If the IWW ran Chernobyl there would still be accidents.

[Shimmy Shammy]

If the IWW ran a strip mine it would still be destructive. If the
Wobblies ran the world's largest lumber mill (Pacific Lumber's) they
would still need to clearcut to achieve full utilization of that mill.
If they did not continue exploiting natural resources in the most
expedient and efficient manner they would cease to be competitive with
their more capitalistic counterparts.
If the wobblies ran Monsanto the genetically engineered crops would
still pose unknown risks (and possibly known but not revealed risks as
is currently the case) and the pesticide and herbicide production and
use would still be toxic. If the IWW ran Union Carbide the Bhopal
disaster still would have happened.
It could be that factories which put the workers and the environment
ahead of the market demand might find it harder to stay into business.
If a wobbly asks, "Would you like fries with that?" and doesn't wear a
smile, the meal just wouldn't taste as good.

[Laure]

Workers' control in and of itself does not help. There are other factors
even more important.

Firstly, workers' control in capitalist society may have its limitations.
For example, will the workers have to compete on the market with other firms
which have lower labour costs and standards and will consumers be willing to
pay more money to buy collectively owned goods? If the firm deals with
production, this may depend on whether their may market are consumers or
other businesses. Some collectively run firms get around this, others
cannot.

Secondly, industries that are harmful to the environment or other humans.
Only people who are highly aware AND who have alternatives to living will
choose to close such industries. Again, in the situation that we still have
a capitalist society, few people would decide to close their factories and
possibly put themselves out of work.

In short, the problem is that workers' control in and of itself is not the
main goal and that the impact of industry, over-consumption and work need to
take a higher precedence in debates. People who espouse the retention of
exploitative industries haven't developed any green analysis yet. They are
probabilty a small but vocal minority amongst people like wobblies but they
are half- ass reformers.

L.

[Shimmy Shammy]

The IWW is a stale and mostly useless relic tired leftist "anarchism".
Perhaps, back in the day, when people were just getting over the idea
that the earth was round and before the environmental degradation was
truly appreciated, the wobblies had a leg to stand on. Nowadays they
seem to be techno-apologists for all sorts of industrial crimes against
nature and couldn't really change or challenge anything with their
platform positions anyhow. It's sad really. I invited some wobblies
to debate on this group (and I suspect they get the new-post emails)
but what can they say and, more to the point, why should they say it?
They can just work in their little shops and ignore where their tools
really came from as they print their manifestoes (on clear-cut pulp) to
ensure that the next generation of anarchists will be good little
workers and tow the part line. I'm sure Marx would be proud.

[Laure]

I wouldn't be so judgemental; I know different kinds of people in the IWW
and some are committed ecologists - which is not the same as a primitivist,
but also certainly not the same as someone devoid of any environmental
awareness.

Yes there are technoapologists in the movement. My contact with it is
limited so I cannot say what percent of people in it are technoapologists
but if technoapologists now outweighed the side with some fundamental
environmental awareness, I'd be surprised.

I think there's a over-simplified and false connection here between leftist
anarchists and technoapologists because, although it may be true that many
leftist anarchists are technoapologists, these ideas of protectionist
centralism and mass revolutionary movements taking executive control do not
presuppose maintaining harmful levels of industrialization, nor does
anarcho-syndicalism. Some anarcho-syndicalists have even made serious
critiques of industrial civilization, although if you are from the US,
Canada or UK scenes, I suppose you do see a large segment of
technoapologists.