bad bad news :( we all must ditch Ruby on Rails

[Wojciech Kruszewski]

Sorry folk to bring bad news but someone has to do it. I mean it's
nice Saturday morning here and it would be great to talk about
something cheerful - but this is serious and can't wait.

We're all in trouble. I mean big trouble.

Yesterday I met this web guru. He really is a guru - people who need a
web site all come to him to ask about his opinions. He's a master of
Photoshop, knows all cool tricks and has created many websites - some
are even e-commerce - taking payments with PayPal, selling porn
pictures and all that. Ok, so I've met him and while we're chatting I
mentioned that I build web applications in Ruby on Rails. He frowned,
looked around and than shared this horrible truth:

"But Ruby is slow!" he revealed.

"Well... yeah, kind of, true," I agreed but then added, "but actually
all apps I've worked on are fast enough."

"Are they?" he asked giving me an odd looks. "Perhaps, perhaps. But
you just wait until they become really popular and lots of visitors
come."

"What happens then?" I asked impatiently.

"Your site won't handle this," he explained with raised brows, "users
will need to wait long or see errors... like those in Twitter... you
know - the one with a whale."

Then after a long pause he added: "It's because Rails doesn't scale".

There. That's it. This is what happened last evening. Damn it... why
didn't *anybody* tell me about it when I started learning Rails?!

Rails doesn't scale - would you believe that? Now we all have to re-
write all our applications before they get popular. He recommended
Drupal, because it has this amazing module, called CCK (stands for
Content Creation Kit), where you can create data types, add fields,
set relations - all in the admin panel. So much work to do...

I felt it's my responsibility to share this with you. I hope this
won't spoil your weekend.

Take care,
Wojciech

--
http://oxos.pl

[Dr Nic Williams]

I might take up professional horse shoeing now. Damn.

Cheers
Nic

Mocra - http://mocra.com
Blog - http://drnicwilliams.com

> --
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>

[Robert Dempsey]

You mean Jason Seifer has been right all along? I call shenanigans on this bullshit here and now. Rails can't scale. Phewy.

- Rob Dempsey

[Mike Moore]

What...

Have I done...

With my life...

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 5, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Wojciech Kruszewski <wojc...@oxos.pl>
wrote:

[Robby Russell]

I've actually been aware of this problem all along. My business plan
for Planet Argon was to help launch a ton of web applications for
clients and in the background.. have been working on another company
that is trained in converting Ruby on Rails applications to
Python/Django... which is known to scale.

This allows us to bill the same client... twice! Pretty clever, eh?

Robby

> --
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>
>

--
Robby Russell
Chief Evangelist, Partner

PLANET ARGON, LLC
Web Design and Development with Ruby on Rails

http://planetargon.com/

+1 408 372 7466
+1 877 55 ARGON [toll free]
+1 815 642 4068 [fax]

[Mike Moore]

Brilliant!

[Ginny Hendry]

Obviously a VERY sophisticated web guy! He's heard of "Twitter... you

know - the one with a whale."

-Ginny


--- wojc...@oxos.pl wrote:

[Xavier Noria]

After reflecting on those remarks I'm leaving this nonsense. I'll go
up to the mountains and practice meditation for years in some cave.

[Rick DeNatale]

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 11:23 AM, Robby Russell <ro...@planetargon.com> wrote:
> I've actually been aware of this problem all along. My business plan
> for Planet Argon was to help launch a ton of web applications for
> clients and in the background.. have been working on another company
> that is trained in converting Ruby on Rails applications to
> Python/Django... which is known to scale.
>
> This allows us to bill the same client... twice! Pretty clever, eh?
>
> Robby
>

I think you've got a future in Hollywood, VHS, LaserDisc, DVD, BlueRay...

--
Rick DeNatale

Blog: http://talklikeaduck.denhaven2.com/
Twitter: http://twitter.com/RickDeNatale
WWR: http://www.workingwithrails.com/person/9021-rick-denatale
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/rickdenatale

[Emanuele Tozzato]

DONE!

> Your Amazon.com order 102-7342740-8640114 has shipped!

> ==================================================
> SHIPPING DETAILS
> ==================================================

> 1. Python/Django Agile Development CookBook for the converted Rubist, hardcover, 350p

On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Rick DeNatale <rick.d...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Python/Django..
--
Emanuele Tozzato
http://hi.im/mek

[Aaron Blohowiak]

I can't tell if you are joking or being serious. If you mean playing
the game "horse shoes", then I think you are in for a world of hurt.
The sponsorships have gone away because of all the sex scandals in the
sport. Now, if you meant becoming a farrier, that is something I can
understand! Business must be booming!!! Horses need their hooves
trimmed every 6-8 weeks, so if you lock in a few long-term contracts,
you could use them to secure a credit line to expand, expand, expand..
Then maybe sell out to a hedge fun in an LBO....

I am going to build a social networking site for farriers (using
joomla, because Ruby on Rails doesn't have a community engine,) and
make money with google ads.. looking for enterprising students or
people looking to flush out their resume. This is a non-paying gig for
3% of equity, vesting over 20 years.

[Wojciech Kruszewski]

Good choice.

This way you can apply some software development practices. Like, say,
Agile. "If the horse kicks - DUCK!".

HDS - Horse Driven Shoing?

[Ian McFarland]

Wow. I can't believe you're actually spreading this FUD. Scalability
is about architecture, not language. Say what you want about Twitter,
but their web tier has scaled. How many of you have web apps that
support 50 million users?

Robby, I actually think double billing the same users like you
describe is not 'clever'. s/clever/unethical/g and maybe you have
something.

Maybe if you'd just focus on getting your architecture right, you
wouldn't have to double-dip on your clients.

Cheers,
-Ian

Sent from my iPhone

[Greg Pederson]

Hmm, seems someone might have missed the tongue-in-cheek humor.....
http://canrailsscale.com/

Greg Pederson
Founder and Technical Director

407.385.0098 office
888.308.9695 toll free

@gregpederson twitter
Nsight Development, LLC.
www.NsightDevelopment.com

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes

[Tammer Saleh]

Knowing Ian, that was just a perfect dry-humor response :)

Cheers,
Tammer Saleh

---

tammersaleh.com | 626.841.0708

[Aaron Blohowiak]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Ian McFarland <i...@pivotallabs.com> wrote:
[snip]

> Robby, I actually think double billing the same users like you
> describe is not 'clever'. s/clever/unethical/g and maybe you have
> something.

The legal term for this is racketeering, which sounds pretty exciting to me!

[Philip Hallstrom]

On Dec 7, 2009, at 10:02 AM, Aaron Blohowiak wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 9:51 AM, Ian McFarland <i...@pivotallabs.com>
> wrote:
> [snip]
>> Robby, I actually think double billing the same users like you
>> describe is not 'clever'. s/clever/unethical/g and maybe you have
>> something.
>
> The legal term for this is racketeering, which sounds pretty
> exciting to me!

Would I get to be a pirate? Sure sounds like something a pirate would
do!

[Aaron Blohowiak]

I hear that is legal in Sweden.

On a more serious note, does the pending ISO 1.8.7 have implications
for anyone's business?

[Jason Green]

This whole thread left me throughly distressed over the weekend and
quickly I had to think up a plan for myself and the rest of my team.

Knowing that all other agencies are already migrating away from Rails
and as such leaving little work for me and my team, I had to think up
a different strategy.
Here is my business plan:

A painting company.

Time to learn painting -> 2 weeks (as we have used photoshop before)
Key to a sustainable revenue stream:

1. Obtain council contract to redecorate/maintain all council
buildings and communal areas
2. Obtain spray paint when work is low and graffiti all council areas
creating new work
3. Cycle and repeat -> guaranteed income (on a side note we could even
outsource the gang graffiti to the guy who sprayed the skatepark up
the road)

I recommend this to anyone moving away from rails (not in my local
area please as I have to maintain market share)

Jason Green

Dynamic50 Web Design and Development

Tel: +44 (0)20 868 66372
Mob: +44 (0)7850 732812
Skype: dynamic50.com
Twitter: dynamic50
Email: jason...@dynamic50.com
Web: http://www.dynamic50.com


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[Ian McFarland]

No, sorry, I actually missed the <satire/> tag. Greg was right. Thanks, Tammer, for believing in me!  

In my own defense I've just been having the rails scaling discussion again with both potential clients and another new crop of folks who have been reading the same tired discussion. The arguments were too realistic. Unfortunately artistic hyperbole can never match the distorted reality it tries to emulate, because it becomes implausible before it matches the truth. This approximation was too close, so I took it for real.

Should have considered the context more! These words from other people (and worse) might well have been sincere, unfortunately.

So despite what I said, I *could* believe people were spreading such FUD. 

One last thought I'll share on the issue, since I found it useful in a recent talk on Rails scalability: next time someone uses Twitter as an example, ask if they've had trouble loading the Fail Whale. And then quietly point out that it was Rails that served it! (FPS = Failwhales per second?)

There was more in the talk, of course. I can post my slides if anyone is interested.

Cheers,

-Ian

Sent from my iPhone

[Philip Hallstrom]

> One last thought I'll share on the issue, since I found it useful in a
> recent talk on Rails scalability: next time someone uses Twitter as an
> example, ask if they've had trouble loading the Fail Whale. And then
> quietly point out that it was Rails that served it! (FPS = Failwhales
> per second?)

I've gotten lucky in that my clients either take my word for it or
understand that at the point Rails can't scale is the point you'd have
problems with a lot of other frameworks and need to look at your
database and load balancing, etc. etc. etc...

So I've never had to use this, but it occurs to me that you might
point them to the Facebook Platform Live Status blog... and remind
them they use PHP. Some days it's amazing the number of "performance"
related posts...

http://developers.facebook.com/live_status.php

Now, granted the problems they face probably aren't related to PHP at
all, but maybe it will help folks compare apples to apples...

-philip

[Wojciech Kruszewski]

> No, sorry, I actually missed the <satire/> tag. Greg was right.  
> Thanks, Tammer, for believing in me!

Phew. I started being afraid of going to the special part of hell for
people spreading FUD. I think it's next pit to the one for spammers.

Should have add a disclaimer: "Encounter with The Web Guru and the
dialogue described here are completely true, but author's impression
was exaggerated for the dramatic effect. Please do not base your
technological choices for your new start-up on this post. Thank you."

Please do share your slides!

Regards,
Wojciech

--
http://twitter.com/WojciechK/ http://oxos.pl

> > >> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rails-business?hl=en

> > >> .
>
> > > --
> > > Robby Russell
> > > Chief Evangelist, Partner
>
> > > PLANET ARGON, LLC
> > > Web Design and Development with Ruby on Rails
>
> > >http://planetargon.com/
>
> > > +1 408 372 7466
> > > +1 877 55 ARGON [toll free]
> > > +1 815 642 4068 [fax]
>
> > > --
>
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > Groups "Ruby on Rails meets the business world" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to rails-

> > busi...@googlegroups.com.

> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rails-busines...@googlegroups.com
> > > .

> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rails-business?hl=en
> > > .
>
> > --
>

> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
> > Groups "Ruby on Rails meets the business world" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rails-b...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rails-busines...@googlegroups.com
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rails-business?hl=en
> > .
>
> > --
> > Greg Pederson
> > Founder and Technical Director
>
> > 407.385.0098 office
> > 888.308.9695 toll free
>
> > @gregpederson twitter
> > Nsight Development, LLC.
> >www.NsightDevelopment.com
>
> > Quis custodiet ipsos custodes
>
> > --
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google  
> > Groups "Ruby on Rails meets the business world" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rails-b...@googlegroups.com.

> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rails-busines...@googlegroups.com
> > .

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rails-business?hl=en
> > .
>
> > --
>

[Greg Pederson]

Ian, I had figured you might have been responding under duress....it happens to the best of us...most of October seemed to be dealing with less than ideal clients for me :)

Here's a nice series on scaling rails from a local colleague.....
http://railslab.newrelic.com/scaling-rails

Greg

[Jarin Udom]

On Dec 7, 10:23 am, Ian McFarland <i...@pivotallabs.com> wrote:
> No, sorry, I actually missed the <satire/> tag. Greg was right.  
> Thanks, Tammer, for believing in me!

At first I thought it was double reverse sarcasm and I laughed.

Then it turned out to be a sperg and I laughed more :)

Jarin

[Manik Juneja]

Hey Wojciech,

Can you please connect me to the "Guru".

I need some twitter like "Whales" and some other animals (maybe even a horse since Dr. Nic mentioned it) for the Rails apps that we have built.
Atleast our users would love the failure page, when our sites become famous.

I just can't afford the risk of disappointing our users by not having a super sexy failure page. And I am sure, only the "guru" with his photoshop skills and cool tricks can deliver that.

Please! Please! Please!

Manik.

[esavard]

Damn,

> Yesterday I met this web guru. He really is a guru -

Does he dress with a long robe and wear that strange medallion with a
big eye inside a pyramid? Then it's a true guru and he just escaped
from psychiatric institution. Please bring him back.

> He's a master of Photoshop, knows all cool tricks and has created many websites - some
> are even e-commerce - taking payments with PayPal, selling porn

Yeah, a true master indeed. And he surely know his stuff, down to the
skin!

>
> He recommended Drupal, because it has this amazing module, called CCK

And I recommend Ruby because of this amazing framework, called Rails.
It's wonderful and even let you create some webpages with big whales
on it! :)

LOL, you really made my day. Less people like you will mean more
Rails business for serious and competent people. That's a good
thing. Tell your guru to continue is disinformation work. :)

Etienne.

[Bryce Kerley]

Noooooo.............

[Stirling Olson]

Methinks there should be <strongsarcasm></strongsarcasm> wrapped around Robby's previous note.

-Stirling

[Pablo]

hahaha

you gotta be kidding

[Paul W]

""But Ruby is slow!" he revealed. "

Reminds me of a time way back in the mid 90s' when I was changing from
programming in C to java.
Too slow they said..it'll never catch on...this interweb thingy is
just a passing fad...etc.etc....
Now ruby is my language of choice...so elegant and concise and a great
community of developers who are happy to share their gems of
wisdom.

Paul W

[Greg Pederson]

This reply forced me to google the word spreg....I was ignorant of it.

For anyone else that might not know it either here is the urban dictionary entry:

	Sperg
	an aspergers person throwing a tantrum to have an infantile shitfit about something completely arbitrary He got banned from the IRC channel after sperging at the admins D:

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[William Bridges]

We must all switch to the Zend framework immediately guys... lol

--
Thanks,
Will Bridges
Co-Founder & Owner / CogWise Software
http://www.cogwisesoftware.com
P: 615-349-1563
M: 540-539-8566

[Wojciech Kruszewski]

On Dec 6, 3:23 pm, esavard <savard.etie...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Does he dress with a long robe and wear that strange medallion with a
> big eye inside a pyramid?  Then it's a true guru and he just escaped
> from psychiatric institution.  Please bring him back.

Nope, sorry. Do you mean he's not a real guru then? But come to think
about it, he does have this strange glow around him. And I'm not
entirely sure, but I think his feet do not touch the ground. I don't
mean he flies, just... levitates half an inch over the ground. Does
this count?

[snip]

> LOL, you really made my day.  Less people like you will mean more
> Rails business for serious and competent people.  That's a good
> thing.

I'm delighted I could help you get more Rails business. Could you then
perhaps recommend me on WWR? http://www.workingwithrails.com/person/16499-wojciech-kruszewski

> Tell your guru to continue is disinformation work. :)

Sure do. I enjoy every bit of his wisdom.

P.S. But then again, the glow might not be a sign of his "guruness"
but rather combined radiation of many electronic gadgets.

[Ben McDonald]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Wojciech Kruszewski <wojc...@oxos.pl> wrote:

Nope, sorry. Do you mean he's not a real guru then? But come to think
about it, he does have this strange glow around him. 

Like this: http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonuff.jpg

Sho Nuff!

[Jason Seifer]

I would just like to chime in and say that it's 100% true that rails
can't scale.

On Dec 5, 6:23 am, Manik Juneja <mjun...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Wojciech,
>
> Can you please connect me to the "Guru".
>
> I need some twitter like "Whales" and some other animals (maybe even a horse since Dr. Nic mentioned it)  for the Rails apps that we have built.
> Atleast our users would love the failure page, when our sites become famous.
>
> I just can't afford the risk of disappointing our users by not having a super sexy failure page. And I am sure, only the "guru" with his photoshop skills and cool tricks can deliver that.
>
> Please! Please! Please!
>
> Manik.
>
> On 05-Dec-2009, at 3:09 PM, Dr Nic Williams wrote:
>
> > I might take up professional horse shoeing now. Damn.
>
> > Cheers
> > Nic
>
> > Mocra -http://mocra.com

> > Blog -http://drnicwilliams.com

> >> For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rails-business?hl=en

[Colin A. Bartlett]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 1:19 PM, Jason Seifer <jse...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I would just like to chime in and say that it's 100% true that rails
> can't scale.

Really? I would never have guessed that would be your assessment.

[Wojciech Kruszewski]

Hey! So you know the guy?

I wonder what he did for life before he started hacking JS scripts and
animated gifs together here in Poland...

--
http://twitter.com/WojciechK

On Dec 8, 8:27 pm, Ben McDonald <b...@hashrocket.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Wojciech Kruszewski <wojci...@oxos.pl>wrote:
>
> > Nope, sorry. Do you mean he's not a real guru then? But come to think
> > about it, he does have this strange glow around him.
>

> Like this:http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonu...
>
> Sho Nuff!

[Aaron Blohowiak]

Perl.

>
> Sho Nuff!

[David Parker]

I've seen the presentation. It's true.

[Jason Seifer]

There's lots of money to be made in perl because you just write scripts and then write them again because no one can read it.

[Wojciech Kruszewski]

It's a language's feature: WOS - Write-Only Syntax

On Dec 8, 8:51 pm, Jason Seifer <jsei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> There's lots of money to be made in perl because you just write scripts
> and then write them again because no one can read it.
>
> Aaron Blohowiak wrote:
> > Perl.
>

> > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Wojciech Kruszewski <wojci...@oxos.pl
> > <mailto:wojci...@oxos.pl>> wrote:
>
> >     Hey! So you know the guy?
>
> >     I wonder what he did for life before he started hacking JS scripts and
> >     animated gifs together here in Poland...
>
> >     --
> >    http://twitter.com/WojciechK
>
> >     On Dec 8, 8:27 pm, Ben McDonald <b...@hashrocket.com

> >     <mailto:b...@hashrocket.com>> wrote:
> >     > On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Wojciech Kruszewski

> >     <wojci...@oxos.pl <mailto:wojci...@oxos.pl>>wrote:

>
> >     > > Nope, sorry. Do you mean he's not a real guru then? But come
> >     to think
> >     > > about it, he does have this strange glow around him.
>
> >     > Like
> >     this:http://mantisfists.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/julius-carry-aka-shonu...
>
> >     > Sho Nuff!
>
> >     --
>
> >     You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> >     Groups "Ruby on Rails meets the business world" group.
> >     To post to this group, send email to
> >     rails-b...@googlegroups.com

> >     <mailto:rails-b...@googlegroups.com>.

> >     To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >     rails-busines...@googlegroups.com

> >     <mailto:rails-business%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

[Ian McFarland]

Yeah, that's the great thing about PERL: It's self-obfuscating.

-Ian

--
Ian McFarland
Principal, VP Technology
Pivotal Labs, Inc.
731 Market Street
Third Floor
San Francisco, CA 94103

email: i...@pivotallabs.com
voice: +1 415 77-PIVOT x 333  (+1 415 777-4868)
fax: +1 415 536 5907
cell: +1 415 548 5282

[Ian McFarland]

This bounced because the attachment was too big. You can find the slides at: http://assets.pivotallabs.com/ARC%20for%20Performance%20Roadshow.pdf (The notes below still apply, of course.)

Cheers,
-Ian

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Ian McFarland <i...@pivotallabs.com> wrote:

Oh, and I promised slides. In the talk I talked a lot about developer performance, but pretty much dismissed the scalability argument in slides 6-12. (Most of the rest of the deck is based on the talk I gave at BizConf, so some of you will seem familiar material.) The slides are attached. I think EY may be making video available, but I'm not sure. (Most of the dismissing was in the spoken part, mind, but I think you can get the gist from what's on the slides.

-Ian

[Wojciech Kruszewski]

Good stuff - thanks!

I liked the argument about pair programming: "And stop whining! You do
it already when you get stuck on something."

I've shared my first impressions about pair programming with jr
developer at: http://www.workingwithrails.com/forums/3-rails-in-the-workplace/topics/896?page=1

On Dec 9, 3:21 am, Ian McFarland <i...@pivotallabs.com> wrote:
> This bounced because the attachment was too big. You can find the slides at:http://assets.pivotallabs.com/ARC%20for%20Performance%20Roadshow.pdf(The
> notes below still apply, of course.)
>
> Cheers,
> -Ian
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Ian McFarland <i...@pivotallabs.com> wrote:
> > Oh, and I promised slides. In the talk I talked a lot about developer
> > performance, but pretty much dismissed the scalability argument in slides
> > 6-12. (Most of the rest of the deck is based on the talk I gave at BizConf,
> > so some of you will seem familiar material.) The slides are attached. I
> > think EY may be making video available, but I'm not sure. (Most of the
> > dismissing was in the spoken part, mind, but I think you can get the gist
> > from what's on the slides.
>
> > -Ian
>

--
http://twitter.com/WojciechK