Raise3D N2 the good, the BAD

[TobyCWood]

So after a couple of months with the Raise3D N2 there are things others who are considering buying this machine should know BEFORE they buy.

The Good:

VERY Low price for the build area

Excellent Z height controlling mechanism

Excellent front panel UI with power outage backup

VERY good slicer software accessible via LAN

VERY modifiable design for the extruder

Great breakout board on the extruder

All metal filament path for the extruder

The BAD:

Support is overseas via their online forum. No US or European resellers, support or parts supply.

V1 of the extruder is VERY unreliable with nonRaise3D filament, although I have seen the problems it has with their supplied Raise3D filament as well. V2 is an upgrade they charge you for... This totally STINKS just like Makerbot and their "Smart" extruder.

The used a fixed distance for the fluted bearing to a knifed gear in their feeder. They also used what looks like a custom Teflon tube feeding into the cool zone of the extruder... both of which require VERY tight tolerances on the filament.

The build plate is factory leveled. The fixed build plate will inevitably end up with an unleveled bed which cannot be adjusted without modifications.

Unprotected leads under the bed on the heater can short out from use of clips to hold the plate. They came up with nylon tipped lock bolts to overcome a design defect which inevitably with short out the bed and changed their heater design for later production runs, but the whole approach is pretty bad when they could VERY easily had simply made the bed user levelable. Yet they refused to for reasons that at least to me sound more like hubris then logic.

So if you are OK with having to modify a printer right out of the box then this printer is an acceptable buy with the caveat that YOU will have to fix THEIR mistakes. Otherwise we recommend buyers to stay away for now.

[Werner Zettlinger]

Ripping on someone or something ok, but at least TRY to be accurate.

V1 is not an issue for any new buyers, all new machines ship standard with a V2 extruder, they have a depot for parts and pickup of printers in the US, maybe not fully stocked yet but they are working on it.
People that bought the first run of the machines will want to upgrade to a V2 extruder and yes with the huge discounts we got a small fee for it is fair.
(The V1 is working with a lot of filaments but the V2 will perform much better and print faster)

In europe they work together for import with a swedish store to import and ship. I assume they might use it for spare parts too.

The heatbed has been remodeled and new machines will have a different layout to prevent shorts from screws or clips

Their support is done through forum and email yes but then again a lot of western companies are doing the same. Their reaction speed and willingness to help is outstanding though.

tbh not impressed with your 'reviews' the kickstarter model is not what people will be ordering now not will they have to pay extra for a v2 extruder.

Raise3D seems to be working hard on delivering the best machine they can get and yes it will change and improve over the next years. It is a very open system to adapt.

All i keep reading is how they didnt listen to you, didnt do as you said... so start your own 3d printer Company and show us how much better YOU can deliver and for what price

I have not seen a single 3d printer yet without some flaws, problems or steep learning curve to get it to print half decent, especially not a first run kickstarter one, so i guess you do not advice ANYONE to buy ANY printer ?

[TobyCWood]

I believe I WAS accurate!

This machine is priced very low and as such people may buy without prior understanding of the shortcomings. Forum posts are not fully stating the complete user experience. 
The machine will need modifications for quite awhile to come and as such we do not recommend buying it to those who do not want to have to modify it to get it to work reliably. As I stated, if you are OK with doing mods then it is acceptable. Obviously Werner fits that. Others will not.

BTW... V2 is just in production and no one has it yet. We have no verification as to whether or not it actually fixes the issues. Only their word on it. They also said in the KS page that the V1 would be reliable, yet it wasn't.

Also, they have stated clearly that there will not be resellers. A better argument against my statement about resellers and parts is the parts should be locatable beyond Raise3D support. They are... but the user who wants the parts will need to locate them or wait for shipment from Shanghai.

The kickstarter model was "fully tested" and not sold as a preproduction to those on the KS. In the KS page it is explicitly stated as such. Yet it was not fully tested. Edward states in the video that they used KS to kickoff the marketing and not for the typical kickoff for development. So I guess this was not true? Maybe partially true?

I do not agree at all with your description of their "reaction speed"> They are fast on the things I gave them good ratings on. In particular their front panel software and their slicer SW. They are quite slow when it comes to things that are HW related like the bed and the extruder. It took them more then 6 weeks too fully show how to "level" their bed. Their "fix" for the concave bolts that could chew through the fish paper "insulators" that short out the bed is not IMO at all adequate. The nylon tips will soften over time since they are touching the underside of the heater and the bed will no longer be level. But I'm sure some will still be in love with it regardless as they struggle with their oh so simple leveling procedure. True, newer production models will have a different heater with different locking bolts and soon they will have a tray to protect the bottom of the heater... again... more proof one should not buy now.

There are other points i have not mentioned. The rails in the gantry sag. Too thin for their length. Their design of the downward fan has to be modified out of the box to prevent PLA from upward curling for thin bridging.... However... The extruder cooling fans stay on all the time and to fix that you have to not use the breakout connector for the gcode controllable downward fan that you have to add. BAD design choice!. You will find there are also mods already put out there to chuck the fixed distance feeder in the extruder for a sprung idler arm. Like I stated... it will need modifications.

There are a number of REALLY GREAT things in this machine. If and when the BAD are resolved this machine will be a definite buy, but IMO NOT NOW.

If the price and the features are making you salivate IMO you should WAIT.

OTOH if you believe Werner's retort go ahead and order. BTW... Do not forget to add shipping from Shanghai to your cost estimate!

[Trhuster]

I can only comment on the reseller thing. I asked 3DPrima about it when i picked up my printer at their warehouse and he stated that they will be a Raise3D reseller here in Sweden. 

[TobyCWood]

I cannot find the quote... it may have been in an email. When I asked about why so low a price Derek or John stated one of their reasons was to pass on savings from a number of things... one of which was no resellers. IMO they under price it for the same reason so many other producers from this country underprice their products... to buy up marketshare.

You may recall Toybuilderlab in Pasadena was going to be a reseller and rep in the US for them. That will not be happening.

I... like so many others... REALLY wanted to LOVE this machine... but unlike so many others I have a larger then usual sample of 3D Printers that I use for my service as well as for coverage on the podcast. As such I see the machine in context which is probably different from those who have also already bought. Also, unlike others I do not look at a machine for how easily I can mod it to meet my needs. While I can do that, I also have to focus on getting work done as I believe the majority of potential 3D Printer buyers do. From what we see in all the marketing data reported by pundits only a minority in the market are OK with having to mod a machine right out of the box. 

There are other criticisms I have of the machine. As an advanced user there are a lot of times i need realtime control. Their front panel UI which is really slick and easy to use means I do not have access to the Marlin controls (I assume they are using Marlin since I cannot see the controller board FW).

Then there's the video camera which is not an integrated camera as they stated in the KS campaign. It is simply a separate IP webcam. They had plenty of time to omit it if they knew they could not deliver it. Yet another thing which looks like over the top sales pitches but not real. Then there's the stepper motor drivers. Note how quiet the machine is?? Better keep you hand FAR away from the moving extruder! It WILL miss steps at the slightest of bumps!

Will they "Raise the standard"? IMO they have not as of yet. The question is will they change their design per the community who bought in to their marketing pitch mods, fixes and finds issues. Note, the issues in the F100 went unaddressed as far as we know and it seems they are no longer selling it. Past behaviors are always the best indicator of the future.

[Richard Grenfell]

I was thinking about getting in on the kickstarter but to be honest the savings offered in my mind didn't / couldn't make up for the improvements that would come after the first or even the second batch of printers were out in the field.

Although I have no where near the knowledge of others here about 3D printing I have yet to see a first generation product that doesn't improve over time regardless of the industry or technology..

$0.02

[TobyCWood]

Correct decision.

[Trhuster]

Imakr first Raise3D reseller. https://www.imakr.com/en/fdm/694-raise-3d-n2.html

[TobyCWood]

Yeah, I saw that too. I hope it works out for them. At the price point R3D has anyone in the mkt will look at it VERY seriously. I have someone local coming by to check it out here who wants to buy an N2+. Will I talk him out of it? No. I know this guy can mod it easy. If you can MOD it at this price with the V2 extruder... I can see it as a buy. But ONLY for someone who KNOWS they will have to MOD it.

[Derek@Raise3D]

@Andy, the firmware source has already released for a long time. https://github.com/Raise3D/Marlin-Raise3D-N-Series

 It's basically a Marlin firmware with very little modifications on communication part. Marlin doesn't support a prioritized serial command queue. 

Actually, we have left solution for this kind of situation. The motion board has native port for reprap discount full graphic controller, you can buy one then you can get realtime control.

We didn't state we have an integrated camera is KS. Actually we have answered the question in KS comment to clarify it's an IP camera far before our shipping.

For the motor drivers, it's depends on everyone's own opinion. You can swap to a4988 if you can accept the noise. We are currently developing a 32bit version controller board to find a balance between performance and noise.

 

在 2016年4月3日星期日 UTC+8上午1:30:55，TobyCWood写道：

[TobyCWood]

Thanks Derek. Good info! This is great for those who buy the machine and are into mod'ing it.

[Jiang Yu]

We have improved the printers in a lot of aspects comparing to the first batch KS printers.

You can check all the key latest updates over here. Most of the issues mentioned above are resolved now.

https://www.raise3d.com/pages/important-updates-on-raise3d-n-series-printer

Our N2 Plus is in Make Magazine 2017 3D Printer Guide and gets 'Best-Overall' award.

http://makezine.com/product-review/n2-plus/ 

Regarding local tech support, our US office is in Santa Clara. Please feel free to contact for any questions you have.

Telephone: + 1 - 888 - 963 - 9028
Working Hours: 10 AM - 4 PM (PT) 
E-mail: inq...@raise3d.com
Address: 2398 Walsh Ave, Santa Clara, CA 95051, USA

We have a lot of information on our website.

Please visit www.raise3d.com for more details.

[TobyCWood]

Ok... so the build plate can be leveled now?
Ringing issues fixed?

[Abraka Dabra]

Nope!! as for JAN 2017.
Still so tightly screwed and so bended that you could eat/drink a soup on the heat bed!!
Total crap!!

[Abraka Dabra]

Check also what this dud has to say on the rise3d forum.
http://help.raise3d.com/support/discussions/topics/9000026450
...he'll get kicked off anyway, b'cause  raise3d doesn't like critics
the dropbox in any case:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sbwi0dr8txie4wh/AAC4adiiRBzHB0cwekepVZbxa?dl=0

Cheers,
Abra

[Raise3D com]

This is John from Raise3D and there are a few clarifications I would like to address to people's attention.

I will only state some facts that may or may not be chose to ignore in the previous post and leave the judgement to you.

1. The printer this customer received was damaged during shipping. Improper shipping method is a known cause for machine defects.

2. The printer is purchased through a local reseller.

3. The reseller accepted the return and refunded this customer already.

In Raise3D, we welcome criticism and we are responsible and our reseller is responsible as well.

From this case, at least one thing you know BEFORE you buy is that if you do get a damaged printer, you can always return it and get refund.

在 2017年1月20日星期五 UTC-8上午7:09:10，Abraka Dabra写道：

[Raise3D com]

Yes, you can find leveling instruction on our web page under 'wiki'.

We have redesigned the heat bed and included insulation board so there is no rick when leveling the bed.

Ringing is better but it is hard to eliminate especially when you try to print at higher speed.

在 2016年12月3日星期六 UTC-8下午4:31:43，TobyCWood写道：

[JohnSays]

TobyCWood is right about the fact that there were problems with the early N2s. There are still problems with the latest N2s as well. I got mine in August of 2016 and by then the build plate insulation had been fixed. This is my first 3D printer, but I'm no stranger to modding equipment. I swapped in the BondTech extruder, did TobyCWoods mod to level the build plate, added a second row of LEDs to illuminate the bed better, and made some different sized spool holders. I don't use the camera or wifi or network. Just the USB port to load prints. I needed a printer with large build volume, open source and open hardware I consider to be important, the ability to quickly fix a problem like a nozzle clog or quickly swap out nozzle sizes, and needed an enclosed build volume. I also wanted a removable build plate for production printing. I keep a drawer of spare parts that I ordered from and got from the California warehouse. My business is really picking up so I ordered another N2 a few days ago and it will be here from the same warehouse this next Friday. I also ordered another Bondtech extruder and the hardware to make an adjustable build plate. I considered that part of the cost of the new printer. Yeah, I wish Raise3D would get it's act together on that, but it's not a show stopper.

Before I ordered my second N2 I really looked around to see what competes with the N2 and I could not find any machine that met all my criteria. The Pursa Original came closest but no enclosure or removable build plate. Plus I have a large investment in the N2 parts and the learning curve is done at this point. The point is, the printer really does a good job printing and I am making production parts with it. I considered the Type A Pro even at 5 grand, but no enclosed build area and it wasn't clear to me if I could swap nozzle sizes -- oh yeah, and no second extruder. Look at the Ultimaker print head for example. I don't think you can even change a nozzle without replacing the entire assembly. So, okay, the Raise3D needs a few tweaks that cost very little considering the low cost of the printer itself. The build plate is not garbage at all as an earlier poster states. In fact I have run my dial indicator on it and it is flat flat flat even at 80C. And talk about compatibility, I'm running E3D Makerbot nozzles. I don't even have to buy Raise3D nozzles.It comes with BuildTak -- oops -- but I just went to the glass store and got some window glass and run Aquanet, Kapton, Elmers or whatever I want. Just trying PEI today. Open hardware = flexibility.

And TobyCWood, what gets me a little is that you talk so much on your show about the mods and changes you have made to so much of your equipment. Your Makerbots have had the "wrench" put to them countless times it would seem. Right? Where this market is right now is in a learn and grow or don't learn and fail mode, but not a "we know all about how to do this and can't make a mistake" mode. There are zero perfect printers out there right now unless you are doing little craft type thingiverse reprints or have a small fortune to spend. Name one perfect printer for production that you can buy without mods that will run any filament you want right out of the box and is big enough to print multiple parts (10" x 10" or bigger. and do it pretty much 24/7. You sell a good printer - the Craftbot(?) I think, right? But it doesn't have an all metal hot end. So super deal breaker for me. I'd rather replace the entire extruder than not have an all metal hot end. But someone else might be perfectly happy with the printer and the heck with the Teflon tubing.

So in the final analysis you are right in my opinion. If one does not want to make mods the N2 is not the right printer. But for myself, I'll probably buy two more after this because they do work that good and I don't seem to have a ringing problem. Btw, I suggest you wipe all the grease off your carriage and travel rods (if you haven't already) and the head will run much more freely. The grease really puts a strain on the steppers. With no grease, the steppers don't miss a beat.  Also, the Bondtech weighs much less than the Raise3D extruder and so that and the no-grease might be why I have no ringing problems. I print at 60mm/sec with ABS and 40 with PETG. 

I wrote this because I thought you were a little too hard on Raise3D and I wanted to balance the viewpoint a little. I didn't write it because I thought you were wrong.  Also I think the Raise3D printers are most likely to be bought by people who won't mind a few mods. I mean that is one heck of a big first printer to buy right out of the gate isn't it? Also, Raise3D is very open and anyone can get on the forums and see what people are saying about their printers. So, caveat emptor eh? You can know before you buy because Rasie3D does not hide anything. The good and the bad are all on their forums.

Lastly, I needed some help with a problem that originated due to some screws not being correctly installed. I got a call from Raise3D tech support and they walked me through the entire fix in real time. Excellent support.

Love your podcast btw. I think it is the very best out there.

[Jetguy]

Important notice to early Kickstarter units. I know that my earlybird N2, has the IEC power entry panel backside exposed. Raise 3D has started shipping new units with a printed over. I highly suggest everyone check on early units for this important safety feature. As hipped earlybird N2 with exposed IEC connector and the bus bar link between the power socket and the fuse is actually live AC 120 or 240V depending on country.

Here is the printed cover being shipped on newer units.

To install it, you need to replace the current two screws to be about M4*16, a little longer than current two.

[Abraka Dabra]

So John let me go a step further. To clarify a bit more as the guy who posted his problems had enough of even talking to the Rise3D. I t happens that we both live in the same country (just some 120km away). He bought a printer through the local reseller and I bought mine through my friend in USA. So I spent a day talking with a man and he shown me all the crap he had to go through.
1.) You are a liar! The printer was not damaged during shipment. It was just plain garbage. Assembled by some incompetent people. I compare it to mine and mine didn't have those crappie mistakes.
2.) Yes local reseller. But what does that mean? That you Rise3D are selling crap to local resellers and the good stuff you're selling by yourself????
3.) The poor chap had lost projects worth 15000USD because he couldn't finish the job in time. He even show me the contract. So what he did was; HE DIDN'T RETURN
the crappy printer but he completely rework it... And ordered two new ones from the other vendor.

Bottom line this printer still is as the 90% of all FFF printers just bigger. Meaning it's a constant battling with the extruders, filaments, settings, bad levelling, adhesion, ozzing,
one extruder knocking the part off the bed, no real two head extrusion, etc, etc, etc.
So crap as the rest of 90% of all printers. Sadly enough your whole paradigm was to "rise the standard" The only thing you did was, and I give you that, rise the building volume, but all the rest is crap. Specially the dual extruders... this are laughable.

As I bought the N2 Plus myself, thankfully used so a bit cheaper, I'm also planing to totally change the whole setup as is flawed by design.

[Andy Cohen]

Wow!

I know I've complained a bit, but I LOVE my N2! When I have a project that can be effected by ringing I slow acceleration down and i get good results(a gcode command in the start script)... or I print on a CoreXY machine.

My complaints were not on the machine, but on some of the judgment and design decisions the team at Raise3D made. I did this to HELP THEM IMPROVE. Their decision to ignore these inputs is their problem, but the printer works great for me after I modded the build plate. Seriously, factory leveled build plates do not work in the long run.