Recommendations for 26 inch Rando-Wheelset:
Scott Cutshall
I may be entering my first Brevet this May, and as such am looking into outfitting my custom with a new Brevet-ready wheelset.
I know, for certain, I will be building it up with a Schmidt SON hub and a Phil rear hub [either with cassette or freewheel] but I'm not sure on rims or tires.
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated,
Thanks-
-Scott
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
Robert Magyar
It is kind of hard to help you with your question, without knowing how much you weight.
And since you mention both cassette and freewheels as options, do you have 126mm, 130mm or 135mm spacing for the rear hub?
Velocity Synergy front rim and a Velocity Synergy OC rear rim might be good choice.
Take care if you want to try any real narrow tires, as you will have less pedal clearance.
A 26 x 1.35" tire might be a good place to start with a Schwalbe Kojak Slick or Pasela Tourguard.
Bob
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2008 21:17:28 -0800
From: istanb...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Randon] Recommendations for 26 inch Rando-Wheelset:
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Mike J
> Could anyone share some thoughts/opinions on what would be a really good 26 inch wheelset for Brevets?
>
> I may be entering my first Brevet this May, and as such am looking into outfitting my custom with a new Brevet-ready wheelset.
>
> I know, for certain, I will be building it up with a Schmidt SON hub and a Phil rear hub [either with cassette or freewheel] but I'm not sure on rims or tires.
bike becoming a little twitchey if it has the usual MTB geometry. I
went with 26 x 1.25 and found the handling to be degraded. If I had
it to do over, I would go with 1.75" Paselas.
Mike Jenkins
Scott Peterson
----- Original Message -----From: Scott CutshallSent: Monday, March 03, 2008 9:17 PMSubject: [Randon] Recommendations for 26 inch Rando-Wheelset:
Dean Zimmer
Scott I hope you have better luck with 26” Mavic rims than myself. I had 2 rear Mavic 519 rims fail with cracks at the spoke nipples on the drive side spokes. These were 32H wheels with less than 6000K on them and built by a professional wheel builder. I am not a big guy (about 160 lbs). Perhaps something you should keep an eye on.
I switched to DT Swiss XR 4.1 rims, so far they have been good however a friend of mine using the same sort of bike has had a problem with cracks at the spoke eyelets same as I did with the Mavics. He is bigger and puts out a lot more torque than myself.
I also have some wheels (both 559, and 571) with Velocity rims, while they are heavier than the Mavics and DT Swiss they also appear to be bomb proof, I will be building all future wheels using Velocity rims.
As for 26” (559) tires
I have had problems with Continental GP3000’s with sidewall failures, Continental Ultra Gatorskins have been good. I will be trying my first set of Stelvios this coming season.
Dean
Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. <BR
Jeff Oh
Sarah's had good luck with the Schwalbe Stelvio 26 x 1.10's - they seem to roll fast and she's had few flats, even riding them through a wet winter. If you want something wider, I think there are plenty of choices available - just look around.
Jeff 8-)
Jeff Oh
http://soggycyclist.blogspot.com
Tim McNamara
On Mar 3, 2008, at 11:17 PM, Scott Cutshall wrote:
> Could anyone share some thoughts/opinions on what would be a really
> good 26 inch wheelset for Brevets?
>
> I may be entering my first Brevet this May, and as such am looking
> into outfitting my custom with a new Brevet-ready wheelset.
>
> I know, for certain, I will be building it up with a Schmidt SON
> hub and a Phil rear hub [either with cassette or freewheel] but I'm
> not sure on rims or tires.
The Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25 is IMHO as good a tire as you are
going to find for this purpose. As for 26" rims, I have had good
results with the polished Sun CR-18.
Harry Spatz
The answer to this question depends upon your particular desires and requirements, and also your weight and riding style. If you are looking to set a record and don’t mind a DNF then you need a light very aerodynamic wheelset; one of those boutique wheelsets. I want to finish, want a soft ride, and want reliability. Those Deep V wheels such as Velocity makes ride very harsh and are difficult to insert a spoke nipple into should a spoke break and you need a fiber one. My recumbent came with Velocity Uriels in 571 size. I built 559 32-spoke SUN CR18 rims and get a MUCH smoother ride and less buffeting in cross winds than those Uriels with the “V” design. The CR18 is a flat cross section design and weighs less than the Uriel rim. No the CR18 will not build up a 16-spoke wheel like the deep designs will, but it makes a very good 32 spoke wheel and the rims are cheep. I use Schwalbe Stelvio 559/28 and those give better flat protection than 571 tires will. I have a SON up front and an Ultegra in the rear. I weigh 200 lb.
Remember, that even with good lights, you cannot see like daytime and will run over potholes and debris that are avoidable in the daytime, or when you are fresh. Also, you need to be able to go over dirt for certain portions. I wonder why you are considering a freewheel hub. You need a special tool to remove the freewheel and each requires its own tool, and also a wrench or pliers. I doubt that many shops have much, if any, selection if one is needed in an emergency. A cassette can be purchased anywhere and there are small and light emergency cassette removers that do not require a wrench or pliers. The only advantage I see to the freewheel is that if the pawls go, they are integrated into the freewheel and thus easier to replace.
Harry Spatz
-----Original
Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Scott
Cutshall
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008
12:17 AM
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
color=navy>
Steve Palincsar
>
> I wonder why you are considering a freewheel hub. You need a special
> tool to remove the freewheel and each requires its own tool, and also
> a wrench or pliers. I doubt that many shops have much, if any,
> selection if one is needed in an emergency. A cassette can be
> purchased anywhere and there are small and light emergency cassette
> removers that do not require a wrench or pliers. The only advantage I
> see to the freewheel is that if the pawls go, they are integrated into
> the freewheel and thus easier to replace.
>
>
cassette hub. I'll bet that's a factor.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com]*On
> Behalf Of *Scott Cutshall
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 04, 2008 12:17 AM
> *To:* ran...@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [Randon] Recommendations for 26 inch Rando-Wheelset:
>
>
>
> Could anyone share some thoughts/opinions on what would be a really
> good 26 inch wheelset for Brevets?
>
> I may be entering my first Brevet this May, and as such am looking
> into outfitting my custom with a new Brevet-ready wheelset.
>
> I know, for certain, I will be building it up with a Schmidt SON hub
> and a Phil rear hub [either with cassette or freewheel] but I'm not
> sure on rims or tires.
>
> Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated,
>
> Thanks-
>
> -Scott
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
> <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=51438/*http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs>
> color=navy>
>
>
> >
>
NickBull
fairly close in size and has many ardent proponents and may possibly
have some better choices in nice, randonneuring-suitable tires
available for it. Depending on your brake choice and clearances, 650B
might work for you.
When I searched for 26" slick tires for my winter commuter bike, the
only ones I found that seemed like they'd also be a good choice for
randonneuring were the Panaracer Pasela's (though I'll admit I can't
now remember quite why the Ritchey Tom's and the Michelin 26" slicks
seemed unappealing--maybe they looked like they were either overly
ruggedized or too narrow). I like the Pasela's and have used 700C
Pasela's for randonneuring. But the 650B Michelin Meganium's or Grand
Bois tires are supposedly very fast, based on tire test results
reported at www.vintagebicyclepress.com/tireoffer.html, and at the
same time very comfortable. I've ridden on my Grand Bois 700Cx30
tires since before PBP and they're the most comfortable tires I've
ever ridden. (Despite their lack of "flat guard" protection, I've
only gotten one flat--others have had less favorable experience,
apparently owing to goatshead thorns, whatever those are.)
Nick
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mike J
> Is the original poster fully committed to 26"?
committed" IMHO.
See: http://www.pbase.com/istanbultea/bob_brown&page=1
Mike Jenkins
Scott Cutshall
that said, I'm thinking about this for the wheelset:
CR-18's or AeroHeat AT's in a 36 hole drilling w/ Panaracer Pasela TG 1.25's or 1.5's [or possibly the Schwalbe Stelvio's]
Any thoughts?
Thanks-
-Scott
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Robert Magyar
Scott,
I believe the problem you had with the Mavic 519's, was with the tires that you paired them with.
Most of the Mavic 26" rims are designed for use with Tires 1.5 or larger, and at lower pressures. Running a 1.15 Gatorskin, at 100 PSI, is too hard of a tire for the rim, thus they started to fail over time at the highest stress point, the drive side spokes. Most people using a 26" rim are pairing them with 2.0 tires at 45 psi. The hugh volume of air in a 2.0 tire acts like a large shock absorber and protects the rim, thus it you use larger tires you can use lighter weight rims, and I would bet that Mavic designs most of there rims to be as light as they possibly can be.
This also means, if you want to use narrow high pressure tires, you will need a heaver rim.
While the Velocity Aeroheat (24mm) rim does well holding up to tandems and such at, and the Velocity Synergy O/C rim (23mm) reduces drive side spoke stress, both are too wide for running 1.15 Gatorskins or 1.10 Stelvios. But either would pair well with a Panaracer Pasela TG 1.5 or a Schwalbe Marathon Racer 1.5. (For dry conditions I would lean toward the Pasela TG's, but on a harsher day I would want the Marathon Racers.)
The Velocity Fusion (19mm) and would be a better rim for running narrow tires like the 1.15 Gatorskins or 1.10 Stelvios.
Bob
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2008 11:42:09 -0600
From: deanz...@shaw.ca
Subject: [Randon] Re: Recommendations for 26 inch Rando-Wheelset:
Keith Kohan
On the other hand HED seems to think the combination will work. They've just released the HED Ardennes wheel. Take a look at www.hedcycling.com/ardennes.php
They claim the combination works and in fact is an improvement in rolling resistance and makes the 23mm clincher feel like a tubular...
Robert Magyar <bob_m...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
Robert Magyar
The HED Ardennes is a specifically designed 700C wheel, with a rated max inflation of 130 PSI. It is probably a great 700C wheel.
But, the topic is 26 inch rando-wheels, this is a sneaky problem, as one can easily find numerous high end 26 inch rims, but unless you understand their designed purpose, one will end up with failing wheels like Dean and his friend.
If you go on the Mavic site, and look at the dimensions spec, you will see "Recommended tire widths: 1.50 to 2.30" for most of the 26" rims.
http://www.mavic.com/mtb/products/XM-517.323718.aspx
http://www.mavic.com/mtb/products/XM-719.323317.aspx
Given that Dean had multiple rims fail after a few thousand miles, it could be a reason for not recommending tires less than 1.50. If you also search back a few years in the archives, another person was having similar problems with the Sun rhino-lites, when using a narrow high pressure tire.
Also, if you were thinking of getting a set of those HED wheels, do check out the note from the link below:
"NOTE: Because we handbuild all our wheels, we can make most of our wheels in a stronger version for large riders. If you weigh over 190 lbs, we should talk about your intended use and riding style before you pull the trigger on a new set of wheels. We can probably make a wheel for you, but it may not be a stock version."
http://www.hedcycling.com/wheels/
Bob
Date: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 20:55:10 -0800
From: bike2wo...@yahoo.com
Subject: [Randon] Re: Recommendations for 26 inch Rando-Wheelset:
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.</a
WillemJ
Well, it also depends on the frame you are using. Are you using a
typical and quite flexible rando frame with quite narrow tubes,
relatively narrow clearances and only different from most rando frames
because of the size of the wheels, or are you using a far heavier and
stiffer frame typically used for loaded touring? If the former is the
case, by all means go for the narrower tyres, but if not, you should
seriously consider using wider (and still very fast) slicks. Tyres are
not only about road surface and purpose of the ride, but also about
fine tuning frame feel under varying loads.
My own recreational riding is primarily loaded touring. So my best
bike is a steel 26 inch wheel tourer with a custom frame, drop bar,
Magura HS 66 brakes, Rohloff and Son hubs. Rims are heavy duty Exal
SP19, and given the hubs I can obvioulsy only use one wheelset (tyres
are all I can change). The bikes is designed to use 50mm tyres
ranging from the fast and comfy Big Apples to heavy duty Marathon
XR's, and much in between. When we go touring (and camping) with the
family, I am the family mule, with up to 35 kg of luggage. I then use
a lowrider, and the rigid Tubus Duo stiffens the front fork (Reynolds
531 ST with Long Shin cast crown) just that necessary bit extra. When
I make a trip without the family (or only with my wife), I don't need
the lowriders, so I remove the Tubus Duo rack. That allows the fork
blades just the extra room to work their traditional magic (the
difference is very real). It is then that the bike really sings. When
I make a long ride without much luggage but with heavy touring tyres,
however, I find the frame just a bit too harsh, and the heavy tyres
unnecessarily slow, of course. I have an old brevet bike, and I love
it, but one bike less in the shed is also worth something, so I am now
investigating how I can make the bike not only faster, but also
sweeter without luggage. I have ordered a set of 1.75 inch Pasela's,
and will let you know how I like them on this bike.
In the past I have also used 1.5 inch Panaracer Highroads. These were
really fast, and also comfortable. I guess in 26 inch tyres they are
the nearest thing to GrandBois tyres, with their smooth surface, light
weight, Panaracer heritage, - and lack of puncture protection.
Punctures was what turned me off on these, but to ride they were
magic.
Narrow is not necessarily faster, but it may well be very
uncomfortable if your frame is on the stiff side.
enjoy the ride.
Willem
Harry Spatz
How do you know that the problem wasn’t the builder? If the spokes were over tightened, you will get this failure. I would want to hear from the builder how he chose the proper spokes and how he judged proper tension. Some builders think that if they tighten the spokes until the nipples are ready to round, that that is the best tension, but they are wrong. Getting a wheel round and true is not all there is to building a wheel.
Harry Spatz
-----Original
Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of Robert
Magyar
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008
10:50 PM
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Randon] Re:
Recommendations for 26 inch Rando-Wheelset:
Scott,
I believe the problem you had with the Mavic 519's, was with the tires that you
paired them with.
Bob
Dean Zimmer
Hi Harry, Robert
Interesting idea that smaller tires inflated to high pressure could cause the problem. Not something I had considered.
In my case the builder is a very well known for building quality wheels. I would doubt that spoke tensioning would be the cause. When I questioned him about the failures he had told me that he had noticed a decrease in quality/ increase in failures (can not remember exactly how he worded it) with Mavic rims. After the first failure I sent in the wheel which he re-built with a velocity rim. I had the 2nd one rebuilt locally as I needed it quickly and couldn’t wait for shipping etc.
Dean
WillemJ
They had a real quality problem, which I understand they have now
solved.
Willem
Mike Biswell
>There are countless stories of cracking Mavic rims of a few years ago.
>They had a real quality problem, which I understand they have now
>solved.
>Willem
By electing Sarkozy.
Regards!
Mike
Robert Magyar
Good point, but to claim that the spokes are being over tightened, Mavic would need to publish spec's, on what the maxim design load is for their rims.
But for some reason, they don't, and the question is then is why?
It is either that there is no load limit (which many people seem to assume), or Mavic doesn't want to state what the design load limit is.
Bob
From: hsp...@baystatescale.com
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Randon] Re: Recommendations for 26 inch Rando-Wheelset:
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 10:24:51 -0500
Tim McNamara
rest of the stuff is just Mavic's excuses for a bad product. Mavic
(and unfortunately many other rim makers following the market
leader's suit) use suboptimal designs and suboptimal practices in
making rims. Mavic rims in particular are renowned for breaking
around the spoke holes due to a perfect storm of bad stuff:
anodizing, choice of alloy, eliminating spoke nipple sockets, etc.
If they spent as much time on making quality rims as they do on
cosmetics and acronyms, they'd still make good rims. As it is, they
discontinued their last good rim a decade ago. Mavic likes to blame
the rider to get out of warranty replacements. It doesn't matter how
the wheel is built or used, Mavic will find some way to blame you.
The tire was too big/too small/overinflated/underinflated, the spokes
were too tight/too slack/tied and soldered/not tied and soldered/
radially spoked/not radially spoked, the wheel was built on a
Tuesday, you didn't sacrifice a goat when building the wheel, the
rider was too heavy, etc.
There are better products on the market and companies that treat
their customers with respect. That is where our money should go, IMHO.
I use 26" wheels on my rando bike. I'm 6'4" and weigh 210 lbs. I
got 10 years out of a pair of Sun CR-16a rims until the rear finally
cracked around three spoke holes and I replaced it with a CR-18.
30,000+ miles, I can't really complain. Still have the CR-16a on the
front. I've never had a problem on a ride with these products in
tens of thousands of miles (unlike an old Sun Mistral). The hubs are
Phils, the rear is a 7 sp x 135 mm so the wheel has almost no dish
(the downside is that I haven't been able to get the Sachs freewheel
off in about 8 years and I am almost out of spare cogs. This is one
reason to go with cassette hubs).
I rode Ritchey Tom Slick 26 x 1.0 tires for years until their quality
control went south. Then I switched to Primo Racer 26 x 1.25s which
were nice and fast but too fragile. Some people report poor wet
traction with those tires but I never experienced that. The
complainers were in Seattle so I bow to their observations, given how
much more opportunity they have to ride in the rain. Currently I am
using Panaracer Pasela 26 x 1.25s with good results. They roll well,
they ride well, they don't puncture very often, they last about 2000
miles on the rear (a bit short, IMHO, but whaddya gonna do?). And
they're priced right. I use the 700 x 25 Paselas on my big wheel
bikes, too.
I bought the rims and tires at Hiawatha Cyclery, which I think is
also the OP's LBS.
Harry Spatz
Park does have some recommendations with their tensiometer. Here is an example: http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=tm_1
Believe me when I say there “IS” a tension limit whether published or not. Why rim manufacturers don’t want to publish them is something they should answer. A cynic would say so that they can blame the builder when they fail. Perhaps the manufacturers don’t test their rims sufficiently to have a precise answer. Another possibility might be that different builds such as 3 cross versus radial, or different spoke diameters, or different types such as bladed versus round, or butted versus non butted, might have different allowable tensions. Still the answers are far from obvious. To complicate matters more, hubs also have maximums. Some will not allow radial spoking. I had a 1994 Santana tandem in which both hubs broke at their flanges at different times, in each case causing 2 spokes to lose tension. I believe I was told that these hubs had not been heat treated properly and were too brittle.
If I had to guess from what I have read, it is reasonably safe to use 120 kgf. I have used that with my SUN CR18 rims with good results. One set of wheels has around 7000 miles on it and I weigh around 200 lb.
</html
size=2 color=black face=Tahoma>
Robert Magyar
A classic bad combination would be a Mavic Open Pro Rim, and Campy Rear Hub and a 200 lb rider,
the builder can either over tension it, and have the spokes pull through the rim,
or they can under tension it, and rider will have a wheel that makes funny noises as it starts falling apart.
The Mavic MA2 of days past, was likely designed for a 250 lb load,
but one might think that an Open Pro is only designed for a 130 lb load.
From: hsp...@baystatescale.com
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Randon] Re: Recommendations for 26 inch Rando-Wheelset:
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 23:14:24 -0500
NickBull
randonneuring application. I've ridden nearly 30000 miles over the
last 4 years, virtually all of it on Mavic Open Pro rims built on
Shimano Ultegra hubs (or Schmidt) using double-butted spokes. I do
have a couple of wheelsets, mostly so that I can spare the Schmidt hub
if I won't be riding at night. With a "standard" long-brevet load, me
+bike+junk weighs in the region of 240. Except for the Schmidt-based
wheel (a Peter White special) I built all these wheels myself. No
problems with any of these wheels despite some very hard riding and
several pothole hits that left me pretty shaken.
The only rim failures I've ever had in my life were with a Mavic MA-2,
which I probably overtensioned and split the rim at the spoke hole,
back in about 1999, and a Mavic MA that came on a 20-year-old Trek
that a friend gave me, which also split at the spoke hole and was
definitely not overtensioned. So the magic of the supposedly-wondrous
MA rims doesn't work for me :-)
On Mar 6, 11:54 pm, Robert Magyar <bob_mag...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I agree that there IS a tension limit, and that it would correlate to a maximum rider weight.
>
> A classic bad combination would be a Mavic Open Pro Rim, and Campy Rear Hub and a 200 lb rider,
> the builder can either over tension it, and have the spokes pull through the rim,
> or they can under tension it, and rider will have a wheel that makes funny noises as it starts falling apart.
>
> The Mavic MA2 of days past, was likely designed for a 250 lb load,
> but one might think that an Open Pro is only designed for a 130 lb load.
>
>
> Park does have some recommendations with their tensiometer. Here is an example:http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech/fix/?id=tm_1
> Believe me when I say there "IS" a tension limit whether published or not. Why rim manufacturers don't want to publish them is something they should answer. A cynic would say so that they can blame the builder when they fail. Perhaps the manufacturers don't test their rims sufficiently to have a precise answer. Another possibility might be that different builds such as 3 cross versus radial, or different spoke diameters, or different types such as bladed versus round, or butted versus non butted, might have different allowable tensions. Still the answers are far from obvious. To complicate matters more, hubs also have maximums. Some will not allow radial spoking. I had a 1994 Santana tandem in which both hubs broke at their flanges at different times, in each case causing 2 spokes to lose tension. I believe I was told that these hubs had not been heat treated properly and were too brittle.
>
> If I had to guess from what I have read, it is reasonably safe to use 120 kgf. I have used that with my SUN CR18 rims with good results. One set of wheels has around 7000 miles on it and I weigh around 200 lb.
>
> Harry Spatz
>
>
>
> Good point, but to claim that the spokes are being over tightened, Mavic would need to publish spec's, on what the maxim design load is for their rims. But for some reason, they don't, and the question is then is why? It is either that there is no load limit (which many people seem to assume), or Mavic doesn't want to state what the design load limit is. Bob
>
> How do you know that the problem wasn't the builder? If the spokes were over tightened, you will get this failure. I would want to hear from the builder how he chose the proper spokes and how he judged proper tension. Some builders think that if they tighten the spokes until the nipples are ready to round, that that is the best tension, but they are wrong. Getting a wheel round and true is not all there is to building a wheel.
>
> Harry Spatz
>
> Scott, I believe the problem you had with the Mavic 519's, was with the tires that you paired them with. Bob
>