Recumbents for Brevets?
Joel
long distance cycling -- ie brevets, PBP, etc - due to an unusual
condition in a neck muscle that creates nerve damage in my arm after
extended periods in a normal cycling position. This happened twice
this past year, once after teh Davis 600K and then after PBP. It's now
4 months + since PBP and I still have less than 50% of norma strength
of most of the muscles in my left arm. it may take another 6 months
for the affected nerve(s) to completely heal. I may have neuro surgery
to relieve the pressure (caused by a narrowing of the opening that the
#5 nerve passes thorough on entering the left arm) but even if I do I
am starting to look at a recumbent as an alternative since its riding
position wold allow a more neutral neck position and thus reduce
chances of putting pressure on teh nerve, with or without the surgery.
I have no idea what recumbents are best suited for our brand of
cycling with brevets, PBP, etc other than what I've seen others ride
on some brevets (like Zach) or the variety one sees at PBP, etc. I
need all the usual things a "middle-of-the-pack" rider needs -
comfort, light weight, dependability, ablility to carry sugnificant
supplies (since us average riders are on the road longer than the fast
guys), ability to easily transport the bike both to brevets and to
events like PBP, etc, etc.
Any advice, stories, pointers, etc would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Joel
Peter Leiss
You may want to consider raising your bars to relive the nerve
impingement. I had similar issues with my right arm. Raising the bars
brought considerable relief. However you will get many replies to
bents on brevets. Good luck
Peter
Greg
was because of my neck or because of direct pressure on my wrist. In
any case, I switched to areo bars (http://www.profile-design.com/
products/aerobars/aerolite/) which allow for some adjustment in fit,
on top of a stoker bar (http://www.profile-design.com/products/base-
bars/stoker-26/). I had to switch from a Campagnolo STI shifter to
brakes (http://www.canecreek.com/200tt-brake-levers.html) on the
stoker bar and shifters on the end of my aero bar.
The intent was to relieve pressure on my wrists, which I've done. I've
recovered a lot of the strength, dexterity, and sensation in my hands
since switching over to the aero bars.
I guess my point is to see if this switch might be useful to you, as
it's a lot less expensive to switch out the handlebars than to switch
out the bike.
Greg
Peter Noris
I've been riding 'bents on brevets since 2001. Where all diamond frame (DF) bikes are fairly similar, there are much larger differences in 'bents.
A long wheel base bike (like an Easy Racer easyracer.com) can relieve the problem you have. Any recumbent will. Without any aerodynamic aids, it a little more aero than a rider in a DF in a tuck. If you don't mind being the object of attention, adding a full body kit (plastic front fairing and lycra sock) it is quite a bit faster than a DF. Most recumbents, unless you spend big bucks, are going to weigh around 24 pounds - the aero package adds about 5. If there is a lot of climbing on a route, it will be tougher going up - even when you learn how to use the bike, climbing is not it's strong point - but on the flat or going downhill, there is a noticeable increase in speed or decrease in effort - take your pick.
High racers, like RANS or Bachetta, look much more like a standard bike. There is a steeper learning curve, but once you get the hang of it, no problem. From my experience, it's a little more aero than a stock LWB, not quite as aero than a LWB with a fairing. In my opinion, it is much easier due to the seating position to sprint or climb than a LWB. These bikes also seem much more acceptable in a pack than LWB, although I've never figured out why. They will range from 20 pounds up to about 26 or 28 ponds - a lot depending upon what you weigh and what load the bike is rated to carry and the limit on your credit card. 'Bent manufacturers seem much more willing to supply this info (if you read the thread about the CAAD 4 with a 15 pound baggage limit, you'll see what I mean).
Low racers are the fastest unfaired bike - for many people they are too spooky to ride in traffic. The rule of thumb is if you can stop at a light, not unclip, and hold yourself up with one hand, you're on a lowracer. For example, the lowracer record for the hour is held by an amateur at about the UCI DF hour record. Granted, the low racer guy is a highly skilled athlete - but he's not Eddy Mercyx (of course, who ever was, besides Eddy?) or any other pro who has held the "official" hour record.
Travelling with any bent is a nuisance. If it's a diamond shape frame like the older RANS Force 5, or an EasyRacer, you can have S&S couplers put on. Monotube high racers, not so. OTOH, I've flown with both types, and it's aggravating, but not the end of the world.
You can easily fit a 'bent with more than enough to ride a completely unsupported 1200 - it just depends on how much weight you're willing to carry.
Good luck - if you have more questions, I'll be glad to help.
Peter
TEAM RANS - RAAM 2008
"Seeing the U.S.A. one brevet at a time"
13 regions and Canada - more to come!
321-794-0500 cell - 352-275-5888 home - Skype me at Peter.F.Noris
Lisa Susan McPhate
You may want to check out
http://longdistancebents.blogspot.com/
This past summer I bought and then rode a recumbent for about 3
months due to injury. I was really happy to be able to continue
riding, but I am also happy to be back riding an upright again. The
longest ride I did on the recumbent was only about 80 miles. I would
recommend starting with a bike you feel comfortable and safe on at
first. The bike I chose, (an used rotator tiger with same size back
and front wheels) had quite a high bottom bracket. The higher bottom
bracket made starting and stopping feel less safe and I tended to get
quite stressed out about the possibility of falling, especially when
tired. You may want to consider getting a bike you feel stable and
safe on for the first few months rather than getting the perfect
randonneuring bike. It can take quite a while to get your recumbent
legs.
Due to its short wheelbase, the tiger can easily be transported in
the back seat of a sedan. Bags, fenders and all sorts of stuff can
also the added.
Lisa-Susan McPhate
Oakland, Ca
On Jan 6, 2008, at 1:55 PM, Joel wrote:
>
> I may need to switch over to a recumbent if I want to continue doing
> long distance cycling -- ie brevets, PBP, etc - due to an unusual
snip
Vik
Peter Noris
Surgery is way more expensive (and emotionally traumatic) than the most expensive 'bent in the world.
Vik
Any advice, stories, pointers, etc would be appreciated.Thanks,Joel
David Cambon
http://longdistancebents.blogspot.com too.
Weight is fairly critical on rando 'bents. The light ones are more
expensive. The most common unfaired rando-bent is a midracer like Vik's.
For a nearly bolt-upright 'bent position I would recommend an Easy Racer
TiRush, with a carbon fork, carbon hardshell seat and carbon fairing. To
make that type of bike fast you have to use a fairing. The fairing, however,
protects you from weather and makes it unnecessary to draft. Drafting normal
bikes is out of the question with most recumbents anyway (but you avoid all
paceline pile-ups of normal cyclists).
The TiRush can cause recumbent butt (because of the upright seat) during the
acclimation period (about a year). All recumbents require an acclimation
period because you use different muscles than a normal bike. I get the best
climbing results from TiRush-type bikes, because of the direct drive-side
chainline, low bottom-bracket, hardshell seat, laterally and vertically
stiff frame and reasonably light weight. Most 'bents are bad climbers so you
have to be careful when choosing.
Some 'bents (especially the faster highracers) are not designed to take
rando accessories like mudgaurds. Highracers also use 650 tires, so tire
choices are limited. One of the fastest highracers (Bacchetta CarbonAero)
just went out of production because of a shortage of the type of titanium
tubing it uses. I'm not crazy about highracers for randonneuring anyway. I
wish Bacchetta would make a CarbonAero with a 700c rear and 20" front wheel
(to bring the bottom-bracket down to a reasonable level).
Peter Noris
OTOH, once I learned the hard way about starting a high bottom bracket bike going up hill (be in a low gear, don't worry about clipping the other pedal until you're going and stable) no more problems - and the more prone seating doesn't send bumps straight up your back, like a LWB.
Every bike has trade-offs. It's just that with DFs they are so well known, no one thinks much about it - - "it's just how bikes are".
David Cambon
Definetly. I like long-wheelbase bikes, perhaps for their high-speed
stability and traffic-friendly low bottom-bracket even though that type of
bike would not be most people's first choice for randonneuring.
I predict that the most-common 'bent of the future will be a 700 x 20
midracer with a fairly upright seat.
Greg
injuries or works with a local cycling team? I was very fortunate to
locate one in San Diego after PBP. It's possible to run electrical
stimulus tests to measure how well certain nerves are working. You
mention that you know that you have an unusual condition. Perhaps a
specialist can tell you the degree to which your position must change
to alleviate that problem.
In addition to recumbents, look at a type of bike called Crank
Forward. It's halfway between a double diamond and a recumbent.
www.crankforward.com.
I saw a guy riding one on a century ride and he was very pleased with
it. The rider's torso is more upright than a double diamond, but it is
still more reminiscent of a double diamond than a recumbent. Also, the
pressure on the hands looks to me to be dramatically reduced.
Good luck.
Greg
Peter Noris
FlyingLaZBoy
Do you perceive any significant advantage of a LWB over a SWB
regarding shock absorption, especially for longer brevets? Granted, I
ride a Stratus XP, but I know I don't feel the effects of the Texas
chip seal anywhere near what my DF pals do... Or is that more a
matter of tires and inflation pressures?
Joel, you're on the right track, here -- whatever keeps you riding
is good, 'bent or not...
Paul
Peter Noris
Shock absorption for me is better on a SWB since the force is distributed over the entire back, instead of traveling straight up the spine - although, I have had back problems unrelated to cycling.
I can't speak for all 'bents, since mine have all had speed as their justification, but the worst bent I've ever ridden was better than the best DF in terms of comfort - and yes, I have done several SR series and 1000Ks on a DF and didn't have any extraordinary problems.
Well, I need to take part of that back - I have a RANS Screamer tandem, and with the seat reclined and their traditional seat - probably more like your Stratus unless you have a Zephyr seat - it is like a lounge chair compared to my F5. When I rode a DF on rough surfaces - in and out of Everglades National Park - I would lower the tire pressures and it helped - but my bent at the regular tire pressure was still more comfortable.
Amen - after I was in an accident I was of the bike for almost nine years - I still can't ride a DF, so you're right - whatever it takes to keep riding.
Peter
TEAM RANS - RAAM 2008
"Seeing the U.S.A. one brevet at a time"
13 regions and Canada - more to come!
Vik
Definitely there are differences between LWB and SWB bikes, but I don't
think there is an easy way to answer your question. How a recumbent rider
experiences chipseal will depend on quite a few factors:
- tires & pressure
- recumbent frame design
- seat cushion
- seat angle
My recumbent is essentially a long monotube with wheels at both ends. I
find it acts like a spring and the seat cushion also absorbs a lot of
vibration. I think a LWB recumbent would act in a similar way, but I don't
have any empirical data to compare how a specific LWB and SWB might be
different.
In comparison riding my upright road bike I can unweight my saddle and stand
up, even bunny hop over things, so that is an advantage if I encounter a
short section of bad road. On my recumbent I can't really unweight the
saddle, but the impact is dampened and spread out over a bigger surface area
which is an advantage for long stretches of bad road where I couldn't stay
off my saddle on my road bike.
I have friends who bought and then sold a SWB recumbent because that
specific design transmitted the vibration from chipseal to him in a way he
couldn't stand. He now rides a SWB similar to the Fujin, but from another
manufacturer on the same roads and is quite happy.
Since I ride both recumbents and upright bikes I see occasions on every ride
where I would definitely prefer one over the other. Having had an
opportunity to ride all sorts of bikes I know what works best for me on
different rides.
I'm glad you are enjoying your Stratus. I've never had the opportunity to
really get in a proper ride on one. They look very comfortable and sort of
remind me of a chopper motorcycle...=-)
Safe riding,
Vik
thre...@gmail.com
www.vikram-banerjee.com
www.thelazyrando.com
Keith Kohan
FlyingLaZBoy <PBAco...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Adrian Hands, Raleigh NC USA
Hows your left arm? I think you lost use of it after PBP. My left
arm, beginning with the "thenar" muscle (thumb) wasted away in 2005.
I've seen five neurologists so far, had two MRIs, three EMG/NCSs,a CaT
scan, etc., and they still aren't sure, but think it might be Lou
Gehrigs disease.
I picked up a used Rans V-Rex and have been very happy with it. Took
it on PBP '07, but DNFed at Tinteniac on the return.
For a long time it was mostly my left arm, but now my right hand is
noticeably atrophied and my neck is weak. I had been alternating
between the 'bent and a fixed gear, but since losing neck muscles I'm
pretty much on the 'bent exclusively.
Tim McNamara
On Jan 7, 2008, at 9:59 AM, FlyingLaZBoy wrote:
> Peter / Vik --
> Do you perceive any significant advantage of a LWB over a SWB
> regarding shock absorption, especially for longer brevets? Granted, I
> ride a Stratus XP, but I know I don't feel the effects of the Texas
> chip seal anywhere near what my DF pals do... Or is that more a
> matter of tires and inflation pressures?
As a non-recumbentist, my guess is that the vibrations from the ship
seal are just spread out over a much larger contact area. I'm just
comparing the surface area of a recumbent seat with that of a regular
saddle and bars. Also, recumbent riders are It seems like almost all
recumbents I see have much skinnier and higher pressure tires than I
use on my upright, so I doubt that's it.
Peter Mathews
Respectfully I am not sure that you are quite correct about tyre profile and pressure Tim. Although for maximum performance many recumbenteers ride relative high pressure tyres like Schwalbe's Stelvios, there is quite a range of tyres and running pressures around. In fact if I were to go our on a limb I would say I have a wider range of choices for my 20" recumbent than my 700c road bike. With a more even front/ rear weight distribution on a recumbent I have found significant benefits by not over inflating tyres (even Stelvios which run beautifully between 90 & 100 psi). Spray and chip seals using coarse chips are very common in Australia and I must say that I don't notice them as much as pitted and uneven surfaces, but must admit than getting onto a nice smooth asphalitic surface is, well, really nice, quiet and comfortable.
I think seat configuration (material, angle, width) and wheel size (seems to play an important part and I think may also affect speed a larger than 20" rear wheel is something I am interested in testing) are really important. Different people have different views on suspension and as I have none can't really comment. Ergonomics of the whole machine obviously plays a major role and I suspect there is much more variability in recumbent design as we are less restricted by a long design history and the trickle down effect of design rules from bodies like UCI.
Not withstanding any of the above my recumbent, on any of the tyres I have used and with several versions of seat mesh and attachment, is much more comfortable on coarse surfaces than my road bike.
Cheers, Peter -- Peter Mathews Library Planning Executive Office of the University Librarian Monash University Library MONASH UNIVERSITY VIC 3800 Ph : (03) 9905 2192 Bike : 043 999 2130 Fax : (03) 9905 2610 email : peter....@lib.monash.edu.au
Vik
David Cambon
Other than the type of tires & their pressure the main thing that affects
comfort on chipseal or any surface is simply the wheelbase of the bike. The
further away the rear axle (from the rider) the smoother the ride. That's
why long chainstays on an upright touring bike give a smoother ride and
that's why the driver on a tandem gets such a smooth ride.
The back axles on long wheelbase recumbents (like the Stiletto and the
TiRush) and midracers (like Vik's Challenge Fujin) are pretty far away from
the riders centre of mass, hence the smooth ride on those types of bikes.
Hiracers with the back axle nearly underneath the seat give a
correspondingly rougher ride (on rough surfaces).
Some frames give a smooth ride because they are as bendy as a Slinky but you
don't want that kind of smoothness because the bendiness robs power. The
kind of smoothness you do want comes from a laterally and vertically stiff
titanium frame (and steel to a more limited extent). Titanium has unique
harmonic properties that dampen high-frequency vibration, giving a
noticeably better ride over chipseal. Carbon fiber can also deaden some
high frequency vibration.
Seat foam can also absorb vibration.
Harry Spatz
availability and/or pricing. The "CarbonAero" is made of carbon, not
titanium, and thus would not be affected by titanium prices or availability.
However, you will not find the "CarbonAero" among the Bacchetta models for
2008 on their website. Bacchetta's John Schlitter says that the CarbonAero
has a long backlog and he only wants to promote bikes that Bacchetta can
deliver, therefore it is not on their website. About 1/3 of the way down on
this page, it is discussed: http://www.bentrideronline.com/
For those wishing to consider a 'bent for randonneuring, you might look at
the following as well:
http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageboard/forumdisplay.php?f=48
This is bentridersonline's message board for ultra cycling.
http://www.fastbacksystem.com/
This company specializes in hydration and other packs for recumbents. You
will have to rethink the way you carry water and other essentials. Even
lighting or carrying a cue sheet presents very different conundrums on a
recumbent than a diamond frame.
John Schlitter of Bacchetta is planning to ride RAAM solo in 2008. He
discusses his training for this in the blog on Bacchetta's site. Also, I
believe that I read that Randy Schlitter, John's brother, of RANS, is
putting together a team to ride RAAM in 2008. The point is that recumbents
are successfully used in ultra endurance events. John Schlitter's team did
very well in RAAM last year, especially when you consider what a small
population of athletes there are with recumbent experience and training
available to ride these events.
I like my twin 26" (559) Bacchetta Corsa highracer better for randonneuring
than my 20" (406) and 26" (559) Barcroft Dakota. The twin 559 climbs better
and does better through potholes and rough roads than the 406/559. Also, I
need spares for only one size wheel. The higher position on the Corsa, I
believe, lets me see better at night also. That is not to say that David's
thoughts below about a 20" front wheel are wrong. Each style of recumbent
has its own personality and peculiarities. Even different seats make a big
difference in the personality of the same recumbent. These personalities
are so individual that they need to be experienced to know which one is best
for a particular person for a particular kind of riding.
Harry Spatz
-----Original Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of
David Cambon
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 7:25 PM
To: randon
Subject: [Randon] Re: Recumbents for Brevets?
David Cambon
> availability and/or pricing. The "CarbonAero" is made of carbon, not
> titanium, and thus would not be affected by titanium prices or
> availability.
Vyatek (the manufacturer of the CarbonAero) was apparently using the same
tubing as the TiAero for the Ti lattice in the CarbonAero.
> I like my twin 26" (559) Bacchetta Corsa highracer better for
> randonneuring
> than my 20" (406) and 26" (559) Barcroft Dakota. The twin 559 climbs
> better
> and does better through potholes and rough roads than the 406/559. Also,
> I
> need spares for only one size wheel. The higher position on the Corsa, I
> believe, lets me see better at night also. That is not to say that
> David's
> thoughts below about a 20" front wheel are wrong. Each style of recumbent
> has its own personality and peculiarities. Even different seats make a
> big
> difference in the personality of the same recumbent. These personalities
> are so individual that they need to be experienced to know which one is
> best
> for a particular person for a particular kind of riding.
Absolutely. The smaller front wheel compromises top speed and so does the
less laid-back postion of a lower bottom bracket. There is an argument to
be made that the CarbonAero hiracer is the fastest non-lowracer (eg
VeloKraft NoCom) rando bike. I'm not interested in being the fastest
randonneur on earth so I prefer to make compromises to suit my tastes. I
feel more confident (at high speeds) on long-wheelbase 'bents and I like
long-wheelbase midracers with a small front wheel. I also use full
mudgaurds so that rules out a lot of no-compromise recumbents (like the
NoCom, ha, ha - note to non-'benters: that's an inside 'bent joke - "NoCom"
is the real name of the bike and it means "No Compromises").
I also like a fairly upright seat for good visibility at night.
Tim McNamara
On Jan 7, 2008, at 5:46 PM, Vik wrote:
> The comparison you suggest also depends on the upright randonneurs
> in your area. Prior to riding my first brevet I had done my
> research online via this list and various blogs/websites. If you
> had asked me then what most people would be riding I'd have said an
> old school steel framed French inspired randonneur bike shod with
> wide comfortable rubber with a British saddle bag and a handlebar
> bar bag - running a SON hub and E6 lights - not to forget to
> mention full fenders.
That pretty well describes my bikes for a long time now, even before
I started riding brevets four years ago. Less of the French in those
days, and I'll admit I still incline to the British because I find
all that wacky stuff to be much fun.
> Imagine my surprise when I didn't see one bike like that. Everyone
> has modern racing bikes, with narrow high pressure rubber, battery
> lights and a variety of tail trunks, bar bags and camelbacks - no
> or minimal clip on fenders. Naturally they did fine and had fun on
> their bikes. These folks would all be running 23-700c high
> pressure tires
Lots of those bike choices here, too. Hey, whatever works for that
rider is whatever works!
FlyingLaZBoy
going up hill (be in a low gear, don't worry about clipping the other
pedal
until you're going and stable) no more problems ->>
don't have quite the wobble issue on my LWB as I would on a
highracer... I've passed it on the to RANS discussion list.
Paul