Tires for the Cascade 1200

[Bill Watts]

I want to follow up on the recent discussion of 28mm tires by asking for advice about tires for the Cascade 1200.   This is a somewhat tedious story, so feel free to bail out now.

I ended up DNFing on the last Cascade 1200, and am looking to settle some unfinished business.  These things are always complicated, but I attribute my DNF to two causes: 1) my derailleur hanger was bent in transit, and the Seattle shop that tried to bend it back in shape broke it; and 2) I had 8 flat tires, seven in the rear.  I rode with a temporary derailleur hanger, which was attached by my quick release, and I never had more than three or four gears available on my rear cassette.  The flat tires in the rear meant that I had to keep re-adjusting the derailleur hanger, and it all got to be too much.  I DNF'd before Loup Loup pass.

I was riding a brand new, hand-built bike, and I had intended to equip it with Grand Bois Cypres tires.  I made a mistake in ordering, though, and accidentally got the more narrow Cerfs.  Because of large logging trucks and other concerns, I rode a fair bit on the shoulder, and I found Washington State roads to be pretty littered with debris, perhaps because of a long winter freeze.  (Lest you think this was a problem with my wheel, I did always find something in my tires after a flat: a thorn, a bit of glass, metal from blown tires, etc.)

This past summer, I did two long rides--London Edinburgh London and Super Brevet Scandinavia--and I rode from one ride to the next, for a total of 2700 miles in August.  I rode Grand Bois Cypres all the way, and I had a normal number of flats--maybe three on LEL, one or two between the two rides, and one or two on SBS.  

So my question is this: Should I ride something bomb-proof, such as 32mm Gatoskins on this year's Cascade, in order to deal with all the rubbish on the road?  I'm a bit reluctant to do that.  I rode Gatorskins in my earlier randonneuring career, and on PBP 2011, and they always gave me numb hands.  Or, should I go with the Grand Bois Cypres tires that served me so well last summer, and assume that my problems with Washington roads had to do with the more narrow Cerfs that I was running, or perhaps with a run of bad luck?

Needless to say, i will be carrying a back-up derailleur hanger this year.

Thanks for any guidance you can offer,

Bill Watts

RUSA No. 5365

[Bill Gobie]

I heard a rumor of your travails. Sorry to hear it was all true.

Since the front tire is less puncture prone you could run a Cypres on the front to provide a soft ride for your hands, and use a Gatorskin on the rear. Or start with Cypres on both wheels and carry a Gatorskin spare.

Lower pressure makes tires more puncture resistant. If you haven't experimented with lower pressure in your rear tire you could try that.

Bill

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[Jan Heine]

Bill,

Your bad luck on the Cascade 1200 sounds terrible. It also sounds atypical. I've done the Cascade 1200 twice, and not a single flat. The last time, I rode shaved-down Grand Bois Hetre 650B x 42 mm tires, which already had done PBP, the Raid Pyreneen and many brevets, and were getting quite thin. As Bill Gobie says, the lower pressure of the wider tires - I run mine at about 45 psi - means you just roll over debris. So going to 32 mm tires will help.

To your question, speed is crucial to finish within the time limit, unless last time, you DNF'd because you ran out of tubes and patches. A bombproof tire will make you at least 10% slower, which will be at least 6 hours in the Cascade 1200. (Your off-the-bike time should remain the same, unless you need to stop longer because the vibrations have injured your hands.) Do you think you'll have 6 hours to spare if you have only one or two flats?

Alternatively, you could try tire wipers and try to reduce your flat incidence that way. Putting a little sealant in your tubes will seal small holes. A BQ reader rides the fragile Challenge Paris-Roubaix tires in New Mexico through goatheads, with sealant in his tubes.

Bring a spare tire, so you can replace the tire without having to find the debris lodged in the tire - debris that may cause multiple flats if you don't remove it. You can deal with the tire at the overnight control. And think of where you had to ride on the shoulder, and see if you can ride those sections at night, when there is no traffic. Then you can ride on the road and avoid the debris-strewn shoulder. I recall only a few sections with significant traffic, but then I rode over the North Cascades and through Yakima at night...

Good luck on the Cascades 1200!

Disclosure: Bicycle Quarterly's sister company, Compass Bicycles, sells Grand Bois and Compass tires, as well as tire wipers.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly

[Bill Watts]

Thank you, Bill and Jan, for your very helpful suggestions.  i especially like the idea of carrying a Gatorskin as a back-up tire.  I was carrying a Cerf as a back-up in 2012, but I gave it to another rider whose tire failed him altogether--in one of several ironic twists on the ride he DNF'd before me.  A very kind volunteer, whose name I have forgotten, did lend me a Gatorskin towards the end, but it was too late by then, and I had lost too much time.  In truth, my more basic problem was with the derailleur hanger, and this cost me large amounts of time and created many additional problems.

As a long-time reader of BQ, Jan, I have often marveled at how few flats you have.  I don't think your experience is typical, though, and I wonder what accounts for it.  I expect that you are lighter than many other cyclists, including me, and that may be part of the story.  The Cascade 1200 in 2012 was my first time riding in Washington State, and while I found the roads beautiful, I was surprised by the amount of debris on them.  Unlike other areas I have ridden, there seem to be more trucks on country roads in Washington, perhaps because there are fewer highways to take them where they need to go.  And perhaps you and other riders familiar with these roads have developed habits that allow you to avoid the debris that causes flats.

As I said earlier, though, my Grand Blois Cypres tires performed very well last year in Europe, and I think their performance was tied to the quality of the roads.  I had three flats on LEL, and two of them were in the north, where the roads are sometimes rough.  I had no flats riding from The Hague to Skagen, at the tip of Denmark which was a trip of 850 miles.  Dutch, German and Danish roads must be among the best in the world--they are smooth and well maintained--and the Cypres seems very well suited to those conditions.

I don't know how one would do it, but I would like to see some kind of systematic study of how various tires hold up in more challenging conditions.  I posed my original question because I did not know whether the particular road conditions in Washington State are better suited to a more durable tire.  I am still not sure of the answer to this question, but I will be more confident going back with Grand Bois Cypres tires, and I'll be interested to see how they fare. 

Best wishes,

Bill Watts

On Friday, April 4, 2014 6:21:47 PM UTC-4, Jan Heine wrote: 

Bill,Your bad luck on the Cascade 1200 sounds terrible. It also sounds atypical. I've done the Cascade 1200 twice, and not a single flat. The last time, I rode shaved-down Grand Bois Hetre 650B x 42 mm tires, which already had done PBP, the Raid Pyreneen and many brevets, and were getting quite thin. As Bill Gobie says, the lower pressure of the wider tires - I run mine at about 45 psi - means you just roll over debris. So going to 32 mm tires will help.To your question, speed is crucial to finish within the time limit, unless last time, you DNF'd because you ran out of tubes and patches. A bombproof tire will make you at least 10% slower, which will be at least 6 hours in the Cascade 1200. (Your off-the-bike time should remain the same, unless you need to stop longer because the vibrations have injured your hands.) Do you think you'll have 6 hours to spare if you have only one or two flats?Alternatively, you could try tire wipers and try to reduce your flat incidence that way. Putting a little sealant in your tubes will seal small holes. A BQ reader rides the fragile Challenge Paris-Roubaix tires in New Mexico through goatheads, with sealant in his tubes.Bring a spare tire, so you can replace the tire without having to find the debris lodged in the tire - debris that may cause multiple flats if you don't remove it. You can deal with the tire at the overnight control. And think of where you had to ride on the shoulder, and see if you can ride those sections at night, when there is no traffic. Then you can ride on the road and avoid the debris-strewn shoulder. I recall only a few sections with significant traffic, but then I rode over the North Cascades and through Yakima at night...Good luck on the Cascades 1200!Disclosure: Bicycle Quarterly's sister company, Compass Bicycles, sells Grand Bois and Compass tires, as well as tire wipers.Jan HeineEditorBicycle Quarterly

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Gobie
Sent: Apr 4, 2014 2:23 PM
To: Randon Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Randon] Tires for the Cascade 1200

I heard a rumor of your travails. Sorry to hear it was all true.

Since the front tire is less puncture prone you could run a Cypres on the front to provide a soft ride for your hands, and use a Gatorskin on the rear. Or start with Cypres on both wheels and carry a Gatorskin spare.

Lower pressure makes tires more puncture resistant. If you haven't experimented with lower pressure in your rear tire you could try that.

Bill

On Mon, Apr 4, 2014 at 1:52 PM, Bill Watts < wmhw ... @ gmail.com > wrote:

I want to follow up on the recent discussion of 28mm tires by asking for advice about tires for the Cascade 1200.   This is a somewhat tedious story, so feel free to bail out now.

I ended up DNFing on the last Cascade 1200, and am looking to settle some unfinished business.  These things are always complicated, but I attribute my DNF to two causes: 1) my derailleur hanger was bent in transit, and the Seattle shop that tried to bend it back in shape broke it; and 2) I had 8 flat tires, seven in the rear.  I rode with a temporary derailleur hanger, which was attached by my quick release, and I never had more than three or four gears available on my rear cassette.  The flat tires in the rear meant that I had to keep re-adjusting the derailleur hanger, and it all got to be too much.  I DNF'd before Loup Loup pass.

I was riding a brand new, hand-built bike, and I had intended to equip it with Grand Bois Cypres tires.  I made a mistake in ordering, though, and accidentally got the more narrow Cerfs.  Because of large logging trucks and other concerns, I rode a fair bit on the shoulder, and I found Washington State roads to be pretty littered with debris, perhaps because of a long winter freeze.  (Lest you think this was a problem with my wheel, I did always find something in my tires after a flat: a thorn, a bit of glass, metal from blown tires, etc.)

This past summer, I did two long rides--London Edinburgh London and Super Brevet Scandinavia--and I rode from one ride to the next, for a total of 2700 miles in August.  I rode Grand Bois Cypres all the way, and I had a normal number of flats--maybe three on LEL, one or two between the two rides, and one or two on SBS.  

So my question is this: Should I ride something bomb-proof, such as 32mm Gatoskins on this year's Cascade, in order to deal with all the rubbish on the road?  I'm a bit reluctant to do that.  I rode Gatorskins in my earlier randonneuring career, and on PBP 2011, and they always gave me numb hands.  Or, should I go with the Grand Bois Cypres tires that served me so well last summer, and assume that my problems with Washington roads had to do with the more narrow Cerfs that I was running, or perhaps with a run of bad luck?

Needless to say, i will be carrying a back-up derailleur hanger this year.

Thanks for any guidance you can offer,

Bill Watts

RUSSIAN No. 5365

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[Bill Gobie]

Jan is pretty lean. I think he also has the skills to avoid Michelin wires at night. I am neither. Nonetheless I don't get many flats. Most of my flats are old patches failing. In 3-4000 miles my Compass 26x1.75 tires have picked up one goathead thorn (on the C1200) and one Michelin wire. The goathead sealed so tightly the tire did not go soft for three days after the last day the tire could have picked it up. I can run those big tires at 40-45 psi, which is key to avoiding flats. 

I began using less pressure in my tires a decade ago to reduce the number of flats I got. Using 80-90 psi instead of 120 in 28 and 32 mm tires made a dramatic difference, and I could not tell I was any slower. Jan's tests demonstrating rolling resistance is not much affected by pressure on real pavement has encouraged me to drop to significantly lower pressures and use wide lightweight tires instead of armored tires on all my bikes unless the weight on the rear tire demands nearly full pressure (such as for a camping load).

Bill

[DrCodfish]

On Friday, April 4, 2014 1:52:27 PM UTC-7, Bill Watts wrote:

" I had 8 flat tires, seven in the rear." 

Wow, that's demoralizing right there, and given you experience cited on other rides (albeit on better roads in Europe) reason enough to look for different tires.

"Because of large logging trucks and other concerns, I rode a fair bit on the shoulder, and I found Washington State roads to be pretty littered with debris, perhaps because of a long winter freeze.  (Lest you think this was a problem with my wheel, I did always find something in my tires after a flat: a thorn, a bit of glass, metal from blown tires, etc.)"

Ummm, welcome to rural Washington state.  We've got Boeing, and Microsoft but rural WA runs on production ag and natural resource extraction, and the tax base in those rural, sparsely populated counties is low compared to the urban areas.  That means dollars for infrastructure are hard to come by and spread pretty thin.    Think narrow or no shoulders, heavy, coarse chip seal, low maintenance and high commercial traffic (Washington was settled pretty much after the railroad barons had made their millions) . Add in the fact that the C-1200 is traditionally a spring event when there has been little maintenance (after harsh winters) or sweeping done and selecting tires which lean a little more toward the durability end of the spectrum starts to look like shear genius.  I live out in the sticks in a low income, low maintenance high truck traffic county here in Washington.  My season for ultra light, faster tires is essentially never.  those tires might save me 10% in event time, however, I prefer to spend 10% ,more time riding than spending 10% of my time fixing flats.  Don't get me wrong, I am not disputing scientific findings, but my experience says something else:  I've ridden PBP twice, once on 28mm Gator skins and once On Gran Boise(28 or 30mm I think).  I was faster on the G-skins (not much, maybe a couple hours) and had no flats,  I had one flat with the Gran Boise, but my body felt MUCH less beat up on the lighter tires.  There was no discomfort-o-meter to scientifically prove or measure the difference, but I know how I felt. I won't ride my next (or any) 1200K event on either of these tires. there are just too many good choices in between. 

This past summer, I did two long rides--London Edinburgh London and Super Brevet Scandinavia--and I rode from one ride to the next, for a total of 2700 miles in August.  I rode Grand Bois Cypres all the way, and I had a normal number of flats--maybe three on LEL, one or two between the two rides, and one or two on SBS.

That sounds better but your 'normal', is still way too many flats for me, particularly on the those roads which I assume compare favorably to rural WA roads.  Another data point in favor of selecting tires somewhere in between,  Maybe what you had was an acceptable number of flats (for you).    

So my question is this: Should I ride something bomb-proof, such as 32mm Gatoskins on this year's Cascade, in order to deal with all the rubbish on the road?  I'm a bit reluctant to do that.  I rode Gatorskins in my earlier randonneuring career, and on PBP 2011, and they always gave me numb hands.  Or, should I go with the Grand Bois Cypres tires that served me so well last summer, and assume that my problems with Washington roads had to do with the more narrow Cerfs that I was running, or perhaps with a run of bad luck?

 

My answer is no and, ... no.  I think somewhere in between is a better choice.  I think the roads you encountered last year are pretty similar to what you should expect this year.  And by the way, having ridden the C-1200 I'll say, .. those are not the worst roads we have. 

I believe the best advice you have received here is, if you change nothing else, ride wider tires at lower pressures.  The other gem has to do with your weight.  I'm a big load, I know that I'd be faster, and have fewer flats if I lost weight, tires aside.  That might be the best tire advice you'll get, particularly if you have weight to loose.  The tires in the middle which I choose are wide and lower pressure (Rivendell Jack Browns @70psi).  One of the models also has thicker tread and a Kevlar belt.  I believe this is one of those situations where going to extremes, in either direction is the wrong choice.

Lastly, start the ride with new, or new-ish tires.  Not necessarily brand new tires but less than 300 or so miles on them.  We always talk about frequency of flats per mile.  I can't say it is a fact but I suspect that if you put on new tires every time you went for a rode, your flat/miles frequency would go way down.  Forget about the price, how much will you spend to get to and from the C-1200?  What will you pay in motel bills, event jersey, (don't forget a good rain jacket) chamois cream, if you want to save money get Boyd's instead of Starbux.    

 

I wish you the best on your ride Bill, looking forward to hearing tales of your success.

Yer Pal Dr Codfish

[Jan Heine]

That skill is easy: Don't ride on the shoulder where all the debris accumulates. At night, there is little traffic, and it's much safer to ride to the left of the fog line. When a car approaches from the rear, which usually only happens once an hour on our courses, you can always move over and ride on the shoulder for 30 seconds until they have passed.

More about how to prevent flats is here:

http://janheine.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/preventing-flat-tires/

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly

I think he also has the skills to avoid Michelin wires at night. I am neither.

[Haggismuncher]

Bill,  

It does seem that comfort comes at a price,  

Down here in Australia David Killick, (President of Audax Tasmania) has had the same problem: 

http://aboutthebike.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/long-term-review-grand-bois-cerf.html . Tasmania's roads sound very similar to Washington's.

 

Sorry Jan, but as a "heavier" (read fat) rider, I'll stick to something with more puncture protection.

Regards

Chris 

 

[Jan Heine]

Comfort and speed come at a price, unless you can go to wider tires. Unfortunately, many of us are limited in how wide a tire we can fit on our bikes. For many years, I rode a bike that barely could fit 32 mm tires. I was glad to move up to 42 mm tires on my new bike, with no loss in speed.

Beyond that, flats are random. In PBP 2007, I had three flats, but none in my other three PBP.

That said, if a tire's flat frequency dramatically increases (and it's not just the same piece of debris re-puncturing the tire), then the tire is getting worn and should be replaced. During my "three-flat" PBP, I rode well-worn tires, after I calculated that the thinner tread would save me about an hour overall. I may have cut it a bit close, but the three flats cost me less than 15 minutes, so I came out ahead in the end. And that was indeed my fastest PBP of all four.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly

-----Original Message-----
From: Haggismuncher
Sent: Apr 5, 2014 3:28 PM
To: ran...@googlegroups.com
Cc: gobie...@gmail.com, Bill Watts , Jan Heine , Jan Heine
Subject: Re: [Randon] Tires for the Cascade 1200

--

[Eric Peterson]

As a remote reader, with limited rides in the SIR area, I find this discussion very interesting.

My riding in that area has been limited to a few trips between Seattle and Whidbey Island, some of the WTS rides, a 200K in 2011 starting in Olympia, and the first 400K of the Crater Lake in 2010.

The reason for my response is to ask about tires for the Crater Lake 1000K, as I am hoping to do that ride in August.

Would the advice for the Cascade 1200 apply equally to that ride?
Or are the roads on that ride different in some respect?
I have been OK with the tires currently on my bike, I think Pasela-TG 28 on the rear, and Continental Gatorskin 25 on the front.

Thanks,

Eric Peterson

[Susan Otcenas]

>>> I posed my original question because I did not know whether the particular road conditions in Washington State are better suited to a more durable tire.

 

Because I ride 650c, my tire choices are extremely limited.   Although there are a few choices in 650c x 23, I have a grand total of one, yes ONE and only one, option in 650c x 28.    (While others might find that limiting, I find it strangely freeing.   "Decision" made, move on to obsessing about something else.)

 

That said, it means I've been riding the same tire all over tarnation for quite some time.   Which makes me a control subject of sorts for flats per mile ridden on a state by state basis.  ;-)

 

The last five SIR brevets I've done have ALL involved flat tires, for a total of six flats.   It rained on all five of those rides (surprise!), though thankfully it was not *always* raining during the actual occurrence of said flats.

 

My last five brevets in EASTERN Washington (Desert River Randonneurs) involved two rides with three flat tires.  One of those flats was the "same flat twice" as I missed the culprit the first time and flatted again a few miles later.  duh.  And one of the others was on gravel, fwiw.    Three of the five brevets were completely dry, two had some rain.   It rained on the 2-flat day (though not until after both flats occurred) and it was dry as a bone on the gravel flat day.

 

 My last five OREGON brevets have involved zero flats.  Someone find me some wood to rap my knuckles on please!  Somewhat remarkably, all five were dry.  (Dang it, I said wood, where is that WOOD, people??)

 

Am I getting flats because there's more and/or worse road debris in western Washington or because it rains a lot, or some combination of the above?  I dunno.  Regardless, it's entirely unscientific but if I ride in western Washington, I expect to get a flat tire, and I expect it to rain.    I still keep going back though.  Go figure.

 

Consider this a vote for durability.

 

Susan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

=============================

Susan Otcenas

Team Estrogen, Inc.

www.TeamEstrogen.com

877-310-4592

==============================

Follow our TE fan page on Facebook!

Look for "teamestrogen.com"

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[Bill Watts]

Since I began this thread, I thought I would follow up to say that I rode Continental Four Seasons on the Cascade 1200, and did not have a single flat.  In fact, I rode a fleche, a complete SR series, and a second 1200K in France on the same set of tires, and had only two pinch flats.  I have only just retired the rear tire, after about 5,000 miles, and I'm still riding the front tire.  Thanks to those who suggested this option, which served me well.

Bill Watts

RUSA 5365

[Michal Young]

The reason for my response is to ask about tires for the Crater Lake 1000K, as I am hoping to do that ride in August.

Would the advice for the Cascade 1200 apply equally to that ride?
Or are the roads on that ride different in some respect?

I rode the CL 1000 last year, and the C1200 this year.  My (very imperfect, sleep-deprived) recollection is that there is less gravel or really bad roads on the CL 1000.  Actually I don't recall any gravel at all on the CL 1000, though there are probably lots of things I don't remember.   I did flat three times on the last 100k of the CL 1000, but the first was glass, the second was because I failed to find and remove the glass, and the third was a pinch-flat from a hunk of metal as I tried to make up time from the two earlier flats.  

[Charles Coldwell]

On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Bill Watts <wmhw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I had 8 flat tires, seven in the rear.

[...]

> This past summer, I did two long rides--London Edinburgh London and Super
> Brevet Scandinavia--and I rode from one ride to the next, for a total of
> 2700 miles in August.

I just finished the 2014 VanIsle 1200 on an old set of Panaracer
Paselas (700x28) that also rode PBP '07 and the Cascade 1200 on 2010.
On all three of those I had only a single flat, during PBP '07.

--
Charles M. Coldwell, W1CMC
Belmont, Massachusetts, New England
"Turn on, log in, tune out"