Why to consider following the rules on your bike.
JEV
a cyclist and its only a civil penalty??!! ...and its up to a MAXIMUM
of $1000!!! WTF!!!! Whats the freaking minimum that one of our lives
is worth??" In the movies it costs a whole lot more to have some one
knocked off! ;-)
On the other hand, if you have followed similar cases over the years,
and like I, have lost multiple teammates and friends to this kind of
thing, you might remember that most of the drivers get off without
even a civil charge. Yes, that's is the norm: no charges.
Personally, this is extremely frustrating. So much so that it
motivated me to talk to DAs and friends in the legal arena. Turns out
that as a group, cyclists have an poor reputation for conduct on the
roads. As a group, motorists are far more well behaved. So, the
assumption is that if there is a collision, the cyclist must have been
at fault. No DA will bring a case like this to trial as the general
consensus of the population is: cyclists do not follow the rules.
So, as a cyclist, you might get pulled over by a police officer for
running stop lights or stop signs, but it won't happen much. Sure its
against the law, and makes all of us look like scoff-laws, but in most
jurisdictions, it will never wind up on your record, or cost you much.
They will rarely even cite you, as they know it won't have much
impact.
So, how do we pay for some cyclists aberrant behavior on the road, if
not in fines and increased insurance premiums, like motorists? When
your friends get killed, many times due to no fault of their own,
there will be no justice. It fells like a real heavy fine when this
happens to me. So, we do pay dearly for the poor conduct some of us
exhibit on the road.
In my mind, if you want to be part of the solution to this problem,
its very simple: you follow the rules. This applies to ALL the time
you spend on the public roads on your bike.
As randonneurs in particular, the RUSA rules even state:
"Article 5: During the event, each rider is considered to be on a
personal ride. The rider must ride in accordance with all applicable
traffic codes, obey all traffic signals...."
"Article 15: Any fraud, cheating, or deliberate violation of these
rules will result in the exclusion of the rider from all RUSA-, RM-,
and ACP-sponsored events."
If you ride in a kit that has sponsor logos on it, consider how your
conduct on the road may impact those sponsors. Do you want to continue
to receive their support?
When you ride an organized event, and the event organizers plead with
you to please follow the rules so that they can get permission to hold
the event next year, think about how you want to ride the event. Even
if you are not coming back next year, trust me, many of the rest of us
will want to. If its your conduct that gets an event canceled, how
will you feel about your role in the cycling community? The word is
destructive.
Do I have to mention the friends you have buried again?
So, if your conduct on the road is why we have such a poor reputation,
forget AZ or CA. I don't think YOU have it quite right.
So, if you happen to encounter me on a brevet, keep 2 things in mind:
1. If you are part of the problem, and not part of the solution, you
might be a really great individual otherwise, but I will not what to
ride with or even be seen with you on a bike. Its too embarrassing. I
find your conduct absolutely disgraceful.
2. I have a at least one video camera on my bike most of the time.
http://vimeo.com/14022010
My hope in writing this is that its read by some of the more
experienced cyclists, the ones who should be setting an example to the
newer riders. I think anyone who rides brevets falls into this
category.
Constructively,
Jim Verheul
On Aug 31, 7:28 am, Mike Sturgill <mikesturg...@cox.net> wrote:
> I don't think AZ has it quite right! Note subsection C. If a bike lane exists, then the law does not apply. How stupid is that? This law is nearly unenforceable. How is the 3' measured? Your word against theirs, etc.http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00735.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS
>
> 28-735.Overtaking bicycles; civil penalties
>
> A. When overtaking and passing a bicycle proceeding in the same direction, a person driving a motor vehicle shall exercise due care by leaving a safe distance between the motor vehicle and the bicycle of not less than three feet until the motor vehicle is safely past the overtaken bicycle.
>
> B. If a person violates this section and the violation results in a collision causing:
>
> 1. Serious physical injury as defined in section 13-105 to another person, the violator is subject to a civil penalty of up to five hundred dollars.
>
> 2. Death to another person, the violator is subject to a civil penalty of up to one thousand dollars.
>
> C. Subsection B of this section does not apply to a bicyclist who is injured in a vehicular traffic lane when a designated bicycle lane or path is present and passable.
John Elmblad
I agree! It is crazy enough on the roads here in Colorado. We, randos, need to set an example. Is it really that hard to follow the rules?
Another rule follower and
John
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Veronica Tunucci
Oh please, this is the same argument the ignoramuses use to perpetuate racism. Because a small group of the population behave in a particular manner, the whole race is therefore inferior.
I had an exchange with a local bike advocacy employee about what I thought was an irresponsible article he wrote and here is a clip of his response on stop signs:
Quoted from a Marin County Bicycle Coalition Employee:
”As an everyday cyclist, I fully understand that it is unpractical to unclip at every stop sign. And as an everyday cyclist, I understand that it is a waste of energy for me to stop at a stop sign - especially if there are no cars at any of the other stop signs. I roll stop signs all of the time. I REALLY encourage you to read an article that I wrote about some possible changes in the law. Personally, I'm in favor of what I describe in this article:
http://www.urbanvelo.org/issue17/p42-43.html”
The local bike advocacy employee rolls stop signs all of the time, so what’s the big deal? An example of do as I say do, not as I do. How many times do we have to hear the Evangelists preach, only later to find their sins the same as ours or abhorrently worse. Is this really such bad behavior to run a stop sign when there’s no one around? Of course not, the bicycle community makes issues out of non-issues, and then the non-issues become “big” issues. There are much bigger issues out there.
The biggest issue motorists have with cyclists is the inconvenience factor. We slow down their drive. They may have to wait a few extra seconds for us to navigate through some intersection or to safely pass on the road. The other is safety. It’s downright dangerous for both motorists and cyclists on some of our travels. I have witnessed too many close calls when a motorist passes a cyclist on a sub-standard road and there’s oncoming traffic. The fear of those encounters translate to anger and hatred.
Veronica Tunucci
Kevin Foust
Could we now move on to a rousing crank length debate, or perhaps a dynamo versus battery discussion?
Regards,
Kevin
Old5ten
As a group, motorists are far more well behaved.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement, it is one big fallacy. Motorists consistently break the law! 5-10 mph over the speed limit, no problem. Running yellow and red lights, I see that every day. U-Turn and No Left Turn violations, all the time. Rolling 'California' stops, it's the norm, not the exception. Sudden lane change or turn without a signal, happens all the time. Most police are not inclined to enforce these violations on a regular basis, yielding a sense to many drivers that it's okay.
Motorists are no different than cyclists in terms of violations, BUT there are some important distinctions to be made: there are significantly more cars on the road and they are faster/heavier. In California, pedestrians are treated like the holy cow (and I have no problem with that), cyclists should be treated the same way!
Elmar
joshua
here are my current thoughts on the matter. But first, a very brief
background. When I was in my young 20's and a bike messenger, I would
blow through red lights and stop signs without thinking about it (very
stupid). Recently, since becoming a randonneur and frequently wearing
my clubs jersey, I gave thought to stopping at EVERY red light and
stop sign and did so for a while. But here's where my thoughts
started to diverge: "What is the intention of this traffic control
device?" Is it to make people stop at random intersections and at
random times. Nope. Man has created laws so that we can live civilly
with one another and as a result, we've created stop-signs and other
traffic control devices. Not to inconvenience anyone, but for the
sole purpose of making a specific point in our common spaces safer.
So that we all know how to act as regards the others around us, to
keep us _all_ safe. Most intersections are designed to move traffic
(read: cars) as a primary design parameter with timed lights and the
predictable sequence of green, yellow, then red; pedestrians second
with crosswalks and walk signs; and maybe bikes as a distant third in
most cases with, at best, a bike lane that has a sensor that is
triggered by the bikes presence or at worst, having to behave as a car
crossing an 8 land "boulevard" but at a slight fraction of the speed
worried you may not make it through the yellow light. None of these
are ideal for any user (being able to go whenever one approaches an
intersection I think would be preferred by all) but the cyclist is
expected to behave as a car albeit at much slower speeds. I think
most municipalities are happy with the status quo, some are negligent
to users other than a car, and some still are trying to think
progressively, as noted by the article from ID that was recently quoted.
It's sad that AZ law doesn't show respect to the lives of ALL of its
citizens because of a select few that are misbehaving. Maybe
encouraging folks to vote differently could result in changes for the
good of all? In the meantime, I think that encouraging folks to
respect AZ traffic laws is the right approach and a great start to
what will be a very long battle to gain ground. I pose this a bit
rhetorically, but I wonder what the fines/penalties are for auto-
pedestrian and auto-auto accidents are in AZ?
Wrapping up, regardless of what you do concerning lights, stop-signs
and what-not, ride safe, ride alert, and respect other users of our
shared spaces. You're always going to irritate SOME person in a car,
just by your presence, however sad that is, its inevitable. Some
folks just can't stand us for whatever reasons. You can do your best
to limit the others, though.
-Joshua
PDX, OR
Jan Heine
>Wrapping up, regardless of what you do concerning lights, stop-signs
>and what-not, ride safe, ride alert, and respect other users of our
>shared spaces. You're always going to irritate SOME person in a
>car, just by your presence, however sad that is, its inevitable.
>Some folks just can't stand us for whatever reasons. You can do
>your best to limit the others, though.
Your points appear to be borne out by the facts on the ground here in
Seattle. Cycling has changed radically here in the 18 years since I
moved here.
The biggest difference has been the number of cyclists. It used to be
that relatively few people cycled, but they were mostly law-abiding.
Seattle cyclists really were "model cyclists," often chiding one
another when somebody did not put a foot down at a stop sign, but did
a track stand instead. Even so, we all had numerous incidents of road
rage, especially in the suburbs, where cyclists were seen as "Seattle
liberals".
Lately, many more people cycle, everywhere, and many of the new
cyclists do not follow the laws, whether willfully or due to
ignorance. Overall, cyclist behavior has become worse, and when you
add that more cyclists are on the road, you might expect that
motorists' hostility would have grown. However, the opposite is the
case, and road rage toward cyclists almost has disappeared.
I believe the change in motorist behavior is due to the fact that
cycling has become mainstream. Now almost everybody has a
sister/co-worker/dentist/acquaintance who rides. Thus, cyclists no
longer are seen as "alien," but as people like everybody else. And
thus, we are judged by our individual actions, rather than
stereotyped as "Seattle liberals/law-breaking messengers/whatever".
(I suspect the willfully law-breaking cyclists still experience road
rage incidents, but I have little sympathy for them.)
Whether we roll through an occasional, deserted stop sign or not
appears to have had little impact on how people behave toward
cyclists in Seattle.
Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
2116 Western Ave.
Seattle WA 98121
http://www.vintagebicyclepress.com
Mike Dayton
Folks interested in this topic may want to look at the Peloton Project,
( http://www.thepelotonproject.com/ ) an NC-based group that is
working to reduce hostility between motorists and cyclists by 1)
collaborating with local law enforcement agencies, 2) developing
education programs for motorists and cyclists, and 3) encouraging
cyclists to ride safely, predictably, and responsibly on the road.
Central to the group's message is that cyclists must obey motor
vehicle laws, which includes stopping at all red lights and stop
signs. That's consistent with RUSA's rules.
Thanks,
Mike Dayton / Raleigh, NC
Dodger
Right. Guys who act this way get thrown in jail. Same standard should
be used for drivers...
SOME cyclists ride dangerously, we've all seen it. But in my
experience this is the exception rather than the rule: riding against
traffic, riding at night without a light, etc. Most thinking people
will blame the cyclist in these situations. So what happens when there
isn't some obviously stupid act by the cyclist? The cyclist still
deserved it?
I can't think of a moral way to justify a driver using a car to run
down a cyclist. It doesn't matter if 10 or 10,000 cyclists run a stop
sign, fail to signal or ride 3 abreast. Change the law. Support your
local advocacy groups. Model good behavior. Just don't tolerate
anybody saying 'he deserved it'.
I don't know when life got so cheap, but I am hopeful that we will
eventually look back and consider these the 'dark days' of cycling, a
terrible time back when drivers routinely were excused for killing
someone who only was trying to make it to the store, or home from
work, or possibly having a little fun.
Peace,
Dodger
more here: http://1200km.blogspot.com/2010/07/holding-cyclists-and-drivers.html
Lloyd
ride. (Same goes for driving.) It's about way more than Stop signs and
red lights. The law isn't perfect, that's for sure, but most cycling
laws will in all likelihood keep me safer than if I ignore them.
Motorists are often drunk, distracted, angry, medicated, texting,
talking, or sleep deprived. They're dangerous! My voice is about to
give out for yelling at them. But some of the cyclists in my town are
among the most arrogant bunch of jerks I know. They have no regard for
the rules of road. Some of them may die, a few because of their own
stupidity. It's war out there, but my way is to follow the rules of
engagement. We share the road.
Lloyd
Veronica Tunucci
Wasn't it you I saw blow through those country stop signs on the Central
Coast 1000k?
Do you unclip and put your foot down?
Best regards,
Veronica
-----Original Message-----
From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of
Greetings,
Thanks,
--
El Puerco
I understand where you're coming from. But you sound like a battered
wife: "If we only behaved better, then everyone will love us and give
us the respect we deserve." Don't you see that cyclists are seen by
the general driving public as nuisances. According to most we
shouldn't even be out there annoying 'law abiding' drivers and even
worse, "scaring" them. It doesn't matter how good we "behave" on the
road. I don't give a shit what motorists think. Just don't hit me
and leave me my space.
There just isn't enough education either for motorist or cyclists and
ignorance breeds contempt. We hate them and they hate us. We barely
tolerate each other.
I say to you, Jim, judge not lest ye be judged. If Jesus were on a
bike, he would be hated even more than OBL. If you want to kill
someone make sure they're riding a bike and not only will you not be
prosecuted, you might even be lauded.
Jaime
> My hope in writing this is that its read by some of the more
> experienced cyclists, the ones who should be setting an example to the
> newer riders. I think anyone who rides brevets falls into this
> category.
>
> Constructively,
> Jim Verheul
>
> On Aug 31, 7:28 am, Mike Sturgill <mikesturg...@cox.net> wrote:
>
Charles Coldwell
On Sep 1, 2010, at 2:10 AM, JEV wrote:
> On one hand you have to look AZ law and say."Wholly crap, you can kill
> a cyclist and its only a civil penalty??!! ...and its up to a MAXIMUM
> of $1000!!! WTF!!!! Whats the freaking minimum that one of our lives
> is worth??" In the movies it costs a whole lot more to have some one
> knocked off! ;-)
A ray of hope:
http://www.streetsblog.org/2010/08/16/paterson-signs-two-traffic-justice-bills-into-law/
--
Charles M. Coldwell, W1CMC
"Turn on, log in, tune out"
Belmont, Massachusetts, New England (FN42jj)
GPG ID: 852E052F
GPG FPR: 77E5 2B51 4907 F08A 7E92 DE80 AFA9 9A8F 852E 052F
Steady As She Goes
Why to consider following the rules on your bike:
RUSA Article 5
[snip]
[snip]
Ray
Jerry Zornes
Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
Ray
--