Ruby certification?

[Joshua Partogi]

Hi ruby experts,

I saw there is a ruby certification ( http://www.ruby-assn.org/en/certification.htm ) which seems to be fairly popular in Japan. And it seems to be quite reliable too since Matz also sits on the board of members. I'm still new to Ruby and want to have a career in the Ruby and Rails world. As an employer or HR dude, would you take someone that has this certification as a consideration to work at your company? Please share your insights. 

Kind regards,

--
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[Joseph Pearson]

To my mind, you can't beat the octocat: http://is.gd/33puw

- J

--

Joseph Pearson | software inventor | inventivelabs.com.au | +61384150866

[Steve Hayes]

As an employer, it would be a very minor plus at best. Other factors would dwarf the presence or absence of certification.

On 09/09/2009, at 11:53 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:

-----

Steve Hayes

Cogent Consulting

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[Nicholas Faiz]

Open source coding is a better pathway.

I'm certified in another language, but I don't think it helped me as
much as working on open source projects. Also employers/colleagues
that I'd want to be involved with wouldn't put it high on their
priorities. Cert. can give you theoretical depth in the language, but
you won't get as much practice at working with an active codebase, and
interesting OS projects give you the theory too (along with framework
exposure).

Better to contribute to an open project, or pick a problem and solve
it.


On Sep 9, 11:57 am, Joseph Pearson <jos...@inventivelabs.com.au>
wrote:

> To my mind, you can't beat the octocat:http://is.gd/33puw
>
> - J
>
> --
>
> Joseph Pearson | software inventor | inventivelabs.com.au | +61384150866
>
> On 09/09/2009, at 11:53 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
>
> > Hi ruby experts,
>

> > I saw there is a ruby certification (http://www.ruby-assn.org/en/certification.htm

[Joshua Partogi]

How would an employer look at the code that you personally wrote in an opensource project (assuming the project that you contribute has many contributors) ? 

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:41 PM, Nicholas Faiz <nichol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Open source coding is a better pathway.

I'm certified in another language, but I don't think it helped me as
much as working on open source projects. Also employers/colleagues
that I'd want to be involved with wouldn't put it high on their
priorities. Cert. can give you theoretical depth in the language, but
you won't get as much practice at working with an active codebase, and
interesting OS projects give you the theory too (along with framework
exposure).

Better to contribute to an open project, or pick a problem and solve
it.

 

[Mark Wotton]

On 09/09/2009, at 11:53 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:

Hi ruby experts,

I saw there is a ruby certification ( http://www.ruby-assn.org/en/certification.htm ) which seems to be fairly popular in Japan. And it seems to be quite reliable too since Matz also sits on the board of members. I'm still new to Ruby and want to have a career in the Ruby and Rails world. As an employer or HR dude, would you take someone that has this certification as a consideration to work at your company? Please share your insights. 

Kind regards,

You may be looking at it in the wrong way. The essence of hacking Ruby is to be agile, which may mean (paradoxically) going outside Ruby, getting familiar with other paradigms and other ways of doing it. If you want to hack on the same thing for a long time, you may be better off in Java.

Also, certification only guarantees a minimum quality, which is usually tragically low. Anywhere you'd actually want to work long-term is going to be looking for a much higher standard: certification is only likely to get you past the recruiter/HR.

mark

[Mark Wotton]

github! :)

mark

[Joshua Partogi]

Kewl. So it's okay to put your github repository url in your resume these days? Would an employer really consider it and really make time to take a look at your code in github? Any experience with this?

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Mark Wotton <mwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

github! :)

mark

[Joshua Partogi]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Mark Wotton <mwo...@gmail.com> wrote:

You may be looking at it in the wrong way. The essence of hacking Ruby is to be agile, which may mean (paradoxically) going outside Ruby, getting familiar with other paradigms and other ways of doing it. If you want to hack on the same thing for a long time, you may be better off in Java.

Yeah. I thought so too. But why did Matz created a Ruby certification if it isn't as important then? Perhaps because the demand is really big in Japan?

 

Also, certification only guarantees a minimum quality, which is usually tragically low. Anywhere you'd actually want to work long-term is going to be looking for a much higher standard: certification is only likely to get you past the recruiter/HR.

 

[Julio Cesar Ody]

Perhaps (that's just my guess) because in Japan the market gives
certification more importance then here? I know at least one other
country where that's a fact. And I also know that if I'm looking at
your CV and I see that, I personally would go "oh, nice", but that
wouldn't make or break a hire by FAR. That of course is the case of a
programmer being somewhat responsible for the hire. HR-only people
*may* actually think you're awesome thanks to that.

Make your projects public and open when you can. In the event of your
previous experience having been in closed source projects that ended
up never being released for whatever reason, be descriptive about
them, let people know about the technologies you used.

And good luck.

[Dave Bolton]

> Kewl. So it's okay to put your github repository url in your resume these days?

I've checked out GitHub repos for potential hires -- usually I'd look
at it WITH them, so we can have a discussion about it.

Similarly, if GitHub (or other) code is not available, I might ask an
interviewee to bring some code they'd like to show off/discuss to the
interview. And some organisations will put you through a coding task,
either on the spot or returnable after a day or two.

Anyway you look at it, these days many organisations want to see your
code, rather than rely on a certification.

Having said that, it is often the rockstar programmers, or at least
guys with quite a bit of experience, telling you that certification is
a waste of time (for instance, Mark Wotton is a very talented
developer who would probably never have needed a certification, and
when he says "anywhere you'd actually want to work", he probably means
anywhere he'd actually want to work.) For a junior non-rockstar
developer, it can be worthwhile for learning and on a resume ... to a
certain extent.

Cheers,
Dave

[Joshua Partogi]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Dave Bolton <daveb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kewl. So it's okay to put your github repository url in your resume these days?

I've checked out GitHub repos for potential hires -- usually I'd look
at it WITH them, so we can have a discussion about it.

Similarly, if GitHub (or other) code is not available, I might ask an
interviewee to bring some code they'd like to show off/discuss to the
interview. And some organisations will put you through a coding task,
either on the spot or returnable after a day or two.

Mmh. But if the candidate already pass a certification, then you wouldn't really need to give a coding task anymore right? Because you would know that he already pass solving the coding problems in the exam certification. By giving him another coding task, eventhough he already pass a certification is sort of not trusting the candidate. Wouldn't certification really save organization's time in filtering candidates during interview?

 

Anyway you look at it, these days many organisations want to see your
code, rather than rely on a certification.

Having said that, it is often the rockstar programmers, or at least
guys with quite a bit of experience, telling you that certification is
a waste of time (for instance, Mark Wotton is a very talented
developer who would probably never have needed a certification, and
when he says "anywhere you'd actually want to work", he probably means
anywhere he'd actually want to work.) For a junior non-rockstar
developer, it can be worthwhile for learning and on a resume ... to a
certain extent.

 

[Matthew Winter]

Hi,

You have to be very careful with certifications as they can become very easily devalued and then you could be tarred with the same brush.

For example, my employee, a database vendor expects all their employees to go for the certifications for their products, however I see on a daily basis people who have no experience or technical skills that have the certifications and many have the highest level of certification (6 exams), just so they are seen as being an expert. I have not looked in depth at the Ruby exam, but if it is multiple choice question based or relatively simple, then I would say only use it as training material, as it will get abused as the technology becomes ever more popular and salaries start to increase for the top coders. Apologies if this sound cynical, but thats my experience of certifications.

Nothing will beat real experience, reference code / sites, etc. Get your github account setup and start hacking. ;-)

Regards

Matthew Winter

On 09/09/2009, at 11:53 AM, Joshua Partogi wrote:

[Joshua Partogi]

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Julio Cesar Ody <juli...@gmail.com> wrote:

Perhaps (that's just my guess) because in Japan the market gives
certification more importance then here? I know at least one other
country where that's a fact.

Yeah. I'd be interested to know how is that Ruby certification is used in Japan. It wouldn't exist or created if there is no demand for it. 

 

And I also know that if I'm looking at
your CV and I see that, I personally would go "oh, nice", but that
wouldn't make or break a hire by FAR. That of course is the case of a
programmer being somewhat responsible for the hire. HR-only people
*may* actually think you're awesome thanks to that.

Make your projects public and open when you can. In the event of your
previous experience having been in closed source projects that ended
up never being released for whatever reason, be descriptive about
them, let people know about the technologies you used.

And good luck.

Thanks. I really need that. :-) 

[Daniel N]

More and more lately I've come to the conclusion. Github is my resumé!

[Dave Bolton]

> Mmh. But if the candidate already pass a certification, then you wouldn't
> really need to give a coding task anymore right? Because you would know that
> he already pass solving the coding problems in the exam certification. By
> giving him another coding task, eventhough he already pass a certification
> is sort of not trusting the candidate. Wouldn't certification really save
> organization's time in filtering candidates during interview?

Sure, IF an organisation has valued certification above their own
coding verification (be it a GitHub review, coding task or something
else.) But the better organisations don't do that.

[Mark Wotton]

On 09/09/2009, at 1:35 PM, Joshua Partogi wrote:

On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Dave Bolton <daveb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Kewl. So it's okay to put your github repository url in your resume these days?

I've checked out GitHub repos for potential hires -- usually I'd look
at it WITH them, so we can have a discussion about it.

Similarly, if GitHub (or other) code is not available, I might ask an
interviewee to bring some code they'd like to show off/discuss to the
interview. And some organisations will put you through a coding task,
either on the spot or returnable after a day or two.

Mmh. But if the candidate already pass a certification, then you wouldn't really need to give a coding task anymore right? Because you would know that he already pass solving the coding problems in the exam certification. By giving him another coding task, eventhough he already pass a certification is sort of not trusting the candidate. Wouldn't certification really save organization's time in filtering candidates during interview?

If you use it for filtering out people without the cert, you lose heaps of good programmers who'd rather build something cool than sit an artificial test. It could work if you just let the people with the cert not do the coding section, but that's not much of a win; you still have to have them in to check that they're reasonable human beings you can do good work with, and if you're going to do that, you might as well give them a 10 minute coding check. It's stunning how many people can talk a good game but can't write a simple chunk of code at a whiteboard. (I know it's not a native environment, but you should be able to write FizzBuzz without an editor.)

mark

[Nicholas Faiz]

There are a bunch of practices surrounding code which language cert.s
don't often touch on - TDD/BDD, SCM, being able to interpret
requirements intelligently, etc.. Open source coding lets your
practice these skills.

Julio Ody has a point about different cultures valuing certification
differently, but it might also be an 'employer smell' - i.e. an
indicator that the employer mightn't know how to manage coders as well
as an org. which preferenced other forms of experience.

Coding tasks are kind of nice things to be given, I think, as it lets
you work out how the employer/coder handles ideas, communicates
requirements, etc.. It's not so much as an exam which certification
could replace as a dress rehearsal of working together.

On Sep 9, 1:49 pm, Mark Wotton <mwot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 09/09/2009, at 1:35 PM, Joshua Partogi wrote:
>
>
>
>
>

> > On Wed, Sep 9, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Dave Bolton <davebol...@gmail.com>  

[Steve Gilles]

On Sep 9, 1:35 pm, Joshua Partogi <joshua.part...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mmh. But if the candidate already pass a certification, then you wouldn't
> really need to give a coding task anymore right?

Be wary of an employer who decides to skip a technical exercise just
because you have a certain piece of paper.

> Kewl. So it's okay to put your github repository url in your resume these
> days?

As a "HR dude" I strongly recommend including a github repository url
on the front page of your resume. I won't be analysing every line of
your code but simply mentioning gitub sets you apart from most.

With certifications in general, I'll look at them but it's no where
near the top of my priority list. The only exception to that rule is
the CCIE certification for networking professionals.

> Nothing will beat real experience, reference code / sites, etc. Get
> your github account setup and start hacking. ;-)

+1 for Matt Winter:



Steve Gilles
www.stevegilles.com
@stevelikesyou

[Joshua Partogi]

Thanks for all the response everyone. Now I get the idea of what I should have to pursue a career in the Ruby world. Now I'm gonna try to create some opensource project and put it on github.

Cheers.

 

[Ben Schwarz]

This thread is way too long!

Certifications are not to be used as a "tick" for developers.
In the Ruby space I'd say that it would give you little to no
advantage at all.

If a potential employer doesn't know your code, things you've done or
value
the way that you conduct your practice – do you really want to work
for them?



On Sep 9, 3:55 pm, Joshua Partogi <joshua.part...@gmail.com> wrote:

[David Lee]

Also, consider finding ways to contribute to existing projects, instead of / as well as starting your own.

If you pick something in wide use, you'll benefit from the name recognition; it'll be easier to contribute something useful than building your own project from the ground up; it'll also teach / demonstrate a set of skills and attributes beyond the ability to write beautiful code poetry all by yourself, and expose you to a bunch of experienced developers.

DL

--
cheers,
David Lee

[Mike Bailey]

A large percentage of people on this list got into Ruby before anyone offered certification. Early adopters tend to work for startups and web2.0 companies. They want bleeding edge, not certification.

As Ruby gains more acceptance in the mainstream, there may be more conservative employers (like financial institutions ) who value certification. I know some people list their Microsoft, Oracle, Cisco certification in their email sigfiles. If you want to work with those folks if might be worth hunting them out and asking whether certification helped them. They're probably probably not reading this list though.

- Mike