wheel size discussion
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joe werth
Dec 8, 2009, 2:05:19 PM12/8/09
to 65...@bikelist.org, ran...@googlegroups.com
:::I posted this on iBob list an got a few insights, and i just wanted to see if anyone else has something different. If you're on the iBob list and have read, please excuse.
wheel size: 650B vs 700cc
I'm in a lucky situation to have a very close friend that is a frame builder, and is willing to help/show/teach me to build a bike for myself. I've been reading a few frame building books he lent me, as well as, researching what I want in a bike on this and other forums and BQ magazine.
A little background: I have always loved old steel lugged frames and have a good slew of them in all different shapes and sizes, being that I come across them off of craigslist and at a second hand junk store where I work. (You'll be surprised at some of the frames people have "thrown away" in the 7 years I've worked there.) Amongst my group of bikes are a few go fast steel 80's frames, a Bruce Gordon touring, a bridgestone triathalon, and one custom lightweight, that my before-mentioned friend built for me, which is absolutely the most beautiful, responsive, and fun to ride bike I've ever been on.
As far as riding style, I get out 5 days a week and try to get in 200+ miles on a good week. So, a good bit of saddle time for some, minimal for others. I've also ridden on a couple of organized century rides and have toured fully loaded and lightly loaded quite extensively. I have experienced a range of distances and am wanting to explore the randonneuring aspect of cycling more. Thanks so much for Jan's magazine for opening up the whole history and on going revitalization(?) of this sport. I had no idea there were so many people, not to mention a bike movement, into what I thought was such a small and specific quest of mine.
Now comes the question: upon doing research on a randonneuring bicycle for me, I'm confused by one main thing, and this thing pretty much dictates the measurements of the bike frame, yep, you guessed it: wheel size. 700cc or 650B? All my bikes I own are 700cc wheels. So this is all I've known. To think of building a bike on a wheel set/size that I have no experience with is a good bit daunting, not to mention my frame building friend also has only 700cc experience and will do his best to convince me of it's virtues and history. In discussing with him, him being a larger guy, whereas I'm 5'10" at 155lbs, he's convinced 700 x 35mm is optimal and maybe a bit overstated for me. What advantages does 650b do for me other than toe overlap(not an issue), small frame size(also not an issue), and rolling with a good, lightweight tire up to size 42 or 50mm (which I've never tried.)
And the crux of it all is experience. Experience would definitely tell me. And upon suggesting I build up a 650b wheel set and throw it on bike with brakes that would accomodate could give me that knowledge, he thinks there is no real way to test that wheel size besides truly riding a bike built specifically as a 650b randonneuring bike. To give me the most accurate imitation of what I will build. (As a side note: I've read custom frames are usually tweaked off of one's best fitting favorite bike, that have had countless miles and saddle time.)
Any suggestions? and hopefully this doesn't dreg up the virtues of tire size, even though it is inexplicably related.
thanks
joe
oakland, ca
wheel size: 650B vs 700cc
I'm in a lucky situation to have a very close friend that is a frame builder, and is willing to help/show/teach me to build a bike for myself. I've been reading a few frame building books he lent me, as well as, researching what I want in a bike on this and other forums and BQ magazine.
A little background: I have always loved old steel lugged frames and have a good slew of them in all different shapes and sizes, being that I come across them off of craigslist and at a second hand junk store where I work. (You'll be surprised at some of the frames people have "thrown away" in the 7 years I've worked there.) Amongst my group of bikes are a few go fast steel 80's frames, a Bruce Gordon touring, a bridgestone triathalon, and one custom lightweight, that my before-mentioned friend built for me, which is absolutely the most beautiful, responsive, and fun to ride bike I've ever been on.
As far as riding style, I get out 5 days a week and try to get in 200+ miles on a good week. So, a good bit of saddle time for some, minimal for others. I've also ridden on a couple of organized century rides and have toured fully loaded and lightly loaded quite extensively. I have experienced a range of distances and am wanting to explore the randonneuring aspect of cycling more. Thanks so much for Jan's magazine for opening up the whole history and on going revitalization(?) of this sport. I had no idea there were so many people, not to mention a bike movement, into what I thought was such a small and specific quest of mine.
Now comes the question: upon doing research on a randonneuring bicycle for me, I'm confused by one main thing, and this thing pretty much dictates the measurements of the bike frame, yep, you guessed it: wheel size. 700cc or 650B? All my bikes I own are 700cc wheels. So this is all I've known. To think of building a bike on a wheel set/size that I have no experience with is a good bit daunting, not to mention my frame building friend also has only 700cc experience and will do his best to convince me of it's virtues and history. In discussing with him, him being a larger guy, whereas I'm 5'10" at 155lbs, he's convinced 700 x 35mm is optimal and maybe a bit overstated for me. What advantages does 650b do for me other than toe overlap(not an issue), small frame size(also not an issue), and rolling with a good, lightweight tire up to size 42 or 50mm (which I've never tried.)
And the crux of it all is experience. Experience would definitely tell me. And upon suggesting I build up a 650b wheel set and throw it on bike with brakes that would accomodate could give me that knowledge, he thinks there is no real way to test that wheel size besides truly riding a bike built specifically as a 650b randonneuring bike. To give me the most accurate imitation of what I will build. (As a side note: I've read custom frames are usually tweaked off of one's best fitting favorite bike, that have had countless miles and saddle time.)
Any suggestions? and hopefully this doesn't dreg up the virtues of tire size, even though it is inexplicably related.
thanks
joe
oakland, ca
Darren Stone
Dec 8, 2009, 3:53:07 PM12/8/09
to randon
Hi Joe.
I think you're right that if you have a good-fitting, comfortable 700C
bike and you can tweak off that in custom ways then you're bound to
get an excellent result. Changing to a smaller wheel size should, in
theory, feel odd initially but better because of the lowered center of
gravity. Though it's really not that much and the biggest thing that
will do that is a lower bottom bracket for a rando bike but I'm sure
your friend is keyed into that aspect, regardless of wheel size.
I'll give you my data point anyways. A year ago I decided I *needed*
a purpose built rando bike. Looked at 700C and 650B. Then a great
new frame, in the right size, at a good price presented itself to me.
Decision made. The frame was 650B but I shod it with 650A and haven't
looked back. Excellent quality (and nice looking) rims available in
that size. Not as many tire options as 650B, but there are a handful
of quality ones and once you find the one or two you need, the rest is
folly. I've put approximately 4,000 km on the bike so far, so that's
not a lot by your standards. But it has been an eye-opening year for
me and I'm leaning toward my next bike, a city bike re-build, being
650A also. The Panaracer Col de la Vie Randonee is a 38 mm tire,
nominally. I'm 5'11" and maybe 180 lbs. I run those tires at 55 PSI
and I can't say enough good things about the quality of the ride.
Haven't flatted yet. That surprised me. Rolling on smooth pavement
is amazing. And of course I don't sweat the cobblestones, gravel,
glass, or frost heaves when they appear. There are kevlar-lined
bulletproof tires available in this size also, by Schwalbe, and I have
a set. Slightly narrower but heavier and they have stiffer sidewalls
so they don't feel nearly as nice rolling.
Anyways, blah blah blah, you can tell I like this unusual size. I'm
sure I'd be equally happy with the slightly smaller 650B also
though... Just throwing a weird idea at you. Good luck!
The best edge you have is the frame builder friend. Wheel size is
just religion. Or is it physics? Who can tell, these days...
-Darren.
I think you're right that if you have a good-fitting, comfortable 700C
bike and you can tweak off that in custom ways then you're bound to
get an excellent result. Changing to a smaller wheel size should, in
theory, feel odd initially but better because of the lowered center of
gravity. Though it's really not that much and the biggest thing that
will do that is a lower bottom bracket for a rando bike but I'm sure
your friend is keyed into that aspect, regardless of wheel size.
I'll give you my data point anyways. A year ago I decided I *needed*
a purpose built rando bike. Looked at 700C and 650B. Then a great
new frame, in the right size, at a good price presented itself to me.
Decision made. The frame was 650B but I shod it with 650A and haven't
looked back. Excellent quality (and nice looking) rims available in
that size. Not as many tire options as 650B, but there are a handful
of quality ones and once you find the one or two you need, the rest is
folly. I've put approximately 4,000 km on the bike so far, so that's
not a lot by your standards. But it has been an eye-opening year for
me and I'm leaning toward my next bike, a city bike re-build, being
650A also. The Panaracer Col de la Vie Randonee is a 38 mm tire,
nominally. I'm 5'11" and maybe 180 lbs. I run those tires at 55 PSI
and I can't say enough good things about the quality of the ride.
Haven't flatted yet. That surprised me. Rolling on smooth pavement
is amazing. And of course I don't sweat the cobblestones, gravel,
glass, or frost heaves when they appear. There are kevlar-lined
bulletproof tires available in this size also, by Schwalbe, and I have
a set. Slightly narrower but heavier and they have stiffer sidewalls
so they don't feel nearly as nice rolling.
Anyways, blah blah blah, you can tell I like this unusual size. I'm
sure I'd be equally happy with the slightly smaller 650B also
though... Just throwing a weird idea at you. Good luck!
The best edge you have is the frame builder friend. Wheel size is
just religion. Or is it physics? Who can tell, these days...
-Darren.
Eric Keller
Dec 8, 2009, 5:01:19 PM12/8/09
to ran...@googlegroups.com
I have nothing against 650b, but if you think you really want to go
with that size you should realize that the likelihood of external
support is much lower than with 700c. I was just on a ride where a
rider cut his sidewall. He said, "well, I guess it's over ... unless
someone has a tire." This was 10 miles from the end of one of the
most brutal 200k rides imaginable, and you could hear the frustration
and disappointment in his voice. However, the other three of us
riding with him all had spare tires. Now you could say you're going
to take a tire, but I know people who have gone through 2 tires on a
brevet. I say go with the flow if you really want to participate in
randonneuring. If you want a stylish "rando bike" to ride relatively
short distances, I think 650b tires make a really nice looking bike.
I'm going through the tire size thought process for my own bike. I
think I will make a frame to accommodate 28mm tires at the largest. I
usually run 25mm tires, and find them to be pretty good under most
conditions.
Eric Keller,
Boalsburg, PA
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with that size you should realize that the likelihood of external
support is much lower than with 700c. I was just on a ride where a
rider cut his sidewall. He said, "well, I guess it's over ... unless
someone has a tire." This was 10 miles from the end of one of the
most brutal 200k rides imaginable, and you could hear the frustration
and disappointment in his voice. However, the other three of us
riding with him all had spare tires. Now you could say you're going
to take a tire, but I know people who have gone through 2 tires on a
brevet. I say go with the flow if you really want to participate in
randonneuring. If you want a stylish "rando bike" to ride relatively
short distances, I think 650b tires make a really nice looking bike.
I'm going through the tire size thought process for my own bike. I
think I will make a frame to accommodate 28mm tires at the largest. I
usually run 25mm tires, and find them to be pretty good under most
conditions.
Eric Keller,
Boalsburg, PA
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "randon" group.
> To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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NickBull
Dec 9, 2009, 11:42:37 AM12/9/09
to randon
Seems like the key thing here is that neither you nor your teacher
have ever ridden on. let alone built frames for 650B wheels. I guess
you could just use the frame geometry for something that you've read
about in that size (e.g. in Bicycle Quarterly or elsewhere). But I
have to think that there are potentially "gotchas" in building a frame
for a wheel size that neither of you is familiar with. You could
always build your first, "practice" frame as a 700C, since it sounds
like you have plenty of spare parts sitting around to build it up
with. If you are interested in a low-trail, handlebar-bag-friendly
geometry then you can look at some of the 700C rando bikes.
I haven't had the chance to ride 650B, yet, but my impression is that
a big "plus" of this wheel size is the ability to ride on tires that
are really wide, like 38 or 42, and still have a frame that can be
built light and responsive and without big toe overlap problems and
that allows for a crankset that has a fairly narrow tread. And
supposedly, high quality tires in those sizes can be just as fast as
narrow, high pressure racing tires, while being infinitely more
comfortable. If you try to imagine what you'd have to do with your
favorite 700C frame to make it allow tires that wide (e.g. lengthening
&/or bending the stays near the seat tube so that they are much wider
apart to accomodate the fat tires with fenders, etc.) then I think
you can start to see why you'd want to have the smaller-size wheels.
That said, cross-bikes handle big, fat tires ...
have ever ridden on. let alone built frames for 650B wheels. I guess
you could just use the frame geometry for something that you've read
about in that size (e.g. in Bicycle Quarterly or elsewhere). But I
have to think that there are potentially "gotchas" in building a frame
for a wheel size that neither of you is familiar with. You could
always build your first, "practice" frame as a 700C, since it sounds
like you have plenty of spare parts sitting around to build it up
with. If you are interested in a low-trail, handlebar-bag-friendly
geometry then you can look at some of the 700C rando bikes.
I haven't had the chance to ride 650B, yet, but my impression is that
a big "plus" of this wheel size is the ability to ride on tires that
are really wide, like 38 or 42, and still have a frame that can be
built light and responsive and without big toe overlap problems and
that allows for a crankset that has a fairly narrow tread. And
supposedly, high quality tires in those sizes can be just as fast as
narrow, high pressure racing tires, while being infinitely more
comfortable. If you try to imagine what you'd have to do with your
favorite 700C frame to make it allow tires that wide (e.g. lengthening
&/or bending the stays near the seat tube so that they are much wider
apart to accomodate the fat tires with fenders, etc.) then I think
you can start to see why you'd want to have the smaller-size wheels.
That said, cross-bikes handle big, fat tires ...
Patrick in VT
Dec 9, 2009, 5:05:37 PM12/9/09
to randon
On Dec 8, 5:01 pm, Eric Keller <keller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I say go with the flow if you really want to participate in
>randonneuring. If you want a stylish "rando bike" to ride relatively
>short distances, I think 650b tires make a really nice looking bike.
what exactly is the "flow" in randonneuring? I see all kinds of bikes
>I say go with the flow if you really want to participate in
>randonneuring. If you want a stylish "rando bike" to ride relatively
>short distances, I think 650b tires make a really nice looking bike.
out there and all kinds of ride-ending equipment failures, which are
hardly limited to tires .. . . .seems like a pretty frivolous argument
against 650b.
seriously, all you rando folk - raise your hand if you've been
stranded because of your tires and note what size they were.
littlecirclesvt.com :: mike beganyi
Dec 9, 2009, 5:23:21 PM12/9/09
to randon
Hand raised. I had a 400k go awry at the 120 mile mark due to
'flow'...
Oh wait. Wrong thread. Actually I had issue with 'flow' from about
mile 20 to mile 120 when I pulled the plug and waited for rescue.
'flow'...
Oh wait. Wrong thread. Actually I had issue with 'flow' from about
mile 20 to mile 120 when I pulled the plug and waited for rescue.
ligh...@harbornet.com
Dec 9, 2009, 6:39:17 PM12/9/09
to Patrick in VT, ran...@googlegroups.com
Hand Raised
27 inch wheels, Shrader Valve.
Ruined the first tube with my tire levers. Broke the stem off the second tube pumping up the tire.
Yeah, I know, a true randonnuer would have patched it together with a Pay Day wrapper and Gatorade spit but I had just ridden my 40 pound bike up Zoo Hill and I wasn't thinking clearly.
--- psh...@drm.com wrote:
From: Patrick in VT <psh...@drm.com>
To: randon <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Randon] Re: wheel size discussion
Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2009 14:05:37 -0800 (PST)
On Dec 8, 5:01 pm, Eric Keller <keller...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I say go with the flow if you really want to participate in
>randonneuring. If you want a stylish "rando bike" to ride relatively
>short distances, I think 650b tires make a really nice looking bike.
what exactly is the "flow" in randonneuring? I see all kinds of bikes
out there and all kinds of ride-ending equipment failures, which are
hardly limited to tires .. . . .seems like a pretty frivolous argument
against 650b.
seriously, all you rando folk - raise your hand if you've been
stranded because of your tires and note what size they were.
WMdeR
Dec 9, 2009, 7:15:06 PM12/9/09
to randon
Dear Patrick et al,
I've not had, nor have I witnessed, a ride-ending TIRE problem on a
brevet or permanent since I started riding brevets in 2004. I've had
to boot three (narrow) 700C tires to date on my unpaved permanents,
but those weren't ride-enders.
Actually, I've never needed a spare clincher tire on the road, ever,
in 27 years of riding, racing, commuting, and randonneuring. If I
include the time I spent on various balloon tire bikes, it would be
closer to 35 years. I'm not a big guy by rando-standards (riding
weight these days is roundabouts ten and a half stone) and I ride on
the relatively well-maintained Colorado road network. Even the
unpaved roads are nice. In fact, we've got a pretty full calendar
this year. You should all come out and try 'em this spring....
If you're riding around the world, or, if the roads where you ride
seem to aggressively eat tires then perhaps the "650B spare tire is
not in every shop" issue would be a concern. The OP reportedly rides
200mi a week. How many tires have damaged so that you had to replace
it on the spot?
If it makes you nervous and you want a 650B machine, carry a Grand
Bois Cyprès (32-584) as an emergency spare (I believe Jan H. espouses
this practice in the Pacific NW), and toss a couple of tires in your
drop bag for overnight rides. It is just not an issue in my
experience.
Best Regards,
Will
William M. deRosset
RUSA 2401
P.S. "Flow", on the other hand, is much more likely to be a ride-
stopper. My last attempt on the Cyclos Montagnards Colorado Challenge
became the Greater Tour of Front Range Outhouses, and I eventually
chucked it in after 175mi, spent. Thanks, Mike, for the reminder, and
for the oblique pun.
I've not had, nor have I witnessed, a ride-ending TIRE problem on a
brevet or permanent since I started riding brevets in 2004. I've had
to boot three (narrow) 700C tires to date on my unpaved permanents,
but those weren't ride-enders.
Actually, I've never needed a spare clincher tire on the road, ever,
in 27 years of riding, racing, commuting, and randonneuring. If I
include the time I spent on various balloon tire bikes, it would be
closer to 35 years. I'm not a big guy by rando-standards (riding
weight these days is roundabouts ten and a half stone) and I ride on
the relatively well-maintained Colorado road network. Even the
unpaved roads are nice. In fact, we've got a pretty full calendar
this year. You should all come out and try 'em this spring....
If you're riding around the world, or, if the roads where you ride
seem to aggressively eat tires then perhaps the "650B spare tire is
not in every shop" issue would be a concern. The OP reportedly rides
200mi a week. How many tires have damaged so that you had to replace
it on the spot?
If it makes you nervous and you want a 650B machine, carry a Grand
Bois Cyprès (32-584) as an emergency spare (I believe Jan H. espouses
this practice in the Pacific NW), and toss a couple of tires in your
drop bag for overnight rides. It is just not an issue in my
experience.
Best Regards,
Will
William M. deRosset
RUSA 2401
P.S. "Flow", on the other hand, is much more likely to be a ride-
stopper. My last attempt on the Cyclos Montagnards Colorado Challenge
became the Greater Tour of Front Range Outhouses, and I eventually
chucked it in after 175mi, spent. Thanks, Mike, for the reminder, and
for the oblique pun.
Message has been deleted
Mike
Dec 10, 2009, 11:43:23 AM12/10/09
to randon
"With wider 650B tires, the cut probably would have been less severe,
if the tire had been cut at all - there is less pressure per square
inch of contact patch with wider tires. "
I imagine this holds true for 700c tires also?
I've been randonneuring for 2yrs and have only had 2 flats. One on a
populaire and one on a 600k. No cataclysmic failures that have caused
me to abandon. I'm playing around with bikes and tires now in
anticipation for next year's brevet series. Although I'm leaning
towards using my Rambouillet with Ruffy Tuffys, or possibly Challenge
tires, I'll most likely use my Hilsen and larger tires--Jack Browns or
maybe Schwalbe Kojaks. I wonder if a 700c version of the Grand Bois
Herte tire would work. I know this tire isn't made but if it was...
--mike
if the tire had been cut at all - there is less pressure per square
inch of contact patch with wider tires. "
I imagine this holds true for 700c tires also?
I've been randonneuring for 2yrs and have only had 2 flats. One on a
populaire and one on a 600k. No cataclysmic failures that have caused
me to abandon. I'm playing around with bikes and tires now in
anticipation for next year's brevet series. Although I'm leaning
towards using my Rambouillet with Ruffy Tuffys, or possibly Challenge
tires, I'll most likely use my Hilsen and larger tires--Jack Browns or
maybe Schwalbe Kojaks. I wonder if a 700c version of the Grand Bois
Herte tire would work. I know this tire isn't made but if it was...
--mike
Lynne Fitz
Dec 12, 2009, 5:53:16 PM12/12/09
to randon
Ride-ending tire problems. There could have been 2 - both on Cycle
Oregon. 700c Schwalbe Stelvio tires, both casing failures. One
exploded (fortunately NOT while I was riding it), the other was just
about to. Once I was carrying a spare tire, the other time the ride
support mechanic sold me a tire.
650B - the bead separated on a Michelin Axial Raid (3000 miles?) on a
ride around home. I could have walked, BUT, as I was carrying a spare
tire, I installed it and all was good.
27" Schwalbe Marathon - no problem. Of course, I killed the bike, so
no longer have those wheels/tires around.
Current 650B tires - Michelin Axial Raid. No problems, except for the
one mentioned above. Previous tires - Riv Nifty Swifties - 2 flats
over the life of the tires, maybe.
Upcoming new bike will have 650B Michelin Megamiums, because I've got
a set in the garage.
I like the 650B tires for many reasons - 1) durability, 2) ride, 3)
I'm not a big person - smaller wheels allow for a frame that fits me
better.
Oregon. 700c Schwalbe Stelvio tires, both casing failures. One
exploded (fortunately NOT while I was riding it), the other was just
about to. Once I was carrying a spare tire, the other time the ride
support mechanic sold me a tire.
650B - the bead separated on a Michelin Axial Raid (3000 miles?) on a
ride around home. I could have walked, BUT, as I was carrying a spare
tire, I installed it and all was good.
27" Schwalbe Marathon - no problem. Of course, I killed the bike, so
no longer have those wheels/tires around.
Current 650B tires - Michelin Axial Raid. No problems, except for the
one mentioned above. Previous tires - Riv Nifty Swifties - 2 flats
over the life of the tires, maybe.
Upcoming new bike will have 650B Michelin Megamiums, because I've got
a set in the garage.
I like the 650B tires for many reasons - 1) durability, 2) ride, 3)
I'm not a big person - smaller wheels allow for a frame that fits me
better.
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