Re: [rails-oceania] Is your recruiter screwing you?

[Andrew Stone]

Ok Ash,

Two simple questions:

• Permanent developer: 100K pa - what is your placement fee?
• Contract developer: Client Pays 100ph total (including all on costs) what is the developer paid ph?

Regards,
Stonie.

On 13 July 2012 16:02, Ashley P <Is_ash_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Chances are they might be :)

But we aren't all bad! 

If you are a Ruby developer chances are you've probably seen my name before either on Seek, at Ruby meet-ups or on one of those pesky Linked-in invites I send around. I really like the Ruby community and have a passion for working with developers to find them cool jobs.

That being said recruitment gets a bad name especially amongst the Ruby community. I'm here to defend our reputation but also to acknowledge our flaws. 

Many recruiters do have no idea when it comes to development roles. They throw out buzz words like 'Apache' or 'Object Oriented' to make it look like they know what they are talking about. 

That being said a recruiter can often be of use. They can present opportunities that you wouldn't have heard about, discuss potential career movements or even help with your resume and skills training programs. 

Sure as a quality developer you could probably find a good job yourself. But are you sure it's the best job!!? Use your own networks in addition to a recruiter to expand the pool of jobs and find yourself in the best job you can!

Tips on dealing with recruiters:

• 1. Don't only use a recruiter. Use your own networks as well. Come up with an many opportunities as you can yourself and then use a recruiter or 2 to expand your opportunities
  
• 2. Don't be pushed around on Salary/Rate. Know what you're worth. Be open with your salary with a friend or former colleague to know what your worth and stick to it. (A common tactic is to ask people what they were on previously and hold them to a salary near this. You shouldn't fall for it. Be honest about what you were previously on but let the recruiter / hiring manager know that due to your research you believe the market rate to be X and that you are hoping for a figure around that mark.)  
• 3. Ask who the client is. Often a recruiter will want to chat to you a bit first however, it is totally within your right to ask who the recruiters client is after an initial chat to determine your suitability
• 4. Remember your in control of the process. If you don't like a specific recruiter don't use him/her. In fact it's your right to call up and say I don't want you representing me to X. 

Can a recruiter really help me?

• Yes and no. It really depends on the relationships the recruiter has built. 
• If the recruiter is blindly sending CV's around town without having met the hiring manager they really won't be of any use to you. 
• That being said if they have built a strong relationship with the hiring manager their word often will decide whether or not you get an interview :). They can also act as a beneficial middle ground to assist in negotiations and getting things moving!
  

Recruitment Rates

• Are recruitment rates too high? Well honestly yes they are fairly high but we are running a business and as you can all understand we need to make a profit!
• Also people don't realise the amount of effort we actually go to in providing a short-list. Many developers think I just simply called them, sent their resume to the company and got a massive cheque. What they don't realise is that to get that one person a job I had to look at over 400 resumes, speak to over 80 people and all for a 1/3 shot in actually filling a position. I work 8-6 and I'm a fairly quick worker!
• That being said yes some recruitment rates are too high and companies need to be smart on who they use. 

Anyway if your looking for a recruiter who loves the Ruby community and who actually cares about your career please give me a call. I won't screw you over and I'm available after-hours with bookings and all conversations are 100% confidential. 

ape...@bkit.com.au. 0404-590-975.

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[Nicholas Faiz]

Stonie great question! Recruiters who were transparent about what they charged, and could justify it, would win a lot of ground, I think.

Cheers,

Nicholas

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[Phil Oye]

Nicholas and Stonie,

Something got cut off on your emails.
You know, the part where you post your hourly rate/salary in a public forum, along with its justification for us all to judge.

p.

On 16/07/2012, at 8:17 AM, Nicholas Faiz wrote:

> Stonie great question! Recruiters who were transparent about what they charged, and could justify it, would win a lot of ground, I think.

On 15/07/2012, at 11:57 PM, Andrew Stone wrote:

> • Permanent developer: 100K pa - what is your placement fee?

[Nicholas Faiz]

Philoye,

Amusing. :) 

But there is a big difference here. Recruiters offer their services to coders (and potential employers). So I think transparency is fair there. In that sense, it's somewhat similar to speaking with a mortgage broker, who will act as a middle man and find you the best loan.

I'm happy to explain what I earn to an employer, or a recruiter, and to go through it and justify it. This is a somewhat moot point, as they have to find out anyway. I think it'd be *terrific* if I saw a similar transparency from a recruter.

And note, this doesn't mean Ash has to explain things en masse to the group. I'd just think it'd be a reform of sorts if recruiters began be explaining how they take their cut, as middle men often do. It'd be a factor for me when deciding to deal with one.

Cheers,

Nicholas

[Nicholas Faiz]

Ah, the home loan example was left unfleshed out.

One of my first programming jobs was in the home loans sector, and I saw how much mortgage brokers were making then (we're talking $500 an hour, etc.), without transparency. Since then some regulation has occurred, and mortgage brokers now openly state how they make their money (a sales commission structure from banks, I believe).

[Andrew Stone]

Hello Phill! same topic different day! ;)

Mr Oye you are very quick engage in a straw-man construction I will give you that ;)

We are talking about transparency.

From Ash:

I'm here to defend our reputation but also to acknowledge our flaws.

First of all good on him for having the balls! that's a tough job.

Since I think that the biggest cause of angst between developers and recruiters is the lack of transparency. I offered two questions.

Ash has come on a public list and offered in public to try and do some good. Given that the lack of transparency is the probably the biggest problem, here is a chance to address it.

Phil, don't work for hours or for a salary.. but I do run my own business and quote fair prices for jobs regularly.

I'm happy quote in public because quoting work is intrinsically public anyway. Plus it is a fair and open contract between two parties who agree knowing what the complete vertical will cost.

Conversely, If part of a business model is hiding information to take advantage would you class that as good or fair?

Regards,
Stonie.

     Andrew Stone +61 (0)412 488 251
     and...@drivenlogic.com.au | http://drivenlogic.com.au

    DrivenLogic Pty Ltd | Pragmatic Software Construction
    GPO Box 2746, Sydney, NSW, 2001, Australia

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[Nicholas Faiz]

Nice reply Ash.

On Monday, July 16, 2012 11:46:40 AM UTC+10, Ashley P wrote:

15% of the salary package for permanent roles and approximately a 15% margin for contractors. :)

A lot of contractors think we don't do anything for them. This is actually true we don't. 

The service we provide isn't paid by the contractor, it's paid by the company. 

The margin we make is payment for the head-hunting/short-listing process for the companies requirement. If a new contract comes in I'll often work back until 8 trying to call as many people as I can to see if they are interested in the role. 

It is surprisingly hard to find good developers who are open to new opportunities! :) Most are usually happy already!

A common misconception is that once the developer starts he goes. "Hey how come your taking 15%-20% of my pay-check". Seems fair enough at first sight however, we need to get paid for the 100 other people we called trying to interest them in the role!

[Andrew Stone]

Thanks for being open and honest Ash.

In my experience 15% is better than average providing you have included on-costs like insurance and 6% payroll (for contractors).
You should do better than most, best of luck.

Regards,
Stonie.

On 16 July 2012 11:46, Ashley P <Is_ash_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

15% of the salary package for permanent roles and approximately a 15% margin for contractors. :)

A lot of contractors think we don't do anything for them. This is actually true we don't. 

The service we provide isn't paid by the contractor, it's paid by the company. 

The margin we make is payment for the head-hunting/short-listing process for the companies requirement. If a new contract comes in I'll often work back until 8 trying to call as many people as I can to see if they are interested in the role. 

It is surprisingly hard to find good developers who are open to new opportunities! :) Most are usually happy already!

A common misconception is that once the developer starts he goes. "Hey how come your taking 15%-20% of my pay-check". Seems fair enough at first sight however, we need to get paid for the 100 other people we called trying to interest them in the role!

On Monday, 16 July 2012 09:13:31 UTC+10, Nicholas Faiz wrote:

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[Ben Taylor]

From my point of view my biggest issue is with the percentage commission. 

My family is full of Real Estate agents and so I am very familiar with percentage driven jobs. However I've seen that a salesperson earning money purely from percentages can easily fall into a desperation spiral where they are not selling enough and so desperately try to close deals, despite the inappropriateness. This desperation leads to failure and then the cycle continues.

First hand this is the sort of behaviour we see from recruiters. Instead of acting as a good agent, they desperately contact (and annoy) as many people as they possibly can. Flooding job boards, mailing lists, meet ups and anywhere else a candidate might be. Perhaps this isn't the behaviour we see from the really good ones, but this is the majority of interactions.

I personally think that industries like this could be significantly transformed by switching from percentages to flat rates based on services. The Recruitment Agency charges some fixed cost per resume, or per candidate or per hour, plus a fixed "bonus" for landing a successful candidate. Then the recruiters themselves are salaried. Just like any Software or Digital Agency.

The recruiters themselves want the meaty percentages, because it seems like a better deal - however just like other sales people who work on commission this actually works to both parties detriment.

An article I like by Fogcreek about salespeople and commission http://blog.fogcreek.com/why-do-we-pay-sales-commissions/

 - Ben

[David Goodlad]

On 19/07/2012, at 9:27 AM, Owen B. Mehegan wrote:

> […] the pay scale is also a good bit higher than in Australia from what I can tell (ballpark $100k a year for any decent engineer, barring fresh college grads; more for experienced/specialized people).

[…]

> When I eventually move to Australia, where I have no network and no reputation and may not be in demand the way I am in San Francisco, I might just give you a call Ash :)

I think you've greatly underestimated the Australian market's demand for Ruby devs, especially in Melbourne and Sydney. 100k+ is a very achievable rate for a "decent engineer", with significantly higher rates available to more specialised and experienced people. Finding good devs here is difficult, and talented people are snapped up before they're publicly on the market.

Dave

[Andrew Stone]

Guys, earlier in the thread... the 100K quoted was just an example to make the percentage maths easy, not indicative of the market... just a tactic to avoid wasting brain cycles. :)

Regards,
Stonie.

[David Goodlad]

On 19/07/2012, at 11:53 AM, Andrew Stone wrote:

> Guys, earlier in the thread... the 100K quoted was just an example to make the percentage maths easy, not indicative of the market... just a tactic to avoid wasting brain cycles. :)

… and later in the thread, unless I severely misunderstood Owen's post, the 100k quoted was unrelated to your figures ;)

Dave

[Andrew Stone]

    the 100k quoted was unrelated to your figures ;)

Ok cool, just making sure I wasn't the source. ;)

<OpinionatedRant>

For record I have personally seen recruiter margins of 33% ph on contracts and heard of horror stories of higher.

My main bugbear is lack of transparency... if you don't know what something costs then you can't determine its worth very easily or perhaps at all.

Of course, this is not like buying a box of oranges! This is a human being who works with you... after a while you talk and the margin is uncovered and everyone usually gets pissed off.

We all want to create better software? recruiter margins won't help... they can cause unexpected retention problems for starters (usually angst due to uneven pay rates with those employed directly).

So I think in most cases the value proposition for recruiters is pretty weak... very weak if you have a strong network.

I think Ben made a lot of valid points about the problems of percentage based commission. That frog creek article is worth a read... It may explain some of the strange agent behaviour from the larger agencies, and why some smaller interdependent higher quality recruiters are able to stand out (Ash, Steve et al.).

If you are hiring, why not work out what direct recruitment costs? then spend the remainder on better tools, R&D, a new coffee machine, decent chairs... an in house recruitment resource? dev time on open source projects? developer pay? In office Jacuzzi? Huge inflatable Richard Stallman? TL;DR. ...probably stating the obvious here...

Ok maybe not the Jacuzzi. ;)

Your customers and developers will love you for it.

</OpinionatedRant>

Over and out,
Stonie.

P.S: The best bit: When they know you won't use them they _eventually_ stop calling. it's bliss. ;D

     Andrew Stone +61 (0)412 488 251
     and...@drivenlogic.com.au | http://drivenlogic.com.au

    DrivenLogic Pty Ltd | Pragmatic Software Construction
    GPO Box 2746, Sydney, NSW, 2001, Australia

[Samuel Richardson]

This has been a very interesting thread. I've deliberately kept mention of our startup of the list and only gave it a brief mention at the last Melbourne meetup because I don't want to spam the community, instead we've tried to talk to people one on one at the meetups to let people know what we've been working on.

But from the messages going backwards and forwards in this thread then my post will be somewhat on topic.

We're building a freelancing service called "Dragonfly". It's to address some of the issues that came up in this thread:

- Lack of transparency from recruiters

- The recruiter commission fee

- The placement of people by recruiters regardless of skill level.

The first and second points are handled in our pricing model. We charge the creative agency / startup / whatever a monthly fee for access to the service. For the freelancer it's free. This means that contact details for freelancers are freely available on the website / weekly email.

Secondly, we curate the list by looking at things like Github profiles, previous work, code samples etc. We can help with things like setting your hourly rates etc.

Setting hourly rates touches on the second important part of what we built. That is, it's a market place where you compete on skill, not cost. We keep any mention of hourly rates / day rates / project rates etc off the website and between you and the agency which avoids people undercutting each other to try and attract work, which lowers the quality of everyone.

We don't have a lot of demand for Ruby/Rails at the moment, it's far more for mobile / front end development / heavy javascript development so the list may not get too much benefit out of it right now, but I'm happy to follow up with any Ruby freelancers and get you onto our books. Likewise any development studios that are looking for freelancers can contact me and I'll arrange for you to get access to the weekly email and website.

We're live now but I won't post a link as this has been enough spam. Please contact me via email if you'd like to know more though.

Samuel Richardson
www.richardson.co.nz | 0405 472 748

[Rob]

Hi all,

I am a recruiter, and have had success with this board in placing candidates in the market. I totally agree with what Ashley is saying in relation to fee structures etc. I would like to elaborate upon the concept of Margin, which may equate to a higher than 20% markup. I have no doubt that everyone understands this, but just to be sure, as an example...margin is the percentage of the charge rate, and markup is the percentage on the cost...two totally different things....especially when oncosts are involved.

For instance, if I was to charge a 15% margin on a candidate, who was earning $100 per hour, I would have to charge the client $129...this ensures that I am earning 15% margin.

To the candidate, I am effectively putting on a 29% markup...BUT only earning 15% margin (of the charge rate)

This is where the confusion lies the difference between MARGIN and MARKUP


ie. for $129 charge, 15% margin ($19), 10% oncost (workers comp, PI/PL, Payroll Tax), and $100 for the candidate

$100 + $10 + $19 = $129...the recruiter is earning 15% margin of the charge rate.

If we reverse it from a charge of $100 at a margin of 15%....I would earn $15, oncost $7, candidate rate $77....this is a margin of 15% of the charge rate....but if you compare the $77 to the $100 charge, it is roughly a 29-30% markup again.


So, if people are seeing 30% markups on their rates, please don't assume that the recruiter is earning all of that....they aren't. On top of the services of payrolling, recruiters take the risk of clients folding or not paying, when we always pay our recruiters upon signed timesheets, regardless if the client has paid or not....this of course saves the candidate from having to chase payment (one more worry they don't have to deal with). AND YES, sometimes clients do fold or don't pay.....which means as a recruiter, you are out of pocket for the total candidate rate + oncosts and of course with the margin that you have lost as well. Once had a client not pay for a candidate for two months, they folded, ...so lost whole lot of money. Some candidates may laugh and say, well them's the breaks....and well, I would have to agree....but we do charge a fee for a service and the risk associated where there is essentially no risk to the candidate in terms of non-payment (with me anyway)

Also, 15% or there abouts, in the scheme of things, with the amount of payroll at risk, is not overly expensive (we currently have a yearly payroll of about $1.5million per year give or take - money we pay out and hope to get back - this is small for the market).....I have recruited for some of the big4 and some of their charge-outs for their permanent employees are amazing...we are talking 100-200% sometimes.

So, if you are on a contract through a recruiter, and you are getting paid on time for the work you are doing and the pay is correct (no hassles or problems each week)...then this is a good thing and is part of the service for that 15% margin that they earn.

I firmly agree with Ashley that rule of thumb contract is roughly 20-30% increase on a permanent salary...so if you are on $100 per hour, divide that by 1.25 and you will get your equivalent permanent comparative rate which can easily translate into a permanent salary package...roughly $115k

EVERYONE, regardless of industry or skill needs to separate job worth from personal worth. ie, if a CEO hit rock bottom and could only get a job as a cleaner, he would only be paid a cleaners salary, even though he is worth a CEO salary.

So, if you are getting hit up for low paying roles, that is what the job is worth to the employer, if you feel that it is too low, then don't go for it (sometimes employers try their luck)....as recruiters we need to keep in constant contact with candidates as their situations change and sometimes I have had candidates go for lower rate jobs (rare, but it does happen). If you are the best Ruby developer in the world, and you are worth $1000 per hour but only $50 per hour roles are available, then you have to make a judgement call based upon job worth to personal worth....ie you can say "Im worth $1000 per hour and not doing that" and don't work and get zero income, or you could have income by working at $50 per hour....extreme example I know, but hopefully highlights the point I am trying to make.

Yes, there are cowboys in the industry, as with any industry, but like Ashley said, there are some good recruiters out there that know their markets well, and network hard to find out who, what, when, where, why and how........, without finding that information out, they can't provide candidates jobs nor can they provide clients candidates....hence the need to call people...many many many many people :)

[Andrew Stone]

Rob,

Your post is a good summary of why many people consider the recruitment model you describe as being 'broken'.

The on-costs you point out can be avoided in many cases... lots of small businesses are exempt from payroll tax (Current threshold in NSW is $689,000)
And many industry segments for larger corporates (media for one) often does not require PI and PL for Developers.

Recruitment agencies tend to charge the insurance anyway as they have a discounted policy for n Developers and it becomes another place to hide the cream (and seems like a value add with a bit of sales talk).

Your argument about low paying jobs is a bit ironic... if the offered rate was ~30% higher due to the absence of a recruitment agent... the job might be worth taking.

Regards,
Andrew Stone.

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[Shamael Keng]

Hey guys.

This argument/discussion is as old as zues's beard.

Frankly if you don't want to use a recuruiter dont.

If you do want to use a recruiter, negotiate your terms to suit both
parties. simple. Its a service, you engage them when you need them and
for a reason.

I you want to bash on an industry just becuase you pay invoices which
"seem" too much. refer to above point.

In an industry which employs a lot of "questionable" types, if you
have a bad experiance, name and shame. I can't say I have been
exemplery, but all I can say is ive been trasnperant throughout the
whole process.

"Is your recruiter screwing you?". Probably if you let him. The whole
argument in regards to the costing or cost structure recruiters use,
use a niche recruiter, if you are going to use one. They will be more
open to negotiation.

Do your homework, don't be lazy.

You have gone to agency becuase you are having toruble finding the
right people. Don't go to monkey's when you want to find gold.

Sorry but I fight for the good recruitment agent, the ones who add
value to business's thorugh finding resources which are hard to find.
In my eyes there is definate value add, Ive seen it.

Regards

--
SK

[Shamael Keng]

mind my spelling, written in a rush and in the middle of breakfast.

[Rob]

Hi Stonie,

Unfortunately, for recruitment companies, we are not exempt from payroll tax. I would like to be, especially with company contractors. I feel, that if I am paying a company, as opposed to a contractor, then the company (that that person works through) is liable for the payroll  tax....logically it should be this way, but unfortunately it is not....our CPA accountant went to the ATO to check this when we told him and even he was amazed that we are liable....doesn't make sense, but its the case

For the oncost....we just need to charge it to be covered...we do need PI/PL as a business for any contractor that goes through the business...do we absolutely need it (legally)...I suppose not....but it similar to comprehensive insurance on a car....you don't NEED it, but it is advisable to get it....even if your customer doesn't need you to have it. Any company providing a service to another company basically has to have it. PI is for the contractor pressing the wrong button and bringing a system down (unlikely I know, but have to have it to be safe - blue chip custmers demand it) and PL is for a contractor that leaves a waste paper basket in a walkway and another contractor or permanent employee of the company trips and hits their head. Just insurances that we on charge to the client....this is not some new business model that I or other recruiters have created out of thin air, most costs are calculated in the charge rate for any product/service. It costs us roughly 4% for this inclusive of factoring. I can absolutely assure you that this is not cream, as we pay it out to our insurance broker.

Even if a company could get a contractor directly, there are still oncosts associated with paying someone $100 per hour. Not direct as such, but there are oncosts associated with mangement of the contractor, payrolling, OH&S, payroll tax etc......might not be 30% markup, but would be at least 10-15%. Of course, candidates can contact companies directly and get those direct contracts - absolutely, but I don't think that they have the time to make the amount of calls we do as recruiters to get the amount of business ops we do, as they are focused on their current contract and performing their duties....if there are professionals who only need to make one call to get that next engagement, then I would like to learn from them.

In relation to the low paying jobs....my only suggestion is to go for what you want (what you are happy with) knowing that there are oncosts and margins on top for the client, if you are to go through a recruiter for reasons stated. Not asking anyone to undersell themselves, but market changes can affect what people are looking to pay which therefore affects what people can earn.  Therefore roughly at 15% margin, and you are earning $100...know that the client is being charged roughly $130....but the recruiter worked to get that opportunity first of all, and he/she worked to get into contact with the right candidate to put forward (all this unpaid)...if you went to the recruiter and said, I just want the $130 charge rate, of course it wouldn't work...as there is zero margin and the recruiter would have to pay oncosts to pay you that $130, essentially losing money (paying $13 an hour out for someone to earn $130) ....now, no business I know of values that model

As recruiters, we get paid only success....contractors get paid on work done. If we don't succeed (regardless of the amount of work put in) we don't get paid. We are not like lawyers or accountants who charge by the hour (would love to do that though :) ) ...but of course, if that was the case, we can't charge candidates (that is illegal) which leaves only the clients, and as a client, I am sure that I would only like to pay on success rather than pay a recruiter by the hour.

All in all, if you can go direct and get that extra 30%...know that it still costs the direct company extra % on top of this...therefore paying a recruiter the x+30% to have everything covered is a cheaper option than taking a contractor directly at the same rate. Of course the extra % on top for the employer is of no real worry to the candidate getting x+30%...so all I can say is go for it...if those x+30% roles are easy to find and get, then absolutely - go for it.

As a recruiter, we use recruitment companies to find us employees for our company. Reason? Well, I speak with IT people all day and know that market, but I don't speak with recruiters all day, hence outsourcing the service to a company completely focused on who is who in the recruitment world. It makes sense, as the opportunity cost of working that market is higher than what the Rec2Rec company would charge me. Even recruitment companies are customers of recruitment companies :) and those recruiters have to deal with recruitment companies to get roles in other recruitment companies...and Rec2Rec is quite a large market.

Stonie, if you really want a warts and all understanding of recruitment, feel free to give me a call on 0409 226 539

I would even be happy for you to sit with me for a few hours to see exactly what I do. I have done it with some contractors of mine (ie work with them) but I am not a trained developer, so most of it went over my head, but got a feeling of what their pressures are etc. How many recruiters have offered you this?

let me know

Cheers

Rob

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[Michael Pearson]

<snip>

Hitler.

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[Jonathan Dalgleish]

Was waiting for that. ; ) JD

[Andrew Stone]

> This argument/discussion is as old as zues's beard.

And this thread is as long as ZZ Tops beards combined. ;)

As primary antagonist I would like to call case closed in the affirmative.

Regards,
Stonie.

[Rob]

Hi Stonie,

I guess that is a "no". :)

My offer still stands if you wish to take it up...of course the response was long as I couldn't contact you directly about it...but I hope you appreciate I am being absolutely honest and willing to offer insight into an industry that many have some disdain for. I have tried in the past to completely understand what a developer goes through on a day to day basis, I was hoping one developer (someone with a vocal opinion on our industry) would do the same.

Once again, give me a call anytime, if you have some questions about the industry....would save ZZ Top Beard length responses :)

Cheers

Rob

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[Clifford Heath]

On 01/08/2012, at 1:54 PM, Rob wrote:
> ... I am … willing to offer insight into an industry that many have some disdain for.

A lot of the ire expressed in this list is because we see it as primarily
a developer's list, where technical subjects are discussed. Recruiters
are tolerated because finding work is a legitimate interest of developers.

Long discussions about the merits of recruitment ethics are simply NOT
relevant, unless they concern someone who was personally harmed and
wishes to help other developers avoid that.

That's why Michael tried to draw the discussion to a close with his Hitler
quip. If you STILL don't understand that, then you don't have the level of
interpersonal insight that I personally would expect of any recruiter that
I would like to deal with.

IOW… enough now? Please?

Clifford Heath.

[Rob]

Hi Ashley, ...just to point out, you did actually start this thread, in relation to "Is your recruiter screwing you"....therefore I don't see how you can change sides and suddenly declare "This forums for development not recruitment, so lets all (including myself) respect that".....seems a bit contradictory.  I agree that it is a developers board, didn't start the thread, only added further insight on top of your "initial" opinions which I agree with.


On Wednesday, August 1, 2012 2:59:51 PM UTC+10, Ashley P wrote:

Ah Cliff. I do definately do agree. I didn't mean to start such a long discussion. This is a forum for development not recruitment so let's all (including myself) respect that :)

[lachie]

I think there's enough consensus for finishing this thread. Sorry for the heavy handedness, but: Locking.