Raise3D is ignoring those with problems in the 1st batch

[TobyCWood]

So after the first batch of N2s were delivered it was quickly discovered that they had installed some concave tipped bolts incorrectly under the bed of no one knows how many N2s that were shipped. The sharp edges of the tips of these bolts can and do cut upwards into a poorly insulated bottom heated build plate. The build plate is factory leveled with a series of these locking upward bolts so operator removal could become a serious problem. Raise3D refuses to release instructions on how to level this bed so the first batch of buyers can fix their mistake. Rather then deal with the problem they say on their forum they will post the instructions real soon... but they also say not to attempt to remove the bed to replace the bolts. They say nothing else no matter how much I post on their forum. So far 2 machines have shorted out and thanks to Jetguy's FW mods there's a bit of a work around for the damaged parts of their boards. In time with vibration from regular use each machine will eventually short out if Raise3D continues to put off solving the problem.

THIS IS BAD.

If this is how they do biz then i regret buying the N2 and I cannot recommend it to any one.

They need to FIX THIS NOW!

[Derek@Raise3D]

TobyCWood, I was just out for a while. We are not ignore these questions and we are working hard to provide compelete solutions. In a large scale machine, even the industrial machines, they use raft to catch the printed objects. So we followed the same rule. However, not everyone wants raft, so the leveling standard cannot make everyone satisfied. We understand that feeling, so we are doing really hard work to provide a complete and safe solution to everyone. We don't want any temporary solution that may cause problem to users with less experience users who also want to do the adjusting. The whole instruction will be released with the official announcement of V2 hotend. And for the past two weeks, me and my team stayed at factory for day and night. We hope we could make the production and ship them to US asap. Sorry didn't let your guys to know the details as we didn't inform everyone with the progress. It won't take so long time, V2 announcement would be ready by the next week.

在 2016年3月3日星期四 UTC+8下午2:39:00，TobyCWood写道：

[TobyCWood]

Sigh... Derek... I wish I could say I'm sorry... but no. Should I feel bad because you say you guys are "working hard" on the V2? Why? I have V1 and i do not see myself buying another printer. You guys are working hard for the next deliveries not for deliveries already made. 

I get results from V1 and I am ok if V2 has some cost associated with it... That is not the problem.

Lets focus only on the bed design for now... That is my bugaboo NOT the extruder. 

"Print with a raft" That is what MBI says!

Why did Raise3D decide to go this way Vs simply putting conventional leveling bolts in the corners with thumb nuts the way ALL OTHER open source based machines do??? This is a large machine and not what a typical new user would buy. Why are you coupling the entire design with something that only a newbie would like? BIG mistake!

What on Earth is the benefit of this factory leveling idea? I bet it takes the worker on the assembly line a lot of time which is not something you would want. It uses more HW too... nine sets of 3 bolts (assuming they are the right kind of bolts which some are not) so higher cost for HW and higher cost for assembly AND you disempower your users and tell them to use a raft! BIG mistake!

John has posted that the leveling instructions are way too complicated for the users and as such R3D is reluctant to post them. Wasn't this supposed to be an all open source machine? 

Here's a suggestion... Stop "working hard" on designs that are not working. Do not bother trying to fix this BIG mistake with the static bed. Instead switch to an operator leveled bed and distribute bolts, springs and thumb nuts to those who supported Raise3D at the start. Get this BIG mistake in your rear view mirror ASAP!

[TobyCWood]

Let me add to the above...

Will Raise3D actually want all the SEB delivered users to have to tear down the bed and relevel it? I would bet Raise3D does not want that because i have no doubt there are resources only Raise3D has that make it easy to level the bed. Like... Possibly a jig that attaches to the extruder carriage and a script that positions the extruder above the bolt points so the worker can correctly screw the bolts in to the exact spot. Without these resources leveling the bed accurately is probably not possible. So even if Raise3D sends out replacement bolts those of us who supported Raise3d FIRST will not be able to get replacement bolts installed.

You would not have had this problem at all had you simply provided what ADVANCED, PRO users require... a user leveled bed.

[Werner Zettlinger]

Find someone that has patience and please sell him/her your printer.... buy a playdo set and have fun

Raise3D answered you multiple times they need time to setup a fix for the first 2 batches while they work on fixing it for other batches.
That you dont agree with this fine but stop whining about it, you posting on multiple fora shows you havent much to do i guess

Maybe update your Podcast a bit quicker iso whining might take your mind off of things and let Raise3D work out the fix and release it somewhere next week or so

[Derek@Raise3D]

@TobyCWood, we are not put any priority in front of V2 hotend or heatedbed problem. We have two small groups working at the same time on V2 and the heated bed isolation. A lot of tests need to be done before we release them. It takes weeks but not just hours or days. 

If you are in a hurry to level your bed, I suggest you just find some teflon isolation tape or Kapton tape, then you can start to level it. Apply two or three layers of isolation tape under the bed where the set screw sits. And loose every screws related with the heated bed. Start from the central one, then the rest. Move the extruder around and adjust the distance between the print bed and nozzle like other printers, using a namecard or clearance gauage will be okey. In every group use the screw in the middle to adjust the height of the bed, the set screws alongside are used to hold the positions. We usually can achieve the final result with 3rounds of all 9points. And we are not using any 'advanced' resource or tools to level the bed as each of them is different. 

Like you have mentioned, why we don't use a common open source bed leveling design? That's because for such a large bed, the shape of the heated bed will change during it's lifetime. So in our point of view, a powerful static holding system with more points would be the ideal choice for a machine that want to run for years that don't need to level. 

'Raft' is not totally useless or just time wasting, even the large and expensive industrial level machines will also force you to print a raft. That's because raft can increase the printing success ratio. Since we have heard the voice from our backers, we didn't ignore the request and refuse to make a change.We raised the standard of the leveling to make it be suitable for printing with no raft. 50% more time is involved in the leveing. Also we are testing solutions for first 2 batches users. It just maybe takes longer time than you are expecting. The whole Raise3D team are working from 9 to 9, 6 days a week, we share the same anxious feeling like your guys.So we don't want to waste even one second. So please be paitient, as I just metioned earlier, it will soon reach the final reasults. Just give us a couple more days please.

在 2016年3月5日星期六 UTC+8下午1:04:36，TobyCWood写道：

[Geez Us]

Werner - is this they way you handle problems and concerns at R3D? Telling customers they should sell their printer and buy another one? Really?
I didn't receive my N2+ yet, but it seems that I should probably lower my expectations. :-/

~Jens

[Joe Brunson]

I offered to buy it, ordered another one, and a two friends wants to buy them after seeing mine.

[Werner Zettlinger]

i am NOT affiliated with Raise3D at all except for backing their printer. What i type is in my own name only not Raise3D

[Werner Zettlinger]

If he was in the netherlands i would offer to buy it from him

[Geez Us]

Werner, thanks for clarifying that.

[TobyCWood]

Derek, I suggest not pointing to industrial machines as your reasoning behind using a raft. Bad analogy. Industrial machines usually come with service plans, used by a different kind of user and a different market altogether. I think if you really collected data on user requirements you would find most users abhor rafts due to the damage they cause to the object.
There are some who seem to be annoyed with my posting about this issue. Perhaps people such as Werner do not see the longer term issue here. Besides the immediate need to replace bolts which can damage the machine... Derek is correct when he says over time the heights change. The gantry sags in time ( usually months not years) , there is also variation in the plate, the stuff on the plate, there is short term variation due to temperatures, there's also variation due to system changes such as nozzle sizes, filament requirements... Swapping beds... And then there's maintainabilty. Heaters fail. The factory leveled bed flies in the face of all of these. A factory leveled bed will satisfy a relatively narrow range of optimal performance. We've seen this and discussed this before... The machine that was the focus of that discussion was the F100 Ideaprinter. It performs poorly for layer heights larger then .15mm yet below that the output was mediocre. Getting a wider range of performance required major modifications to the extruder and to the bed.
You guys chose your design direction. I do not agree with that design direction and will do as Jetguy did; change it. This is not a startup/crowd funding type of issue.
As such we will take the position with Raise3d as we did with the bonehead design decision Ultimaker made with the combined nozzle hotblock. We will not recommend it until there is a design change. Will that hurt Raise3D? I do not know... My intent is not to hurt Raise3d, but instead to inform listeners of what we feel are serious issues or design deficiencies. My hope is that Raise3D shows it's in the same class as Ultimaker and changes their design. Alternatively, they could choose the path Makerbot selected with the plunger in the extruder of th Rep2... I.e. , put it off for over a year until it hurts sales.
And to Werner... The show will likely be on the feed the first week of April. Talk about impatient!