One issue holding me back

[Dan Collins]

Friends: I am 57 years old and have been cycling fairly seriously for the last couple of years. I've done many century rides and last fall did a solo 200 K in anticipation of attempting the brevet series this spring/summer. I've signed up for the 200k next weekend and then the 300K a couple of weeks later. I haven't committed to the 400K and 600 K yet because I wanted to see how the 300 K goes first. For what I have done so far, my legs and cardio fitness seem to be no problem. The issue is my butt.  Specifically my sit bones get very sore during and after long rides. I don't get saddle sores, just pain that feels like it is right on my sit bones. I have tried a variety of saddles, Sella Italia Gel, Koobie, and Sella Anatomica. I was hoping the hammock style leather saddle would be the answer. I know it is for a lot of people, but for me it didn't work. I have had my bike fitted professionally and I have researched a ton of information about fitting, so I have tinkered a bit to see if I could solve the problem. I decided for me I needed a saddle that put my weight on my soft tissues rather than having my weight on my sit bones. I know this is opposite of what appears to be conventional wisdom because many people get numbness or saddle sores from saddles where their weight is on the soft tissue. That doesn't seem to be a problem for me, plus I feel I can condition my soft tissue, but I can't condition my bones. My analogy is that I used to play a lot of handball. Anyone that has done that knows that when you start up playing handball your hands swell up tremendously the first few times you play, but after a while the soft tissue gets used to the beating and doesn't swell anymore. I now have a Fizik saddle that seems to be helping. It is narrower and rounded so I am not sitting right on my sitbones. However, I can still feel a problem that will probably become more of an issue on the longer brevets. I do stand on my pedals every 15 or 20 minutes to give my butt a break. Maybe stopping at control stops will be enough to keep the problem at bay. This is a long story to get to my question. Last night I was reading Dex Tooke's book about his RAAM experience. He mentioned in passing that he doubled up his shorts. I had never thought of wearing two pair of shorts so there would be two pads. I wear a medium short and probably would need to buy a large short in order to fit it over my medium shorts. Before I do that I thought I would ask if anyone else has tried that and if so, what was your experience with it. Thanks for your thoughts. Dan 

[Larry Parker]

Been there, done that. Depending on the cause of the problem, it can help. I never thought a larger short was necessary. The outer pair will stretch, and the inner ones are not so thick that they add much in girth. Shoot, just fed to bonking, over hydrated to dry as bone, your body probably changes size more than the thickness of lycra shorts underneath another pair.

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[Larry Powers]

No one solution works for everyone so take this for what it is worth.  I tried many saddles and found them all to be fairly uncomfortable.  I eventually tried a Brooks B17 and now use it almost exclusively.  I have a fairly upright riding style so the B17 works great for me.  It is fairly wide as bike saddles go and I have taken 89 hours to finish a 1200k and butt comfort was never an issue.  I am trying a Brooks Pro now, it is not quite as wide but is preferred by riders who ride a slightly more aggressive position.  You can see the full line of saddles at the Harris Cyclery website along with a decent description of what riding style each is best for.

Many people say these saddles are uncomfortable for the first few hundred miles while they break in.  They do break in and you will see it slowly confirm to your butt over time.  Maybe the Brooks B17 has broken in my butt because I can ride them comfortably right out of the box.  The Pro is even stiffer but I haven't found it to be a problem either.  I can tell you the the leather in the B17 champion is better then the standard and is worth the extra money.

My opinion is that shorts are to prevent chafing not to make the saddle more comfortable.  I have found that Ibex wool shorts fit me well and have an excellent light pad.  These paired with a B17 have treated me very well. 


Larry Powers
 
Get a bicycle.  You will not regret it if you live. - Mark Twain

---

Date: Wed, 1 May 2013 19:27:38 -0700
From: dancol...@gmail.com
To: ran...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Randon] One issue holding me back

Friends: I am 57 years old and have been cycling fairly seriously for the last couple of years. I've done many century rides and last fall did a solo 200 K in anticipation of attempting the brevet series this spring/summer. I've signed up for the 200k next weekend and then the 300K a couple of weeks later. I haven't committed to the 400K and 600 K yet because I wanted to see how the 300 K goes first. For what I have done so far, my legs and cardio fitness seem to be no problem. The issue is my butt.  Specifically my sit bones get very sore during and after long rides. I don't get saddle sores, just pain that feels like it is right on my sit bones. I have tried a variety of saddles, Sella Italia Gel, Koobie, and Sella Anatomica. I was hoping the hammock style leather saddle would be the answer. I know it is for a lot of people, but for me it didn't work. I have had my bike fitted professionally and I have researched a ton of information about fitting, so I have tinkered a bit to see if I could solve the problem. I decided for me I needed a saddle that put my weight on my soft tissues rather than having my weight on my sit bones. I know this is opposite of what appears to be conventional wisdom because many people get numbness or saddle sores from saddles where their weight is on the soft tissue. That doesn't seem to be a problem for me, plus I feel I can condition my soft tissue, but I can't condition my bones. My analogy is that I used to play a lot of handball. Anyone that has done that knows that when you start up playing handball your hands swell up tremendously the first few times you play, but after a while the soft tissue gets used to the beating and doesn't swell anymore. I now have a Fizik saddle that seems to be helping. It is narrower and rounded so I am not sitting right on my sitbones. However, I can still feel a problem that will probably become more of an issue on the longer brevets. I do stand on my pedals every 15 or 20 minutes to give my butt a break. Maybe stopping at control stops will be enough to keep the problem at bay. This is a long story to get to my question. Last night I was reading Dex Tooke's book about his RAAM experience. He mentioned in passing that he doubled up his shorts. I had never thought of wearing two pair of shorts so there would be two pads. I wear a medium short and probably would need to buy a large short in order to fit it over my medium shorts. Before I do that I thought I would ask if anyone else has tried that and if so, what was your experience with it. Thanks for your thoughts. Dan 

[joel dechter]

Ditto on the B17. Most comfortable saddle I ride. I too am trying a Brooks Pro on another bike but only have a few hundred miles on it . I find the pro stiffer and less comfortable to date. One note regarding my B17 is I must tighten it down (leather) using the provided tool about every 1000 miles. If I do not it changes my posture on the bike causing some discomfort.

Joel Dechter
 

---

From: lapow...@hotmail.com
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Randon] One issue holding me back
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 08:59:18 -0400

[David Steffen]

I am 63, recently returned to cycling after a 35 year hiatus, and add my vote in favor of the Brooks B17 saddle.

[Susan Otcenas]

Dan,

 

Glad to hear you've found a saddle that is helping somewhat.  Fizik makes a nice product that many people are very comfortable on.  Their saddles seem quite durable as well.   Good choice.

 

I think you are heading in the right direction by thinking about what shorts will further enhance your riding comfort on THIS saddle. (Saddles and shorts work in tandem, after all, and a pair of shorts that is comfy on one saddle may not work at all on another, and vice versa.)

 

Before you go down the road of trying to "double up" on shorts (which may solve one problem but create another in terms of chafing), I'd encourage you to give some more thought to the type of chamois that you are choosing.     I've been in the bicycle apparel industry for 15 years now, and have seen every possible combination and style of shorts and chamois that you can imagine.  Which is great, as people come in all shapes and sizes!   However, as we go up in mileage, it gets ever more critical to find just the right chamois to suit our needs to stay comfortable over so many miles.  What we can get away with for 80 miiles might be excruciating for 250. (Been there...)

 

Over the years speaking with customers as the increase mileage, I've noticed that their tendency is to go for more heavily padded shorts, believing that this will provide additional comfort when the sit bones begin to ache.   But I think most people are missing a very subtle point.   Rather than go for an all-over thicker chamois (which has more potential to chafe, and can have a diaper-y feeling), what seems to work best is to instead look for a chamois that has additional density just at the sit bone area.  Instead of just a thin or open cell foam that will compress and stay compressed at the sit bone, you'll want a denser closed cell or memory foam padding, that will resist fully compressing under your body weight, better supporting your weight and distributing pressure more widely.   You want to look for a chamois that doesn't also get thicker at the side "wings" (who needs that extra bulk on the upper thigh?), and that doesn't add a bunch of unnecessary padding at points that don't touch the saddle, and maintains the ability to breathe and vent moisture (since moisture can, you guessed it, be another cause of chafing).

 

I test ride lots of shorts.  Lots.  Last weekend, I test rode a brand spankin' new pair of Louis Garneau bibs on a 400K  (which is bold & brilliant when it works out, and really freakin' stupid when it doesn't... :-)    I'm already a fan of many LG bottoms, and wanted to test their new-ish 5Motion Chamois, which I hadn't ridden before.  You can see the shorts, and more importantly, a blow up of the chamois, here:  http://www.louisgarneau.com/us-en/product/305512/3858259/BibsShorts/ELITE_LAZER_BIB  (This is the men's version.  Obviously, I tested the women's version, but all the technology is the same)   LG got an awful lot right in these babies.  I was very impressed with the vented split back which not only kept me from overheating, but also made the chamois non-bunchy and conform to the body better.  If you look the closeu pof the chamois (click it and it will get bigger) you can see where they've added additional material just at the sitbone area, and kept the chamois thinner everywhere else.  The wings are thin and non-bulky.   Overall, I was VERY comfortable in these for 250 miles and would definitely recommend them to someone seeking to reduce or eliminate some sitbone soreness. (BTW, I have no financial interest in recommending these shorts, as we don't sell men's and right now, we don't sell the women's version of that bib either, as I just tested them this past weekend.  We'll bring the women's in eventually, as I was very pleased with them.)

 

I'll also comment that although I think your handball analogy is spot on, it's true of your sitbones, too.   It really does take time to condition your butt (soft tissues, sit bones and all) to the rigors of being in the saddle that long.  Also, you shouldn't expect that you will eliminate that soreness entirely.  We all get sore given enough miles.  They idea is to minimize it and develop strategies for relieving it, like standing to pedal, shifting body weight a bit in the saddle, a short break in controls, etc.  On multi-day brevets, I make sure to use a different style of shorts with a different chamois each day, to change up, even just a little, the specific pressure points.   I change my gloves each day for the same reason. 

 

I wish you the best of luck in your quest for comfort!

 

Tailwinds,

 

Susan

 

 

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Team Estrogen, Inc.

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---

From: ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Collins
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 7:28 PM

To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Randon] One issue holding me back

Friends: I am 57 years old and have been cycling fairly seriously for the last couple of years. I've done many century rides and last fall did a solo 200 K in anticipation of attempting the brevet series this spring/summer. I've signed up for the 200k next weekend and then the 300K a couple of weeks later. I haven't committed to the 400K and 600 K yet because I wanted to see how the 300 K goes first. For what I have done so far, my legs and cardio fitness seem to be no problem. The issue is my butt.  Specifically my sit bones get very sore during and after long rides. I don't get saddle sores, just pain that feels like it is right on my sit bones. I have tried a variety of saddles, Sella Italia Gel, Koobie, and Sella Anatomica. I was hoping the hammock style leather saddle would be the answer. I know it is for a lot of people, but for me it didn't work. I have had my bike fitted professionally and I have researched a ton of information about fitting, so I have tinkered a bit to see if I could solve the problem. I decided for me I needed a saddle that put my weight on my soft tissues rather than having my weight on my sit bones. I know this is opposite of what appears to be conventional wisdom because many people get numbness or saddle sores from saddles where their weight is on the soft tissue. That doesn't seem to be a problem for me, plus I feel I can condition my soft tissue, but I can't condition my bones. My analogy is that I used to play a lot of handball. Anyone that has done that knows that when you start up playing handball your hands swell up tremendously the first few times you play, but after a while the soft tissue gets used to the beating and doesn't swell anymore. I now have a Fizik saddle that seems to be helping. It is narrower and rounded so I am not sitting right on my sitbones. However, I can still feel a problem that will probably become more of an issue on the longer brevets. I do stand on my pedals every 15 or 20 minutes to give my butt a break. Maybe stopping at control stops will be enough to keep the problem at bay. This is a long story to get to my question. Last night I was reading Dex Tooke's book about his RAAM experience. He mentioned in passing that he doubled up his shorts. I had never thought of wearing two pair of shorts so there would be two pads. I wear a medium short and probably would need to buy a large short in order to fit it over my medium shorts. Before I do that I thought I would ask if anyone else has tried that and if so, what was your experience with it. Thanks for your thoughts. Dan 

--

[Peter Pesce]

I'm not a rando so my opinion may not be worth much, but the "saddle interface" has always been the toughest part for me. I tried a number of options too.

I really can't imagine there is any way NOT to support yourself on your bones, no matter how much conditioning you can do to your soft tissue. It's just the way we are made.

I can't help but think you would eventually be better off on a brooks-type saddle. Perhaps you need to try a different width? I'm a big guy but found the B17 narrow to be better for me than the standard.

Then there's the break in. I have never been able to break in Brooks the normal way - by riding. No matter how much I rode it just never seemed to improve. Out of desperation one day, I tried the Lon Haldeman method:

http://pactour.blogspot.com/2011/01/breaking-in-leather-saddle.html.

Yes, the purists are in full-on apoplexy by now, but I figured he's got more than a little experience in this department. And at least for me, the method worked. My B17 Narrow is awesome now.

Good luck.

Pete in CT

[Old5ten]

On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 11:17 AM, Susan Otcenas <su...@teamestrogen.com> wrote:

What we can get away with for 80 miiles might be excruciating for 250. 

 

i've found that is true for other factors as well.  my terry fly saddle was great for 100mi, not so great after 120mi, and downright painful at 200mi.  never had that problem on my selle italia pan am, using the same bike.  this also holds true for frames, tires, inflation pressures, etc.

another thing i would pay attention to is where your pad sits in relation to the saddle and sit bones.  many riders have the wide/thicker part of their pad above the saddle rather than on it.

elmar

[Bill Gobie]

I found that wearing two pairs of shorts can cause IT band pain if the
leg grippers overlap or are very close to each other. So use shorts
with very different leg lengths, or cut the grippers on one pair.
Overall I did not find much benefit from wearing two pairs of shorts.
As others have said, part of training for brevets is conditioning your
ass.

Professional fitting is good for ensuring your saddle height is
correct and addressing leg alignment problems. Beyond that, you're on
your own. Riders use the whole gamut of positions from laid-out racing
to very upright touring. You have to find the position that is the
best compromise for all the conditions of weather, terrain, strength
and fatigue you encounter.

If you have ridden many hundred miles on each of the saddles you have
tried, then perhaps you are right, more of the same is not going to
help, and you should try a much different saddle like a B-67 (there
are several 6x variants for modern vs old-fashioned seat clamps, so
get the right model). I know these saddles are very comfortable for
short rides. You might have to change to a more upright position with
a saddle like this. You might have bone bruises that are being re-
irritated by long rides. A wide saddle might let you ride the season
without re-injury, and in the future you might be able to change back
to a lower position with a narrower saddle.

Switching to a recumbent will solve your problem.

Bill

[Emily O'Brien]

One thing you might try is a neoprene cover like this: http://rooworld.shptron.com/p/mr-flitie-quintana-roo-neoprene-saddle-cover or http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1032452_-1_400197__400197
It's just neoprene, no gel or anything, and it's not very thick. I stumbled upon this because I was trying out a whole bunch of saddles and the one whose basic shape and amount of padding I liked best had a cutout, and I hated the cutout. So I put one of these on it, and couldn't feel the cutout anymore. It also adds just a bit of soft-ish padding, but because it's less than 1/4" thick it isn't enough to squish into and cause extra pressure and friction the way a saddle that's too soft can.

I second what Susan said about shorts. I'm actually not all that picky about the chamois, but the times I've had bunching and friction from it it's generally been from a chamois that was too thick and/or stiff, or the thickest part was significantly wider than my saddle. One other thing I've encountered is that using too much viscous chaomois cream (bag balm) made the chamois absorb it and become stiff and cause extra friction.

I was going to post a link to my saddle, but I can't find it for sale anymore. I actually got the first one out of a take-off bin at the bike shop, then managed to track down where it came from. I'm glad I bought a few at the time, now that they don't seem to make it anymore!

Or you could just go on rides that get you out of the saddle. I did the Appalachian Double Cross 1000k last year with the least amount of saddle soreness I have ever had on a long brevet, and I'm pretty sure that's because I was out of the saddle for so much of it. ;)

Emily


-----------------------------------
Dill Pickle
... gear for the extra mile

www.dillpicklegear.com
-----------------------------------

On May 2, 2013, at 6:33 PM, Bill Gobie <gobie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I found that wearing two pairs of shorts can cause IT band pain if the leg grippers overlap or are very close to each other. So use shorts with very different leg lengths, or cut the grippers on one pair. Overall I did not find much benefit from wearing two pairs of shorts. As others have said, part of training for brevets is conditioning your ass.
>
> Professional fitting is good for ensuring your saddle height is correct and addressing leg alignment problems. Beyond that, you're on your own. Riders use the whole gamut of positions from laid-out racing to very upright touring. You have to find the position that is the best compromise for all the conditions of weather, terrain, strength and fatigue you encounter.
>

> If you have ridden many hundred miles on each of the saddles you have tried, then perhaps you are right, more of the same is not going to help, and you should try a much different saddle like a B-67 (there are several 6x variants for modern vs old-fashioned seat clamps, so get the right model). I know these saddles are very comfortable for short rides. You might have to change to a more upright position with a saddle like this. You might have bone bruises that are being re-irritated by long rides. A wide saddle might let you ride the season without re-injury, and in the future you might be able to change back to a lower position with a narrower saddle.

>
> Switching to a recumbent will solve your problem.
>
> Bill
>
> On May 1, 2013, at 7:27 PM, Dan Collins wrote:
>
>> Friends: I am 57 years old and have been cycling fairly seriously for the last couple of years. I've done many century rides and last fall did a solo 200 K in anticipation of attempting the brevet series this spring/summer. I've signed up for the 200k next weekend and then the 300K a couple of weeks later. I haven't committed to the 400K and 600 K yet because I wanted to see how the 300 K goes first. For what I have done so far, my legs and cardio fitness seem to be no problem. The issue is my butt. Specifically my sit bones get very sore during and after long rides. I don't get saddle sores, just pain that feels like it is right on my sit bones. I have tried a variety of saddles, Sella Italia Gel, Koobie, and Sella Anatomica. I was hoping the hammock style leather saddle would be the answer. I know it is for a lot of people, but for me it didn't work. I have had my bike fitted professionally and I have researched a ton of information about fitting, so I have tinkered a bit to see if I could solve the problem. I decided for me I needed a saddle that put my weight on my soft tissues rather than having my weight on my sit bones. I know this is opposite of what appears to be conventional wisdom because many people get numbness or saddle sores from saddles where their weight is on the soft tissue. That doesn't seem to be a problem for me, plus I feel I can condition my soft tissue, but I can't condition my bones. My analogy is that I used to play a lot of handball. Anyone that has done that knows that when you start up playing handball your hands swell up tremendously the first few times you play, but after a while the soft tissue gets used to the beating and doesn't swell anymore. I now have a Fizik saddle that seems to be helping. It is narrower and rounded so I am not sitting right on my sitbones. However, I can still feel a problem that will probably become more of an issue on the longer brevets. I do stand on my pedals every 15 or 20 minutes to give my butt a break. Maybe stopping at control stops will be enough to keep the problem at bay. This is a long story to get to my question. Last night I was reading Dex Tooke's book about his RAAM experience. He mentioned in passing that he doubled up his shorts. I had never thought of wearing two pair of shorts so there would be two pads. I wear a medium short and probably would need to buy a large short in order to fit it over my medium shorts. Before I do that I thought I would ask if anyone else has tried that and if so, what was your experience with it. Thanks for your thoughts. Dan
>>
>

[Eric Peterson]

Hi Dan,

I had a similar problem when one of my saddles wore out and I replace it with what I thought was an equivalent model.

For me it turned out that the new saddle was too wide. Not a lot wide, just a little bit.

This was the opposite of what I would imagine, that a narrower seat would be comfortable for hundreds of miles, while a wider one became uncomfortable after about 75 miles or even less.

In my case the saddles that worked were the Terry Flys, and the ones that did not were the Terry Liberators.

As for the doubled-up shorts I have no experience with that.

Eric Peterson #2812

Naperville, IL

[Dan Collins]

Thank you all for your suggestions. I decided that I will try to condition my Selle An-Atomica using Lon Haldeman's article on conditioning the Brooks saddles. The SA saddles look very similar to the Brooks saddles. I'm not sure how the leather compares.  Mine never got soft, so maybe conditioning it will make it more comfortable. If so I'll give it another chance. In the meantime for my 200K this weekend I think I'll stick with the Fizik and slop on the cream. I may look into some of the LA shorts too. If I get really desperate I'll try the double shorts for the longer brevets. Thanks again. Dan

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Dan Collins <dancol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Friends: I am 57 years old and have been cycling fairly seriously for the last couple of years. I've done many century rides and last fall did a solo 200 K in anticipation of attempting the brevet series this spring/summer. I've signed up for the 200k next weekend and then the 300K a couple of weeks later. I haven't committed to the 400K and 600 K yet because I wanted to see how the 300 K goes first. For what I have done so far, my legs and cardio fitness seem to be no problem. The issue is my butt.  Specifically my sit bones get very sore during and after long rides. I don't get saddle sores, just pain that feels like it is right on my sit bones. I have tried a variety of saddles, Sella Italia Gel, Koobie, and Sella Anatomica. I was hoping the hammock style leather saddle would be the answer. I know it is for a lot of people, but for me it didn't work. I have had my bike fitted professionally and I have researched a ton of information about fitting, so I have tinkered a bit to see if I could solve the problem. I decided for me I needed a saddle that put my weight on my soft tissues rather than having my weight on my sit bones. I know this is opposite of what appears to be conventional wisdom because many people get numbness or saddle sores from saddles where their weight is on the soft tissue. That doesn't seem to be a problem for me, plus I feel I can condition my soft tissue, but I can't condition my bones. My analogy is that I used to play a lot of handball. Anyone that has done that knows that when you start up playing handball your hands swell up tremendously the first few times you play, but after a while the soft tissue gets used to the beating and doesn't swell anymore. I now have a Fizik saddle that seems to be helping. It is narrower and rounded so I am not sitting right on my sitbones. However, I can still feel a problem that will probably become more of an issue on the longer brevets. I do stand on my pedals every 15 or 20 minutes to give my butt a break. Maybe stopping at control stops will be enough to keep the problem at bay. This is a long story to get to my question. Last night I was reading Dex Tooke's book about his RAAM experience. He mentioned in passing that he doubled up his shorts. I had never thought of wearing two pair of shorts so there would be two pads. I wear a medium short and probably would need to buy a large short in order to fit it over my medium shorts. Before I do that I thought I would ask if anyone else has tried that and if so, what was your experience with it. Thanks for your thoughts. Dan 

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Dan Collins

[Hamish Moffatt]

Hi Dan,

I don't think you should need to soften up the SA this way. Have you fiddled with all the variables - angle, height and setback? It's surprising what a difference a small tweak can make.

I've been riding a Sella An-atomica since January. I moved it to a new bike in March and rode a 400 and a 600 on it and found it moderately uncomfortable towards the end of a long day. On a 1000km ride last week I put the saddle up a few millimetres to solve a different problem (ITB pain) and suddenly the seat was heaps more comfortable!

I had a Brooks B17 and a Brooks Imperial before that. I liked both (though the B17 more) but they were a nuisance to keep dry. The B17 got wet a few times too many and sagged.


Hamish

[Jim House - Custom Computer Solutions]

Dan,

 

You can do what Lon did but remember he used 4 or 5 saddles all of the time in rotation.  He did not sit on one saddle until it was time to replace it.

If you do this you will take 50 – 70 % of the life of the saddle away.

 

I have had my longest Brooks Pro last over 30 years and over 100,000 miles.  I still am riding a Brooks that came on a 1973 International without issue.

And my new Brooks Pro is only 5 years old but still looks like the day it came out of the box.

 

If you do the treatment your saddle will ride like it is 10 years old and it will take 10-15 years of life out of the saddle.

 

With any leather saddle your butt breaks into the saddle not the other way around.

 

This is just my prospective on leather.

 

Jim House

Maumee, OH

[Dan Collins]

Too late on not doing the conditioning process on the SAA. I did it this morning. As per Lon's instructions I took it out for 10 minutes and will ride it for an hour tomorrow. It felt much softer and more comfortable on the 10 minute ride, although 10 minutes obviously won't tell the story. Here is my perspective on the SAA. I bought over the winter as a close out on last year's model for $89.00, so if I ruin it, I won't feel too bad. Right from the start the leather was rock hard in the sit bone area of the saddle. I put about 400-500 miles on it and it did not get any softer or any more comfortable. I fiddled with every adjustment (height, setback, angle, etc.) to try to improve the comfort. Also, I ride in my aero bars at least 40% of the time. These leather saddles all seem to have a fastener right at the nose of the saddle which isn't exactly the best place when in the aero position. When I tilted it down very slightly, I felt like I was sliding off the front of the seat because that smooth hard leather is fairly slippery. I really wanted to give that saddle every chance to be the answer because it seems like so may endurance riders find the leather saddles so comfortable. Maybe 400-500 miles wasn't enough of a chance. Anyway, it is definitely softer now, so I'll see how it feels after an hour tomorrow. If it feels good, I might try it on the 200K Saturday. If doing this conditioning process results in me being comfortable and I still get 15,000 or 20,000 miles out of this saddle, I would be overjoyed. I never planned on getting anywhere near that kind of mileage out of any saddle. I'll let you know how the experiment goes. Dan

[Larry Parker]

I have had 3 SAAs and I can't imagine them being called "Hard!"  I have had my tension bolt almost all the way out on two of them to try to stiffen them a little!  Maybe you  need to ease off the tension a little?   The only one I thought was anything like hard was one of the old models, before the cro-moly steel rails.  the softer steel bent and eventually the saddle felt "hard" because the leather was giving and I was sitting on the top of the seatpost.  THAT was not fun, and a little embarrassing that it took me as long as it did to figure out why my saddle was so uncomfortable. 

 

All in all, I prefer my Brooks, though I have left the SAA on my commuter/tourer because it is more likely to get wet or even sit out in the rain. I keep thinking about trying a Rivet, but I don't know if I really NEED another saddle. . .

 

Larry

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Dan Collins

[Dan Collins]

Friends: Here's my saddle report for the "conditioned" Sella An-Atomica. I did the 200K today. The wind was brutal. 20 to 30 mph gusting to 40-50. We had a head wind for the first 75 miles because the wind actually shifted about the time we turned from the SW to the NW. For 40 straight miles I couldn't get over 8 mph. On one downhill I stopped pedaling and the wind brought me to a stop. The bottom line was that a 200K that took me 7:45 last year took me 9:45 this year, so I gave the saddle a thorough test. It passed with flying colors. I never even felt my butt the entire time. This was the same saddle that made my sit-bones so sore that I was not able to ride for 3 hours before I did the Lon Haldeman conditioning earlier this week. I know some of you think the conditioning process will reduce the life expectancy of the saddle. However, for me it changed the saddle from the pile that would never be used again to my number one saddle. If it only lasts a year I would be thrilled, but I assume I'll get more time out of it. On to the 300K in three weeks! Dan

--
Dan Collins

[Dan Collins]

Friends: Here's  my 300K report. The conditioned SAA saddle was great for the 300K. I'm not sure my fitness was as good as I thought (very hilly route), but my butt was never an issue. Thanks for the suggestion. Dan

On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:27 PM, Dan Collins <dancol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Friends: I am 57 years old and have been cycling fairly seriously for the last couple of years. I've done many century rides and last fall did a solo 200 K in anticipation of attempting the brevet series this spring/summer. I've signed up for the 200k next weekend and then the 300K a couple of weeks later. I haven't committed to the 400K and 600 K yet because I wanted to see how the 300 K goes first. For what I have done so far, my legs and cardio fitness seem to be no problem. The issue is my butt.  Specifically my sit bones get very sore during and after long rides. I don't get saddle sores, just pain that feels like it is right on my sit bones. I have tried a variety of saddles, Sella Italia Gel, Koobie, and Sella Anatomica. I was hoping the hammock style leather saddle would be the answer. I know it is for a lot of people, but for me it didn't work. I have had my bike fitted professionally and I have researched a ton of information about fitting, so I have tinkered a bit to see if I could solve the problem. I decided for me I needed a saddle that put my weight on my soft tissues rather than having my weight on my sit bones. I know this is opposite of what appears to be conventional wisdom because many people get numbness or saddle sores from saddles where their weight is on the soft tissue. That doesn't seem to be a problem for me, plus I feel I can condition my soft tissue, but I can't condition my bones. My analogy is that I used to play a lot of handball. Anyone that has done that knows that when you start up playing handball your hands swell up tremendously the first few times you play, but after a while the soft tissue gets used to the beating and doesn't swell anymore. I now have a Fizik saddle that seems to be helping. It is narrower and rounded so I am not sitting right on my sitbones. However, I can still feel a problem that will probably become more of an issue on the longer brevets. I do stand on my pedals every 15 or 20 minutes to give my butt a break. Maybe stopping at control stops will be enough to keep the problem at bay. This is a long story to get to my question. Last night I was reading Dex Tooke's book about his RAAM experience. He mentioned in passing that he doubled up his shorts. I had never thought of wearing two pair of shorts so there would be two pads. I wear a medium short and probably would need to buy a large short in order to fit it over my medium shorts. Before I do that I thought I would ask if anyone else has tried that and if so, what was your experience with it. Thanks for your thoughts. Dan 

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Dan Collins

[Ken Freeman]

Dan, congrats on your recent long rides, that's a lot better than I've been doing this year!  

I want to echo and expand on a point Hamish suggested: At least in their early days, when Tom Miller had sent out a detailed set of saddle setup instructions with each saddle he sold, you were supposed to (per Tom's guidance) tighten the screw gradually until the sitbone area was about tight enough to cause light bruising (my interpretation), and then back it off by quarter turns.  Ultimately you wanted smooth support of your butt distributed over the saddle, not just at the sit bones.  This distribution of pressure reduced pressure-induced comfort issues over the long rides.

This instruction is totally different from what is possible on a Brooks.  It means that if your S-A feels too stiff, you should back off on the screw tension bit by bit.  If you back off too much, it becomes hammocky, and you might not be able to keep your sit-bones in the right place (far enough back to optimize perineal contact but not so you're sitting on the cantle plate), even with extensive experimentation with tilt.

In contrast with a Brooks, if you tighten it and increase the tension in the leather, the leather does not spring back if you then loosen it.  That's why Brooks recommend only tightening it small increments, and only tightening it infrequently.  

On the modern post-Miller website now run by S-A, the setup instructions no longer give us those instructions.  I don't know if the leather has changed, or some good knowledge has been lost (or gained!), or what.  It was a complex setup process, but it could give excellent results.  

If one is about to consider your $$ spent on the S-A a waste, maybe it's worthwhile to add this variable into your saddle setup experimentation before cutting the thing to pieces or doing something else that is not reversible.  I found this variable to be very important in my S-A setups.

Because treatments beyond Proofide or the S-A procedure (basically don't let it get wet) can affect the elasticity and long-term stretch of leather, I think screw adjustment should be explored thoroughly before exploring non-reversible aggressive leather treatments.

Ken Freeman
Ann Arbor, MI USA