Lactic acid build up in feet

[Orangecomo]

I just returned from doing a supported tour in death valley and am dealing with very sore tootsies had hot foot issues on several days even my size bigger then normal shoes didn't stop it. Would compression socks at night helped. Have had a reflexology foot massage and will be soaking in Epsom salts. Any other ideas from the peanut gallery . Btw death valley was gorgeous and had great challenging riding - I went with adventure cycling but chis kostmans company adventure corps was also there at the same time.
Amy

Sent from my iPhone

[Lynne Fitz]

maybe the soles of your shoes are giving it up? Not as stiff as they
should be? I just replaced a pair of shoes after a couple of painful
200ks. Better now.

[Michelle Williams]

Thanks for posing this question Amy.
 
I too have bouts with hot foot and know that I should move my cleats back, buy bigger shoes, wear arch support.  For a year or so I had no hotfoot at all using those techniques.  Now it is back with a vengence.  
 
So how often should one change their shoes and pedals?  I purchased new arch support but it did not seem to help for long.  I would love to hear opinions on compression socks for hot foot.
 
Thanks,
 
Michelle from Mississippi
RUSA 3609
 

 

> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 15:20:10 -0700
> Subject: [Randon] Re: Lactic acid build up in feet
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[Eric Keller]

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Orangecomo <orang...@yahoo.com> wrote:

I just returned from doing a supported tour in death valley and am dealing with  very sore tootsies had hot foot issues on several days even my size bigger then normal shoes didn't stop it. 

As I understand it, hot foot is caused by a neuroma.  I had and excruciating case of hot foot that was caused by half shoe covers that were too tight across the ball of my foot, thus cutting into one of the nerves.  I have also suffered from Morton's neuroma, which seems to affect the second toe the most, but manifests itself as pain behind the toe which is similar to hot foot.  This showed up after a 200k, so I thought it would go away, but it never would have done so on its own.  In the case of Morton's, it is best to get it treated early. 
Eric

[William D. Volk]

FWIW: I had to bail at mile 95 in the Kitchen Creek 200k (in 2011) because my feet were in agony.  Believe me, with almost all the climbing behind me, I was not a happy camper.

I tried orthopedic inserts etc... was even considering surgery ...  Keen Arroyo II sandals saved me.  Did a few 200k events since and no issues.  Use them every day to ride to work, they are fine to walk in.

One point, they are cut extremely large.  My normal shoe size is a 12, these are 11 and they are loose.  I am a larger rider and I'm pushing HARD on them.

Bill Volk

Carlsbad, CA

[Ralph Rognstad Jr.]

I have not had a problem with hotfoot since I switched to sandals several years ago. If I feel like hotfoot is coming on, I loosen the sandal slightly to allow for the expansion of my foot. I even wear sandals in the winter in sub-freezing weather. Just add thick wool socks under a goretex cover.

Ralph

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[Susan Otcenas]

I had trouble with hot foot in my Sidi shoes.  I ended up going one size larger to give my feet more wiggle room AND I replaced the paper thin insoles with an off-the-shefl "memory foam" type insole.  Fixed the problem right up.

 

If your shoes used to be comfortable but aren't anymore, maybe your insole is totally flattened out and a new, cushier one might help.

 

YMMV.

 

Susan

 

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[NickBull]

Interestingly, I generally do not have problems with hotfoot, but thought it would be nice to wear sandals for a summer brevet to keep cooler.  Unfortunately, the sandals caused hotfoot because they were too flexy.  Shimano sandals.  Too bad because I otherwise like them a lot, but just can't use them for rando distances.

Nick

[William D. Volk]

Nick,

I'm using Keen Arroyo 2's with a Shimano SPD 'platform' pedal.  Given my 'mass' that trick may work for you :-)

William D. Volk

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[Leslie Tierstein]

I had horrible problems with the Shimano sandals.  The Keene sandals are much better.

[Albert Meerscheidt]

Foot problems seem so individualistic. People I know who like Keens don't like Shimanos and vice versa.

 I started dealing with hot foot issues after a very hot, very hilly 600. My solutions are cleat back, sidi dominators, custom orthopedic shoe beds, alternated with Shimano sandals with metatarsal pads glued inside them. I will start with one, and then switch to the other at the overnight control. I practice pulling up on each pedal stroke - that helps sometimes.

If you wear the sandals, after the neoprene socks, and the wool socks come off, be sure to sun screen your toes.

What helped on one mountain climb was at every stop, get off the bike, take off the shoes and walk around barefoot. On another it was soaking the feet in the nearby stream, on another rolling my feet on a can of frozen orange juice.

Good luck,

Albert

--
Thanks,

Albert
albert.me...@gmail.com

[NickBull]

Hey, Albert,

Sure hoping you didn't put the cans of frozen orange juice back on the shelf after that :-)

Maybe I'll try Keene sandals sometime, I've been wearing their walking sandals for about five years and really like them.

I should clarify my earlier statement that I don't get hotfoot.  In my first year of randonneuring, I developed terrible foot problems that started around my first 400km and 600km, and just got worse as my second year of rando started.  All the solutions proposed in this thread, I tried, and my feet got worse and worse to the point that it was painful to walk from the metro to work and back.  Finally I threw in the towel and made an appointment to see a podiatrist.  Within half an hour of walking in her door, she had shown me why I was having problems (unusually long "middle" foot bones that were not well supported by the outer foot bones) as well as how to make home-made "custom orthotics" to solve the problem (basically, make a V of moleskin tape under the outer bones [opening of the V is facing forward] to create a "valley" under the middle bones so that the weight was taken off the middle bones and transferred to the outer bones).  That's all it took.  I ride with my cleats set back at the end of their tracks, on Crank Bros Quattro road pedals that have a wide area of support, and I use decently-stiff Specialized Comp mountain bike shoes with their regular insoles and the V of moleskin.  But beyond that, my problem was solved with standard, off-the-shelf stuff, for a total cost of $175 to see the podiatrist.  I think it is the single most effective expenditure I have ever made in my life.  If I walk or ride a long way in shoes that don't have the "V" my feet start aching.  But with the "V" I never have any problems.

Moral of the story to people with foot problems:  Sure, go ahead and try to solve foot problems yourself, but don't try for so long that you make the problem permanent or get yourself into expensive surgery.  Go see someone who knows what they are doing.  You only get two feet per lifetime, and it's hard to walk or ride your bike if you ruin them.

Nick

On Tuesday, April 3, 2012 10:06:01 PM UTC-4, Albert wrote:

Foot problems seem so individualistic. People I know who like Keens don't like Shimanos and vice versa.

 I started dealing with hot foot issues after a very hot, very hilly 600. My solutions are cleat back, sidi dominators, custom orthopedic shoe beds, alternated with Shimano sandals with metatarsal pads glued inside them. I will start with one, and then switch to the other at the overnight control. I practice pulling up on each pedal stroke - that helps sometimes.

If you wear the sandals, after the neoprene socks, and the wool socks come off, be sure to sun screen your toes.

What helped on one mountain climb was at every stop, get off the bike, take off the shoes and walk around barefoot. On another it was soaking the feet in the nearby stream, on another rolling my feet on a can of frozen orange juice.

Good luck,

Albert

[NickBull]

Hey, Albert,

Sure hoping you didn't put the cans of frozen orange juice back on the shelf after that :-)

Maybe I'll try Keene sandals sometime, I've been wearing their walking sandals for about five years and really like them.

I should clarify my earlier statement that I don't get hotfoot.  In my first year of randonneuring, I developed terrible foot problems that started around my first 400km and 600km, and just got worse as my second year of rando started.  All the solutions proposed in this thread, I tried, and my feet got worse and worse to the point that it was painful to walk from the metro to work and back.  Finally I threw in the towel and made an appointment to see a podiatrist.  Within half an hour of walking in her door, she had shown me why I was having problems (unusually long "middle" foot bones that were not well supported by the outer foot bones) as well as how to make home-made "custom orthotics" to solve the problem (basically, make a V of moleskin tape under the outer bones [opening of the V is facing forward] to create a "valley" under the middle bones so that the weight was taken off the middle bones and transferred to the outer bones).  That's all it took.  I ride with my cleats set back at the end of their tracks, on Crank Bros Quattro road pedals that have a wide area of support, and I use decently-stiff Specialized Comp mountain bike shoes with their regular insoles and the V of moleskin.  But beyond that, my problem was solved with standard, off-the-shelf stuff, for a total cost of $175 to see the podiatrist.  I think it is the single most effective expenditure I have ever made in my life.  If I walk or ride a long way in shoes that don't have the "V" my feet start aching.  But with the "V" I never have any problems.

Moral of the story to people with foot problems:  Sure, go ahead and try to solve foot problems yourself, but don't try for so long that you make the problem permanent or get yourself into expensive surgery.  Go see someone who knows what they are doing.  You only get two feet per lifetime, and it's hard to walk or ride your bike if you ruin them.

Nick

On Tuesday, April 3, 2012 10:06:01 PM UTC-4, Albert wrote:

Foot problems seem so individualistic. People I know who like Keens don't like Shimanos and vice versa.

 I started dealing with hot foot issues after a very hot, very hilly 600. My solutions are cleat back, sidi dominators, custom orthopedic shoe beds, alternated with Shimano sandals with metatarsal pads glued inside them. I will start with one, and then switch to the other at the overnight control. I practice pulling up on each pedal stroke - that helps sometimes.

If you wear the sandals, after the neoprene socks, and the wool socks come off, be sure to sun screen your toes.

What helped on one mountain climb was at every stop, get off the bike, take off the shoes and walk around barefoot. On another it was soaking the feet in the nearby stream, on another rolling my feet on a can of frozen orange juice.

Good luck,

Albert

[Sara Huston]

Hi Amy,

Are you sure it wasn't from standing all day in that insanely long line to get a lottery ticket in Shoshone?  ;)  Just joking!  But I'm sure those folks had some seriously sore feet by the end of the day.

I hope your feet are feeling better by now!  I also had very sore/achy feet during the trip, and what I thought might be hot foot (have heard folks describe that, but haven't experienced it before), and I don't normally.  I kept fantasizing about a nice cool stream to stick my feet in.  I normally get toe numbness that I have to keep attending to, and that happened also.  But having achy sore burny feet like I did on this trip was unusual.  I chalked it up to a few things.

1. Fewer miles on my bike this winter than normal, especially for before a trip of this length.

2. The very long (relative to what I am used to) hill climbs and descents we did on this trip combined with long stretches of flat to false flat slight uphill into strong headwinds.  I'm not sure about the terrain you are used to riding, but I'm used to riding rolling terrain, and this was not it.  I'm not used to sustained climbing for 5 to 16 miles at a stretch and then descending for that much again.  In my usual terrain I have a habit of taking micro breaks on the bike, changing my pedal stroke, shifting relative pressure on feet, butt, hands, pressure on top of foot vs. bottom, etc.  I found that in so much "slow slog" riding (long climbs, long stretches w/ stiff headwind) and also long descents, I wasn't doing those micro-breaks/changing things up to give parts of my body a little break as much. I was putting more pressure on the soles of my feet for longer stretches of time than usual.  Also with the wide temperature differences between when we set out in the morning and later in the day, I found that I was having to adjust the straps on my shoes several times a day, they would start feeling too tight.

3. We were getting off the bike and walking around in our bike shoes a good bit to see the sights. Much more than I normally do during a ride or brevet.

Anyhow, just wanted to chime in that these might have also contributed to your foot soreness, too, and that it might be a one-time thing specific to this tour and may not be something that will continue to be a problem for you - at least I hope so!  I'll second what others said though that if your footbeds or shoes are getting along in age, that may be a factor. (Neither true in my case.)  And our feet do change as we get along in age also - so that might be an issue, too... 

Happy riding!

-Sara

------------------------
Sara Huston
Topsham, Maine
------------------------

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 11:39 AM, Orangecomo <orang...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Ken Luke]

What worked for me is:

- Over-sized shoes. My street shoes are around 11.5 US, my bike shoes are 12.5. Hey, in a pinch they'll double as water-skis…

- Being careful not to over-tighten the straps. I leave the front two velcro straps at a very moderate tension, and basically control tightness via the ratcheting ankle strap. My shoes are set so that I only loosen the ankle strap to put them on, the other straps are never touched.

The hot foot I experienced was definitely nerve related. I tried several different shoes, even SIDI megas, and the only thing that worked was buying several sizes up. I have flat feet, so I think that my foot is spread out wider than average(?)

On Apr 2, 2012, at 8:39 AM, Orangecomo wrote:

> I just returned from doing a supported tour in death valley and am dealing with very sore tootsies had hot foot issues on several days even my size bigger then normal shoes didn't stop it. Would compression socks at night helped. Have had a reflexology foot massage and will be soaking in Epsom salts. Any other ideas from the peanut gallery . Btw death valley was gorgeous and had great challenging riding - I went with adventure cycling but chis kostmans company adventure corps was also there at the same time.
> Amy
>

------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Luke kenl...@gmail.com (971)207-6548

"Complexity is easy; Simplicity is hard."
-- Edmund Keane
------------------------------------------------------------

[DrCodfish]

Orangecomo said: “Any other ideas from the peanut gallery”

I’ve been holding my tongue, but that bit about feet in the cold
stream pushed me over the edge. Here is a bit of my experience but
please remember this: I am a peanut (from the gallery) of one.

Some years ago I rode my first 1000Km brevet and ended up with serious
issues at all three of the famous contact points. I had numb fingers,
a very tender rear and numb toes. I rode this event to determine if
PBP was a reasonable gambit for me the following year. Though I was
pretty much finished before I got done and as I mentioned I was in
need of help for the contact points, I determined that if I prepared
well in the coming months I should have a fair chance of finishing PBP
2003.

I rode that ride and finished in fine fashion. The adjustments I had
made in the intervening year worked fair to good: My fingers were
much less numb, My butt was still H-burger (I had not yet become a
Brooks de-vo-tay) my feet however were still messed up. Thinking I
was now a bonafide randonneur I embarked on another 1000K brevet
through the Cascade mountains a few weeks later. It turned out that
two long events seemed to be a problem. My feet stayed numb until
after christmas.

Some years later after more refinements I undertook to ride the
Cascade 1200, and then a few weeks later I rode the Gold Rush 1200.
BIG MISTAKE! I had serious foot issues on the C1200, but on the Gold
Rush I discovered a torture that would make terrorists sing. I
stopped on more than one occasion and actually did soak my feet in a
cold stream. I had numb feet from my mets forward for months, and I
came to the conclusion that more of this would surely result in
permanent damage, and any way I certainly did not want to go through
that kind of exquisite pain again, ever.

I saw a doc, I saw a podiatrist. And I researched equipment. Based
on what I learned I was leaning toward a pair of custom made shoes.
At the time there were two prime vendors, I interviewed both and based
on what I learned and how they responded to my inquiries I decided to
have custom shoes made by a company in Colorado.

I was skeptical:

1 This was work done via mail order
2 They were outrageously expensive, and
3 The guy promised me that though he might not be able to 100% solve
my entire problem but he guaranteed me that he would solve it mostly.
Skeptical but I bit.

It took much longer to get these shoes than promised. When I first
tried them on I was pretty sure he had sent me the wrong shoes, there
was a VERY prominent bump in the middle of the insole just behind the
metatarsals. I would not say it was uncomfortable, but it certainly
did not conform to the shape of the soles my feet.

I called and let him know I thought there might be a minor gigantic
mistake. He talked me in off the ledge, suggested I try them on the
bike a little at a time, get used to them, wade in not dive in, all
that. Problem was I only have numb feet on rides longer than 400K,
AND I was just a few weeks out from the start of the VanIsle 1200Km.
What to do?

I rode the VanIsle. I started in the new shoes but I had my trusty
torture boots at the ready, just incase. Revelation: I never
experienced a problem. It was a gift. When I finished the VanIsle I
wrote to Don and let him know that the shoes were like magic. I had
slight numbness in my little toes, and I could certainly live with
that. Don responded saying I should send the shoes right back as he
was certain he could fix the problem so that I would have no
numbness. Of course I was even more skeptical, plus 90% is good
enough for me, and too, I didn’t t want him messing with these new
found wonders. He urged me and said it would not take so long this
time. My inner skeptic was almost screaming. Against my better
judgment I sent them back.

Don made me a complete new set of orthotics, which did indeed make the
shoes as perfect as they could be as far as numbness could be
measured.

That was in 2005 I think and I have not looked back. I rode PBP ’07
and lots of miles in between and I have never had any foot
problems.I'm stuill using these shoes exclusively.

I don’t know how many miles I have on these shoes except to say that
it is all the miles I have ridden since 2005. They are getting pretty
well worn and so I looked on the website recently to check and see
what a new pair would cost. It took my breath away, I think I can
wring a few more miles from these shoes but if and when they do
disintegrate I will most likely mortgage the house and buy another
pair.

Really, I was ready to give up long rides, and these shoes made the
difference, FOR ME. I am not saying anyone else should go this route,
in fact I suspect that if a person went to a podiatrist who knows
anything about cycling and got a decent pair of orthotics and then
found a pair of very stiff soled shoes to mate them to, you would
probably get the same kind of relief.

I made a post similar to this a few years ago and a rider decided to
do the same and was apparently thoroughly dissatisfied with the
product so please, understand, I’m talking about me, and me alone, not
suggesting that anyone else follow in my footsteps. Perhaps the take
home message is that if you have foot numbness issues there is hope.

Yr Pal Dr Codfish