Tubeless tires and randonneuring??

[RipVan Rando]

Swapping to tubeless on two wheelsets has been a mixed bag.  This is my early take on the tubeless  transformation.....

The Good

The Orange sealant has amazingly sealed 5-7mm gashes.  Remarkable.  I'm not talking pinholes.

Schwalbe Pro One in 28 mm at 60-70 psi is a comfy and fast ride

The Specialized 26mm S-Works tubeless was easy to mount and seat the bead (using a CO2 cartridge or compressor).   I only bought one to try 

The Bad

Schwalbe Pro One in 28 mm has flatted three times in a month.  I had a total of two flats last year riding Compass EL, Vittoria EVO Corsa, Contin GP4000si, and Veloflex Master-not exactly flat resistant tires.  Three tires are going into tomorrow's trash.  The 28mm Schwalbes start ok but puff up to 31 mm after riding for a bit.  I learned this chain stay dragging experience when I would jam over hills while on a 400k.  Probably a good tire for Grande Fondue riders but it is not the best tire for randonneuring in my somewhat limited experience (two 200K, two 300k and one 400K on them).

Mounting and seating the bead on some rims is PITA hard.

The Specialized S-Works tubeless tires are silly expensive (and scarce as hen's teeth) and are not as comfortable as the Schwalbe. 

Getting the rim conversion sealed can take a lot of patience and one rim in particular would not allow the tape to stick despite communication with the manufacturer-I suspect they used mold release agent or something that even lacquer thinner would not take out. 

 

When I have flatted, I would stop and spin the wheel to allow the sealant to escape and within 20-30 seconds the hole has been sealed.  Small holes from glass just get sealed without my knowledge or until I check my tires at the end of a ride. When I do flat,  I have just topped up the tire pressure on the "sealed" tire and been on my way. I also carry a spare tube, superglue, and booting material as is always my practice but have not needed to use them.  In some ways I did not really flat yet with my tubeless tires because the punctures have been sealed albeit leaving probably only 20-30 psi in the tire but this would be a big positive at 0 dark thirty in the rain with a looming control closing up the road.   If the tire did not seal, I would have been putting a tube into it like a normal flat tire repair but with the downside of a more difficult mount due to stronger beads on tubeless tires.

I'm thinking of trying the Compass Bon Jon EL tubeless tires although they are a bit wide for my needs but on paper they are perfect for many riders.

Bottom line?  Jury is out for me running tubeless on Brevets until I find a more suitable tire that is around 28 mm true width or maybe 29 mm max.  But the potential is there.

[Bill Gobie]

Some Compass tires have a reputation for stretching, so watch out for that. I think it is generally the larger ones. In my experience the Barlow Pass stretches, the Elk Pass does not. Can't say specifically about the Bon Jon.

Why do you carry superglue? To attach a boot? What do you use for a boot? Isn't superglue too brittle?

Grande Fondue! Good one.

Bill

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[RipVan Rando]

Gorilla tape and those special Park patches for a boot.  I just put a long strip of it on my top tube just in case it is needed but I only needed it once when I destroy a Continental sidewall. The superglue is to close any outer skin wounds or tubeless tire tread holes.

The reason I wish 29 mm width at the most is so I can swap wheels from bike to bike.  My "rando" bike can handle 38mm while my fast bikes are only good to 28mm or so.

[Eric Nichols]

I'd be interested to hear your experience (or the experience of others) if and when you have to put an emergency tube in a road tubeless tire.

In my limited experience (helping two stranded tubeless riders roadside), getting a tubeless tire to seat when it's wrapped around a tube is much easier said than done. Like close to impossible. Granted both instances were with narrow (25 mm) tires, which make life more difficult in all sorts of ways. 

I take pride in my tire-changing technique... have worked in a bike shop... don't carry and almost never touch a tire lever... and can generally fix a tire in a few minutes. But putting a tube in a tubeless tire to help fellow a randonneur keep going has almost been my undoing.  Usually the bead won't seat and the tire develops a dangerous lumpiness that will only tolerate partial inflation.

On the other end of the size spectrum, I run tubeless on my fatbike and have had no problem inserting an emergency tube.

Eric

[Richard Stum | eoGEAR]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference between a tubeless tire and a regular clincher "tubed" tire?

Also, doesn't the rim have to be tubeless specific or at least be sealed with a speical tape?

Cheers,
Richard Stum
Living in the Mountains of Central Utah
Rap Sheet: Salt Lake Randonneurs RBA | Rando Richard—Blog | Strava | eoGEAR—Cycling Bags+ | 

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[RipVan Rando]

A tubeless tire can be mounted and inflated onto "tubeless ready" rims with out using a tube.  The spoke holes of the rim are sealed with specially designed rim tape and the valve stem is also specially designed to seal at the rim junction.  The valve stem has a removable core to facilitate filling the tire with 30-60 mL of sealant.  Most newer rims can be converted to tubeless.  The bead is more stout on tubeless tires and the casing has to be more airtight.  Sealant further reduces leakage.  Tubeless tires are like car tires....no tubes.  My tubeless tires lose air much more slowly than my normal, conventional clincher setups but then again, I use latex tubes for the comfort factor.    

Why bother with tubeless?  (I'm not yet sure it is worth it)

Enhanced flat protection is the primary purported benefit.  Pinch flats are impossible.  Good sealant should make goathead or glass shard flats a distant memory.  Having read innumerable stories of cyclists crossing the country, it is not unusual for tubeless riders to not flat once whereas conventional tubed clincher riders flat very often in goat head country as in a couple times per day.   To get close to similar protection good tubeless tires, one would need to ride slow and uncomfortable conventional clincher tires.  I am of the conviction that vibration is a major factor in performance degrading fatigue and therefore, I am unwilling to put hefty tires on any bike that will be used for distance type events.  My interest is protection against goat heads on a long race I am thinking of doing.

[RipVan Rando]

The tube would be my last resort if the sealant failed and tire repair fails.  CO2 cartridge to seat the bead is also part of the backup plan.  If you were using a little hand pump to seat the bead, forget it.  It is impossible.

My primary contingency should the sealant not fix the hole would be to use a Park patch and then Gorilla tape on the inner tire surface with superglue to the tread on the outside.  I have had some large cuts that sealant takes care of......bad enough that a standard conventional clincher would require booting or replacement.  Prior to going tubeless and in the prior 24,000 miles, I could count my flat total on one hand but I ride on country roads.

Tubeless is not for the faint of heart or hand when it comes to mounting them but a lot of the challenge depends on the rim and tire's tolerance stackup.  Some are just really tight and others are more manageable.

I have not given up but the jury is still out.

[AKThomas]

I am planning on trying tubeless this summer, with the Schwalbe S-One tires. They are billed as a hardier alternative to the Pro One, and are listed as 30mm. They sounded ideal for randonneuring. The only problem seems to be that they don't actually exist yet.

[RipVan Rando]

I scoured and scoured the internet for a set of the Special Ones. You are right.... they do not exist.  The 25 mm Pro Ones have been almost unobtainium, too. The S-One has some some protection under the tread and since they were designed specifically for Paris-Roubaix, one would suspect they roll fairly well.  The G one is too big and the tread is more suited to pure gravel and dirt riding.

Vittoria has a new Corsa with the G+ tread in 28mm tubeless but it is also unavailable.  I'd try a set in an instant.   28mm of corespun cotton in 320 tpi with kevlar reinforced threads in a tubeless configuration would be heaven if it is not too hard to mount and if they last an acceptable distance.  The new G+ compound has be reported to last much longer than the old rubber.  The new G+ tires also roll 25% better than the older Corsa and is now almost as fast as the Continentals but I suspect the extra comfort of the Vittorias would be faster on the real world roads.  I have a ton of miles on an older Vittoria CX and I keep thinking I need to replace it.....once it flats but I just keep tempting fate.  It is probably the only tire save some high end tubulars that exceed/rival the Compass EL tires for comfort and this is a 25 mm tire.  I can only imagine how buttery a 28mm would be.

[Keith Kohan]

I have been using tubeless tires on and off for years.  Since about 2008.  By far the best combination I've used is a Stan's 350 rim with a Schwalbe One tire.  I can inflate the tire on the Stan's rim with a hand pump.  It simply pops into place.  It is amazing.

The best sealant I've used is the Stan's.  There does seem to be a difference though I have not tried the orange sealant.

Keith Kohan

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From: RipVan Rando <ripva...@gmail.com>
To: randon <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 5:04 PM
Subject: [Randon] Re: Tubeless tires and randonneuring??

[RipVan Rando]

Thanks for the rim tip, Keith.  HED Plus was difficult to mount a Schwalbe Pro one and darned near impossible to seat the bead while HED/Speciailized combination was more manageable.  The A23 RIM and two Flo30 rims were hard to mount but they seated without much fanfare.

Based upon the following I have used Caffelatex in my latex tubes and Orange in the tubeless.  

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Things_that_Roll/Tires/Sealant_Test_-_Part_2_4155.html

Have you ever had a flat that the sealant did not repair?  If so, did you use a tube or do you repair the tire on the road?   If tubned, did the tube make seating the bead more difficult or did it pop on using a hand pump?  Thanks.

[AKThomas]

Schwalbe says the S-Ones are supposed to become available sometime in early May, so I will hold out for a few more weeks before seeking some alternative.

[Brian Moyers]

>  Based upon the following I have used Caffelatex in my latex tubes and Orange in the tubeless.  

I don't want to hijack the thread for non-tubeless talk, but 

F

​

YI, based  on some other reviews and info from the internet (I can't remember exactly what lead me to first try)  I started using Caffelatex sealant in my regular tubes about a year ago.   I still run at normal PSI and haven't changed anything else, but I get pretty good flat protection from glass and thorns.   I've had

​ ​

a 

puncture at least twice in the past year where I heard air and felt sealant coming out of the tire.  I just kept riding, and it sealed itself in a few seconds.  I like to push my luck, so I don't even change the tube when I get home, I just keep going, and It will eventually need to be replaced due to slow leaks, or eventually puncture again and not have enough sealant left to fix.  

From what I can tell there are no downsides to using the sealant in normal tubes for everyday use, and it will most certainly either save you a roadside fix, or delay the fix until you are at a control.

I use Schwalbe

 

​

tubes and Compass 700c tires - the 26mm ones for most of the year, but just changed to the 28mm.

I am interested in going tubeless, but am not ready for new wheels, etc.  I guess that is maybe what lead me to try the sealant in my tubes.

-Brian

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[Lonnie Wolff]

I have tried tubeless tires on 3 different bikes and have changed back to using tubes with all of them. They were all tubeless specific tires and rims and I gave them about a year before deciding to go back. The problems that I experienced were a more rapid loss of air pressure than a tube over time, the sealant drying out, the latex monster inside the tire, and a lot messier and more difficult repair when the sealant didn't work. Also, I am aware of at least one case where a non tubeless rated tire experienced a major failure due to apparent degradation caused by the sealant. It is just not worth the hassle, expense and other issues to save a couple of ounces. 

My current technique is to use latex sealant inside a normal tube which gives me the best of both worlds with much less hassle and mess. Even though there is a couple of ounces of weight penalty, I'm okay with that!

Lonnie Wolff

[Kenneth Samuel]

My thoughts on sealants and tubeless setups:

I don't see this mentioned very often, but the key to good sealant performance is low pressure whether with or without a tube.  My two road bike tubeless setups are Compass tires in 38 and 42mm widths. I've had good luck with Stan's sealing goathead flats with and without a tube as long as the pressure is below about 50 psi.  I agree with Lonnie that sealant in tubes works so well that tubeless is almost not worth the hassle.  One frustration I've had is finding tubes with removable cores; I live in goathead country and last summer I visited 6!!! local bike shops before I found one that stocks tubes with removable cores, unbelievable...

RE: superglue, I was on a brevet last year, 40 degrees with driving rain.  I picked up a roofing staple, the water-based sealant would not seal the huge gash because everything was so wet.  I pulled out my superglue and started globbing it into the gash.  Superglue *cures* with water, so it set up very quickly, clogging the hole enough that the sealant could do its job.  I had to stop and pump up three times over the next hour, but it held great after that.

[Eric Keller]

My LBS recommends the Bontrager sealant even though we're in the same
town as Stan's. I think it's less prone to squids, but I'm not sure.

Stan's rims have been working for me, the trough in the middle makes
tire changes relatively easy. Just push the bead down into the trough
and then the tire is fairly easy to get off. I'm a novice as far as
tubeless goes, but my MTB experience makes me a lot more interested in
converting for road. My flats over the last few years have mostly
been slow leaks and pinch flats, so having sealant available seems
like it would help a lot.

Even though the tubeless world started with what is now known as
"ghetto tubeless," anything other than full tubeless capable rims and
tires seems like a real gamble, especially with smaller tire sizes.

[RipVan Rando]

I just got my Compass El Bon Jon tubeless tires today and decided to test the mountability with my most difficult rim, the HED Belgium Plus.  I was able to mount the tire with my hands albeit it took a little effort.  I put some talcum powder and a latex tube in and pumped it up with a normal floor pump. The tire seated without fuss.  Actual width is 37.1 mm and about 31 mm height.  Before I go tubeless with the Bon Jon, I want to play around with tire pressure.  The Bon Jon is rated 90 psi max with a tube but only 60 psi running tubeless. I run the 32 mm tires at 75-80 psi rear and 60-65 psi front, so,  I am guessing I need/want 60-70 psi on the rear and 45-55 psi on the fronts for the 35mm tires but I'll mess around with it on tomorrows brevet.  But the good news is that fixing a flat with these should be no more difficult than any other tire....I guess I can take the tire jack out of my bag.  The bad news is I'm going to need to work on fender clearance

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 at 4:19:50 PM UTC-4, Eric Nichols wrote:

[dougm]

S One has been out for months but the stock comes and goes fast. FYI , on my 25 mm HED Belgium plus rims they stretch out to 33 mm. I absolutely love the ride quality at 63-65 PSI in back and 60-62 in front. My experience is on pavement only.

[AKThomas]

Where did you get the S-ones from?