Using a generator hub to recharge batteries?

[Kitty Goursolle]

Has anybody tried this? Used your generator hub to recharge a battery
pack? I'm just getting my GPS ready as my winter project. It's a
Garmin Edge 705, and it will have a Gomadic external battery pack so
it can run for at least 10--12 hours non-stop. I have a SON 20 hub
that puts out 3 watts/6 volts at full power and would like to see if
it can be used to recharge the Gnomadic's li-poly batteries.
I decided to get the GPS after reading about LEL's tricky navigation
and the German 1200k where Emily O'Brien ended up riding 1400+k, due
to no GPS.
Thanks,
Kitty
p.s. my hub is busy powering an Edelux headlight and a Supernova tail
light, so maybe the recharging would have to happen in the daytime
only.

[Bill Gobie]

The B+M E-Werk probably does what you want:

http://www.bumm.de/index-e.html?docu/361e.htm

I see B+M also have a new universal gizmo mount for GPSs, phones, ray
guns, etc:

http://www.bumm.de/index-e.html?docu/361e.htm

Bill Gobie

[jimg]

A DIY thread: http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-356408.html

A commercial product: http://bikehugger.com/2009/09/charge-your-ipod-with-your-bik.html

-Jim G

[Dark Horse]

If you don't want to build your own, then get the B&M device. I would
wait at least six months, though. There's an old rule about never
buying the first model year of anything complicated, and it applies
here. Let other people do B&M's beta testing.

If you want to build your own, then look here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=86

There has been lots of discussion on this exact topic. People have
posted circuit diagrams, flow charts, theory, and everything else you
might need. Search and ye shall find.
It's quite a bit more complicated than just connecting the two.
Current batteries, especially lithium-polymer, can be explosively
intolerant of abuse. Proceed with care.


Dark Horse

[Thomas Martin]

Bill Gobie or other knowledgeable Randos, The E-Werk seems like a very nice solution to charging a bike GPS. Many of us use the Garmin 605/705 GPS units. What are the recommended voltage and current settings for these units? How easy is it to tune those dials to the desired settings? Will this circuit protect my GPS and other equipment from power surges from the hub? If my light is turn off and my GPS (and any other attached equipment) charged will one still experience drag from the hub or will the physical resistence zero out when charging is no longer needed? Thanks for sharing this info on a topic crucial to many of us! Tom

[David]

I was looking for something similar and I found this the other day http://www.dahon.com/news/releases/08272009.htm. It looks to do a similar thing for a lot less. I too would be interested to know what the experience of cycling with a dyno hub is.

 

D

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to randon-un...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/randon/

[Greg Merritt]

Le Dec 2, 2009 à 22:04, "David" <da...@dotnetland.co.uk> a écrit :

> I too would be interested to know what the experience of cycling
> with a dyno hub is.

You pedal, light comes on. That's pretty much the experience.

Awesome, no?

-Greg

[Eric Keller]

My headlight is always on, powered by a dynohub. I decided to forgo a
switch after a very rainy 400k where both of my headlights failed and
I had to live with my helmet light. My thought process was that a
switch is just one more thing that can fail, and probably let water
into the system. I really don't notice any significant difference in
the amount of effort required.
Eric

[Steve Palincsar]

Indeed it is. You left out the part about laughing out loud at the
sheer joy of it.

And NOT part of the experience are: light dimming as the battery dies;
remembering to recharge the battery; light going out during the ride
because it's getting old and no longer holds as much as it used to; and
getting caught unexpectedly at twilight and swearing at having not
brought the light.

[David]

I think I figured out the bit where you peddle and the light comes on ;)

So how much more effort is it to move or is it not noticeable?

Also what hubs are everyone using - which is a good one to try?

Thanks

D

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Palincsar" <pali...@his.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:21 AM
To: "Greg Merritt" <greg.m...@gmail.com>
Cc: "randon" <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Randon] Using a generator hub to recharge batteries?

> On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 00:06 -0800, Greg Merritt wrote:

>> Le Dec 2, 2009 � 22:04, "David" <da...@dotnetland.co.uk> a �crit :

>>
>> > I too would be interested to know what the experience of cycling
>> > with a dyno hub is.
>>
>> You pedal, light comes on. That's pretty much the experience.
>>
>> Awesome, no?
>
> Indeed it is. You left out the part about laughing out loud at the
> sheer joy of it.
>
> And NOT part of the experience are: light dimming as the battery dies;
> remembering to recharge the battery; light going out during the ride
> because it's getting old and no longer holds as much as it used to; and
> getting caught unexpectedly at twilight and swearing at having not
> brought the light.
>
>
>

[Greg Merritt]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:51 AM, David <da...@dotnetland.co.uk> wrote:
> I think I figured out the bit where you peddle and the light comes on ;)

Peter White is the expert in peddling bicycle hubs:

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Schmidt.asp

> So how much more effort is it to move or is it not noticeable?

I suppose my original message was too subtle.

It's not "you pedal, light comes on until you get miserably tired from
all of the effort," if you dig. ;)

On a smooth road, I can feel -- almost hear, but it's feel -- a buzz
or hum in the bike.

I find myself turning my light off when climbing during the day, but
this is really only psychological.

> Also what hubs are everyone using - which is a good one to try?

Everybody uses a Schmidt hub.

Ok, not really -- but they are very very good, and there's a wide
variety of models.

The Shimano hubs are getting better all the time, and are cheaper.
Shimanos have typically had a noticeably greater resistance with the
light off when compared to the Schmidt, but I believe that this is the
parameter that Shimano has been improving.

-Greg

[Mark Schoonover]

I'm using a Shimano hub laced into a Salsa cross rim. It's powering an IQ Cyo light. It has been totally amazing to night ride with this setup. I really don't notice any drag, unless the uphill is very steep. I'll switch the light off and use my helmet light since I'm riding so slow.

Mark Schoonover
http://surlyrando.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/markschoonover
Cell: 619-368-0099

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:51 AM, David <da...@dotnetland.co.uk> wrote:

I think I figured out the bit where you peddle and the light comes on ;)

So how much more effort is it to move or is it not noticeable?

Also what hubs are everyone using - which is a good one to try?

Thanks

D

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Palincsar" <pali...@his.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:21 AM
To: "Greg Merritt" <greg.m...@gmail.com>
Cc: "randon" <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Randon] Using a generator hub to recharge batteries?

> On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 00:06 -0800, Greg Merritt wrote:

[Ken Freeman]

pedal, not peddle.

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 10:51 AM, David <da...@dotnetland.co.uk> wrote:

I think I figured out the bit where you peddle and the light comes on ;)

So how much more effort is it to move or is it not noticeable?

Also what hubs are everyone using - which is a good one to try?

Thanks

D

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Steve Palincsar" <pali...@his.com>
Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:21 AM
To: "Greg Merritt" <greg.m...@gmail.com>
Cc: "randon" <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Randon] Using a generator hub to recharge batteries?

> On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 00:06 -0800, Greg Merritt wrote:

--
Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

[Mark Schoonover]

Unless you're trying to sell your pedal powered generator - then you'd be peddling it! :)

Mark Schoonover
http://surlyrando.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/markschoonover
Cell: 619-368-0099

[Wesley Smith]

I have a B&M Cyo Plus and an E-werk on order. For power, I've got an Alfine generator hub laced to a Velocity Fusion waiting to start generating power.

I will report back after I have some results.

Wes

[Ingle, Bruce]

> And NOT part of the experience are: light dimming as
> the battery dies; remembering to recharge the battery;
> light going out during the ride because it's getting
> old and no longer holds as much as it used to; and
> getting caught unexpectedly at twilight and swearing
> at having not brought the light.

As opposed to the broken wiring, uncommon connectors, intermittent
lighting, bound-up hubs and expensive/non-interchangeable wheels that
I've heard about on this list, among other things.

As with dynamo systems, battery lighting has improved greatly over the
last decade or two to reduce many of its problems.

I've always used and preferred battery lighting for randonneuring, and
it works fine for me; YMMV.

- Bruce

[Eric Keller]

On a 300k or longer brevet, I carry a battery powered light as backup
and always have a helmet light for double redundant backup. The day
to day advantage of being able to leave lighting on my bike and not
have to worry about it leads me to have a dynohub on the bike. It's
liberating and changed the way I ride. Failures are extremely
unlikely, but randos ride long miles and they do happen. I'm in no
way arguing with your choice, just further expounding on why one might
want to have a dyno system.

I'm using a Shimano dynohub. I want a Schmidt, but the price scares
me a little. The Shimanos are uglier, that's the main difference to
me.
Eric Keller

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Ingle, Bruce <Bruce...@gdc4s.com> wrote:

> As opposed to the broken wiring, uncommon connectors, intermittent
> lighting, bound-up hubs and expensive/non-interchangeable wheels that
> I've heard about on this list, among other things.
>
> As with dynamo systems, battery lighting has improved greatly over the
> last decade or two to reduce many of its problems.
>
> I've always used and preferred battery lighting for randonneuring, and
> it works fine for me; YMMV.
>
> - Bruce
>

[Ken Freeman]

Bingo!

[Bill Gobie]

On Dec 3, 2009, at 7:51 AM, David wrote:

> I think I figured out the bit where you peddle and the light comes
> on ;)

The light also comes on if you coast downhill!

>
> So how much more effort is it to move or is it not noticeable?

With a modern LED headlight it's not noticeable. Back in the dark
ages running two E-6s could be felt.

Roughly, headlights are 3 watts. Schmidt SONs are about 60%
efficient, meaning of the power you put in 60% is converted to
electricity. To supply 3 watts to the light you put in about 5 watts
to the hub. How does 5 watts compare to your overall power? You can
get some power estimates from analyticcycling.com [1]. When you're
bonked only making 10 mph on the level it takes about 55 watts to move
the bike. So the light would be eating about 10% of your output.
Going 18 mph takes 200 watts; 2.5% would be used by the light.

What this means is when you're in good shape drag from the light is
negligible; changes in clothing and riding position matter more. When
you're bonked an argument could be made for switching to your backup
battery light, if you carry one.

From memory, with lights off Bicycle Quarterly's testing found a
SON's drag was about 2 watts vs. 1 watt for a conventional hub.

Laced into a 26"-ish size wheel, 20" SON models have slightly lower
drag than the 26" SONs, with the tradeoff of lower power output until
you reach 18-20 mph. If all you're running is a single 3 watt LED
headlight then a SON20 makes some sense, although the difference is
very minor.

These power considerations also apply if you're running your mobile
office from an E-WERK or similar gizmo. For maximum power a SON26 is
better than a SON20, but realize you're providing that power, possibly
as much as 13 watts.

>
> Also what hubs are everyone using - which is a good one to try?

SONs are the gold standard.

Bill Gobie


[1] My parameters: drag coefficient 1, weight 95 kg, rolling
resistance 0.006.

[Donald Perley]

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Bill Gobie <bi...@billandlorene.com> wrote:

>> So how much more effort is it to move or is it not noticeable?

> These power considerations also apply if you're running your mobile
> office from an E-WERK or similar gizmo.  For maximum power a SON26 is
> better than a SON20, but realize you're providing that power, possibly
> as much as 13 watts.

Figures like this hit home a little harder if you figure them in terms
of total energy for a day of riding. After 10 hours it might be like
an extra 1000 foot hill.

For charging during daylight, It wouldn't be that hard to design an
accelerometer into the circuit which would kick it on on sensing
deceleration, which would indicat that you are either braking or going
down hill. Either way that's harvesting free energy that would
otherwise go into your brakes or extra air resistance. Charging time
is greatly reduced, but it is not a work burden.

[kG]

>As opposed to the broken wiring, uncommon connectors, intermittent
>lighting, bound-up hubs and expensive/non-interchangeable wheels that
>I've heard about on this list, among other things.

yeah...valid... but rare.
I know the rule used to be "carrying a spare bulb constitutes a
backup"... not sure how that translates now that LED gen. lights are
becoming more prevalent...
But, that was another "plus". I've seen guys recrimping connectors at
controls, though, and am of the opinion that good soldering, good
cable routing, and other precautions go a long way. It's not
something to be "tossed onto the bike for the weekend".
Eight seasons on brevet and daily commuting with a generator system,
no issues (knock, knock). But, I still run a helmet light for backup
- I've been fortunate enough to not have had to use it as a primary
light.

For "must finish" events, a "normal" wheel and charged Niterider LED
light is in the wife's trunk - and if it's ever *that* bad, I can
call: "...honey? You know that trip to France we're gonna take?... I
need you to meet me at the Stop-n-Go in xxxx, please." Never had to
make that call, tho. Why not run the Niterider? Beam pattern and run-
time.

This is floating off topic, however... but that's my take for those
that asked about the experience...
Overall, it's MARVELOUS.

[Kole Kantner]

Kitty,

I posted a message here a month or so back about a hub generator adapter
I was working on to charge my Garmin 705. I buy a basic car charger
adapter on eBay for around $4 delivered and add a few parts to convert
the hub AC to DC and protect from over voltages. I have made up about 6
different prototypes with varying amounts of protection and options. A
couple of us used it last week on the Sydney Melbourne SM1200 ride and
it worked fabulously for us. The Garmin in tcx course mode is a great
help for following the cue sheet. I'm a bit embarrassed to say that I
never even looked at the cue sheet during the ride, although I was very
familiar with it after creating the tcx course. Not having to worry
about charging the Garmin was huge help, similar to the advantage of a
generator light over battery lights.

Over voltage protection is the biggest challenge I still have not fully
addressed. I always run with my eDeluxe headlight on at all times for
safety so excessive voltage is not generally a problem for me. However,
some are adverse to the extra 5% or 10% drag on the ride and I
understand why they would want to turn it off during the day. Some of
the thyristor protectors I use work well at cutting out power above
23mph and restoring it when the speed drops below that. However the
smaller and less expensive ones cut out at above 10-15mph with no light
and never turn on again until the bicycle comes to a complete stop. I
recently added a waterproof power switch to the adapter and then noticed
that the LED eDeluxe light is noticeably a bit brighter with the power
adapter turned off. I now generally run with the light on at all times
and turn off the power adapter at night. The Garmin can run for at
least 12 hours with the back light on and charges up fully in 6 hours or
so of day riding, so that is pretty good for me. The power adapter core
circuit may be able to handle up to nearly 35V, but I am currently
cutting it off at the official max of 24V since that is the nearest
rated Zener protector I could fine. I may try changing that to 28V or
30V which might give me a few more mph, although I don't know that it
really matters if it reliably turns back on when the speed drops below
23mph. I really like the power switch, but there isn't space on the
main circuit if the large reliable protector is used. The other person
using the adapter on SM1200 didn't have the power switch and he had to
pull the plug out of the Garmin on steep night climbs to get enough
light. One time he lost his group when he paused at the top to plug it
back in. I use a SON 20R hub which may not have as high a voltage as
the more common 28R. My partner on the ride used a SON 28R hub and I
think his power adapter was cutting out below 23mph when he forgot to
turn on his light.

I am pretty sure you could use the adapter with both headlight and
taillight powered and running at slightly reduced brightness. The LED
lights have very linear degradation in output as the current drops. The
main issue is whether the power adapter gets enough voltage to charge
the Garmin. While it is rated at 12-24V it works well down to just over
6V. Below 6V it looks like the Garmin is powered, but the battery
discharges without any meaningful charging from the hub. I haven't
measured the power usage of the adapter precisely due to all the
variables, but some measurements hint at a power rating of around 1W to
1.5W, leaving 1.5W to 2W for the headlight. That seems to fit well with
the brightness reduction I have observed. When the Garmin is fully
charged it is rated at around 1/2W, but the adapter is clearly using
more than that since the headlight is always dimmed a bit, even when the
Garmin is fully charged. It is a pretty basic switching circuit that
likely is not as efficient as the 80-90% the higher quality units can
achieve. The price and convenience certainly are far better than either
the Pedal Power or the eWerkz units. Without the power switch it is
barely visible taped under the top tube or hanging from the brake
cables. Even with a power switch and a blue status LED it is still
relatively small and unobtrusive.

In rainy conditions I use silicone dielectric compound to protect the
terminals on the Garmin from damaging corrosion that can prevent future
data connections to a computer. The adapter also works well to charge
cell phones that have the same mini-usb socket as the Garmin.

As soon as I get caught up a bit at work after the 10 days absence for
SM1200 I'll try to take some photos and document the process for making
the unit. If you are willing to ride with lights on all the time I can
also send you one of my test units to try. I currently do not have a
powered taillight, but I would like to try one and I'm curious how the
adapter would work with it.

--Kole--

[Kole Kantner]

Bruce,

I understand some of what you are saying, but running out of batteries
or occasionally worrying about headlight battery charge level on an 85
hour ride is much worse than having to carefully disconnect the standard
soldered spade terminals off of my SON 20R when taking off the wheel.
Those that don't stop or sleep much really have few opportunities to
charge up batteries and a generator is really a dramatic help for them.
I am currently looking for alternate connectors that will make removal
from the wheel much easier. The mini Tamiya connectors look like they
might work well. Mounting the light on the quick release nut is nice
for various reasons, but it makes separating the y-splitters to the
Garmin charger more of a challenge when removing the wheel. Another
advantage of the SON 20R beyond the lighter weight is that it can use
the same spoke length as the rear Shimano wheels for emergency repairs.
Of course a fiber spoke is much more useful, particularly for drive side
failures on the rear wheel.

I saw a recent post mentioning full brightness requiring 18-20mph on the
SON 20R. That has not been my experience at all and I suspect that
figure referred to incandescent lights like the E6 and probably were for
kph instead of mph in any case. The LED lights have very good
performance at low speeds. I get enough light to ride by until I can no
longer keep the bike steady under 2mph or so.

--Kole--

[Kole Kantner]

I wonder if Shimano used to build an internal regulator into their hubs
that shunted off any excess voltage? That might explain why the drag
stayed pretty constant with the light on or off. I know some of their
newer dynohubs have much lower non-powered rolling resistance. I have
also recently seen a Shimano voltage regulator available for sale to use
with Shimano dynohubs, and it might be for the newer hubs that don't
have it integrated any more. I have a hard time imagining where that
extra power would go without some sort of regulator circuit or really
much poorer powered rolling resistance.

--Kole--

[Kole Kantner]

Unless you are using an incandescent light the SON 20R is currently the
best from my experience and research. The price is somewhat more than a
good Shimano hub, but I think it is worth it. Although availability can
be difficult at time. Mail order options are pretty much limited to
Peter White

--Kole--

[Greg Merritt]

As I understand, Peter is the official distributor for the U.S. Your
LBS should be able to through Peter and resell to you under terms
similar to the distribution of other parts.

-Greg

[Ian Boehm]

Kole Kantner wrote:
> Unless you are using an incandescent light the SON 20R is currently the
> best from my experience and research. The price is somewhat more than a
> good Shimano hub, but I think it is worth it.

G'day Kole.

As far as I know there is absolutely no reason that a SON 20R cannot be
used to power an incandescent light. It is rated (conservatively) at 6V
3W just like the older SONs we know and love that will drive two 6V 3W
halogen lamps if asked.

Pleased to meet you at Sydney - Melbourne 1200 and congratulations on
your sucess in that venture. Keep the rubber side down.


--


Cheers
__o
_`\<,
...(*)/(*)

Ian Boehm

[WillemJ]

We have a bike with a SON 28 and a bike with a SON 20 (not the 20R),
both with edeluxes. Yes the light comes on marginally slower on the
SON 20, but with led headlights it means nothing in terms of real
cycling. The difference in resistance with lights on can be felt,
however. So I think that a SON for 20 inch wheels is the best choice
for most rando riders, unless you also want to use the hub to charge
batteries, or want to run dual edeluxes/Cyo's. If you do not like the
connectors and the wiring, wait for the new deluxe verion of the SON
20 R, with axle connectors. You may need a new bike or new front fork,
however.
Willem

On Dec 6, 4:18 am, Kole Kantner <kkant...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Unless you are using an incandescent light the SON 20R is currently the
> best from my experience and research.  The price is somewhat more than a
> good Shimano hub, but I think it is worth it. Although availability can
> be difficult at time.  Mail order options are pretty much limited to
> Peter White
>
> --Kole--
>
> David wrote:
> > I think I figured out the bit where you peddle and the light comes on ;)
>
> > So how much more effort is it to move or is it not noticeable?
>
> > Also what hubs are everyone using - which is a good one to try?
>
> > Thanks
>
> > D
>
> > --------------------------------------------------

> > From: "Steve Palincsar" <palin...@his.com>

> > Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:21 AM

> > To: "Greg Merritt" <greg.merr...@gmail.com>

[Wesley Cheney]

I'm specc'ing up a dream bike/camera sled for shooting documentaries on the road, based upon a Slingshot MTB folding frame & an ExtraCycle extension in the rear.  I want to be able to mount cameras, as well as a couple extra lights, front & rear facing.  Powering a 7" LCD field monitor as well would be a plus. I want a bike that can ride & shoot all-weather, day & night, off-road & on, therefore disc brakes are mandatory. I would accept the extra drag of a higher-output hub dynamo in order to avoid carrying multiple batteries (simplify, simplify).

Problem is, I'm an artist, not an electrical engineer. I'd be happy to contract the wiring to someone who knows what they're doing.  

Does anyone know anybody who would be competent to take on a job like this?

Are there any recommendations on disc-mount dynamo hubs? For a variety of reasons rim brakes are simply not an option. I'm looking for a hub that will perform as well as a Brooks saddle or Time pedals...

Any thoughts?

Wes

Fotobywes.blogspot.com
Wescheneyweddings.com

*Stupid Hurts*
*Safety First*

[Steve Lange]

For what it's worth, I own three Shimano dynamo hubs, one on each of three bikes: DH-3D71 on the Xtracycle, DH-3N72 on the Cross-Check commuter, and a DH-3N80 which will soon be going on the fixed gear and possibly onto my road bike in the future.  The Xtracycle uses a Lumotec IQ Fly, while the Cross-Check and fixed gear both have the IQ Cyo. (I prefer the performance & looks of the Cyo versus the Fly)

It's possible these particular bikes are too coarse in general to notice it, but for what it's worth I cannot subjectively detect any drag whatsoever with the lights on or off when riding either the Xtracycle or the Cross-Check.  Haven't gotten the fixed gear setup going yet, so maybe I'll experience it there. There is a very mild "buzzing" felt through the bars at higher speeds (around 30mph+) but in my normal 15-20mph cruising I do not experience it.

I've been running the Xtracycle setup for about a year and a half now, and the Cross-Check for about eight months. Both have been absolutely reliable to date. I love the convenience of a dynamo hub with a good light setup. 

Your mileage may vary but until I have a disappointment, it's hard for me to see the value proposition to justify the added cost of the SON & Edelux over the Shimano / IQ Cyo. Why pay nearly 100% more to get only 5-10% better performance?

Steve Lange

[jake Kassen]

Wesley Cheney wrote:
> I'm specc'ing up a dream bike/camera sled for shooting documentaries on
> the road, based upon a Slingshot MTB folding frame & an ExtraCycle
> extension in the rear. I want to be able to mount cameras, as well as a
> couple extra lights, front & rear facing. Powering a 7" LCD field
> monitor as well would be a plus. I want a bike that can ride & shoot
> all-weather, day & night, off-road & on, therefore disc brakes are
> mandatory. I would accept the extra drag of a higher-output hub dynamo
> in order to avoid carrying multiple batteries (simplify, simplify).

A lot of people have made camera bikes over the years. I've spoken to
some people who make a living off it. I've built the below Super 16
camera mount to use on a friend's film:

http://www.jkassen.org/Super16bike.jpg

For the same film I built a trailer for a camera operator:

http://www.jkassen.org/Bike-trailer-camera.jpg

The biggest question is how large of a camera do you plan on mounting?
I'm assuming you're talking about something more professional then small
"handycam" type cameras -- something in the 5-10 lbs range? One option
is to contact someone who makes forks and racks and ask them to build
you something custom. Another option would be to modify something like
the ANT bike listed below:

http://antbikemike.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/bikes-080.jpg

Mike (Ant Bike Mike) can make ones of these with disc brakes and shocks.
He can probably make a rack suitable for the job too. But it ain't cheap
and the wait is long.

I've found the hardest part is getting a stable shot. A freshly paved
road might seem very smooth but the shots still bounce around if using a
professional camera. For smooth video you really need the camera to be
mounted to a steadicam or at least have an operator holding the camera.
Some of the new cargo bikes would allow an operator to sit/stand on the
front or back.

As for the power, I don't think you're going to want to power anything
directly from the hub. They are fine for lights and maybe small GPS
units but the requirements for field monitors are higher. I'd suggest
getting one of the premade battery charges and use that.

Jake "Video" Kassen

[Greg Merritt]

In practice, how do the bearing service intervals compare between SON
and Shimano? I seem to recall that the SON28 has its first regularly-
scheduled maintenance at 50,000km. The non-dynamo Shimano hubs I've
had require bearing service much more frequently.

-Greg, part of a SON + Shimano dynohub household

[Wesley Cheney]

Yep, jake, I know well how deceptively smooth a paved road can look... I'm looking at cameras in the 7-12lb range: Panasonic HVX, Nikon D3s, etc.

I've noticed a big improvement in camera stability with the longer wheelbase of a tandem: in fact, I want to shoot from the stoker seat of my tandem sometime. But solo ops are also necessary, which is why I'm looking at the XtraCycle & "mid-suspension" of a Slingshot frame. My attempts to shoot from my BOB trailer have been mediocre.

Powering all electronic gear isn't necessarily practical, but I'd be happy if a dynamo hub would provide enough juice to recharge batteries on the road.

Any recommendations on an electrical engineer?

Wes

Fotobywes.blogspot.com
Wescheneyweddings.com

*Stupid Hurts*
*Safety First*

jake Kassen wrote:

Wesley Cheney wrote:
> I'm specc'ing up a dream bike/camera sled for shooting documentaries on
> the road, based upon a Slingshot MTB folding frame & an ExtraCycle
> extension in the rear. I want to be able to mount cameras, as well as a
> couple extra lights, front & rear facing. Powering a 7" LCD field
> monitor as well would be a plus. I want a bike that can ride & shoot
> all-weather, day & night, off-road & on, therefore disc brakes are
> mandatory. I would accept the extra drag of a higher-output hub dynamo
> in order to avoid carrying multiple batteries (simplify, simplify).

A lot of people have made camera bikes over the years. I've spoken to
some people who make a living off it. I've built the below Super 16
camera mount to use on a friend's film:

http://www.jkassen.org/Super16bike.jpg

For the same film I built a trailer for a camera operator:

http://www.jkassen.org/Bike-trailer-camera.jpg

The biggest question is how large of a camera do you plan on mounting?
I'm assuming you're talking about something more professional then small
"handycam" type cameras -- something in the 5-10 lbs range? One option
is to contact someone who makes forks and racks and ask them to build
you something custom. Another option would be to modify something like
the ANT bike listed below:

http://antbikemike.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/bikes-080.jpg

Mike (Ant Bike Mike) can make ones of these with disc brakes and shocks

[Wesley Cheney]

I've had decent results with small vidcams, the UniClamp, & a handful of zipties.

I've been using the Nikon D90 & looking forward to the D3s.

Wes

Fotobywes.blogspot.com
Wescheneyweddings.com

*Stupid Hurts*
*Safety First*

---

jake Kassen wrote:

Good luck! I have an xtracycle but I haven't tried shooting anything
from it. I'm starting to play with the new Canon Mark IIs (D5 & D7)
Very interesting things are possible with these since they are
relatively light and small but have very good video. Over Xmas I'm going
to Germany with a very small video camera -- small enough to be bar
mounted. The video won't be great but it will be fun to play with
something that dosen't require a custom setup.

Jake


Wesley Cheney wrote:
> More is better...bigger wheels, fatter tires, longer wheelbase: all
> contribute to a smoother ride. And the lower the camera is on the bike,
> the less motion it displays perpendicular to the direction of travel.
> Hence my desire to go XtraCycle.
>
> The best on-bike footage I've shot was in my MTB with 29x2.35" slick
> tires. All that air volume really smooths out the road.
>
> Thanks for the quick response! I love the bike pix! If I decide to
> depart from the XtraCycle path, I'll drop you a note: my goal is to
> design & build a bike-camera rig that can be shipped in a standard bike
> box: no special packaging. And since I'm 6'5", that's a tall order...

>
> Wes
>
>
> Fotobywes.blogspot.com
> Wescheneyweddings.com
>
> *Stupid Hurts*
> *Safety First*

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ingle, Bruce]

> running out of batteries or occasionally worrying about
> headlight battery charge level on an 85 hour ride is
> much worse than having to carefully disconnect the
> standard soldered spade terminals off of my SON 20R
> when taking off the wheel. Those that don't stop or
> sleep much really have few opportunities to charge up
> batteries and a generator is really a dramatic help for them.

I circumvented the battery problems on my last 1200km by carrying enough
battery power for the entire ride. In my case, the battery consisted of
a pair of lithium D cells that cost $1 each, are most likely at least a
quarter-century old, weigh 6 oz total and still aren't exhausted despite
a few uses since.

I built the LED lighting head several years ago for <$100 in parts, and
it's definitely no longer state of the art, so I'd doubt the technology
is inaccessible and/or unaffordable. State of the art lighting only
requires a quarter the battery power of my system to generate the same
amount of light; a 3 oz battery with such lighting should be fine for a
substantially more inhospitable 1200km than the one I rode.

I certainly wouldn't claim that battery power alone is right for
everybody, but I'd be disappointed to see it marginalized on this forum.

- Bruce

[li...@jkassen.org]

> -------Original Message-------
> From: Ingle, Bruce <Bruce...@gdc4s.com>

> I certainly wouldn't claim that battery power alone is right for
> everybody, but I'd be disappointed to see it marginalized on this forum.
>

I'd agree. I rode all of PBP in 2007 on battery lights and never once changed the batteries and this was using the lights all night, every night for the full 89h. I build my own lights and for $10 more then cost for a dynamo light I can add a good regulator and have the same output with batteries. Dynamos are sometimes more convent but not nearly as economical.

Jake

[Steve Lange]

On Sun, Dec 6, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Greg Merritt <greg.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

In practice, how do the bearing service intervals compare between SON
and Shimano?  I seem to recall that the SON28 has its first regularly-
scheduled maintenance at 50,000km.  The non-dynamo Shimano hubs I've
had require bearing service much more frequently.

I'm not a mechanic and Shimano's online tech docs are mute on the subject of service intervals, but from what I understand, the DH-3N71/72/80 hubs use the same cups & cones as Ultegra hubs, so presumably would require the same service intervals at least for those components. 

That said, Shimano dynamo hubs *are* user-serviceable, as opposed to the SON hubs which must be sent back to them for service (to the tune of $110 + shipping, and may require a wheel rebuild, per Peter White's website).

Regardless, may we all be so lucky to ride so much as to make the relevance of these service intervals one of our deciding factors!

Best,

Steve

[Greg Merritt]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 8:01 AM, <li...@jkassen.org> wrote:
>
>>  From: Ingle, Bruce <Bruce...@gdc4s.com>
>
>>  I certainly wouldn't claim that battery power alone is right for
>>  everybody, but I'd be disappointed to see it marginalized on this forum.
>
> I'd agree.

Ditto. :)

> Dynamos are sometimes more convent but not nearly as economical.

Well, when I made the decision for my own riding, I found that the
convenience itself was a sort of economy.

My commute bike is my rando bike -- or is it the other way around?
When I lock it up outside at the store, I don't have to remember to
take off battery lights that cost hundreds of dollars, or have to fuss
with putting them back on again when I return to the bike five minutes
later. My hub is integrated into the Kryptonited front wheel, and the
lights are bolted on.

Also, during a brevet, the generator lighting system requires zero
time and zero mindshare in normal operation.

This is important to me. I try to do what I can to completely
minimize having to fuss with gear at all during a brevet. I know that
battery lights require very very little attention during a brevet, but
very little is somewhat more than zero, and that's important to me.

I even gave up my preferred clipless road pedals for mountain bike
pedals, since dealing with the coffe shop covers indoors or when
walking in the dirt was just one more thing requiring attention.
Sure, it was only a tiny bit of time and mental energy, but zero is
less. :)

Vive le choix!

-Greg

[Ben Kraft]

> I'm not a mechanic and Shimano's online tech docs are mute on the subject of
> service intervals, but from what I understand, the DH-3N71/72/80 hubs use
> the same cups & cones as Ultegra hubs, so presumably would require the same
> service intervals at least for those components.
>
> That said, Shimano dynamo hubs *are* user-serviceable, as opposed to the SON
> hubs which must be sent back to them for service (to the tune of $110 +
> shipping, and may require a wheel rebuild, per Peter White's website).

While user-serviceable, Shimano does not necessarily stock replacement
parts for the hubs. The cones on my DH-3D71 were too tight when I
bought it. When I rebuilt the hub a year later, this had ruined one
of the cones, and the replacement part was not available from Shimano.

I'll clean the cone up on a lathe, and buy a SON hub for my next bike.
Messing with this junk is not worth 100$.

-Ben

[Ken Freeman]

Touche!

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Mark Schoonover <mark.sc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Unless you're trying to sell your pedal powered generator - then you'd be peddling it! :)

Mark Schoonover
http://surlyrando.blogspot.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/markschoonover
Cell: 619-368-0099

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Ken Freeman <kenfre...@gmail.com> wrote:

pedal, not peddle.

On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 10:51 AM, David <da...@dotnetland.co.uk> wrote:

I think I figured out the bit where you peddle and the light comes on ;)

So how much more effort is it to move or is it not noticeable?

Also what hubs are everyone using - which is a good one to try?

Thanks

D

--------------------------------------------------

From: "Steve Palincsar" <pali...@his.com>

Sent: Thursday, December 03, 2009 4:21 AM

To: "Greg Merritt" <greg.m...@gmail.com>

Cc: "randon" <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Randon] Using a generator hub to recharge batteries?

> On Thu, 2009-12-03 at 00:06 -0800, Greg Merritt wrote:

--
Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to randon-un...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/randon/

--

[Kole Kantner]

Bruce,

Thanks for mentioning those old Lithium D cells.  While incredibly expensive when released they also had fabulous capacity and longevity.  Where did you get them for $1 each?  Is that special still available?

--Kole--

[littlecirclesvt.com :: mike beganyi]

I'm thinking a tandem trike or maybe a Bilenky Viewpoint tandem setup
- either with a steadicam mount. With the Bilenky your stoker can sit
infront and pedal but pay attention to the filming - but with the
trike you get an extra wheel for a second dyno to power your
gadgets.... ;)

Wesley Cheney wrote:
> Yep, jake, I know well how deceptively smooth a paved road can look... I'm looking at cameras in the 7-12lb range: Panasonic HVX, Nikon D3s, etc.
>

> I've noticed a big improvement in camera stability with the longer wheelbase of a tandem: in fact, I want to shoot from the stoker seat of my tandem sometime. But solo ops are also necessary, which is why I'm looking at the XtraCycle &amp; "mid-suspension" of a Slingshot frame. My attempts to shoot from my BOB trailer have been mediocre.

>
> Powering all electronic gear isn't necessarily practical, but I'd be happy if a dynamo hub would provide enough juice to recharge batteries on the road.
>
> Any recommendations on an electrical engineer?
>
> Wes
>
> Fotobywes.blogspot.com
> Wescheneyweddings.com
>
> *Stupid Hurts*

> *Safety First*jake Kassen wrote:
>
> Wesley Cheney wrote:
>
> > I'm specc'ing up a dream bike/camera sled for shooting documentaries on
>

> > the road, based upon a Slingshot MTB folding frame &amp; an ExtraCycle

>
> > extension in the rear. I want to be able to mount cameras, as well as a
>

> > couple extra lights, front &amp; rear facing. Powering a 7" LCD field
>
> > monitor as well would be a plus. I want a bike that can ride &amp; shoot
>
> > all-weather, day &amp; night, off-road &amp; on, therefore disc brakes are

>
> > mandatory. I would accept the extra drag of a higher-output hub dynamo
>
> > in order to avoid carrying multiple batteries (simplify, simplify).
>
>
>
> A lot of people have made camera bikes over the years. I've spoken to
>
> some people who make a living off it. I've built the below Super 16
>
> camera mount to use on a friend's film:
>
>
>
> http://www.jkassen.org/Super16bike.jpg
>
>
>
> For the same film I built a trailer for a camera operator:
>
>
>
> http://www.jkassen.org/Bike-trailer-camera.jpg
>
>
>
> The biggest question is how large of a camera do you plan on mounting?
>
> I'm assuming you're talking about something more professional then small
>
> "handycam" type cameras -- something in the 5-10 lbs range? One option
>
> is to contact someone who makes forks and racks and ask them to build
>
> you something custom. Another option would be to modify something like
>
> the ANT bike listed below:
>
>
>
> http://antbikemike.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/bikes-080.jpg
>
>
>

> Mike (Ant Bike Mike) can make ones of these with disc brakes and shocks.

[Wesley Cheney]

Hmm... I guess that would a tadpole trike: 2 front wheels?

Good idea!

Wes

Fotobywes.blogspot.com
Wescheneyweddings.com

*Stupid Hurts*
*Safety First*

littlecirclesvt.com :: mike beganyi wrote:

I'm thinking a tandem trike or maybe a Bilenky Viewpoint tandem setup
- either with a steadicam mount. With the Bilenky your stoker can sit
infront and pedal but pay attention to the filming - but with the
trike you get an extra wheel for a second dyno to power your
gadgets.... ;)

Wesley Cheney wrote:

> Yep, jake, I know well how deceptively smooth a paved road can look.. I'm looking at cameras in the 7-12lb range: Panasonic HVX, Nikon D3s, etc.

[Dark Horse]

The shimano part# for that cone is Y20E-98030. It's used in the 3D-71
and the Alfine. The Alfine at least is current production, and if QBP
doesn't carry it (they don't), then Shimano NA almost certainly does.
Even Shimano supports their stuff better than that.

>
> While user-serviceable, Shimano does not necessarily stock replacement
> parts for the hubs.  The cones on my  DH-3D71 were too tight when I
> bought it.  When I rebuilt the hub a year later, this had ruined one
> of the cones, and the replacement part was not available from Shimano.
>
> I'll clean the cone up on a lathe, and buy a SON hub for my next bike.
>  Messing with this junk is not worth 100$.
>
> -Ben

Dark Horse

[Dark Horse]

I don't know about 1$/ea, but Lithium D's aren't that hard to find.
Batteryspace and Batteriesplus both carry something suitable in the
3-4k MaH range.

http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo432600pdsizecell32v3000mah60arate96wh.aspx

http://www.batteriesplus.com/pc-34093-34093-XL-200F.aspx

I suspect that Bruce is talking about the old 'TekCell' batteries,
with 14-20k MaH capacities. They're available, but not, alas, for 1$/
ea.

http://www.litewave.co.uk/tekcell_batteries.asp

http://www.master-instruments.com.au/products/59290/LSH20.html

On Dec 7, 10:28 am, Kole Kantner <kkant...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bruce,
> Thanks for mentioning those old Lithium D cells.  While incredibly expensive when released they also had fabulous capacity and longevity.  Where did you get them for $1 each?  Is that special still available?
> --Kole--

> Ingle, Bruce wrote:running out of batteries or occasionally worrying about headlight battery charge level on an 85 hour ride is much worse than having to carefully disconnect the standard soldered spade terminals off of my SON 20R when taking off the wheel. Those that don't stop or sleep much really have few opportunities to charge up batteries and a generator is really a dramatic help for them.I circumvented the battery problems on my last 1200km by carrying enough battery power for the entire ride. In my case, the battery consisted of a pair of lithium D cells that cost $1 each, are most likely at least a quarter-century old, weigh 6 oz total and still aren't exhausted despite a few uses since. I built the LED lighting head several years ago for <$100 in parts, and it's definitely no longer state of the art, so I'd doubt the technology is inaccessible and/or unaffordable. State of the art lighting only requires a quarter the battery power of my system to generate the same amount of light; a 3 oz battery with such lighting should be fine for a substantially more inhospitable 1200km than the one I rode. I certainly wouldn't claim that battery power alone is right for everybody, but I'd be disappointed to see it marginalized on this forum. - Bruce

Dark Horse

[Ingle, Bruce]

> Where did you get them for $1 each? Is that special still available?

I bought them as expired 3-packs from an outfit in Australia 7 to 9
years ago, so it's pretty unlikely.

~$8/cell is the best deal I can find with a minimum of work today...you
may have better luck keeping your eyes peeled for expired BA-5590A/U's:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190347009762&rvr_id=&
crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=W2F%3F&GUID=6e3120451250a0e203c3e643ffd2861e&ite
mid=190347009762&ff4=263602_263622

or

http://www.ebay.com/

-> BA-5590A/U -> Search

(Sorry, no tinyurling here.)

- Bruce

[Ingle, Bruce]

> I suspect that Bruce is talking about the old 'TekCell' batteries

Saft LO 26 SX (lithium-sulfur dioxide primary cells):

http://www.saftbatteries.com/Produit_LO_G_cell_ranges_300_25/Language/en
-US/Default.aspx

I've never tried the Lithium Thionyl Chloride cells (Tekcell, Saft LSH,
Xeno) because they typically haven't had sufficient power density for
high-powered lighting, but perhaps they may be more practical with the
latest LEDs. They're typically designed for computer memory backup,
which is a very low-current application.

The Batteryspace cell is a lithium rechargeable (Li/FePO4); I may
consider it after my NiMHs give up, although I haven't been impressed
with other lithium rechargeables (lithium-ion).

- Bruce

[Ingle, Bruce]

> The thing that kills these hubs is that they are usually
> shipped from the factory adjusted a little too tight

15 years ago, I bought a bike with new Shimano hubs which required
repacking soon after purchase; the mechanic found the grease was packed
with aluminum shavings, presumably because the hub shell was never
cleaned between internal machining (quite a bit, since it was a Parallax
hubset) and assembly.

I'd expect quality control has improved since then, but one can never be
certain.

- Bruce

[Kole Kantner]

Yes, I was just looking for the $1 lithium D cells.  Otherwise D size is not that interesting to me at this time.  Sometimes an outfit will have surplus specials like that, but generally primary cells are not economical for meaningful bike lighting.  Of course if I had better eyesight dim lights might be a viable option. An eDelux is right on the edge of acceptable in rain on a fast descent for me.  I am looking at adding a much brighter supplementary light with a very light rechargeable battery to use occasionally when more illumination is needed.

Here are a few items I am considering:

Nightlightning products generally have poor mounting options but great light controls.  I have the iBlaastII and it has very good battery life, but mounting to the bike is awful.
http://www.nightlightning.co.nz/adventure_lighting_products.htm

K-Lite battery lights have the same excellent bFlex controller as NightLightning products, possibly with a better engineered lighthead and mounting system.  Kerry also has a dynohub versions for the same price. This may be the brightest dynohub light currently available, with much higher rolling resistance on the bright setting.  I have not seen pictures of wiring or controls for the dynohub version.
http://www.cncdelite.com

The K-Lite battery version and NightLightning products run with 14.4V 4-cell lithium and might require a boost controller to recharge from a dynohub without excessive rolling resistance.

Geoman Gear has some inexpensive bright Chinese bicycle lights, but I have heard that brightness is around 100% overrated, quality is poor and water resistance non-existent out of the box.  The mounting details on the MagicShine look similar to the superb Lupine o-ring system.
MagicShine 500lm bike light:
http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_41&products_id=153
MagicShine flashlight with bike mount:
http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_41&products_id=155

This Airbike light runs on a 3.7V lithium ion circuit and could be easily recharged by a dynohub.
Airbike 500lm bike light: (I have not seen this before now)
http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_20_25&products_id=104

Geoman Gear also sells the very high quality and highly expensive Lupine bike lights that run on a 7.2V lithium ion circuit that would probably be the most efficient to recharge with a dynohub.  I have used the Lupine Betty light and it is very nice in most respects on brighter settings, but it does not give as much light as the Night Lightning products on dim settings for long distance use. The Lupine Tesla 4 is supposed to be very nice for a smaller bright light, but it is a bit expensive for what I'm looking for:
http://www.geomangear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=4_19_22&products_id=127

None of these lights have the preferred shaped beam of the eDelux and the symmetric beams generally waste a lot of light above the road.  I might appreciate them more if I did mountain biking in the dark.

--Kole--

[Ingle, Bruce]

> None of these lights have the preferred shaped beam of the
> eDelux and the symmetric beams generally waste a lot of
> light above the road.

More important, the wide angle reflectors/lenses for mountain biking are likely to give you a wider beam than is useful on the road, which can easily cut the distance you can see down the road to a fraction of the distance you could see with the same LED output and a narrower beam. I find a ~5-8° round beam with smooth transitions and some spillover is fine for road riding.

Seeing further for the same LED output means you can also use less LED output for the same distance, which in turn decreases your power requirements and allows you to use a smaller and lighter battery. This is what would allow the user of a well-designed system with current LED technology to conserve enough power to ride a 1200km using a single disposable lithium camera battery (CR223).

- Bruce