Staying Awake - not my strong point

[Lynne Fitz]

What are your strategies for staying awake?  The sun goes down and I start falling asleep.  I cannot even count the number of 10 minute nap breaks I took from about 2:30am until the sun came up at 6am during this past weekend's fleche.  I hate it.

I was eating caffeinated mints, caffeinated gels, some food (probably not quite enough), and I'd be good for awhile, and then I'd start nodding off.

Need something to try on this weekend's 400k...

Thanks,

Lynne F

[Crista Borras]

Chewing gum has always worked for me.

Crista Borras

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[Mike Sturgill]

Talking to someone works best for me.

[sekhem313]

I found that drowsiness improves with each long (400K+) ride that I've done.  I imagine part of that improvement is a fitness thing.  I've also trained for it by doing night riding on my own..  I don't rely on caffeine outside of getting started early in the morning.  Excess caffeine adds to stomach upset, has diminishing returns, adds to dehydration.  Most importantly, if I'm extremely fatigued and I'm crashing off of caffeine at the same time then the going gets really tough.    I found that making sure that I'm consuming quality protein on longer rides and getting some actual meals in (and not just relying on snacking on the bike) are really important in maintaining alertness.   key thing to remember..... this is just a bike ride...it's not worth risking your life.  The fatality at PBP was likely a rider who fell asleep on the bike. good luck   tammie --- On Tue, 5/7/13, Lynne Fitz <fitz...@comcast.net> wrote:

[Jan Heine]

I find that I get very sleepy when riding slowly. Keeping the pace up gets some adrenaline coursing, and I don't have any trouble staying awake.

Jan Heine
Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Dave Cramer]

It's quite time-consuming, and requires lots of planning, but I found that raising a small child is the best possible training for sleep deprivation. I've noticed a huge difference in how well I handle little or no sleep on long rides.

Dave :)

[Jim House - Custom Computer Solutions]

Gun has may positive effects

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/can-chewing-gum-before-a-test-improve-score/2012/04/02/gIQA0bGurS_blog.html

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddisalvo/2012/03/08/chew-yourself-a-better-brain/

 

I ALWAYS have gum and use it at night!

 

Jim House

Maumee, OH

[Theo Elliot Roffe]

Lynne,

It's not abnormal to get drowsy when riding at night.  Our Fleche team certainly had some sleepy moments, too. =)

I drink coffee (and whatever passes for coffee at gas stations) in the evening or at night on longer rides (not a lot, just a cup at a control or so).  This seems to have a mildy useful effect, but so does just having something warm to drink on a cold night. I avoid taking too much caffeine because it makes my heart feel too racy and that's not fun on a big ride.

More importantly, I try to sleep as much as possible in the week leading into a ride, which takes effort for a night owl like me.  I first came across this approach when reading about Chris Ragsdale's preparation for longer, sleepless rides (sorry, can't find the link right now).  It really does seem to work.  I'm not sure what it says about me that I needed to read about someone using sleep to feel well-rested before I tried it... ;-)

Talking to someone, eating, and that overall/cumulative night-riding-fitness (like Tammie was describing) all seem to help.

And simply taking a nap might be the best solution if you're really drowsy.  Though I'd rather take a 20 minute nap and feel more refreshed than take multiple shorter naps and feel drowsy between each one...

-Theo Roffe

Portland, OR

RUSA 5988

--

[Emily O'Brien]

I've found that aside from the obvious issue that darkness makes you sleepy and light perks you up, I've found that at night especially, a number of other things can manifest themselves as sleepiness before I feel them for what they really are. Not eating enough is one of them, definitely. Actually that's probably the biggest reason I don't chew gum because even though chewing gum helps a bit, it also makes me put off eating longer. Eating a snack is almost like chewing gum, only you get calories out of it. 

Another is cold. Cold doesn't make me feel sleepy other times, but on rides in the dark it makes me feel sleepy even before I feel cold. So it makes sense to dress warmer at night than I might for the same weather conditions during the day. I really notice it when I get to the tops of hills, because while I'm climbing I'll get warmer, wake up a bit, and of course drench myself in sweat. When I start going down, my heart rate drops because I'm not climbing, plus I'm softpedaling into the wind and I'm sweaty, and I can suddenly feel really sleepy even if I felt alert a moment ago while climbing. It would be nice if descending on a fixed gear helped, but it doesn't. 

Talking helps, but if I don't have anyone to talk to or have run out of things to say, I start reciting stuff: all the limericks I can remember, every song I know with lots of verses, whatever I can think of. Actually it drives Jake a little nuts, but if I'm alone it doesn't bother anyone. ;)

Emily

-----------------------------------

Dill Pickle

... gear for the extra mile

www.dillpicklegear.com

-----------------------------------

[Jan Heine]

At 2:19 PM -0400 5/7/13, Emily O'Brien wrote:

>I really notice it when I get to the tops of hills, because while
>I'm climbing I'll get warmer, wake up a bit, and of course drench
>myself in sweat. When I start going down, my heart rate drops
>because I'm not climbing, plus I'm softpedaling into the wind and
>I'm sweaty, and I can suddenly feel really sleepy even if I felt
>alert a moment ago while climbing. It would be nice if descending on
>a fixed gear helped, but it doesn't.

Emily brings up a good point. Downhills are the worst for feeling
sleepy. Around here, mountain passes can mean a downhill for half an
hour or more. If the descent has a lot of curves, it's fine, because
you stay alert. But long, wide-open descents are terrible at night.

When designing course, I try to have the downhills so they don't fall
in the early morning hours for the majority of riders. Sometimes that
is not possible, and during last year's Cascade 1200, I spent at
least 45 minutes sleeping by the roadside, despite having the goal of
finishing fast and being close to the finish. It's not worth risking
your life - when in doubt, take a nap!

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

--

[Marcello Napolitano]

Chewing beef jerky works well for me, at least until I get tired of it, which takes several hours if I have some nice, dry, flavorful jerky. I guess it is a strategy similar to chewing gum, except you get some protein and lots of salt out of it (and I like the flavor better)..

Last year I did the the 1001 Miglia in Italy, and lacking access to beef jerky I found that a steady diet of double cappuccino (made with two shots of espresso and lots of sugar) works wonders at night.

Marcello

2013/5/7 Lynne Fitz <fitz...@comcast.net>

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2013-05-07 at 20:42 +0100, Marcello Napolitano wrote:
> Chewing beef jerky works well for me, at least until I get tired of
> it, which takes several hours if I have some nice, dry, flavorful
> jerky. I guess it is a strategy similar to chewing gum, except you get
> some protein and lots of salt out of it (and I like the flavor
> better)..
>

Do you mean you chew, swallow and eat a stick of jerky over the course
of several hours; or do you mean you can chew a mouthful of jerky for
hours as though it was a plug of Red Man?

[Nigel]

>What are your strategies for staying awake?  The sun goes down and I start falling asleep.

 

Two things, 1. Having some protein with all the carbs seems to help when I am just yawining tired and

2. If the sleepies get really bad, I have a "coffee nap" It is scientficiall proven to do the most to wake a person up. It works like this, when you are really falling alepp tired, have a cup of coffee then immediately take a short nap. When you get up the caffeine has kicked in and the nap has cleared the mental fog. Here's a link to the science behind it: http://eprider.blogspot.com/2012/04/coffee-and-ditch-nap.html

[littlecirclesvt.com :: mike beganyi]

I agree with Dave.

Want to train your sleep deprivation, patience, and tolerance for the smallest things setting you off?

Small children are the ticket.

And, if you do want to train while actually riding - you'll likely be sleep deprived while doing it.

Bonus.

[Joshua]

A good conversation will make the time fly by.

[Don Bennett]

I actually thought of it the other way around - after my son was born,  the maximum level of sleep deprivation I reached felt equivalent to 800k into my first PBP.

[Susan Otcenas]

FWIW, here's my theory on calories....

 

At it's simplest, our body does 3 things with calories:

1) Feeds our muscles

2) Feeds our brains

3) Digests & processes our food.

 

When we need to do too much of one, the ability of our body to do another is compromised.

 

For example, if I eat a lot, then have to go climb a big hill, my body needs to send a lot of energy to my muscles to get me up the grade.  My body diverts resources away from the stomach, so digestion is compromised and the result is a stomach cramp or nausea.  And when one are really tired, the body may just reject the food entirely and throw it up, as I did so spectacularly in France. :-)

 

If you are sitting at home, and eat a big meal (say, Thanksgiving dinner and a generous portion of pie(s) afterwards...) what does your body crave?  Sleep!  It wants to use its resources to digest that huge load of food, so the inclination is to take a nice long nap after your meal while the stomach does it's job.

 

If you are riding along, already low on calories,  you are asking your body to both feed your muscles and your brains, but not providing it the resources to do both.   You either bonk  (stay awake but your body fails) or fall asleep (pedalling but your brain shuts down.)  Neither has a good result.

 

------------

 

I don't have too much trouble with drowsiness at night but when I *do* start to get sleepy, it's nearly always calorie related.  And before I get sleepy, I get cranky and start to feel negative about the ride, which fortunately I now (usually) recognize as that first sign of a calorie deficit that might shortly become critical.

 

I now have my gps set to beep a "Calorie Alert" at me every time it estimates I've worked through a set # of calories.   It's not an exact science, of course, but that "beep" makes me check in with myself, ask myself when was the last time I ate, and at a minimum, I always pick up my (calorie-filled) bottle and have a good swig, regardless of when I think my last calorie intake was.    For people who don't use a gps (and I know you don't, Lynne), setting your watch (or phone, whatever) to beep at you every 15-20 minutes is a useful reminder, especially at night.

 

Gels are only 100 calories.  If you are relying primarily on gels, to get 300 calories an hour you need to eat one every 20 minutes.  If you are using them as a supplement to a calorie filled bottle (I put ~200 calories in each bottle), then you'd need to work your way through one gel and 1 full bottle every hour.

 

As you know, Lynne, I run much colder than most people, and even in the summer time I will be wearing long fingered gloves at night.  Long gloves, general fatigue, and the challenges associated with seeing and being coordinated enough to retrieve solid food from my front bag all mean that I tend towards mostly liquid calories at night.  I *do* still eat solid food at night, but not as much as I do in the daylight.  So, I mix my bottles richer at night than during the day.  I rarely use gels in daylight, but I like them for night riding. I buy caffeinated Hammer Gel in the big bottles http://www.hammernutrition.com/products/hammer-gel.hg.html?navcat=fuels-energy-drinks  and put them into a squeezable soft-flask http://www.hammernutrition.com/products/gel-bot-soft-flask.gbsf.html?navcat=accessories&subnavcat=hammergel-accessories    I keep that flask in my pocket and suck on it periodically.  It holds ~700 calories.  Better still, there's no packets to wrestle with (or drop) in the dark, no waste, I can handle it with long fingerered gloves on, it packs down small once empty and it's easy.  My theory on nighttime calories is that they need to be EASY.  Easy to access, easy to digest (especially after your stomach starts to get sensitive), easy on the taste buds, etc.   The easier it is to eat, the more likely you are to eat it.

 

I also think TIMING of calories is important.  Particularly at night, I try not take in too many at once, unless I'm going down for a sleep or there's an easy-ish section of road ahead or I'm planning a long-ish control (like, say, an hour+ at Denny's eating pancakes at 3:30am.... :-), as I don't want the effort of digestion to make me sleepy.   Eating 600 or 1000 calories at a control, getting right back on the bike, and then not eating for 2 hours is not the way to go.   It's better to ingest the same number of calories in 6-8 small hits over that same two hour period.  Your blood sugar level will stay more even (you won't get that spiky sugar high- sleepy low feeling), your stomach will handle the digestion better (no cramping or nausea), and you'll develop the habit of continual nibbling.

 

If you DO find yourself really really needing a nap, try make sure you EAT something before closing your eyes.   Your body can get a jump start on digesting the calories while its not doing anything else, and you'll feel better when you start up again.

 

Lastly, having someone to ride with helps me eat more.  On last weekend's fleche, I was wide awake all night on the bike.   I had one 10 minute power nap at Denny's at 3:30am, but otherwise never felt tired or sleepy.....  until about 6am when I started feeling like the remaining distance was insurmountable and I suddenly wanted to call it a day.  Fortunately for me, one of my teammates asked me when I had eaten last, and I realized that I'd not had anything *solid* since leaving Denny's at 4:30, and I hadn't yet worked through a full bottle of nutrition.  So her reminder prompted me to whip out the ziploc baggie into which I'd packed half my leftover Denny's pancakes.  I nibbled on those over the next 30 minutes or so, and felt SO much better.  Then we had a cup of coffee, the sun came up, and all was right again in the world.  :-)        I think when riding with other people, especially people you know well, it's a good idea to gently remind each other now and then to eat.   Or if someone has gone quiet, or starts to lag, to ask them if they are OK, and see if they are eating.  Just that little nudge can be the key sometimes.

 

----------

 

Obviously, I'm not a nutritionist.  I'm just a gal with a great wardrobe.  These are just things that I've found, over time, to work for me.   I hope there's something above that might help you try a new strategy or get you thinking about this challenge in a different way.  I know you well enough to know that you are certainly NOT lacking in steely determination!

 

Susan

 

 

 

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---

From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Lynne Fitz
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2013 10:03 AM
To: ran...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Randon] Staying Awake - not my strong point

--

[NormC]

Surprised if this hasn't been mentioned already, but if you have a significant caffeine habit, cut it completely right now until you really need it sometime on Saturday night. You'll notice a much more significant effect if you quit until then. Other than that, and assuming sufficient carb intake, I like to sing ...as long as there's nobody within listening distance.

[humming]

I found myself at the Longview (Wash.) Safeway at midnight on our fleche ride last weekend and decided to grab a "5 hour energy" bottle.  I don't know if that's what it was, but I never did get the dreaded sleepys during the ride.  What are other people's experience with "5 hour energy"?

Ward

 

 

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 10:02:34 AM UTC-7, Lynne Fitz wrote:

[Ken Luke]

I did something similar before a 24hr race with the thinking that I would chow down on caffeine pills in the wee hours. Specifically, I stopped all caffeine about three weeks before the event.

Learn from my mistake, don't do this.

This yo-yo-ing of caffeine usage caused two problems:

The first is that my body apparently considers caffeine a required nutrient. I was pretty miserable during those three weeks would start drooling whenever I caught a wiff of a cafe (real easy to do here in Portland).

The second problem was that I failed to take into account just how much caffeine I was consuming all at once after quitting cold-turkey for three weeks. I took too many no-dooze and that threw my stomach for a loop, I felt nauseous and pretty much stopped eating at that point (fortunately it was close to the end so I just toughed it out).

I would not do such an extreme regimen in the future but I think that reduced caffeine consumption leading up to a race could be beneficial, just don't overdo the caffeine during the event.

On May 7, 2013, at 7:44 PM, NormC <norm...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Surprised if this hasn't been mentioned already, but if you have a significant caffeine habit, cut it completely right now until you really need it sometime on Saturday night. You'll notice a much more significant effect if you quit until then. Other than that, and assuming sufficient carb intake, I like to sing ...as long as there's nobody within listening distance.

------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Luke kenl...@gmail.com (971)207-6548

"Complexity is easy; Simplicity is hard."
-- Edmund Keane
------------------------------------------------------------

[Norm Carr]

Exactly. The point is not to have to over-consume in order to get the desired effect.

[roadijeff]

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 1:19:34 PM UTC-5, Emily O'Brien wrote:

Talking helps, but if I don't have anyone to talk to or have run out of things to say, I start reciting stuff: all the limericks I can remember, every song I know with lots of verses, whatever I can think of. Actually it drives Jake a little nuts, but if I'm alone it doesn't bother anyone. ;)

Emily

 
 

And I thought I was the only one who did things like that.  I only do this when I'm by myself but I've been known to sing Christmas carols out loud in the middle of the night.  Sing the "Twelve Days of Christmas" sometime when you're sleepy while trying to remember all of the words.  :-)

 

 

 

 

[randonnerd]

I can personally vouche fo Emily's techniques. Late in the second evening (or was it EARLY on the third morning) of the Endless Mountains 1000K, she began to recite the Jabberwocky.  My literary skills are not that stong but even if I knew the Jabberwocky by heart, in my limited mental state out there in the middle of no where, I couldn't tell you if it she was making it all up and filling in the blanks, or if she was reciting it word-for-word.

On this weekend's Shenandoah I was starting to fade out north of Lexington (a 35 mile stretch of road with limited visual stimulus at midnight.  I started singing 1100011 bottles of beer on the wall out loud with gusto, and next thing you know, I was 20 miles further down the road.  You can use you fingers to keep track of where you are in binary but to really focus the mind, I tried to do all of the counting in my head.

Bill

[Roy Yates]

Bill,

I am puzzled that a story about you and Emily doesn't involve a pickle. 

Also, (going completely OT)  besides 1100011=99, I wonder how many other multi-digit numbers are anagrams in both 10 and base 2?

...Roy

On Monday, June 10, 2013 9:50:43 AM UTC-4, Randonnerd wrote:

I can personally vouche fo Emily's techniques. Late in the second evening (or was it EARLY on the third morning) of the Endless Mountains 1000K, she began to recite the Jabberwocky.  My literary skills are not that stong but even if I knew the Jabberwocky by heart, in my limited mental state out there in the middle of no where, I couldn't tell you if it she was making it all up and filling in the blanks, or if she was reciting it word-for-word.

On this weekend's Shenandoah I was starting to fade out north of Lexington (a 35 mile stretch of road with limited visual stimulus at midnight.  I started singing 1100011 bottles of beer on the wall out loud with gusto, and next thing you know, I was 20 miles further down the road.  You can use you fingers to keep track of where you are in binary but to really focus the mind, I tried to do all of the counting in my head.

Bill

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013, Emily O'Brien wrote:

I've found that aside from the obvious issue that darkness makes you sleepy and light perks you up, I've found that at night especially, a number of other things can manifest themselves as sleepiness before I feel them for what they really are. Not eating enough is one of them, definitely. Actually that's probably the biggest reason I don't chew gum because even though chewing gum helps a bit, it also makes me put off eating longer. Eating a snack is almost like chewing gum, only you get calories out of it. 

Another is cold. Cold doesn't make me feel sleepy other times, but on rides in the dark it makes me feel sleepy even before I feel cold. So it makes sense to dress warmer at night than I might for the same weather conditions during the day. I really notice it when I get to the tops of hills, because while I'm climbing I'll get warmer, wake up a bit, and of course drench myself in sweat. When I start going down, my heart rate drops because I'm not climbing, plus I'm softpedaling into the wind and I'm sweaty, and I can suddenly feel really sleepy even if I felt alert a moment ago while climbing. It would be nice if descending on a fixed gear helped, but it doesn't. 

Talking helps, but if I don't have anyone to talk to or have run out of things to say, I start reciting stuff: all the limericks I can remember, every song I know with lots of verses, whatever I can think of. Actually it drives Jake a little nuts, but if I'm alone it doesn't bother anyone. ;)

Emily

-----------------------------------

Dill Pickle

... gear for the extra mile

www.dillpicklegear.com

-----------------------------------

On May 7, 2013, at 1:02 PM, Lynne Fitz <fitz...@comcast.net> wrote:

What are your strategies for staying awake?  The sun goes down and I start falling asleep.  I cannot even count the number of 10 minute nap breaks I took from about 2:30am until the sun came up at 6am during this past weekend's fleche.  I hate it.

I was eating caffeinated mints, caffeinated gels, some food (probably not quite enough), and I'd be good for awhile, and then I'd start nodding off.

Need something to try on this weekend's 400k...

Thanks,

Lynne F

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[Tim Foon Feldman]

Roy, et al,

Multi-digit anagrams in multiple bases? Now there's a thought to keep you occupied. Chris Case just wrote on a similar theme on Velo News, ...The never-ending math equation...."

To get you "primed," the lowest number with that property is 33 decimal, 100001 binary, and the next one after 99 is 313 decimal, 100111001 binary which is also prime.

For the firmware side of the house, the first number that is an anagram in both base 10 and base 16 is 353 decimal, 161 hexadecimal, and another prime.

Back to riding: I too was singing out loud to myself during the last Gold Rush Randonee in 2009 in the wee hours of the second night. And the same song as Bill selected but in a pedestrian base 10.

Good luck to all the GRR riders later this month. May you find your muse in whatever base you choose.

~Tim Foon Feldman

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to randon+un...@googlegroups.com.

[randonnerd]

Tim - THANKS!!! Although I originally thought Chris's article was where you got your multi-base/multi-digit anagrams results , upon opening the link, I realized the level of cyphering he was at was pretty much where those of us that don't use speed-o-meters or those fancy handlebar computers are, (let's see...it is ten miles to the next cue turn and I'm riding slower than molasses.  I cm pretty much zone out for the next 50 minutes and not worry about missing the cue.)  This is also why riders such as me value ACCURATE cue sheets.

You've stollen the punch line by giving me the answers (did you do them in your head or on your Garmin?). No problem though as on the Gold Rush I'll see if I can work them out in my head.

I'll also be listening for folks to be singing 1100011 bottles of beer on the wall as the push into the Greenville Control in the early morning hours.

Bill

[Dave Thompson]

I also have trouble staying awake if I'm getting cold.  Cold on a downhill is very bad, curves or no curves.  I have to keep my body and head warm.

Chewing gum and listening to music help me a lot.  If I'm really sleepy, however, all that gum chewing makes for sore jaws !  Varying one's position on the bike; stop and stretch every so often; talk to someone; talk to yourself; sing ...

Regular coffee has little effect but an espresso or cappuccino does work for a while.  That said, I did a face-plant at a cafe after a cappuccino on the Miglia ... sometimes sleep overwhelms ! 

Dave.