Bar-end vs. Down-tube vs. STI; Friction vs. Indexed
RUSA2691
stems; others are welcome.
Now, if anyone were to take the time to try and talk me out of down-
tube, friction shifters, how would you go about it?
Thanks,
Paul Kramer
Peter Noris
But I do love bar-cons, and I use them in friction mode.
U.S.A. one brevet at a time"
Alabama, Colorado, Gainesville, Fl., Georgia, Massachusetts, Mississippi, New York, NW Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, British Columbia... more to come!
321-794-0500 cell
352-275-5888 home
Skype me at Peter.F.Noris
Yes, I know British Columbia is in Canada.
mbis...@pacbell.net
>Thanks,
>Paul Kramer
Stems - If you go threadless, then suggest leave room on the steerer tube
for the maximum safe allowable spacers. Also, hopefully it's size 1 1/8"
threadless for best ease of compatibility.
Shifters - Handlebar bag utility seems to be a connected topic here for
rando. Some people like handlebar bags, some like little bags on a rack over
the front wheel, some just go with panniers and some have no luggage forward
of the house. It would be good to know your front end luggage plan going in
when considering shifters. That said, pretty much most all shifters could be
made to work well in almost any setup.
Luv STI mucho.
Regards!
Mike
Larry Powers
The one interesting thing I have read about friction shifting is that the ramps on cassette cogs and the floating jockey wheel on derailleurs do not provide the same type of feed back as older gear did so it is not as precise when friction shifting. I have tried friction shifting my rear gears with my bar end shifters and while it was OK I went back to indexing. Indexing works so well in the rear I don't see a reason not to use it.
My touring bike is set up with 7 speed Suntour gear and friction shifting is all I have on that bike.
Larry Powers
"just when you think that you've been gyped
the bearded lady comes and does a double back flip" - John Hiatt
Jim Bronson
which is my primary brevet bike. On my other bike I use 105 STI. I
really like the bar-ends for most purposes, however the STI is
probably a little better in a fast paceline. But all being said the
reach is not that far and after an initial adjustment period you can
shift without much distraction.
The bar-end shifters seem to require less fiddling around with than do
the STI shifters to stay in perfect adjustment. However, we are also
talking about newer Campy Chorus (only the shifters and casette are 9
speed, rest of the parts are new 10 speed) vs well worn 105 parts, so
I don't know if that is a fair comparison.
One nice thing the bar ends offer is non-indexed front shifting.
Whoever had the great idea for indexed front shifting should be lashed
with a wet noodle.
--
I ride my bike, to ride my bike.
Michel Gagnon
I would suggest that you install downtube braze-ons AND use whatever
shifters you are comfortable with.
I use bar-end shifters and route my cables under the bar tape. With that
setup, the typical cable stops welded on the headtube tends to break
easily, whereas I get a better curve with downtube braze-ons.
My second favourite type of shifters is downtube shifters. However, on
my old bike with clamp on shifters, I install the shifters very close to
the headtube, because I find that position to be more natural. So if you
have a preferred position, make sure you specify it.
BTW, my major "beef" with downtube shifters come with the tandem and
especially the trailercycle. I love to keep both hands on the bars at
all time when I pilot the long long bike with both children, especially
in traffic or on gravel roads. Riding solo on asphalt, it doesn't matter
anymore.
--
Michel Gagnon
Montréal (Québec, Canada)
Bengt-Olaf.
because of failure in the right (rear) shifter after about 5000 miles.
I bought DA because of some information in rec.bicycle.tech that said
that 105+Ultegra were essentially identical, but DA had higher-quality
internals.
Now the trim mechanism of the left (front) shift in the replacement DA
has failed :-) That's ok as I don't use that bike much any more, still
a bit disappointing. On my newer bike the trim in left shift has
become less supple to operate over the course of 1 year. On both bikes
the right shifter continues to operate perfectly.
I also found that adjusting the front derailleur is fickle as there is
usually one sprocket in the rear where the chainwheel rubs against
the derailleur. (I run a triple.)
For these reasons, I have installed a bar-end shifter for the front.
However, I have not yet hooked it up as I am still a bit concerned
about hitting it with my knee during climbing. However, so far this
has not been a real issue and I will probably switch over to the bar-
end in the spring or when the shifter fails ... whatever happens
first.
Hope that helps.
Bengt-Olaf.
Tim McNamara
I'd be the wrong person to ask, given that I started out with friction
down tube shifters, "upgraded" to STI in 1992 and then to Ergo in 1994
and to indexed bar-ends when I started racing 'cross in 1995... and then
back to friction down tube shifters on all my bikes except the 3 speed
and the tandem in the last four years. I figured out that I just like
down tube shifters better now that I don't race.
Part of the attraction was that down tube shifters markedly simplify
packing a bike into a case to take to France.
DrCodfish
OK, I think I see where this is going. What's next; Canti vs Single
pivot vs Dual Pivot? H-bar bag vs Trunk Rack vs Panniers?
In your previous post you mentioned that you were 'ordering a new
frame'. I wasn't sure if you meant a stock or 'custom w/options'
frame. I took delivery of a new bike (custom built frame) earlier
this year. I spent about 2 and a half years making the decisions you
are working through here. My experience really caused me to have to
'think all the things together' as I came to the conclusion early on
that at least for my new bike "everything is connected to
everything".
I guess that is a very simplistic way of realizing that I wanted more
of a 'constructeur' bike than a modern bike. But I didn't really want
a constructeur bike. I wanted a bike that took advantage of all the
advances in modern bike and component design materials and technology
but that brought these things together in a way that they all
complemented each other. For example, the choice of brakes seemed to
influence the choice of brake levers. The brakes and fork were
significantly affected by the wheels and tires I wanted. The luggage
was influenced significantly by how much weight and volume of 'stuff"
I wanted to LIMIT myself to. (yes, I need to set limits for myself).
This in turn weighed heavily (pun intended) on the design of the fork,
which went back to the brakes, fenders, etc etc.
Not sure WHEN you are ordering this frame, but I hope it is AFTER you
have settled the complete series of questions you are working
through. You may be a more effective (meaning faster, more sure, more
decisive) decision maker than me and if so you will probably get to
riding a lot sooner than I did. It was such a big decision for me (I
don't have the money for a 'redo' if this does not work out) that, as
I said it took me a lot of time. But really, I wasn't in such a big
hurry, I was saving my lunch money as I was dreaming up choices.
I have ended up with a bike I am very satisfied with. It does not
look like a go fast bike, but then I don't think it looks like a 1956
Rene Herse either. I actually had to work on the designer to make
sure his concern for the bikes 'looks' were subordinated to my ideas
about the performance aspects. Looks was pretty low down on my list
of criteria. It was a fairly smooth process, our differences were
minor and some of the things that he incorporated actually made the
bike better than it would have been otherwise (I think).
It got me through PBP with less pain and suffering than I experienced
on any of my previous 1200, or 1000K events. Everything worked about
as I had hoped it would. The front luggage rack, the fork, the brakes,
the fenders the Campy ergo shifters, all worked together very well.
The more I ride this bike, the more I like it. I expect to get to
some static level of happiness somewhere down the way, but I'm not
there yet. And funny thing, though I am very happy with it's
function, it turns out that the way it looks is pretty pleasing to me
also. There is no 'perfect' rando bike, but there could be many, many
perfect rando bikes; One for each rando rider. It's all about your
preferences.
I think what I am saying here is that the 'concept' of a constructeur
bike, that all the things you want on or about the bike ought to be
'integrated' is more likely to produce a bike that you are less likely
to have to 'retrofit'. In my time I have cobbled together some
effective but really ugly looking rides I knew thy were ugly but
didn't much care. I was more concearned about the effectiveness of my
home brewed solutions. And though many of those Rube Goldberg
specials 'worked' many of them didn't work all that well. They may
have solved a problem, but many of those 'solutions' also created some
additional or different problems.
I hope you are looking at your bike this way. Whether it is a stock
or custom frame, I think you will be best served if you ask not only
"which is better, Canti's or dual pivots?" but also ask, "how will
these brakes work best with my preferred method of carrying an 'on
bike' load"? Given your recent posts I suspect you probably are
thinking this way, but I can't really be sure given the questions you
are asking.
Lynne Fitz
not return to downtube shifters. Ever. For me, I maintain better
control of the bike with the bar-ends or brifters. If I need to bail,
I don't want to have to do big hand movements at the same time.
mark
Record friction shifters shift so smoothly I don't ever want to get
rid of them (but I do have a modern Chorus derailleur). I have these
on my 1988 Marinoni.
Bar-end friction shifters: easy to use, dependable, great for touring
and commuting where I want to keep both hands on the bars for various
reasons. No interference with handlebar bag. I have these on my
Rivendell tourer which has drop bars and my MB-3 (sometime mountain
bike, sometime winter commute bike) which has moustache bars.
Ergo-Power/Campy Chorus: great for those Walter Mitty moments when I
pretend that I am a racer and am actually going fast. Fairly
dependable, but I have to replace the cables and housing more often
than on the friction set-ups in order to maintain accurate shifting.
Cables don't interfere w/ a handlebar bag and Campy is now available
in a wider gear range than was the case long ago. I have this setup on
my 2001 Marinoni Piuma. STI brifters might get in the way of a
handlebar bag.
Different shifters for different circumstances, no single real
answer.
commuterDude
I have to admit, I love options --
I started out riding with stem-mounted friction shifters on my old
Schwinn Varsity way back when, and I think that kinda spoils a rider
for new-tech sometimes.
I personally feel a connection to the way friction shifting feels, and
the ability to trim on the fly.
When I returned to cycling in 1998, STI was just taking off and had
trickled down into the affordable range. So, it became what I used --
and yes, in a fast paceline or other
touch-n-go situation, being able to shift without moving my hands from
the hoods is really handy --- but on brevet I find that less useful.
At a recent UMCA event, a good friend started having left-hand wrist
issues from shifting from the small to the big ring with Ultegra STI
-- just the repetitive (and arguably awkward) motion of pushing that
lever over and over took its toll. He's considering bar-ends, at
least for the front rings.
For me, a matter of replacement cost, complexity, and seeing more than
a few fail for other riders on brevet, I've "regressed" back to
friction bar-ends. The stem shifter, no love lost there. THAT is
really old-school. For me, the bar-ends are great. I do agree, tho,
that some feedback is missing with the newer cassettes -- you can be
half-on a cog in the back, and not "feel" it until you maybe stand on
the pedals. It's hard to trim by feel and sound with wind noise in
your ears, etc. But, in friction mode, it's terrific - even though
some (including me) would argue that the loud CLICK between shifts
kinda kills the zen of the ride sometimes.
Back in Friction mode: a recent rear wheel failure was a no-brainer:
I swapped in my spare rear wheel with 8-speed cassette and didn't have
to adjust a thing. The only limitation would be that I can't swap in
someone's 10-speed rear wheel, because of chain limitations with my 9-
speed system -- but anything backwards works fine in a pinch. When my
other wheel is repaired, the reverse is just as easy - toss it in the
dropouts, and move on down the road.
(ok, to be fair, this is assuming b-tension adjustments aren't
neccessary if the spare wheel has a larger final cog - but hey...)
Finally, a recent acquisition provides a winter project, and it came
with it's original Shimano 600 downtube shifters. Friction.
Ahhhh.....
Now, being used to bar-ends this creates a problem. Do I keep the
downtubes on there, or do I invest in some pods to create the bar-ends
that I'm used to?
Time will tell -- I'll give it a go. As a primer, I've been reaching
down to touch the cable stops on the downtube of my bar-end equipped
bike, just to see how it would feel, and it's okay.
One thing for sure, it would make me shift a lot less I imagine.
And finally, in a fast paceline, I never find bar-ends to be a
detriment. I can either keep up, or I can't. The only time it ever
comes up as an issue is while standing during a climb. Should the
need to shift arise, it does take a few extra steps. But, again to
the rando-vibe, the only thing I'm usually racing up a hill is the
clock.
I tend to classify that aspect of STI levers in the same realm as
carbon wheels and shaving 50 grams off of a seatpost: I'm personally
not at a fitness level where being able to shift X tenth's of a second
faster would make or break anything. Moving my hands around to help
stave off numbness is far better than keeping my hands in one place
for a longer period of time and being able to shift faster.
Of course, when I ride the single speed, none of this matters -- and I
know more than a few people are just laughing their guts out at this
thread.
For some of them, however, "shifting" requires stopping and removing
or loosening the rear wheel -- so in that sense bar-end shifters are
REALLY high-tech! ;) ;)
I vote for foot-actuated front derailluers to make a comeback.
(snicker)
Keith "All you need is eighteen" Gates
littlecircles :: mikeb
a good ole post that will go on for a long long time.
:)
My personal preference?
Ergolever for the rear, bar end for the front.
But I'll have to wear out my Ergo's first before I make the switch
permanent.
...but I'm also running Campy 10spd...
with full fenders, dyno lights, on a Ti bike, with a Brooks! ;)
...and I went with the 'Record' level Ergos, mainly because carbon
doesn't get cold.
Did I cover all the hot button topics?
When the Surly goes into touring mode and I add gears to it I'll put
on the bar-ends.
Cheap and effective.
In friction I'll be able to mismatch components that I have lying
around from unbuilt projects.
I rode downtubes for the first time in forever awhile back. Couldn't
say I would go there again.
Robert Magyar
bar-end or down-tube shifters don't have any parts that will suddenly break or wear out.
if you need to replace a broken cable, it can be done the quickest with down-tube shifters as they have the least routing.
while I know several riders who ended up have neurological problems in their fingers after riding a 1200K with STI style shifters, I haven't heard any bar-end or down-tube users saying the same.
Bob
> From: pskr...@yahoo.com
> To: ran...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [Randon] Bar-end vs. Down-tube vs. STI; Friction vs. Indexed
> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 12:00:52 -0700
>
>
Emily O'Brien
To me, this argument seems like a bit of a red herring; if you're having a bike built for brevets and presumably customizing it substantially, why would you ever use a design that isn't going to be stable enough to take your hands off the bars for the amount of time it takes to operate downtube shifters? Can you imagine riding a 600k on a bike that required so much effort from both hands that the biggest reason for not using downtube shifters is that you can't afford to take one hand off the bars for two seconds from time to time? I certainly can't!
I could see riding a bike where I couldn't really ride no-hands very much or for very long, although I think I would suffer a lot more on a 1200k because of it. I've gotten very accustomed to doing a lot of things with both hands while riding (fishing in my bag, opening bars, removing my jacket, and I've even been known to re-apply chamois cream while pedalling) and being able to do that gives my hands, arms, shoulders, back, etc, a new position for a few minutes. My bike has pretty responsive handling, but not so twitchy that riding no hands is a problem even with a handlebar bag, so it's not an issue. I think it's a big part of the reason why I haven't had any hand problems after long rides. I think I would probably be okay if I could at least take one hand off. But riding brevets on a bike with touchy enough handling that downtube shifters would be problematic because of taking a hand off the bars would be miserable, regardless of the type of shifters.
So the hands-off-the-bars argument against downtube shifters would be moot as far as I'm concerned, because I'd never consider riding brevets on a bike that was so twitchy that it would be a problem. I can think of other arguments against downtube shifters, and I can think of arguments against the STI's I have on my geared bike (one of which needs replacing, which is one of those arguments). But handling characteristics of the bike has nothing to do with it, because handling stable enough to use downtube shifters has so many other benefits beyond shifter choice.
How much stability you personally need to comfortably remove one hand is another question. If you're a unicycle ace who can ride backwards while juggling with your eyes closed, make it with a six inch wheelbase, negative fork trail, and 10cm wide handlebars (yes, that's theoretically geometrically possible, but doesn't look much like a normal bike) and put the shifters under the bb shell if it makes you feel good.
Emily "Look Ma, no hands!" O'Brien
> -------Original Message-------
> From: Robert Magyar <bob_m...@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Randon] Re: Bar-end vs. Down-tube vs. STI; Friction vs. Indexed
> Sent: 03 Nov '07 01:57
>
> bar-end or down-tube shifters don't have any parts that will suddenly
> break or wear out.
> if you need to replace a broken cable, it can be done the quickest with
> down-tube shifters as they have the least routing.
> while I know several riders who ended up have neurological problems in
> their fingers after riding a 1200K with STI style shifters, I haven't
> heard any bar-end or down-tube users saying the same.
>
> Bob
>
>
> --------------------
Mark Wooldridge
> bar-end or down-tube shifters don't have any parts
> that will suddenly break or wear out.
> if you need to replace a broken cable, it can be
> done the quickest with down-tube shifters as they
> have the least routing.
> while I know several riders who ended up have
> neurological problems in their fingers after riding
> a 1200K with STI style shifters, I haven't heard any
> bar-end or down-tube users saying the same.
> Bob
I rode PBP in 1999 using downtube shifters, ending
with loss of feeling in parts of my hands and weakness
in my left hand. The effects lasted several weeks.
I then rode PBP in 2003 and 2007 using Campy
brake-lever shifters, ending with little or no hand
numbness (although I certainly did have other
ailments). Of course, I'd attribute much of this to a
better fitting bike rather than pointing to the
shifters.
To me the biggest difference between the two type of
shifters is more related to how I use them--with the
downtube shifters I didn't shift as often and tended
to ride more at slower cadences (with resultant speed
impacts) and have more problems with my knees on
longer events. I could have shifted just as often
with the downtube shifters, but simply didn't.
I have experienced the reduced mechanical reliability
with brake-lever shifters, however. My downtube
shifters lasted about 50,000 miles with one or two
preventive cable changes (and are still in sporadic
use by my son). My brake-lever shifters have been
rebuilt once, replaced once, and had two cable
failures at the right shifter during rides. This is
in about 30,000 miles.
All in all, I prefer the brake lever shifters but I am
much more watchful with regard to maintenance.
Mark W
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NickBull
desirability of stability in a brevet bike.
With respect to shifters: I'm currently using downtube shifters on
most of my bikes. After a brief stint with STI's that blew up, I
switched to bar-ends for a couple of years, but the short, stubby
little Shimano Dura-Ace bar end shifters start to hurt my hands
somewhere around the 400K point. The used Rambouillet that I bought
came with the nice, long Rivendell silver shifters. With 9-speed
cassettes, friction shifting takes a while to get "dialled in" but I
seldom miss shifts, nowadays. But after rebuilding and then crashing
an '86 Trek 400, and then having a friend give me his '84 Trek 400
with downtube shifters to replace it, I was just too tired of bike
repairs to replace them with bar-ends. And after a week or two, I
decided I really liked the downtube shifters. They're very simple,
and because they're so direct the shifting is slightly quicker than
with bar-ends. In my normal position, I hardly have to move my upper
body at all to reach them--they're right underhand when you drop your
arm. It's easy to trim the front derailleur at the same time as
you're shifting the rear. The long Dura-Ace levers feel nice in my
hands. They do make you move around a little more, which is nice.
Only negative: You can't shift while standing up on a hill. But this
is pretty-much true of bar-ends, too.
On Nov 2, 10:51 pm, "Emily O'Brien" <emilyonwhe...@emilysdomain.org>
wrote:
> Regardless of whether I may be considered competent to comment on a discussion of shifters for brevets, I have one thought about the "whole bike" argument that has been made a few times regarding the geometry of the bike as pertains to handling characteristics. The argument is that downtube shifters should not be combined with a bike whose handling is such that the rider can't afford to take one hand off the bars as often or for as long as is required for shifting, or that you shouldn't design a bike with ridiculously twitchy handling if you want to use downtube shifters.
>
> To me, this argument seems like a bit of a red herring; if you're having a bike built for brevets and presumably customizing it substantially, why would you ever use a design that isn't going to be stable enough to take your hands off the bars for the amount of time it takes to operate downtube shifters? Can you imagine riding a 600k on a bike that required so much effort from both hands that the biggest reason for not using downtube shifters is that you can't afford to take one hand off the bars for two seconds from time to time? I certainly can't!
>
> I could see riding a bike where I couldn't really ride no-hands very much or for very long, although I think I would suffer a lot more on a 1200k because of it. I've gotten very accustomed to doing a lot of things with both hands while riding (fishing in my bag, opening bars, removing my jacket, and I've even been known to re-apply chamois cream while pedalling) and being able to do that gives my hands, arms, shoulders, back, etc, a new position for a few minutes. My bike has pretty responsive handling, but not so twitchy that riding no hands is a problem even with a handlebar bag, so it's not an issue. I think it's a big part of the reason why I haven't had any hand problems after long rides. I think I would probably be okay if I could at least take one hand off. But riding brevets on a bike with touchy enough handling that downtube shifters would be problematic because of taking a hand off the bars would be miserable, regardless of the type of shifters.
>
> So the hands-off-the-bars argument against downtube shifters would be moot as far as I'm concerned, because I'd never consider riding brevets on a bike that was so twitchy that it would be a problem. I can think of other arguments against downtube shifters, and I can think of arguments against the STI's I have on my geared bike (one of which needs replacing, which is one of those arguments). But handling characteristics of the bike has nothing to do with it, because handling stable enough to use downtube shifters has so many other benefits beyond shifter choice.
>
> How much stability you personally need to comfortably remove one hand is another question. If you're a unicycle ace who can ride backwards while juggling with your eyes closed, make it with a six inch wheelbase, negative fork trail, and 10cm wide handlebars (yes, that's theoretically geometrically possible, but doesn't look much like a normal bike) and put the shifters under the bb shell if it makes you feel good.
>
> Emily "Look Ma, no hands!" O'Brien
>
> > -------Original Message-------
> > From: Robert Magyar <bob_mag...@hotmail.com>
> > Subject: [Randon] Re: Bar-end vs. Down-tube vs. STI; Friction vs. Indexed
> > Sent: 03 Nov '07 01:57
>
> > bar-end or down-tube shifters don't have any parts that will suddenly
> > break or wear out.
> > if you need to replace a broken cable, it can be done the quickest with
> > down-tube shifters as they have the least routing.
> > while I know several riders who ended up have neurological problems in
> > their fingers after riding a 1200K with STI style shifters, I haven't
> > heard any bar-end or down-tube users saying the same.
>
> > Bob
>
> > --------------------
>
cr...@rcn.com
> while I know several riders who ended up have neurological
> problems in their fingers after riding a 1200K with STI style
> shifters, I haven't heard any bar-end or down-tube users
> saying the same.
I had numbness on the tips of my left index and middle finger on PBP while riding a bike with bar-end shifters. Most of the feeling returned within three days of finishing PBP. It is certainly light damage compared to other reports but damage nonetheless.
I'd agree with Mark Wooldridge's theory that it's just as much about how often one's shifts than the type of shifters you have. I think, perhaps, that might be one unforeseen consequence of having a triple over a compact double on long rides. I'd tend to sit in my middle ring for most of the event, and wouldn't use my front derailleur as much on hills.
-- cris
(who likes friction shifting because he likes a bike that just works)