My back wheel says, "Bah Humbug"

[Jim Bronson]

My previous back wheel failures have been quite well chronicled on
various Internet email lists. For this particular wheel, it was the
final insult after the hub internals failed on me on PBP, leaving me
stranded 10 km short of Villaines, France.

So I was out riding a 200K on Saturday the 23rd, in order to to finish
my distance goals for the year (5000K). Now, I've been running the
Velocity Deep V's this year and they have been really great. The
first rim I have had that can really stand up to the punishment of
being ridden by a 6'7" rider in sometimes less than ideal conditions.
Well I looked down on my 200K and saw that the wheel was slightly
wobbly. I thought to myself, "well after all these thousands of miles
that Deep V is finally out of true". I didn't think much of it and
was able to successfully complete the ride and make my distance goal.

Fast forward to Monday the 24th. Some friends of mine from my local
email list are going out for a ride at 2pm. Well, I just can't resist
that so I hurriedly complete my Christmas shopping (yes, i always wait
until the last minute for a lot of the things). So i get back home
and get ready, then head out on the Rivendell to meet my friends at an
intersection about 2.5 miles from my house.

Now, I have just started running the Grand Bois Cypress tires and I
notice that something is rubbing as soon as I leave the house. As I
ride, I play with the quick releases on the brakes themselves and that
doesn't seem to help. I know that, there isn't a lot of clearance
with my short reach brakes running the 700x30 Grand Bois and I started
thinking to myself that maybe it wasn't such a good idea to run such
wide tires with these short reach brakes, that it didn't give me a lot
of margin of error for when a wheel came out of true, which clearly
was happening. Maybe the 700x28's or even 700x26 would be a better
choice for this bike.

I finally arrived at the corner of 51st and Berkman and got off the
bike and checked it out. Sure enough, the back tire was rubbing
against the brake. The rim was going even more out of true. I have
Campy style levers and Shimano style brakes so I opened the quick
releases on both the brakes and the levers and that seemed to do the
trick as far as not rubbing. However, I wondered if it would go even
more out of true.

Then I saw it as I kept looking at the wheel.

The hub flange had failed. A huge crack had propagated into a
complete break, and in fact the spoke elbow was tearing the broken
piece of metal away from the hub body as I rode. This is a DT Swiss
Hugi hub, 32H, laced to Velocity Deep V with DT double butted spokes,
in case you were wondering.

I called my friends and told them I would have to retrieve a different
bike from the house. That one had a stuck brake cable that was
causing the rear brake to drag but that situation was certainly more
tenable than a wheel that was sure to come unglued at any moment. So
I rode it home and got the other bike, and we went on a very nice
35ish mile ride.

But this is a concern. This is the 2nd hub flange I have ruined in
the past 6 months, on different bikes with different wheels. One was
a 36H DuraAce laced with straight 14ga spokes to a touring rim and the
other was this DT Swiss Hugi 32H/Velocity Deep V/DT Swiss butted
combo. It seems that I have eliminated the rims as a source of wheel
failures but now the failure mode seems to be my hub flanges.

In all fairness to the DT Swiss Hugi however, that hub probably had 25
or 30 thousand miles on it. And it had been laced up THREE that's
right THREE different times, to an Open Pro, an A719 and a Deep V. I
whacked the Open Pro and cracked the A719 around the holes, but the
Deep V was up to the challenge and more, it proved to be tougher than
my hub.

Some lessons from this:

-Flange strength is important
-More spokes may be better.
-Don't re-use hubs so many times.
-Deep V rims are every bit as tough as I thought they were.

So now I am still in search of the bomb-proof 9/10 Campy compatible
back wheel. I am thinking of cold spacing the Rivendell frame to
135mm and using a White Industries 135 mm Campy hub (not listed on
their website but I hear they will produce such a thing) with 40
that's right FORTY spokes laced to a Deep V. I will use this combo
for randonneuring and not so much for riding around town where weight
may matter a bit more. But when it comes to the middle of nowhere,
weight be damned, I need reliability!

Guess that's it for now. Your thoughts welcomed.

--
I ride my bike, to ride my bike.

[Lynne Fitz]

maybe time for a tandem hub? It would require even wider rear
spacing, but they are sturdy.

[Tom Marchand]

I feel your pain. I've been through 3 rear wheels in 3 years with 2
of those being in the last 6 months. Each time with the same
symptoms: Rim cracking around the drive side spokes. It's driving
me nuts.

[Dark Horse]

> Then I saw it as I kept looking at the wheel.
>
> The hub flange had failed.  A huge crack had propagated into a
> complete break, and in fact the spoke elbow was tearing the broken
> piece of metal away from the hub body as I rode.  This is a DT Swiss
> Hugi hub, 32H, laced to Velocity Deep V with DT double butted spokes,
> in case you were wondering.
>

For my and other information, was this a DT-Hugi from some years ago?
Or was it one of the more current DT-Swiss incarnations? In either
event, it might be a warranteeable failure, and worth a phone call.
DT N.A. is (970) 242-9232

>
> But this is a concern.  This is the 2nd hub flange I have ruined in
> the past 6 months, on different bikes with different wheels.  One was
> a 36H DuraAce laced with straight 14ga spokes to a touring rim and the
> other was this DT Swiss Hugi 32H/Velocity Deep V/DT Swiss butted
> combo.  It seems that I have eliminated the rims as a source of wheel
> failures but now the failure mode seems to be my hub flanges.

I lost count years ago of the # of wheels I've built, and I almost
never use 14g straight spokes. With very few exceptions (usually
loaded tandems), I'll use them only under duress. They are significant
less elastic than butted spokes, and this takes a toll on rims and hub
flanges. Counterintuitive as hell, innit? I would suggest a copy of
Brandt's classic and excellent book, if you've not already done so.
Velocity DV's, and DT RR1.2's are both stiff enough that they can be
built with surprisingly light spokes, even at your size. Revolution(s)
in front and 14/15/Revolutions in back are a usual combination, even
for very large people. The DV is
an extremely stiff rim, but it can be made to ride fairly well by
using lighter spokes, with a longevity benefit as well.

> Some lessons from this:
>
> -Flange strength is important

And CNC'd is not necessarily better. In some applications, it's
worse.

> -More spokes may be better.

Yup. 36 if ncecssary, 40 if ya gotta'.

> -Don't re-use hubs so many times.

Religious war. As long as you're using the same rim, you can cross-
lace the new rim without taking the spokes out of the hub. This works
very well and can be done multiple times. Each new set of spokes in a
hub changes the profile of the spoke holes: gouging a bit here,
reshaping the chamfer a bit there. The thing about cross-lacing is
that the spokes maintain their orientation at the hub, and dont't need
to be freshly "matched" to the spoke holes. This is a good thing.

> -Deep V rims are every bit as tough as I thought they were.

Within their limitations, yes they are.

>
> So now I am still in search of the bomb-proof 9/10 Campy compatible
> back wheel.  I am thinking of cold spacing the Rivendell frame to
> 135mm

I thought he spaced the production road frames at 133 or 132.5,
for exactly that reason.

and using a White Industries 135 mm Campy hub (not listed on
> their website but I hear they will produce such a thing) with 40
> that's right FORTY spokes laced to a Deep V.  I will use this combo
> for randonneuring and not so much for riding around town where weight
> may matter a bit more.  But when it comes to the middle of nowhere,
> weight be damned, I need reliability!

....and let slip the dogs of war.
Some points about the White hubs.
1)Yes they make a 135mm Campagnolo-configured hub.

2)The hubs use small and inexpensive bearings, especially the
rear. If you live in a rainy climate you may replace
quite a few of them. Better bearings can be had, but those hubs
cost HOW much?

3)The disassembly requires removal of pressed-in axle caps. Not
press-on, press-IN. After a few thousand miles (in that
rainy country) it may require a long driver and some impact to
get them out. I have found this to be true multiple times.

4)The adjusting collars are held in place with 3mm setscrews. They
have 2mm Allen heads and are accessible only
through holes in the hubshell. Disassembly requires those to
come out as well, and they're not necessarily a slip-fit.
To this add your choice of rain/dark/cold fingers/tiny tools by
the side of the road. Include that the Allen sockets
tend to collect rusty dirt, bake well, and serve.

5)The hubshells (and flanges) are machined, not forged.


I'll plead guilty to being a Phil Wood guy. What can I say, I like
to solve a problem ONCE, and not have to worry
about the same issue reincarnating. The hubshells are forged: I
have NEVER seen a broken Phil flange or even heard
of one. Singles, tandems, X-touring, wheelchairs, track: Never.
Their axles are an overkill piece of 1/2" hollow stainless
tubing with large friendly axle caps threaded onto the ends.
Never seen a bent axle either.
Four-pawl ratchet mechanism, high-spec 60012RS and R8 bearings,
machined stainless freehub body.
Disassembly requires two 5mm Allens and ~1minute, on the road in
the dark. I've found very D#mn few buy-it-once .
parts in this industry, and Phil hubs are some of them

No, they don't do a Campagnolo-compatible hub. Within their design,
they can't. There is this cool little part called a
JTEK shiftmate.

http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm

It's not a Kluge, There's a nice little cartridge bearing in
there, and they work really, really well. I've got many
customers who want unofficial drivetrain combinations, and I've
not had any trouble with these at all. I've been running
one on my own rain/brevet bike for almost a year now, and no
troubles at all. It's an excellent solution.
Further, you get access to all of shimano's gearing in the 9/10
range. And Shimano cassettes are a LOT
cheaper than even low-range Campagnolo. Not to mention easier to
find.

Overall, if you're going to keep using the DV's, then build a
wheelset for those rims. The same hub and spokes can be
reused many times. I recall that Jobst Brandt had a wheelset with
some ridiculous mileage on the spokes and hubs
(like 200k miles) and had cross-laced a number of sets of rims
onto them. I think that your flange-breaking trouble has
two causes. First would be building multiple rims onto the same
hub without due care to the spoke location. I
would point the second finger at spokes which may be quite a bit
heavier than they need to be. Further, if you can use
high-flange hubs, I would do so. Reason being that the spoke
holes are farther apart, and this too is a good thing.

Eamon

[Beezodog]

Are your washers actually under the heads of the spokes or are they on
the alternate side of the flange away from the head? I ask because the
hubs I usually encounter have countersunk holes into which the elbow
side of the spoke head fits. The Wheelsmith spokes I favor are not
flat on the rear side of the head (away from the "W"). They instead
taper into something of a cone shape.

On Dec 26, 9:29 am, Jan Heine <hein...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> At 8:48 AM +0000 12/26/07, randon group wrote:
>
> (I use
> washers under the heads of modern spokes that are intended for
> thicker hub flanges.)

[pamela blalock]

Jim wrote

<<<
In all fairness to the DT Swiss Hugi however, that hub probably had 25
or 30 thousand miles on it. And it had been laced up THREE that's
right THREE different times, to an Open Pro, an A719 and a Deep V.
>>>

Jim, I'm not sure if anyone else mentioned this possibility, but if when the
wheel was rebuilt, the lacing wasn't the same orientation, it could cause
this type of failure. The spokes seat into the hub flange, when the wheel is
first built and if on rebuild, they end up going a different direction or
even a different angle, you can end up with precisely this type of failure.

pamela blalock pgb at blayleys.com
care-free in watertown, ma http://www.blayleys.com

[Jim Bronson]

That is entirely possible. The builder made a comment to me along the
lines of "those velocity like to be cranked down" so it's quite
possible the spoke tension was way too high. At least he finally gave
in on using double-butted spokes per my specification.

The rim on this wheel is still in great shape so I procured a Centaur
rear hub from Gnashbar for $55.99 with discount and extra 20% discount
using code XMAS20 at checkout.

The penultimate wheel will have to wait. I don't have money for it
now. I charged the items I bought online but I am trying to get away
from that.

On Dec 26, 2007 9:29 AM, Jan Heine <hei...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> At 8:48 AM +0000 12/26/07, randon group wrote:

> >The hub flange had failed. A huge crack had propagated into a
> >complete break, and in fact the spoke elbow was tearing the broken
> >piece of metal away from the hub body as I rode. This is a DT Swiss
> >Hugi hub, 32H, laced to Velocity Deep V with DT double butted spokes,
> >in case you were wondering.
>

> Could it be that the spoke tension was too high? In more than 100,000
> miles of riding, I had exactly two hub flange failures. Both were
> explainable as flukes. The first was on a radially laced front wheel.
> (The Campy Chorus hub was not recommended for this, but this was the
> first wheel I ever built, and I thought I was smart by figuring that
> there was no need to cross spokes on the front wheel...) The wheel
> lasted 8 years and three rims, then the flanges cracked. The second
> was a late 1980s Campagnolo C-Record high-flange hub, which was prone
> to cracking because there was insufficient material... It lasted all
> of 2000 miles. Campagnolo replaced the hub with one that had
> beefed-up flanges.
>
> While I may weigh less than some riders, I often ride tandems and
> loaded touring bikes, and I commonly pull trailers weighing 120 lbs.
> or more up the hill. (Books and magazines are heavy!) Many of my
> bikes use older hubs that have relatively thin flanges. (I use

> washers under the heads of modern spokes that are intended for
> thicker hub flanges.)
>

> I know that the spoke tension should not be too low, because low
> spoke tension causes the spokes to work more as the wheel revolves
> and leads to premature failure. However, with modern deep-dish rims,
> you may be able to increase the spoke tension so much that the hub
> flanges or even the rims themselves crack. (With old-style
> box-section rims, the rim buckled long before that.) Like so many
> things, spoke tension should be neither too low nor too high, but
> "just right."
>
> Several readers have reported cracked rims around the eyelets on rims
> that other readers (and ourselves) have used for many miles with no
> problems. Again, without seeing the wheels, it's hard to tell...
> (Mavic had a generation of anodized rims that were prone to cracking,
> but these rims are not them.)
>
> Getting a hub with more spoke holes may not be the solution for you,
> as there will be less metal between the holes.
>
> (Of course, it is well possible that there is some flaw with the DT
> Hugi hub - as somebody pointed out, many of these expensive parts
> aren't as well-designed and well-made as one would like, and your PBP
> experience with the internals failing did not bode too well.)
>
> Jan Heine
> Editor
> Bicycle Quarterly
> 140 Lakeside Ave #C
> Seattle WA 98122
> www.bikequarterly.com

[Beezodog]

Sounds as if this one is the "penultimate". The next one you build
(presumably with the best of everything on it will be the "ultimate".

[M-SADLER]

I think there is a current tendency to tension wheels too highly.
There were some horrific crashes on this year's (2007) Tour of Flanders in
Belgium when the riders were descending a cobbled hill. A famous ex
professional suggested one of the causes was deep rims combined with high
spoke tension which resulted in a very rigid wheel which did not absorb any
of the shocks and bumps and just "bounced" on the cobbles and consequently
the riders lost control.
So when you do build up your new wheel it might be a good idea to use less
tension on the spokes.

M-SA...@sky.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Bronson

That is entirely possible. The builder made a comment to me along the
lines of "those velocity like to be cranked down" so it's quite
possible the spoke tension was way too high.
>

> Could it be that the spoke tension was too high?

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.9/1197 - Release Date: 25/12/2007
20:04

[russell...@yahoo.com]

On Dec 27, 3:15 am, "M-SADLER" <m-sad...@sky.com> wrote:
> I think there is a current tendency to tension wheels too highly.
> There were some horrific crashes on this year's (2007) Tour of Flanders in
> Belgium when the riders were descending a cobbled hill.   A famous ex
> professional suggested one of the causes was deep rims combined with high
> spoke tension which resulted in a very rigid wheel which did not absorb any
> of the shocks and bumps and just "bounced" on the cobbles and consequently
> the riders lost control.

Any "bounce" on the cobbles and inability to absorb shocks and bumps
is due to running the tires at too high a pressure. Not running the
spokes at too high a tension.

> So when you do build up your new wheel it might be a good idea to use less
> tension on the spokes.
>

> M-SAD...@sky.com

>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jim Bronson
>
> That is entirely possible.  The builder made a comment to me along the
> lines of "those velocity like to be cranked down" so it's quite
> possible the spoke tension was way too high.  
>
> > Could it be that the spoke tension was too high?
>
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.9/1197 - Release Date: 25/12/2007

> 20:04- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[BobH]

I guess I wonder if your expectations are too high. You admit that
you are a big heavy strong rider and the hubs lasted 25k+ miles.
Nothing lasts forever. :)

[Jim Bronson]

I have had many rear wheel failures with multiple and varied failure
modes. For example, this is the 3rd rim I've had on this hub and one
that has finally lasted. I'm glad the hub lasted so long but just
frustrated that there is yet another rear wheel problem.

--

[russell...@yahoo.com]

What spoke cross lacing are you using on the wheels where the hub
flange broke? If you mentioned it, I seem to have missed it. And
which side of the rear hub failed, drive side or non-drive side? Is
the crossing the same on both sides or is it X crossed on drive side
and radial on the non-drive side?

[Jim Bronson]

I don't have any wheels that aren't three cross on any of my bikes.
Nothing fancy like different lacing on different sides. And nothing
less than 32 spokes.

The flange failed on the drive side.

At this point I'm ready to let this thread lie, I think just about
everything useful that can be said, has been said. I got a rather
insulting off-list email last night deriding me for not putting all
the data right up front, and asking me why I wasn't using the 1mm
wider Aerohead. Give me a break. Like the Aerohead is going to
handle a 260 lb rider better than a Deep V. It's a fine rim but it's
not for me.

On Dec 28, 2007 8:09 AM, russell...@yahoo.com

<russell...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> What spoke cross lacing are you using on the wheels where the hub
> flange broke? If you mentioned it, I seem to have missed it. And
> which side of the rear hub failed, drive side or non-drive side? Is
> the crossing the same on both sides or is it X crossed on drive side
> and radial on the non-drive side?
>
>

[Harry Spatz]

The advice below assumes that we use too much spoke tension. I would change
the advice to be "use proper tension". Your wheels won't last if built with
too little tension either. For "proper tension" you need to know what
target tension to shoot for and have a way to measure it. If you insist on
using very stiff deep V style rims, you may have to use wider tires with
lower pressure for ride comfort and control. I don't think that less spoke
tension is the answer to increasing control on rough roads. Spoke tension
is dictated by the rims, spokes, and hubs used.

Harry Spatz

[DemostiX]

For the next time those on this list wish to help the large and
lugubrious Mr. Bronson, here's the private mail I sent him, which he
describes below as insulting, and deriding. You be the judge judge.

BTW: I suggested the 1mm wider rim because wheelbuilder Peter Jon
White associates a 3mm wider tire with the wider rim.

On Dec 27, 2007 9:50 PM, DemostiX <travis...@gmail.com> wrote: >
Jim:
> I enjoyed your post. And Happy Christmas. An afternote: I'm
surprised
> you are using the Deep V with a 28 or 20mm tire. The deep V is
either
> a 12 or 13 mm internal width rim. Isn't the Aerohead 1 mm wider?
>
> Please, next time put the necessary data all the way up front. Not
> just the rim. But the hub type and age, spokes, spoke tension, tire
> pressure and your weight.
>
> I'm not just complaining. I read your report because I'm a pleased
new
> owner of Velocity Aerohead and Ahd/OC. In old school soft-polish
> aluminum.
>
> Harry Travis

On Dec 28 2007, 9:43 am, "Jim Bronson" <jim.bron...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't have any wheels that aren't three cross on any of my bikes.
> Nothing fancy like different lacing on different sides. And nothing
> less than 32 spokes.
>
> The flange failed on the drive side.
>
> At this point I'm ready to let this thread lie, I think just about
> everything useful that can be said, has been said. I got a rather
> insulting off-list email last night deriding me for not putting all
> the data right up front, and asking me why I wasn't using the 1mm
> wider Aerohead. Give me a break. Like the Aerohead is going to
> handle a 260 lb rider better than a Deep V. It's a fine rim but it's
> not for me.
>

> On Dec 28, 2007 8:09 AM, russellseat...@yahoo.com

[Jim Bronson]

Interesting. I had to look up the word "lugubrious".

----------------------------------------

lugubrious

Main Entry:
lu·gu·bri·ous
Pronunciation:
\lu̇-ˈgü-brē-əs also -ˈgyü-\
Function:
adjective
Etymology:
Latin lugubris, from lugēre to mourn; akin to Greek lygros mournful
Date:
1585

1: mournful; especially : exaggeratedly or affectedly mournful <dark,
dramatic and lugubrious brooding — V. S. Pritchett>
2: dismal <a lugubrious landscape>

-------------------------------------------------

I don't know. Am I "exaggeratedly or affectedly mournful", or "dismal" or both?

The bottom line is, I took umbrage to your asking me to put the data
up front for your convenience. Maybe I was in a bad mood and overly
dour when I made that last post stating that I was insulted and
derided. I don't exactly remember my frame of mind at the time but
sometimes I do get a bit curmudgeonly.

RANDON RELATED CONTENT:
The rim is at the shop getting re-laced to the Campy Centaur G that I
got at gNashbar for $55. I'll ride that setup until it breaks and
then decide where to go from there.