while rolling, not while stopped at stop lights, etc.  And while riding (again, flat ground) measured during an exercise ride 0.60 watts out of the Sinewave with both my IQ-XS and Secula turned on. So, as a rule of thumb, on flat ground my Sinewave only produced one quarter as much power with lights on as with lights off.  Both of these tests were a bit over an hour.

I can't tell if my lights are any dimmer or not if I have plugged anything into the Sinewave.  But since I expect so little power out of the Sinewave when the lights are on, I usually unplug the USB cable when the lights are on.  Perhaps my standlight charges up better when not using the Sinewave to charge anything if more power is available to the lights?

I bought the Sinewave for touring, I think it is the best for waterproofness of all options, but it lacks any form of pass through cache battery, so when you stop, power out of it will stop.

I assume your IQ-X draws more power than my IQ-XS because it is a brighter light, so maybe you would get less power out of the Sinewave when the light is on than I do. 

And my measurements were on fairly flat ground, not intermittently going slow and then going fast up and down hills.  Where I measured 2.52 watts (lights off) on fairly flat ground, I would assume on more uneven ground with fluctuating speeds to get no more than 2 watts on average, maybe even less.  Practically speaking, I assume I am getting zero power out of the Sinewave when I am using my granny chainring on my triple crank up steeper hills.

I did these measurements with a SP PV-8 hub, 700c wheel.

[Eric Nichols]

I've got a Sinewave Revolution on my rando bike, and previously used a B&M Luxos U (the kind with the built-in USB charger). However, I almost never use them. Here's why:

• The intermittency of the charge, as you start and stop the bike, or fall below a critical speed, means that it's useful to have pass-thru battery to provide a steady charge to your accessories.  Some models of GPS don't like intermittent power and can do irritating things, like turn off or stop recording. 
• At night, lights demand enough power that there is little excess available for charging purposes.  
• A typical SON hub feeding a Sinewave Revolution at typical speeds only generates about 500 mA at 5 volts. For comparison, that's about half the power of a small iPhone charger. So it takes about twice as long to charge a phone from your hub as it does from a wall socket. That's during the daylight, when no power is needed for lights. 
• The need to carry a USB battery makes charging from the generator hub all but unnecessary during brevets.  A relatively compact and inexpensive USB battery will keep a GPS and phone alive for several days, enough time to complete a 1200k.  Another battery in your bike bag or drop bag provides extra insurance. Using a wall charger during sleep stops is yet another back-up strategy.    

So for me, the Sinewave has become a tertiary backup that hardly ever gets used.  Where it becomes more useful is during off-the-grid extended tours.  Once you get beyond a few days, you can trade an extra-large battery for a smaller battery plus a generator-powered charger. 

Eric

[Eric Keller]

Since this is a randonneuring list I agree with Eric Nichols, use a battery.  I'm not even sure I need a hub charger for bikepacking.  My Luxos U was pretty useless as a charger, even though it has a small cache battery.  In Pennsylvania, where I do most  of my rando rides, it's not unusual to have long stretches of uphill.  The road that goes by my house climbs for 50 miles, for example. It was the second biggest climb on the Endless Mountains 1240k, which didn't cover the full length of the climb on the road.

Eric Keller

Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

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[Tim Foon Feldman]

I have recently installed a Sinewave Revolution to charge devices. Short term testing with a Google Pixel 2, Wahoo Elmnt Bolt and Bontrager Flare lights with the Revolution powered by a SONdelux hub have had good results including some testing while also driving a Edelux headlight wired in parallel. My immediate use case is for a long self-supported tour. Including the Revolution on brevets might allow a net improvement by changing a heavy "power bank" battery for a very light one or none at all.

I forwarded this thread and also posed some general questions to David Dean, owner and electrical engineer, Sinewave Cycles (in...@sinewave.com). His replies are posted here with permission.

TFF:

There are a few that use a smartphone for navigation and not a GPS such as a Garmin or Wahoo. Those folks need to keep their phone up for, say, 8 hours on the shortest 200km brevets and even longer on the other distances, and a dyno-powered USB charger is a great solution.

There are always general (or particular) questions about:

- How much power does the USB charger provide, and thus, how quickly will a rechargeable device recharge? (What version of the USB standard does the charger comply with?)

- At what speed does its output turn on and off?

- How much drag results from charging a USB-powered or -rechargeable device?

- How does a loaded USB charger (powering a device) affect the brightness of a headlight (and taillight and, in general, powering of other devices off the dyno)?

- What devices are compatible with being plugged in while being used, particularly with intermittent power being supplied?

I realize that many of the answers involve the specification and behavior of other company's products, but to whatever extent you can provide insight, say in an FAQ on your website, it might be beneficial to you.

Beyond USB power, the rando community is more particular about headlight beam shaping than mtb and gravel; thus, the Beacon is more popular for mtb and gravel.

DD:

You are correct, most of these involve other products, which are not always fully specified or may change in future versions.

• The charger output can turn on any almost any speed (with no load you can measure 5V at working speed), but the question is really what is the minimum current that your device can draw, and at what speed can the Revolution provide that much current, which is really a question about how much power the dynamo can provide at any speed, which is also affected by different wheel sizes, etc, etc.  
• The drag is a question of the efficiency of the dynamo, which is not so clearly advertised, but I do know of some people who have done third-party testing.  Perhaps I can borrow and share some of those results.
• The effect of the charger and headlight on each other is really difficult to predict.  It includes all of the above variables, and also the device being charged and a time-based variable (if the light is able to pull away more power it may further limit the phone's ability to draw current, if the phone IS able to draw more current it may keep the light at a lower level.  Then you hit some speed threshold or the device changes the power it wants or the standlight capacitor finishes charging and then everything changes...
• It's been frustratingly difficult to declare which devices can charge directly and which should use a buffer battery.  Two quick stories to illustrate the difficulty:
• I had an iPhone 6s that charged very well at low speeds.  At some point I had the battery replaced and it no longer changed at low speeds.  So I could not say whether an iPhone 6s can charge directly or not, it depends on other factors that will vary from phone to phone.
• You are probably familiar with how some Garmin units will try to auto-shutdown when you come to a stop.  I've heard from at least one customer where the behavior only started after they performed a firmware update. 
• So, while it can seem like a cop-out, that's why I only recommend that customers test their setup and determine if they want to use a buffer battery or not.  Even by knowing the phone or GPS make and model I can't say for sure how it will behave.

I do understand that rando riders do prefer the German-style beam.  When I first started selling the Beacon I was very concerned with the round beam shape and assumed I would be quickly working on an asymmetric version.  But a pleasant surprise was that the majority of customers have been happy with the round beam.  I know there are some objections - rando, German road riders, etc - but it ended up being less pressing than I had expected.  I'd say I'd like to make a road-specific version at some point but I can't say I have a timeline for that.

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[Jacques Bilinski]

If you're tinkering with this stuff one or more 'USB power meters' are useful devices. They are available cheaply on places like ebay and amazon. You plug them in series between between a USB powered device and a USB power source and they measure various things including the total Energy used in a time period. In addition to the really cheap ones there are more expensive ones like the Klein Tools USB Digital Meter, USB-A (Type A) which is a little more solid and has the ability to store data. 

[Bill Gobie]

For maximum power output from a dynohub in a large wheel one should be using a hub intended for large wheels, particularly at lower speeds. The SONdelux is a rebadged SON20, adequate for powering an LED headlight at whatever sort-of-slow speed the German regulations dictate. It is intended to be driven about ~50% faster in a 406 wheel vs how rapidly a 622 wheel turns.

Bill

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[mickeg]

Tim, thanks for posting your questions and response from Sinewave.

Your question on hub drag, this article is almost a decade old but I think it still is one of the best summaries of several hubs.  It includes good drag and output info for several hubs at various speeds, both with and without a load.

https://www.cyclinguk.org/sites/default/files/document/migrated/publication/feature-hub-dynamos.pdf

You mention that you would like to use the Sinewave for a long self supported tour.  A bit over a year ago I wrote up my experiences and observations with trying to be electrically self sufficient on a five week bike tour at another forum.  Note that I chose not to use any dyno powered lighting on that tour, so it was all about charging and energy conservation.  Couple key points, make sure you use good cables and using a phone with a cold battery burns through the battery faster.

http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13696.0