PA ACP 300K - volunteer report
Juan PLC Salazar
Eastern PA ACP 300K brevet. This is because I rode it hours after
completing a flèche with a 40km extension on April 19 and Saturday I
volunteered so that RBA Tom Rosenbauer could experience the ride. None
of it would have been possible without the help and support of my wife
Grazie. She made the post-ride meal: black bean stew with rice and
potato sticks. I didn't ride on Saturday, but I sure ate as if I had.
Report with pictures of the riders at the secret contrôle and finish:
http://www.cycloblogger.info/2009/05/volunteering-at-eastern-pa-acp-300k.html
Juan S.
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| Juan PLC Salazar ____ __o |
| www.cycloblogger.info ____ _`\<,_ |
| 607.253.9327 ____ (_) (_) |
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Tom Rosenbauer
Thanks for the great report -- it's volunteers like you, that make putting
on these events possible!
Since safety is always a primary concern for an RBA, I'd like to provide
some addtional details on Victor's crash.
At the risk of starting another GPS religious war, I'd like to point out
that Victor's crash was partially caused by his GPS beeping to indicate that
he had missed a turn. He was in fact, on course, because the GPS had found
an incorrect route between the waypoints that had been programmed in. This
caused him to make a sudden turn on gravel and he went down. It is not
possible to make this mistake if just using the cuesheet for navigation.
While I know that many riders find these GPS very helpful, this is second
time that an errant GPS alarm has caused a safety hazard on one of my events
.... and these are just the ones that have gotten my attention.
Regards,
-Tom Rosenbauer
Eastern PA RBA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Juan PLC Salazar" <jsalaz...@gmail.com>
I had the unique opportunity to ride AND volunteer at this year's
Eastern PA ACP 300K brevet. ......
.... Report with pictures of the riders at the secret contrôle and finish:
http://www.cycloblogger.info/2009/05/volunteering-at-eastern-pa-acp-300k.html
Juan S.
hughgs
You mean you cannot make a sudden turn on gravel while using a cue sheet?
I think you're placing blame on the wrong entity. Whether one uses a GPS
or a cue sheet to decide if they are on the route or not, the decision to
make a sudden turn on gravel is never a good idea. To blame the use of
a GPS for the wreck seems misplaced.
I never use a GPS and I've been off course more times than is necessary.
And if it wasn't for being a scaredy cat I could quite easily decide to
make a sudden turn on gravel and have an accident.
(302) 530-9335
hug...@duke.edu
Jerry Zornes
breathing and dieing. Everyone who breathes ends up dead. However
breathing isn't a cause of death.
Sent from my mobile device
JZ
Tom Rosenbauer
At the point where the accident occured, it appears to me that the GPS beep
caused a distraction and led to a sudden maneuver that at partially
contributed to a crash. The point where the accident occured was on a
slight downhill around a curve -- the cuesheet has you looking for a stop
sign -- thus, it would be nearly impossible for somebody using just the
cuesheet to even consider making this unsafe manuever.
I'm aware of another incident of a false GPS beep going off while the rider
was in a pack of riders and made a sudden maneuver that nearly took down the
entire pack. I know that the rider in question is normally a very safe
rider -- but perhaps the GPS beep was a distraction that caused a momentary
lapse in safe bike handling.
I don't want to start another GPS war -- I'm just offering my observations
as an event organizer in the hope that participants who come out for my
events are aware of a potential hazard.
Regards,
-Tom Rosenbauer
Eastern PA RBA
----- Original Message -----
From: "hughgs" <hug...@duke.edu>
To: "randon" <ran...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 8:04 AM
Subject: [Randon] Re: PA ACP 300K - volunteer report
Tom,
You mean you cannot make a sudden turn on gravel while using a cue
sheet?......
littlecircles :: mikeb
a small group that had a GPS on board one of the bikes. The beep
beeping was a minor nuisance. It wasn't until they made a wrong turn
and twittered like a flock of scared birds that it was potentially
unsafe. They ended up self correcting, but funny enough they made
another wrong turn and I caught them later in the ride. It didn't
appear that they back tracked to the place they left the route - but
they did have a hellish climb on the way they did chose to rejoin the
route.
GPS autorouting, poor programming, or not studying the cue pre-ride
probably contributed to the error(s).
And it appeared that when they did not have anything beeping away they
weren't the most pack savvy of cyclists, often taking up more than 2-3
bike widths of lane, chatting obliviously as traffic stacked up behind
them, and tending to weave about and not hold a straight line.
So, while I agree that to blame the GPS is misplaced - it is one more
distraction if someone already has poor bike handling skills - esp in
traffic or a mixed group traveling at speed.
I eventually got tired of hopping for and aft of this group and pulled
over to let their annoying behaviors get well ahead of me. I was
buzzed several times with them about 100 yards behind me (when I found
myself in front of them) - I figured I was safer having traffic pass
me solo - then to have an annoying driver shoot around the weavey pack
and then come upon me just up the road. After the first control I
didn't see them again... so it all worked out.
-Mike
Pam Wright
Sure glad my experiences are different than these! I'm a cue sheet gal and though I'm human and screw up, I'm probably 95-98% on target with navigation.
However, LSR is fortunate to have good, smart cyclists who also use GPS's. There's even been times, where instead of switching cue sheets, we'll just ride off of someone's GPS to the next control. It's fun to make fun when the GPS and the cue sheet navigators differ, but so far, I've never experienced those "sudden" turns or falls to make a last minute turn. So far, everyone has their head on and even when a turn IS missed, most holler "slowing or missed turn or something" and we all pass the turn and safely turn around. This happens with GPS and cue sheets.
We even kinda have fun with the beep-beeps and like everything else, it just becomes part of the group and part of the conversations. Sorry to hear about others' GPS issues, but sure glad we're not experiencing that right now in LSR.
Pam Wright --- On Tue, 5/5/09, littlecircles :: mikeb <mike.b...@gmail.com> wrote: |
Greg
> caused a distraction and led to a sudden maneuver that at partially
> contributed to a crash.
sudden maneuver, and so on. Then I would add GPS beeps to the
following list of things that may also lead to sudden maneuvers:
entering an intersection when a green light turns yellow, a dog who
gives chase, drivers who only look left when making a right turn,
potholes that appear out of nowhere, the sound of a semitrailer
bearing down behind me, a tire sidewall that rips open on a downhill,
and riders ahead of me who make sudden stops.
Rather than root out all the possible causes of distractions that
cause sudden maneuvers, it might be more productive to reduce/
eliminate a sudden maneuver as a response to a distraction.
Greg
Eric Keller
I don't think it is fair to say that he made a sudden maneuver. I didn't
have enough time to disagree with him about the turn, but two of us
were drafting behind him and we did not have to make any drastic
corrections. Certainly he started the turn a little late and seemed to be
distracted by his GPS. As soon as he recovered a little, he said that
he didn't think it was the right turn, so that would also lead to distraction.
He probably didn't notice the gravel in the
intersection as a result. In fact, none of us really noticed the gravel
and Victor's skid mark until after the crash. It was wet and the light
wasn't that great.
To me, the role of GPS as a contributing factor in this crash is hard to deny.
It is a distraction, and the temptation to pay attention to it is strong.
I think GPS can be a useful tool, but until Saturday I didn't really
realize that using GPS properly requires as much skill and discipline
as it apparently does. I am still considering getting a GPS, and
I think the lesson I am taking from Saturday is that it will take
considerable practice before I'm comfortable with the device.
It certainly isn't like using a GPS in a car.
To be fair, reading a cue sheet at speed isn't easy either. And doing it in a
group is somewhat perilous. Finally, everyone should recognize that it is far
better to miss a turn and waste energy than to sacrifice safety.
Eric
littlecircles :: mikeb
folks turning down 1 way streets (the wrong way) onto train tracks,
etc. etc.
On May 5, 1:05 pm, Eric Keller <keller...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I witnessed the Victor's crash, and it certainly put a damper on the day.
> I don't think it is fair to say that he made a sudden maneuver. I didn't
> have enough time to disagree with him about the turn, but two of us
> were drafting behind him and we did not have to make any drastic
> corrections. Certainly he started the turn a little late and seemed to be
> distracted by his GPS. As soon as he recovered a little, he said that
> he didn't think it was the right turn, so that would also lead to distraction.
> He probably didn't notice the gravel in the
> intersection as a result. In fact, none of us really noticed the gravel
> and Victor's skid mark until after the crash. It was wet and the light
> wasn't that great.
>
> To me, the role of GPS as a contributing factor in this crash is hard to deny.
> It is a distraction, and the temptation to pay attention to it is strong.
> I think GPS can be a useful tool, but until Saturday I didn't really
> realize that using GPS properly requires as much skill and discipline
> as it apparently does. I am still considering getting a GPS, and
> I think the lesson I am taking from Saturday is that it will take
> considerable practice before I'm comfortable with the device.
> It certainly isn't like using a GPS in a car.
>
> To be fair, reading a cue sheet at speed isn't easy either. And doing it in a
> group is somewhat perilous. Finally, everyone should recognize that it is far
> better to miss a turn and waste energy than to sacrifice safety.
> Eric
>
Jerry Zornes
I've seen no research to suggest that.
Sam Huffman
Mark Wooldridge
Due to the recent construction of a freeway corridor, my son's GPS unit tried to steer us the newly wrong way on an on-ramp, onto an on-ramp that now doesn't exist, and then totally freaked out when we took a new bridge across a river on the previously dead-end service road. For a while it must have thought we were flying.
Inattention in a turn almost led me to crash on the third day of PBP in 2003. I was with a group whose leaders missed a turn arrow. I looked up and saw it at the last minute and simply took the left turn without thinking. I was on the left side of the group, but didn't realize another rider had crept up partly beside me. Fortunately I outweighed him by 75 lbs and he was a fantastic bike handler--I carried him through the left turn with full body contact and we both stayed upright. He did look at me a little more nervously the rest of the ride.
Based on this I would add odd, random placement of turn arrows to the list of potential distractions.
Mark "too observant for my own good" W
Jim Logan
Just to throw gasoline on the flames, I’ll just say that very often what I enjoy most on a brevet are all the little distractions that take my mind off whatever my butt, legs, or other ailing body part is shouting at my brain.
On the semi-serious side, I still owe the list an update on my evaluation of the DeLorme Earthmate PN-40, that I promised after I experienced it on a brevet. I had that experience ironically on the PA 300km. As a teaser, I’ll say that the way I have my Eathmate set up, I found it a bit easier to reconcile between the cue sheet and GPS than I did with my Garmin. Sorry I can’t do more than a teaser, but I am exhausted right now. There are trade-offs, but I may be developing affection for my new little buddy.
Jim Logan
Pittsburgh
From:
ran...@googlegroups.com [mailto:ran...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sam Huffman
Sent: Tuesday, May 05, 2009 20:13
To: Tom Rosenbauer; randon
Subject: [Randon] Re: PA ACP 300K
- volunteer report
I don't use a GPS for route-finding. I do use one for route-tracking, but just haven't bothered to learn how to pre-program any routes.
Jim Logan
Introduction
While I added a flip answer to the safety topic Tom Rosenbauer brought up, I realized [as I was doing some yoga to recover from the PA 300] that I have more than a layman’s understanding of the safety issue that Tom is raising, and that I can easily provide some real world guidance.
First, I’ll point out that I am not an experimental psychologist, and that my observations are not based on explicit reference to experimental results or science derived from them. However, I have led engineering teams that design wearable computers and have such teams reporting to me, and my products compete with products that have screens on them, so I have what you could call perhaps call an educated layperson’s understanding of both distraction and cognitive load when using devices such as phones and GPSs – i.e. what underlies the ongoing discussion of either talking or dialing a phone while driving, for example.
Pithy comparison:
Having said all that, it is not necessarily crazy talk to make the observation that using a GPS while bicycling may be akin to dialing a phone or even writing an email while driving, depending on what you are doing with the GPS (I have to take the 5th amendment as to how I may understand the latter comparison). Perhaps this better frames the risks that Tom is raising, so people understand the risk they may be choosing to take by using a GPS. Are you the type of person that take risks like dialing a phone while driving or texting while driving, or does that give you pause? If you choose to use a GPS (or more importantly learn to use a GPS while bicycling, which has a larger cognitive load), you should be aware of the risks you are taking and mitigate them in your own way.
I’ll note that if you happen to say ride on a busy road at night at odd hours, that by itself puts you in a special class of risk taker, but you may be more aware of that risk than the one Tom warned us of. Hopefully I have given you a real world analogy you can understand.
If parties are interested in this topic, I suggest they do search for the underlying research that drives discussions about changing laws about cell phone use in cars. Explicitly, and I am not kidding here, I choose to have no deeper knowledge in this area related to bicycling and GPS than I have. This is a hobby, and I prefer not to have professional judgment in this area.
Jim Logan
Ken Shoemaker
Current computer is a Ciclosport Ciclomaster 436M. I'm pretty happy
with that one but I'm sure technology has moved on since I bought it in
2003.
I'd like the same functions (speed, time, ride time, elapsed time,
altitude, cadence). It should be easy to switch between miles and km.
It should work through whatever interference the Schmidt hub generates.
I'd also like heart rate and PC connection with 90 hour (or so)
storage time so I can put a full 1200k in it and download the ride.
I've actually managed to fit PBP into the Ciclosport but it is a pretty
tight fit at my pace. Battery life should also be at least 90 hours!
Finally, it shouldn't be so distracting as to cause me to crash.
I'm sure there are lots of opinions out there.....
Ken
btw, the new bike is a Ritchey Breakaway Cross Titanium, so the new
computer needs to go with the Delorean-style paint job :-)
jake Kassen
> At the point where the accident occured, it appears to me that the GPS beep
> caused a distraction and led to a sudden maneuver that at partially
> contributed to a crash. The point where the accident occured was on a
> slight downhill around a curve -- the cuesheet has you looking for a stop
> sign -- thus, it would be nearly impossible for somebody using just the
> cuesheet to even consider making this unsafe manuever.
>
I can't even begin to think of all the nasty potholes I've ridden into
because I was preoccupied by looking at a cue sheet.
Jake
hughgs
> Pithy comparison:
> Having said all that, it is not necessarily crazy talk to make the
> observation that using a GPS while bicycling may be akin to dialing a phone
> or even writing an email while driving, depending on what you are doing
> with the GPS (I have to take the 5th amendment as to how I may understand
> the latter comparison). Perhaps this better frames the risks that Tom is
> raising, so people understand the risk they may be choosing to take by using
> a GPS. Are you the type of person that take risks like dialing a phone
> while driving or texting while driving, or does that give you pause? If
> you choose to use a GPS (or more importantly learn to use a GPS while
> bicycling, which has a larger cognitive load), you should be aware of the
> risks you are taking and mitigate them in your own way.
I would just like to comment that it is also true that "it is not
necessarily crazy talk to make the observation that" reading a cue sheet
while riding may be akin to reading a letter while driving. In both cases
I think we would all agree that bringing a GPS or a letter with you, being
distracted by it by not paying attention to the road and then blaming the
letter or the GPS is misplacing the cause of the accident. In both cases
the operator is responsible.
Bill Phillips
if I did find a new way to DNF (running late because of a lack of
training and an issue with my front derailluer cable, I had a flat.
After fixing the flat and riding about three miles to control #3, I
had lunch, then discovered that I had left my helmet where I stopped
to fix the flat.). I will definitely be back to ride with them again.
Charles Coldwell
>
> Subject says it all. Looking for the ideal Rando bike computer.
I like this one
http://www.cateye.com/en/product_detail/281
It has a backlight! Great for reading at night.
Chip
--
Charles M. Coldwell, W1CMC
"Turn on, log in, tune out"
Somerville, Massachusetts, New England
The Wolff Den
Chip, which one is better, the sexy "black" one or the faster "racing strip" model?
MW / KJ4LFY
Jacksonville, Fla / Team Diurnal
PBP - 2007, 2003
Cascade - 2005
BMB - 2000, 2002
If you don't wish you were somewhere else at least once, it's not an adventure
Jerry Zornes
group that espouses independence and toughness. An inordinate amount
of time is spent worrying about how someone else might do things.. If
a GPS "causes" you to crash where's the ownership in that statement?
Charles Coldwell
>
>
> Chip, which one is better, the sexy "black" one or the faster "racing strip" model?
Clearly, faster is better.
> MW / KJ4LFY
73 de W1CMC SK
Susan France
Susan.
(Sam's RBA
...who simply points riders to the playground of randonneuring and
does not take responsibility for their personal decisions!)
Lynne Fitz
http://www.sigmasport.com/us/produkte/bikecomputer/rox_wireless/rox_90/?flash=1
I just reviewed it for Road Bike Rider (www.roadbikerider.com) if
you'd like to know the warts.
Cheers,
Lynne "no racing stripes, but it does have cadence and a PC interface
AND an HRM" F
Peter Mathews
had two of these until my HRM got drowned, at which point I upgraded to a
Polar CS200 (wireless, cadence, HRM, laps, splits, Uncle Tom Cobbly and
all). The Polar is good but wireless is on occasions sensitive to
external interference.
On brevets two units is a luxury for navigation. In complex or
geographically challenges situations I use a combination of lap distances
on the Polar or resetting the Echo to track distance from the last
significant feature.
Who needs a GPS!?
Peter
___________________________________________
Peter Mathews
Library Planning Executive
Office of the University Librarian
Monash University Library
MONASH UNIVERSITY VIC 3800
Ph : (03) 9905 2192
Bike : 043 999 2130
Fax : (03) 9905 2610
email : peter....@lib.monash.edu.au
Lizardbiker
Grazie for your most welcome help with this fantastic ride. The Black
bean and rice was fantastic and my wife would love to see the recipe
after my glowing praise of the post ride meal. Thank you Tom for
coordinating another fantastic ride. Victor, I hope you're feeling
better (as well as your bike) and I'm looking foward to seeing you and
Kate back on the next ride. Whether it was loose gravel, or a beeping
gps or whatever, I'm glad that you made it through with minor injuries
- we all have close calls or accidents that could have prevented
somehow or other. Is it worth a huge debate or just be thankful nobody
was seriously hurt? I've seen accidents caused by people distracted by
beautiful scenery - should we stop riding in scenic places? I've seen
people total their bikes at night hitting a deer - should we ban night
riding or blame a deer overpopulation? Stuff happens - just because it
happens doesn't mean it should be a launching point for attacking the
use of a piece of equipment. That's just silly. Let's all just go out
and enjoy a ride, however you enjoy it, without criticizing how
someone else enjoys it.
On May 6, 7:01 pm, Lynne Fitz <fitzb...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Or, if you want to go over the top on bike computers, try this one:http://www.sigmasport.com/us/produkte/bikecomputer/rox_wireless/rox_9...
> I just reviewed it for Road Bike Rider (www.roadbikerider.com) if
> you'd like to know the warts.
>
> Cheers,
> Lynne "no racing stripes, but it does have cadence and a PC interface
> AND an HRM" F
>
> On May 6, 6:48 am, Charles Coldwell <coldw...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Wed, May 6, 2009 at 12:06 AM, Ken Shoemaker <k...@ieee.org> wrote:
>
> > > Subject says it all. Looking for the ideal Rando bike computer.
>
> > I like this one
>
> >http://www.cateye.com/en/product_detail/281
>
> > It has a backlight! Great for reading at night.
>
> > Chip
>
> > --
> > Charles M. Coldwell, W1CMC
> > "Turn on, log in, tune out"
>
> - Show quoted text -