Where did "CQ" come from?

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE "CQ" ORIGINATED? Currently history is being
rewritten by saying "CQ" is from "Seek You" which isn't true, but the
origin is lost in time, but it was a telegraphic procedure from before
1900.

I am busy writing a book review for "Radio History: Ship Shore" and I
was fascinated by the author's leading me through ship communication
history. Flags, lights, on shore, visual telegraph, and later,
electric telegraph. Fascinating. Visual

One thing that impressed me was the development of telegraph "call
codes" to "wireless call codes", now known as "call signs". From my
knowledge of wire telegraphy, I know that Western Union stations had a
two letter designator. WCC was CC, Camperdown Radio was at first HX.

Telegraph stations would call up like thi using the telegraph call code

HX HX HX BX BX

And they would then close the circuit closer and all the relays and
sounders down the telegraph line would click as they were energized.

When Camperdown (HX) heard his station, he opened the shorting switch,
and all down the telegraph heard this and were ready for whatever
sending was going to happen.

BX BX I HX HX and HX closed the shorting switch. That was how the
wire telegraph worked.

The Wireless or Radio Call Sign and the Flag or Visual Signal Letters
became one and the same at the 1927 Radio Convention held at
Washington, D.C., U.S.A. Before that the Visual Flag signal was
different. Each and every vessel has been assigned an official number
since this first International Code of Signals of 1857 and they are
assigned these numbers to this day "Official Number".

But the first radio telegraphists were wire telegraphists. In the USA
and Canada all coast stations were to accept telegrams from ships in
American or International (Continental) Morse.

Or course this led to confusion. Stations sent their initial calls in
either code, the Coast Station had to determine what code the ship was
using, if they knew the ship was USA or Canadian, they'd be on the
lookout for American Morse but when ships had two letter callsigns
like they did in the first years of ship radio it was always
confusing.

DURLEY CHINE was a Canadian ship, it's Canadian callsign was VDY, and
he approached Halifax harbor, but unluckily for him the British Red
Cross Hospital Ship STEPHANO callsign MDY was exchanging traffic with
HX. If VDY dropped the V as was common practice, no one would be sure
if it was MDY or VDY calling. Fortunately the Sparks on DURLEY CHINE
got smart and called HX in American Morse and sent his traffic. This
worked but there was a problem. He later received a message from
Camperdown (HX): On: arrival, the captain and the wireless operator
were to report to Naval Headquarters in the Dockyard complete with the
radio log.

The letter Y in the landline code was a two-character code consisting
of two dots each. The letter Y in the radio code is a dash, dot, and
two dashes. The letters V and D are the same in both codes. Therefore,
Sprack’s VDY to the many Navy telegraph operators listening should
have sounded like a VDII. The letter I in the radio code is two dots.
There being only three letter call signs in use and the practice of
dropping the prefix meant that the Navy,somehow, copied Sprack’s call
as VDI and not VDY or VDII. The problem was that VDI was the call
assigned to the Icebreaker EARL GREY that had recently been sold to
Russia, and had left for delivery sometime before this incident. The
Navy immediately went into a big flap, and went chasing off to find
the EARL GREY, and try to ascertain the reason for her return.

Materia from Spud Roscoe's excellent book "RADIO HISTORY - SHIP SHORE"
available at Amazon and other fine book sellers.
https://amzn.to/463hHEr

73
DR

[Jerry Proc]

Hi David,

Here is what I have on CQ:

CQD was one of the first Morse code distress signals adopted for radio use. The Marconi Marine Communication Company began using it in 1904. Although used worldwide by Marconi operators, CQD was never adopted as an international standard since it could be mistaken for a general call "CQ" if the reception was poor. By 1908, CQD had largely been supplanted by SOS, a simpler code. In 1912, RMS Titanic radio operator Jack Phillips initially sent "CQD," which was still commonly used by British ships. Harold Bride, the junior radio operator, jokingly suggested using the new code, "SOS." Thinking it might be the only time he would get to use it, Phillips began to alternate between the two.

Contrary to popular belief, CQD does not stand for "Come Quick, Danger" or "Come Quickly: Distress." Rather, it combines the call "CQ"—a general call to all stations stemming from the French word sécurité-with "D" for "distress."

*****

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[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Thank you very much, Jerry. 

Yes, I have the information on CQD and your information is accurate but what I'm asking is about "CQ": Where did it come from? 

As you know,  CQ is an unrestricted general call, as opposed to "CP" which is a restricted call.

CP WAUS DE WNDW QTC K

WAUS is "All USA SHIPS.

People are rewriting history and saying CQ comes from "Seek You" which isn't so.

It's a ham radio back formation of applying a improbable answer to a mystery. 

73 

DR 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radio-officers/64f8dc88.170a0220.848d7.604aSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN%40gmr-mx.google.com.

[spud roscoe]

I believe CQ was a landline call alerting those on the line of a time signal to follow.

 

Spud

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radio-officers/CADO5RbjG3y7TKSkk8y7yVURNO0quz1jCrqTZe-qqVEvcjEn6tA%40mail.gmail.com.

 

[spud roscoe]

Dave, Camperdown was not HX. The landline call for Camperdown was CD. HX was the wireless call.

 

Spud VE1BC

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: D.J.J. Ring, Jr.
Sent: September 6, 2023 4:42 PM
To: Radio Officers Google Group
Subject: [Radio Officers, &c] Where did "CQ" come from?

 

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE "CQ" ORIGINATED? Currently history is being

[Dr Jim Kennedy]

I am sure you folks have seen this:

The CQ call was^[2] originally used by landline telegraphy operators in the United Kingdom. French was, and still is, the official language for international postal services,^[3] and the word sécurité was used to mean "safety" or "pay attention". It is still used in this sense in international telecommunications.^[4][5] The letters CQ, when pronounced in French, resemble the first two syllables of sécurité, and were therefore used as shorthand for the word. It sounds also like the French "c'est qui?", which means "who's there?". In English-speaking countries, the origin of the abbreviation was popularly changed to the phrase "seek you" or, later, when used in the CQD distress call, "Calling all distress".

CQ was adopted by the Marconi Company in 1904 for use in wireless telegraphy by spark-gap transmitter, and was adopted internationally at the 1912 London International Radiotelegraph Convention, and is still used.^[6]

A variant of the CQ call, CQD, was the first code used as a distress signal. It was proposed by the Marconi Company and adopted in 1904, but was replaced between 1906 and 1908 by the SOS code. When the Titanic sank in 1912, it initially transmitted the distress call "CQD DE MGY" (with "MGY" being the ship's call sign). Titanic's radio operator subsequently alternated between SOS and CQD calls afterwards.^[7]

73, Doc - K2PHD

Dr. Jim Kennedy

 

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 6, 2023, at 3:42 PM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. <n1...@arrl.net> wrote:

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE "CQ" ORIGINATED? Currently history is being

[Radio KH6O]

I was browsing the communications shelves at a research library and came across a handbook on landline telegraphy. It was published in the early 1900s. It stated that CQ was the preparatory prosign sent before the time signal countdown. 

The nationwide establishment of the standard time zones and this landline time signal transmitted to all railroad stations was extremely important -- it helped solve the problem of head-on railroad collisions.

Prior to the creation of standard time zones, each community across the country set its local time according to Local Apparent Solar Time using a precision optical device. An example of how this could lead to a train collision is this: Two towns 15 miles apart would have clocks, set by solar time, that would differ by 4 minutes. If two train conductors set their time pieces at those two towns, you can see how this could lead to disaster.

For more on how the railroad companies succeeded in the creation of standard time zones please see: Selling the True Time -- Nineteenth-Century Timekeeping in American, by Ian R. Bartky. 

73,

Jeff KH6O

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

I am busy writing a book review for "Radio History: Ship Shore" and I
was fascinated by the author's leading me through ship communication

history. Flags, lights, visual telegraph, and later, electric
telegraph, submarine bells. Fascinating.

Here is some information reprinted from this comprehensive history of
ship communications history, from visual signals, to spark and
continuous wave radio.

One thing that impressed me was the development of telegraph "call

codes" to "wireless call codes", now known as "call signs". I know
that Marconi stations had a two letter designator: South Wellfleet
Cape Cod was CC, Camperdown, Nova Scotia was HX (for Halifax) on the
radio, then MHX when Marconi stations all added the prefix M to their
calls, HX became MHX, CC “Cape Cod” became MCC. Sable Island, SD
became MSD, Cape Sable SB became MSB. Camperdown went through the
following calls, HX, MHX, VAV and VCS.


Marconi radio station Camperdown, Nova Scotia, Canada, had callsigns
HX (for Halifax), Marconi MHX and Canadian VCS over it’s long life.
Marconi built the station specifically to relay messages from their
strategically located (high traffic) stations at Sable Island callsign
SD (Marconi MSD, Canadian VCT) and Cape Sable SB, (Marconi MSB.
Canadian VCU) and any message received by VCS directly from a ship. SD
and SB had excellent coverage for working ships at sea. Moreover,
these two stations were so equipped so they could be working ships on
another wavelength and still communicate with Camperdown with another
spark transmitter. Lots of messages (and revenue) went down the
telegraph line to Halifax “AX” for Marconi on that dedicated landline.


Before WWI, the operators at Camperdown (and all USA and Canadian
coastal radio stations) had to be proficient in both the radio and
landline codes. There is a pronounced difference, not only in the
characters of the two distinct codes, but for anyone not familiar with
either or the other the landline was a “clickety click” and the radio
a “buzz buzz”.


When Canada was assigned the VAA-VGZ call block in 1912, Camperdown
was assigned the VCS call sign and the old MHX Marconi call sign went
to Great Britain where it remains assigned to this day. But that
didn’t mean in these wild wooly days of radio that Camperdown stopped
using MHX, no they continued to use MHX even after VCS was assigned to
them and VCS was published in the official call sign books.

The Marconi Company closed the Camperdown Radio station on April 4th,
1926. The VCS call sign became redundant, at which time Chebucto Head
D/F (Direction Finding) station VAV was upgraded to a full coastal
radio station and D/F station.


Telegraph stations would call up like this using the telegraph call
code: CD CD CD AX AX (Halifax calls Camperdown) The answering station

would then close the circuit closer and all the relays and sounders
down the telegraph line would click as they were energized.

When wire telegraph station Camperdown (CD) heard his station call, he

opened the shorting switch, and all down the telegraph heard this and

were ready for whatever sending was going to happen. He sent: AX AX I
CD CD. CD closed the shorting switch and waited for Halifax (AX) to
answer. That was how the wire telegraph worked.

The Wireless or Radio Call Sign and the Flag or Visual Signal Letters
became one and the same at the 1927 Radio Convention held at
Washington, D.C., U.S.A. Before that the Visual Flag signal was
different. Each and every vessel has been assigned an official number

ever since the first International Code of Signals in 1857 even to
this day. This "Official Number" always stays with the hull, even if
the ship changes it’s name or it’s national registry flag so it can be
use to follow a ship’s history.


The first radio telegraphists were wire telegraphists. In the USA and

Canada all coast stations were to accept telegrams from ships in
American or International (Continental) Morse. Or course this led to
confusion. Stations sent their initial calls in either code, the Coast
Station had to determine what code the ship was using, if they knew
the ship was USA or Canadian, they'd be on the lookout for American
Morse but when ships had two letter callsigns like they did in the
first years of ship radio it was always confusing.

At the start of WWI in 1914, the effects of the 1912 International
Radio Convention were not in full swing. The operators continued the
practice of dropping the first letter or prefix of their call signs
and just using the two-letter suffix. Therefore, on the air Camperdown
remained HX, South Wellfleet Cape Cod, CC, Sable Island, SD, and so
on.


Not only this, but they were still separating their calls with the
letter V rather than DE. The separation of call signs, when making a
call was changed to DE around this time. DE was the separation signal
until radiotelegraph terminated. To make things even more confusing,
Camperdown was still using the MHX call as well at this time even
though it had been assigned VCS. It was around 1914, that Canadian
ship, DURLEY CHINE with Canadian call sign VDY entered Halifax harbor,
and unluckily for the wireless operator, the British Red Cross

Hospital Ship STEPHANO callsign MDY was exchanging traffic with

Camperdown MHX. If DURLEY CHINE/VDY dropped the prefix V as was common
practice, no one would be sure if it was MDY or VDY calling. HX V DY
just wouldn’t work of course this was the reason three letter ship
call signs were assigned. Later around 1920, four character callsigns
for ships began to be assigned, with three letter callsigns being
reserved for broadcast radio stations, and Morse code ship stations
and aviation land based radio stations (WEAL – Eastern Airline NYC).
Aircraft Morse stations were issued five character callsigns (KHAQQ
was Amelia Earhart’s aircraft).


Fortunately the Sparks on DURLEY CHINE got smart and called Camperdown

HX in American Morse and sent his traffic. This worked but there was a

problem: He later received a message from Camperdown (MHX): ON
ARRIVAL, BOTH CAPTAIN AND THE WIRELESS OPERATOR REPORT TO NAVAL
HEADQUARTERS HALIFAX DOCKYARD COMPLETE WITH THE RADIO LOG. That
message certainly must have made the radio operator shake with
anticipation.

The letter Y in the landline code was a two-character code consisting
of two dots each. The letter Y in the radio code is a dash, dot, and
two dashes. The letters V and D are the same in both codes. Therefore,

DURLEY CHINE's VDY to the many Navy telegraph operators listening

should have sounded like a VDII. The letter I in the radio code is two
dots. There being only three letter call signs in use and the practice

of dropping the prefix meant that the Navy,somehow, copied DURLEY
CHINE's call as VDI and not VDY or VDII. The problem was that VDI was

the call assigned to the Icebreaker EARL GREY that had recently been
sold to Russia, and had left for delivery sometime before this
incident. The Navy immediately went into a big flap, and went chasing

off to find the EARL GREY, and try to ascertain the reason for the
icebreakers return to Halifax.


In other words, when DURLEY CHINE called Camperdown, it would have
been HX V DY (or MHX V VDY) rather than VCS DE VDY terminated with the
letter K (the invitation to transmit). By the way these stations had
to have their receivers switched off while transmitting. There was no
QSK on spark ships.


Material from Spud Roscoe's excellent book "RADIO HISTORY - SHIP

SHORE" available at Amazon and other fine book sellers.
https://amzn.to/463hHEr

=30=

[Jerry Proc]

On a TV show about TIME, I heard that the railroads had some 350 time zones in the US before the adoption of standard time zones for the  reasons cited below.

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[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

On Wed, Sep 6, 2023, 5:07 PM spud roscoe <spudr...@outlook.com> wrote:

I believe CQ was a landline call alerting those on the line of a time signal to follow.

Spud

Yes, that's what I've always heard and read. 

But now people are engaging in historical negationism, a form of historical revisionism. Taking a new story and applying it to years ago history as if it was true. 

People are now saying "CQ" came from "C'est qui" - French for "Who is it!" but of course this makes no sense if CQ is used as it is to mean "Calling All Stations" as it has been for over a  century. They also are saying that it means "Seek You!" which I blame the radio amateurs for because that's the way they use "CQ". As you can tell, I dislike historical revisionism. 

Forty years ago I asked those I knew who had great familiarity with radio history as professional radio telegraphers, Bob SCHRADER, W6BNB who wrote "Electronic Communication", was a radio officer for Dollar Lines in the 1930s, taught at United States Merchant Marine Academy, Kings Point, NY during WWII and Bob Mcgraw, W2LYH, who was Chief Engineer of Radio Corporation of America's huge "Radio Central" at Rocky Point on northeast Long Island with receiving facilities at Riverhead, Long Island which is between the two forks of the eastern end of Long Island. See https://spectrum.ieee.org/history-of-rca-radio-central

I heard absolutely nothing about these theories back then as they have just appeared promulgated as they are by historical revisionists who offer no citations for their assertions. 

73 

DR 

 

73 

[spud roscoe]

It is crazy Dave the way things get twisted.

 

Spud

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: D.J.J. Ring, Jr.
Sent: September 7, 2023 12:41 PM
To: Radio Officers Google Group
Subject: Re: [Radio Officers, &c] Where did "CQ" come from?

 

On Wed, Sep 6, 2023, 5:07 PM spud roscoe <spudr...@outlook.com> wrote:

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[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

The 20 volume Oxford English Dictionary only has it in an entry for
"C.Q.D." [sic] saying it is an "initialism" and the first use they
have of it was in 1909.
OED's earliest evidence for C.Q.D. is from 1909, in Daily Chronicle.
C.Q.D. is formed within English, as an initialism.

At least the OED wasn't telling us it was "Seek You" or "C'est quoi"
or conflating it with mention that the International Postal Union uses
French as a working language, and that CQ comes from Securite. What
hog wash!

DR

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Done in by CQ = New York Times

Opinion

LETTER

A Newspaper Writer Done In by ‘CQ’

April 5, 2017

• Share full article

“Etaoin shrdlu” lived on, and died with, the unusual Linotype keyboard, the first three columns of which were e-t-a-o-i-n, s-h-r-d-l-u, c-m-f-w-y-p (lowercase on the left, uppercase on the right).Credit...Carl T. Gossett Jr./The New York TimesTo the Editor:

Re “No Reader Should Have to See This,” by David W. Dunlap (Inside The Times, March 27):

Many years ago I was done in by “cq,” the newspaper abbreviation that a reporter uses to assure an editor that although a word might seem to be misspelled or misused, it really isn’t.

I wrote a story for The Los Angeles Times that referred to Pierre Bellocq, the cartoonist for The Daily Racing Form. The editor, thinking I was cq-ing something, dutifully deleted the “cq.” Hence, Pierre’s last name came out incorrectly as Bello.

There would have been only one defense: I should have cq’d the cq.

BILL CHRISTINE
REDONDO BEACH, CALIF.

NEW

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For more stories, return to home.

A version of this article appears in print on April 6, 2017, Section A, Page 26 of the New York edition with the headline: A Writer Done In by ‘CQ’

[spud roscoe]

1909 ?

 

Marconi assigned CQD prior to 1909. It was replaced with SOS around then.

 

Spud

 

 

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: D.J.J. Ring, Jr.
Sent: September 7, 2023 2:02 PM
To: radio-o...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Radio Officers, &c] Where did "CQ" come from?

 

The 20 volume Oxford English Dictionary only has it in an entry for

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[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 1:45 PM spud roscoe <spudr...@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> 1909 ?
>
>
>
> Marconi assigned CQD prior to 1909. It was replaced with SOS around then.
>
>
>
> Spud

That's just the English Oxford English Dictionary, obviously they
don't read the ITU documents.

One of the reasons it might be so difficult to find is that the ITU
initially didn't cover privately owned telegraph and all the UK lines
were private.
At the next convention - was it Vienna? They changed the rules so that
United Kingdom could join.

The only thing I've found in those documents is settlement and
accounting matters, not operational. procedures.

It's like trying to find the HF calling frequencies that were used
prior to WWII. Very difficult to find, I think it took me 30 years to
find them.

At one time ships and coastal stations had one frequency on each of
the HF bands that was simplex, like 500 kHz where ships called and
coast stations answered.

It's like using the Internet today to find the 1980 ITU calling
channels - or even worse the calling channels prior to 1978 I believe
when they were reorganized and before 1978 - and you'd remember, coast
stations scanned a band of frequencies, 8 MHz scan included 8364 kHz
the lifeboat SOS frequency.

Thinking back, I posted the simplex HF frequencies that I got from my
1936 Bern Book (ITU).

Here they are:

I've listed ALL the transmitter frequencies of KPH and WBL below but
it's tiresome, so I will just insert as verification, which stations
have these simplex calling frequencies in this 1936 ITU Bern (Green)
Book. There's more simplex calling frequencies, so the puzzle is only
partially solved, I think the others are aircraft radiotelegraphy. 4
MHz seems only to have been used "inland" and on the Great Lakes at
the time. (If I remember correctly, 6 Mc/s was previously assigned
exclusively to aircraft radiotelegraphy and was NOT a marine
radiotelegraph band before 1950, perhaps until the time that aircraft
no longer used radio telegraphy around the middle 1950s.)

WBF, HINGHAM, MA - Tropical Radio Telegraph
WCC, CHATHAM, MA -
WBL BUFFALO, NY - RCA Radio Marine Corporation of America.
WGO CHICAGO, IL - RCA Radio Marine Corporation of America.
KOK CLEARWATER, CA - Mackay Radio (later ITT/Mackay)
KSM CYPRUS, CA - Globe Wireless
WRL DULUTH, MN - RCA Radio Marine Corporation of America.
KSA EDMONDS, WA - Globe Wireless
KFT EVERETT, WA - Pacific Communication Co.
WPN GARDEN CITY, NY (10 miles due east of Queens, NY below Kings
Point, and above Long Beach, NY - Globe Wireless operated HF only.
WAX HIALEAH, FL, (later Ojus, FL) Tropical Radio Telegraph
KEK, HILLSBORO, OR - Mackay Radio
WMR, JUPITER, FL - Mackay Radio
WNN, MOBILE, AL - Tropical Radio Telegraph
KTK, MUSSEL ROCK, CA - Globe Wireless
WNU, NEW ORLEANS, LA - Tropical Radio
KFS, PALO ALTO, CA - Mackay Radio
WSL, SAYVILLE, NY - Mackay Radio
KPE, SEATTLE, WA - City of Seattle, Harbor Dept.
KKB, SHERWOOD, OR - Globe Wireless
KSE, TORRENCE, CA - RCA Radio Marine Corporation of America.
WSC, TUCKERTON, NJ - RCA Radio Marine Corporation of America.
WCY, WEST DOVER, OH - RCA Radio Marine Corporation of America.(on Lake
Erie, just west Cleveland, Ohio but not as far as Toledo, Ohio.)

I added the 2070 kc/s fundamental to produce the bands from 2 MHz to
16 Mc/s (now MHz) and we have an accurate list of the USA HF simplex
calling frequencies, ships called here and coast stations also
answered here.

2070 - harmonic base frequency.
4140 WBL, WAX, WGO, WBF, WNN, WNU,
6210 WCC, KPH, KSA, KSM, WGO, WPN, KEK, KEK, WBF, KTK, WSL, KKB, WCY,
8280 KPH, KSA, WBL, WCC, WGO, KOK, KSM, WRL, KFT, WPN, WAX, WBF, WMR,
WNN, KTK, WNU, KFS, WSL, KPE, KKB, KSE, WSC, WCY,
12420 KSM, KPH, KSA, WCC, WPN, WBF, KTK, KFS, WSL, KPE, KKB, KSE, WSC,
16560 KPH, WCC, KSM, KSA, KOK, WPN, WAX, KEK, WBF, WMR, WNN, KTK, WNU,
KFS, WSL, KPE, KKB, KSE, WSC,

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

SIMPLEX CALLING AND ANSWERING ON HF PRIOR TO 1950s.
From Ben Russell, N6SL (SK)

During WW2 U.S. Merchant ships used multiples of 4140 for HF calling.
4140, 8280, 12420, 16560 KHz.
Those were Crystal controlled on most rigs and the HF working frequency was
a multiple of 4160, 8320 etc.

At the end of the war when we could QSO coast stations I frequently
used a working frequency of 8300 with the VFO.. The QRM on 8280 was
tremendous when ships first returned to the air.
These frequencies were used between 1945 and 1950..

73, Ben Russell N6SL

Ben's information lines up exactly with what I just posted, 4140,
8380, 14,240, 16560 kc/s. Oh, to have a memory like Ben Russell had!
I can't even remember the combination to my padlock on my storage
shed.

73
DR

[Bob Yerkes]

please remove me from the group. Sorry too much garbage

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 11:43 AM D.J.J. Ring, Jr. <n1...@arrl.net> wrote:

Bob Yerkes, Please no off topic posts.

Your post is certainly welcome but hijacking a message thread is NOT
the way to do it.

Simply write a new message using "compose", address the message to
radio-o...@googlegroups.com and in the Subject line put the
subject, then in the text area put your request and any other
information.

Some people use email clients and if they're not interested in the
topic, they simply select "Ignore Thread" and they will never see your
request.

Please send a new message as I explained.

I'm deleting your message from the message archive because it doesn't
belong in this message thread.

73
DR

On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 2:17 PM Bob Yerkes
<bob.mcclel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> At the risk of trying to change the subject towards historical topics which are actually still relevant in 2023, here is a good conceptual question from Kaufman's Q and A for historic FCC element VI. Hope some of the group will try this out and attempt to answer:
>
> "A discharged storage battery of three cells connected in series has an open circuit voltage of 1.8 v. per cell and an internal resistance of 0.1 ohm per cell. What potential is necessary to produce an initial charging rate of 10 amperes ?"
>
> Bob K6PQJ
> retired radio officer/ETO

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[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Please do it yourself, Bob.  If I let everyone post off topic posts the list would be a mess.   I'm not having that, and I'm not you servant or slave. Unsubscribe yourself.

73

DR

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[David G. Bayliss (Hotmail)]

CQ - CQD - SOS.  Nothing new.  A reference quoting an earlier source.

Please follow the article link if the attached image is not legible.

David Bayliss

Australia

Australasian Radio Relay League. Vol. 4 (No. 28, 24 October 1924). The wireless weekly : the hundred per cent Australian radio journal, p.16. (Retrieved September 8, 2023, from  http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-632150183)

[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

Yes, again a citation referencing Marconi creating CQD from CQ the telegraph signal for ALL STATIONS and D for Distress.

I also heard from Rich W2VU publisher of "CQ Amateur Radio" magazine:

David,

I'm afraid I don't have an authoritative source, but I do agree with you that it did not derive from "seek you" or "c'est quoi". One additional story I've heard (but can't verify) is that it originated from the French "securité" which was used in radio's early days as a general call to broadcast a safety alert or similar. If the group you list below all agree on its origin in wire telegraphy in the UK, who am I to disagree? They are probably right. Unless they're not... At this point in time, I don't think it's possible to cite its origin with certainty; best we can do is say "most likely..." Same deal with the origin of "ham" as a nickname for radio amateurs.

Tnx,

Rich, W2VU 

Thank you, David for the information. 

73 

DR 

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[D.J.J. Ring, Jr.]

I received this from Bill Burns a submarine cable expert historian.

73

DR



---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Bill Burns <bi...@ftldesign.com>
Date: Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [MorseCode] DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE "CQ" ORIGINATED?
To: A list for telegraph instrument collectors <mors...@mailman.qth.net>



This article from 1895 about the International Telegraph Bureau in
Berne describes the meaning of CQ for the destination code on undersea
cables as "send to all stations". From the context this code had
obviously been in use for quite a while in the cable industry, and was
adopted years later to have a similar meaning for radio transmissions.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5P1GAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA45

"Berne is really the center of everything telegraphic, and "CQ," in
the nomenclature of telegraphy, is the circumference of everything.
Every city in the world has its code, recognized by Berne and known
everywhere. Thus "LN" means London, "NY" New York, "BM," Bombay, "SZ"
Suez, "CT" Calcutta, "MV" Monte Video, and so on. A message from Berne
simply addressed "IQ" would quickly find its way to Iquique, away over
in Chili. "CQ" means "all stations," and a telegram sent from Berne
telling, perhaps, of an interruption of communication with Australia
by reason of an earthquake in Java, addressed simply "C Q," would be
passed from one government and telegraph company to another, and from
centre to centre, until inside of twenty-four hours it would reach
every office of importance in the world."

As DR notes below, there are references to its having originated with
the Electric Telegraph Company in England. Here's a mention from
1884:

https://books.google.com/books?id=n65bAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA110&dq=%22cq%22

"When the Electric Telegraph Company agreed to adopt the international
alphabet, notice was given to CQ (all stations) to prepare for the
change, and from a fixed date to abandon the one and adopt the other."

I have not yet found a source for this statement, nor any earlier mention of CQ.

Bill

On 07-Sep-23 5:57 PM, D.J.J. Ring, Jr. wrote:


Nonsense, CQ was never used in the sense of "seeking" except in
amateur radio, so it wouldn't have come from a "sound alike" of Seek
You. Also the use of "CP" which is a restricted call, ruins that
theory.- unless someone wants to propose that CP came from "SEEP" or
some other foolishness.

It is and has been a general call to "All Stations" CQ, whereas
"Restricted call" is CP. This at least is in the International
Telecommunications Publications
That is certain.

As to where the letters chosen came from is subject to conjecture, 40
or 50 years ago when I first asked the best answer I got was "it came
from English telegraph procedure, it preceded the time signal sent out
from Greenwich Observatory starting in 1852. From there the trail
gets confused, some say the time signals were carried over the lines
of the Electric Telegraph Company, which was founded by Sir William
Fothergill Cooke and John Lewis Ricardo in 1846.

Most of the Radiotelegraphy practice has disappeared from the
Internet, after all, it's been 23 years since it was current.

But I did find this: The Direct Printing Radiotelegraphy procedure is
the closest to the Wireless Telegraphy (WT) procedure used on Spark
and CW and MCW except they've eliminated the SOS and substituted
MAYDAY understandable since Direct Printing Radiotelgraphy isn't
copied by ear but by machine so there's no need of three dots three
long dashes three dots.

Here it is.

(i) In radiotelephony, the message referred to in paragraph (h) of
this section consists of:

(1) The distress signal MAYDAY;

(2) The call “Hello all stations” or CQ (spoken as CHARLIE QUEBEC)
spoken three times;

(3) The words THIS IS (or DE spoken as DELTA ECHO in the case of
language difficulties);

(4) The call sign or other identification of the station sending the message;

(5) The time when the distress situation has ceased;

(6) The name and call sign of the mobile station which was in distress;

(7) The words SEELONCE FEENEE pronounced as the French words “silence fini”

(j) In direct-printing telegraphy, the message referred to in
paragraph (h) of this section consists of:

(1) The distress signal MAYDAY;

(2) The call CQ;

(3) The word DE;

(4) The call sign or other identification of the station sending the message;

(5) The time when distress situation has ceased;

(6) The name and call sign of the mobile station which was in distress; and

(7) The words SILENCE FINI.


73


DR



On Thu, Sep 7, 2023 at 3:30 PM Chris R. NW6V <chri...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> No David, I'm one of those who say "seek you" lacking a more plausible source. I'll be interested to see what folks say.

>
> On Thu, Sep 7, 2023, 11:38 D.J.J. Ring, Jr. <n1...@arrl.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE "CQ" ORIGINATED? Currently history is being
>> rewritten by saying "CQ" is from "Seek You" which isn't true, but the
>> origin is lost in time, but it was a telegraphic procedure from before 1900.
>>

>> 40 years ago and still currently by the old timers I was told CQ was a
>> procedural signal that was sent prior to the sending of the Time
>> Signal
>>
>> Does anyone know if this information is in Some early telegraph
>> procedures in South Australia / by M.J. Gooley?
>>
>> 73
>> DR


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