The man with the hammer (aka bonk)
258 views
Skip to first unread message
William Beck
May 6, 2013, 9:53:23 AM5/6/13
to ran...@googlegroups.com
On Saturday night I found myself lying on the floor of a 7-Eleven feeling like Fizz in this Yehuda Moon cartoon: http://yehudamoon.com/20100508/ and wondering how in the world I could get through the final 40 miles of a 400K. I had followed the advice I give to new randonneurs and the procedure that has worked for me on many long rides: eating about 360 Calories/hour on the bike (cookies and salted peanuts), eating larger meals at controls (sandwiches, potato chips, Coke, candy bars), and avoiding ever going anaerobic. But there I was again, lying on the dirty floor of a convenience store wondering what had happened. The final miles after that weren't as bad as I feared, and I finished, but it got me wondering about the physiology of the bonk. Why can I sometimes do fine and other times crash and burn, even though I'm consuming the same number of calories?
Then it occurred to me that the "kiss of death," or definitive sign that I'm in trouble, is when the food I've been eating on the bike starts to feel like indigestible cardboard in my mouth, especially peanuts (or pretzels). As if there just isn't enough saliva, or the saliva's missing something crucial, to turn the food into something digestible. And once that happens, things always get worse fast. My stomach joins the rebellion and refuses to accept anything but perhaps a slow intake of Coke. The only way I've ever partially recovered was to wait at a control slowly sipping a Coke, until after an hour or so I could eat a little again.
So I wonder, could the root problem really be dehydration? Insufficient or inadequate saliva to handle food in the mouth? Sipping on a Coke for an hour helps? I never really considered dehydration before because I drink frequently from a Camelbak, don't really feel thirsty, and need nature breaks. Also, the ride on Saturday was cool and didn't involve a lot of sweating. But still...
Are there any physiology/medical/coach types out there who might understand what's going on? Why does a calorie intake that works on some long rides fail in others, even with the same level of effort? Could dehydration be the real culprit that explains the difference? What the heck is going on? (I'm hoping that the thread can focus on the mechanism of the bonk and its interaction with other ride variables and not so much on specific foods/mixtures that work for individuals. In the past, I've used Perpetuem and Sustained Energy and found that I was just as likely to bonk on that as the same number of calories per hour of cookies and peanuts.) Thanks for any informed advice on this topic that "hammers" many randonneurs.
Bill
Leslie Tierstein
May 6, 2013, 11:00:47 AM5/6/13
to William Beck, ran...@googlegroups.com
Unrelated to randonneuring or long bicycle rides, I have trouble with an inflammation of my larynx and severe dry mouth. The relationship to bicycling is that: on a long ride, even if I see to be drinking enough (urination is clear and copious, to be blunt), my mouth and throat sometimes get very dry, so that I can feel it when I swallow. For another example, I can finish a long day ride, feel fine & hydrated, but wake up in the middle of the night with a parched throat.
There are several tricks that my voice therapist suggested. In the very short term running your tongue between your lower teeth and your lips stimulates saliva production. Longer term, I have been told to take OTC Guaifenesin (sp? Marketed as Mucinex), to keep my throat moist. This really works. Also sucking on a lozenge helps. If you tuck the lozenge under your tongue it lasts a long time and helps with saliva production. There is also a chewing gum I discovered in Australia, called thirst, which promotes saliva production but (1) I don’t know if it’s available in the US (2) I don’t like to chew gum, and (3) it’s vile.
Leslie
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to randon+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/randon?hl=en.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
William D. Volk
May 6, 2013, 1:01:38 PM5/6/13
to William Beck, randon googlegroups
Well, you're burning more than 360 Calories an hour. The idea, I have been told, is to get your body to draw upon fat reserves by ingesting mainly carbs, and to prevent glycogen depletion (the dreaded bonk) so you can supply the calories you need.
Maybe the composition of what you're eating needs to be modified? I also assume that you're drinking water and taking electrolytes with that as well.
William D. Volk
Jenny
May 7, 2013, 3:36:47 PM5/7/13
to randon
Hi Bill,
Sorry to hear of your bonk experience.
I agree with John Hughes. Is it possible your carb (not calorie)
intake was insufficient? On long sub-lactate-threshold rides, you burn
primarily body fat but you need glucose to do so. As John points out,
the glucose stores are limited and so you must consume them. The
calories you consumed in your event consisted of not just carbs but
also protein and fat, which don’t contribute readily to blood
glucose.
ACSM guidelines suggest 0.3 g carb per lb (or 0.7 g per Kg) body
weight per hour during exercise (50 g carb per hour for 150-lb
cyclist). Other sources show cyclists can utilize 60-90 g carb per
hour from a variety of carbohydrate sources (i.e. juice, Coke,
pretzels) (Jeukendrup 2010).
A few examples (approximations):
Coke 12 oz can = 39 g carb (100% carbs)
PB sandwich = 35 g (contains prot and fat)
1 oz bag chips = 15 g (contains fat)
Snicker Bar = 37 g (contains prot and fat)
1 scoop Perpetuem = 27 g (contains prot and fat)
During exercise, blood flow is maximized in working muscles not your
GI tract, so digestion may be slowed. Plus, fat and protein digest
more slowly than carbs, and solids slower than liquids. That you felt
better after sipping a Coke for 1 hr off of the bike makes sense (it’s
100% carb, a liquid, and you weren't cycling). Perhaps in this
particular event, you had too much prot/fat or too much solid food
which slowed your digestion and absorption of carbs? (i.e. too many
peanuts or pretzels and not enough OJ, Coke, or GU).
Jenny
Jenny Hegmann, MS RD LDN
Sports Dietitian
“The Cyclist’s Food Guide” ©2012
Sorry to hear of your bonk experience.
I agree with John Hughes. Is it possible your carb (not calorie)
intake was insufficient? On long sub-lactate-threshold rides, you burn
primarily body fat but you need glucose to do so. As John points out,
the glucose stores are limited and so you must consume them. The
calories you consumed in your event consisted of not just carbs but
also protein and fat, which don’t contribute readily to blood
glucose.
ACSM guidelines suggest 0.3 g carb per lb (or 0.7 g per Kg) body
weight per hour during exercise (50 g carb per hour for 150-lb
cyclist). Other sources show cyclists can utilize 60-90 g carb per
hour from a variety of carbohydrate sources (i.e. juice, Coke,
pretzels) (Jeukendrup 2010).
A few examples (approximations):
Coke 12 oz can = 39 g carb (100% carbs)
PB sandwich = 35 g (contains prot and fat)
1 oz bag chips = 15 g (contains fat)
Snicker Bar = 37 g (contains prot and fat)
1 scoop Perpetuem = 27 g (contains prot and fat)
During exercise, blood flow is maximized in working muscles not your
GI tract, so digestion may be slowed. Plus, fat and protein digest
more slowly than carbs, and solids slower than liquids. That you felt
better after sipping a Coke for 1 hr off of the bike makes sense (it’s
100% carb, a liquid, and you weren't cycling). Perhaps in this
particular event, you had too much prot/fat or too much solid food
which slowed your digestion and absorption of carbs? (i.e. too many
peanuts or pretzels and not enough OJ, Coke, or GU).
Jenny
Jenny Hegmann, MS RD LDN
Sports Dietitian
“The Cyclist’s Food Guide” ©2012
thirty-six
May 9, 2013, 4:50:34 PM5/9/13
to randon
Wrong foods. Fruits, vegetables and green leaves will supply the
magnesium and potassium, that you need to constantly replenish when
sweating or producing urine. They also supply sugar and water.
You would likely have benefited from extra magnesium to flush out the
proteins you were filling up on with the peanuts. If you overdo the
proteins with high exercise level you'll not just be flat out but
curled in a ball in agony. Legumes are principally for recuperation,
they slow digestion and soak up metabolic waste. Legumes also need
fat, greens or fruit to get them moving through your bowel. I'm not
surprised your stomach would not accept any more.
Identify roadside greens and flowers you can eat, the best may very
well be where you fall. Don't kill yourself iwth commerce, learn to
eat the food that God supplied you with.
Colas are phosphoric acid, not for the athlete whether in training or
event and not with any frequency for man in general. I do confess to
a Bacardi and Coke earlier this week, and very tasty it was, but the
previous was not within the year. This acid will pull more calcium
from your bones to neutralise it. It's tasty but nasty. Without
sufficient fat and magnesium (you've been pissing and sweating it out
along with potassium) your lymph ducts will stagnate and your muscles
will harden. Falling over is better than having a heart attack which
is what may occur if you did the same in extreme heat. The legumes
could have worked if only you could have got them moving. Fat is your
friend when it comes to breaking up a clump of bean paste. Try it
first in a pan. The cola likely helped clumped the peanuts in the
same way that vinegar clots milk. And then there is osteoporosis.
Fats and greens on a daily basis will protect you long term, and don't
go eating acidifying and drinking foods in the preceding days to an
event.
Calories are important and food is even more so.
magnesium and potassium, that you need to constantly replenish when
sweating or producing urine. They also supply sugar and water.
You would likely have benefited from extra magnesium to flush out the
proteins you were filling up on with the peanuts. If you overdo the
proteins with high exercise level you'll not just be flat out but
curled in a ball in agony. Legumes are principally for recuperation,
they slow digestion and soak up metabolic waste. Legumes also need
fat, greens or fruit to get them moving through your bowel. I'm not
surprised your stomach would not accept any more.
Identify roadside greens and flowers you can eat, the best may very
well be where you fall. Don't kill yourself iwth commerce, learn to
eat the food that God supplied you with.
Colas are phosphoric acid, not for the athlete whether in training or
event and not with any frequency for man in general. I do confess to
a Bacardi and Coke earlier this week, and very tasty it was, but the
previous was not within the year. This acid will pull more calcium
from your bones to neutralise it. It's tasty but nasty. Without
sufficient fat and magnesium (you've been pissing and sweating it out
along with potassium) your lymph ducts will stagnate and your muscles
will harden. Falling over is better than having a heart attack which
is what may occur if you did the same in extreme heat. The legumes
could have worked if only you could have got them moving. Fat is your
friend when it comes to breaking up a clump of bean paste. Try it
first in a pan. The cola likely helped clumped the peanuts in the
same way that vinegar clots milk. And then there is osteoporosis.
Fats and greens on a daily basis will protect you long term, and don't
go eating acidifying and drinking foods in the preceding days to an
event.
Calories are important and food is even more so.
David Buzzee
May 9, 2013, 5:06:18 PM5/9/13
to thirty-six, randon
I must have missed the peer-reviewed literature references which fuel the claims by thirty-six. . . . .
db
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to randon+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
thirty-six
May 9, 2013, 5:07:28 PM5/9/13
to randon
On May 6, 4:00 pm, "Leslie Tierstein" <ltierst...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Unrelated to randonneuring or long bicycle rides, I have trouble with an
> inflammation of my larynx and severe dry mouth. The relationship to
> bicycling is that: on a long ride, even if I see to be drinking enough
> (urination is clear and copious, to be blunt), my mouth and throat sometimes
> get very dry, so that I can feel it when I swallow. For another example, I
> can finish a long day ride, feel fine & hydrated, but wake up in the middle
> of the night with a parched throat.
Possibly chronic acidification of body tissue with soft tissue
> inflammation of my larynx and severe dry mouth. The relationship to
> bicycling is that: on a long ride, even if I see to be drinking enough
> (urination is clear and copious, to be blunt), my mouth and throat sometimes
> get very dry, so that I can feel it when I swallow. For another example, I
> can finish a long day ride, feel fine & hydrated, but wake up in the middle
> of the night with a parched throat.
calcification. May be a diagnosis of osteopaenia could, not far off,
be made. Meat wheat, soy, milk, sugar, coffee, black tea, beer,
whisky and cola are all contributors to acidification. You may wish
to stop all these, and most of the commercial processed crap which
negatively effects body chemistry. What you should drink, water, you
should check that it has an adequate pH level. Look for 7.8 or
more.
>
> There are several tricks that my voice therapist suggested. In the very
Tricks and props are for the magic circle.
> There are several tricks that my voice therapist suggested. In the very
> short term running your tongue between your lower teeth and your lips
> stimulates saliva production. Longer term, I have been told to take OTC
> Guaifenesin (sp? Marketed as Mucinex), to keep my throat moist. This
> really works. Also sucking on a lozenge helps. If you tuck the lozenge under
> your tongue it lasts a long time and helps with saliva production. There is
> also a chewing gum I discovered in Australia, called thirst, which promotes
> saliva production but (1) I don't know if it's available in the US (2) I
> don't like to chew gum, and (3) it's vile.
Susan Otcenas
May 9, 2013, 5:13:10 PM5/9/13
to randon
>>Identify roadside greens and flowers you can eat, the best may very
well be where you fall.
Funniest thing on the Interwebs all day!
well be where you fall.
Susan
David Buzzee
May 9, 2013, 5:35:07 PM5/9/13
to thirty-six, randon
Not sure just where you will find unadulterated water with a slightly alkaline pH. Water in equilibrium with the carbon dioxide in air will always have a slightly acidic (i.e., lower than 7.0) pH.
> email to randon+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/randon?hl=en.
> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to randon+unsub...@googlegroups.com.
thirty-six
May 13, 2013, 7:55:14 PM5/13/13
to randon
thought I'd done this earlier
Here:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&cid=6655437248839341507&q=Shepley+Spring+Ltd&iwloc=A&gl=GB&hl=en
On May 9, 10:35 pm, David Buzzee <d_buz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not sure just where you will find unadulterated water with a slightly alkaline pH. Water in equilibrium with the carbon dioxide in air will always have a slightly acidic (i.e., lower than 7.0) pH.
>
> ________________________________
> From: thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk>
> > email to randon+un...@googlegroups.com.
Here:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&cid=6655437248839341507&q=Shepley+Spring+Ltd&iwloc=A&gl=GB&hl=en
On May 9, 10:35 pm, David Buzzee <d_buz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not sure just where you will find unadulterated water with a slightly alkaline pH. Water in equilibrium with the carbon dioxide in air will always have a slightly acidic (i.e., lower than 7.0) pH.
>
> From: thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk>
> > To post to this group, send email to ran...@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/randon?hl=en.
> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to randon+un...@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/randon?hl=en.
> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "randon" group.
randonnerd
May 14, 2013, 1:18:42 AM5/14/13
to thirty-six, randon
David - only a slight detour off of this years' LEL route.
On Monday, May 13, 2013, thirty-six wrote:
Although not "natural", if required en route, I would anticipate you could get a local pub to make one up for you. An alternative would be to get the carbon dioxide infused water pre-mixed with a little quinine (aids in digestion of the local shrubbery and anecdotally has been demonstrated to helps ward off muscle spasms/cramps.). I prefer to add a little monohydroxyethane with extract from juniper berries and lime juice...makes the ride go faster on a warm summer afternoon.
Willie
On Monday, May 13, 2013, thirty-six wrote:
thought I'd done this earlier
Here:
thirty-six
May 14, 2013, 8:51:34 PM5/14/13
to randon
London Hill and Fever Tree?
On May 14, 6:18 am, randonnerd <randonn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David - only a slight detour off of this years' LEL route.
>
> Although not "natural", if required en route, I would anticipate you could
> get a local pub to make one up for you. An alternative would be to get the
> carbon dioxide infused water pre-mixed with a little quinine (aids in
> digestion of the local shrubbery and anecdotally has been demonstrated
> to helps ward off muscle spasms/cramps.). I prefer to add a little
> monohydroxyethane with extract from juniper berries and lime juice...makes
> the ride go faster on a warm summer afternoon.
>
> Willie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 13, 2013, thirty-six wrote:
> > thought I'd done this earlier
>
> > Here:
> > Shepley Spring Ltd<https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ie=UTF8&cid=6655437248839341507&q=Shep...>
>
> > On May 9, 10:35 pm, David Buzzee <d_buz...@yahoo.com <javascript:;>>
On May 14, 6:18 am, randonnerd <randonn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David - only a slight detour off of this years' LEL route.
>
> Although not "natural", if required en route, I would anticipate you could
> get a local pub to make one up for you. An alternative would be to get the
> carbon dioxide infused water pre-mixed with a little quinine (aids in
> digestion of the local shrubbery and anecdotally has been demonstrated
> to helps ward off muscle spasms/cramps.). I prefer to add a little
> monohydroxyethane with extract from juniper berries and lime juice...makes
> the ride go faster on a warm summer afternoon.
>
> Willie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 13, 2013, thirty-six wrote:
> > thought I'd done this earlier
>
> > Here:
>
> > On May 9, 10:35 pm, David Buzzee <d_buz...@yahoo.com <javascript:;>>
> > wrote:
> > > Not sure just where you will find unadulterated water with a slightly
> > alkaline pH. Water in equilibrium with the carbon dioxide in air will
> > always have a slightly acidic (i.e., lower than 7.0) pH.
>
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: thirty-six <thirty-...@live.co.uk <javascript:;>>
> > > Not sure just where you will find unadulterated water with a slightly
> > alkaline pH. Water in equilibrium with the carbon dioxide in air will
> > always have a slightly acidic (i.e., lower than 7.0) pH.
>
> > > ________________________________
randonnerd
May 14, 2013, 10:49:26 PM5/14/13
to thirty-six, randon
More like Gordon's and Schweppes, but then again, what do I know, my preferred recovery drink is a "randonneur's screwdriver" - leftover orange Gatorade from the water bottle mixed with a little vodka.
thirty-six
May 15, 2013, 4:30:21 PM5/15/13
to randon
Have you seen the amount of sodium in that?
More than excessive IMO.
Basic electro/energy use molasses, with orange and/or lime, or date
syrup, with orange and/or lemon or with green tea.
from a jar of Basra Date Syrup (200g dates in 100g syrup)`, in every
100g of date syrup:
292 kcal
71g carb's
12mg sodium
126mg phosphorous
107mg calcium
58mg magnesium
858mg potassium
I find it gorgeous in green tea. There's likely a whole lot of
goodies in there which are not listed on the label.
More than excessive IMO.
Basic electro/energy use molasses, with orange and/or lime, or date
syrup, with orange and/or lemon or with green tea.
from a jar of Basra Date Syrup (200g dates in 100g syrup)`, in every
100g of date syrup:
292 kcal
71g carb's
12mg sodium
126mg phosphorous
107mg calcium
58mg magnesium
858mg potassium
I find it gorgeous in green tea. There's likely a whole lot of
goodies in there which are not listed on the label.
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages