my rabbit is losing weight

[akonsu]

hello,

i have a 9 year old netherland dwarf rabbit. he has e-cuniculi, and we
give him panacur for it. he had e-cuniculi for long time now. in
addition, he has been losig weight gradually for about a year or so,
but during the last month he got really skinny. his appetite is very
good, he eats everything, although, maybe not as much hay as he used
to. but nevertheless he is losing weight and is getting weak. does
anyone know what can be done to at least slow down his getting weaker?
has anyone seen this?
thanks!

konstantin

[cottontail]

Hi Konstantin,

E-cuniculi is awful. Maybe your rabbit has a kidney problem? I've read
that EC usually affects kidney and brain (central nervous system)
cells.

I had a bunny who recently lost a battle with suspected EC. She got
really skinny. I couldn't save her, but when one of her sisters got
ill, I managed to save her with lots of herbs I grow in my community
garden plot. She made a full recovery!

Here are the herbs that might help boost your bunny's immune system:
lemon balm, mint, oregano, thyme, basil, ginger, garlic, rosemary, and
if I think of some more, I'll post here again. Fresh herbs are the
best, I think, because they love eating them. As for garlic, they love
the peels and stems.

Another thing, if you can get an adult rabbit food (timothy based)
that is fiber-rich and low in fat and protein, I recommend it. I
recently switched to Sweet Meadow Adult Rabbit Food, which has been
great for our rabbits. (I'm not affiliated to Sweet Meadow Farm in any
way)

Wish your bunny well.

T.

[Ros]

Hi Konstantin

I'm sorry to read that your bunny has EC and that he's become thinner
and weaker.

You say that he had Panacur. Did he have a full 28-day course? Has
it been repeated at all since the first course was given? If the
answer to either of these questions is 'no' then I strongly suggest
you get Panacur again and give him a full 28 day course to be sure you
have got the parasite out of his system for the time being. If you
live in the UK as I do, then there is an alternative that is still
based on Fenbendazole, but that rabbits in some areas seem to do
better with (so perhaps there is some regional variation in the EC
parasites) and that's Lapizole. That also should be given for 28
days.

Are you absolutely certain that this problem is stemming from EC? Is
there any other cause you may not have discovered? When he was first
diagnosed, did he have headtilt, or if not, what were the symptoms
that led you to the EC diagnosis?

I'm sorry for all the questions, but trying to understand what is
going on with your bunny.

Best wishes to you and to him

Ros

[cottontail]

P.S. Some of the herbs I mentioned above are also ant-hemic and anti-
parasitic, and have the natural ability to expel parasites -
especially the mint family herbs. Other herbs I forgot to mention are
parsley, chamomile (our rabbits love eating the once brewed organic
chamomile tea in teabags), and clove (I mix a little powder to the
pellets with fresh pineapple juice and dry it as cookies for them).
Fresh dandelion greens are also excellent. But if your bunny is new to
herbs, it's always a good idea to go slow, and introduce one at a
time. Some of our rabbits voluntarily eat certain herbs when they're
sick. Parsley and carrot tops (greens) are always their first choice.
I was surprised one of them even ate rosemary. I suppose herbal remedy
isn't for everyone, but let me know if you have any questions. :)

Another thing you might want to try is Prozyme, which is a multi-
enzyme powder for pets, and it helps the digestive system. I've used
it for aging rabbits. If you want a more natural way, try a little
fresh pineapple chunk (1/2" cube) weekly. Healthy digestive system is
essential to be a happy bunny, imo.

xoxoxo!
T.

[Ros]

I'm sorry Cottontail, I don't want to get into an argument here, and
I'm sure your bunnies love those herbs and are doing very well on such
a healthy diet. However, I cannot sit here and not comment that herbs
are **not** strong enough to expel encephalitozoon cuniculii from a
rabbit's system. The only effective treatment is Fenbendazole in the
form of Panacur or Lapizole.

If your rabbit was ill and recovered using your herbal treatment then
it can't have been EC that was making him ill.

Ros

[cottontail]

Oh you don't need to apologize, Ros :) Everyone is entitled to their
opinions and beliefs. You're probably right about most herbs not
strong enough for EC. I'm using herbs more as an prevention rather
than treatment for the most part. One of our recent cases was mild,
and she did went under a vigorous herbal AB treatment for a few weeks.
Nothing is simple as I might make it sound here.

According to the previous posts Konstantin made in another rabbit
forum (if you click on *view profile* next to his handle, you'll see
them), he has been seeing the vet several times on his rabbit's
condition, already using main-stream medication known to be effective
for EC. I didn't see any harm in letting him know about some immune
strengthening herbs. Sorry, I should have made things a bit more
clear. Thanks for your concerns :)

Peace,
T.

[akonsu]

hi!

Cottontail, Ros, thanks a lot for your help. yes, we went through all
the medications we could find for him, and they helped. he did have a
head tilt in the beginning. and he had blood tests done and they did
find EC. he is just old and it seems that in addition to EC he is
having kidney poblems although i am not a specialist i am just
guessing. so giving him herbs would definitely help. at least help him
live a bit longer. we currently live in ohio, in usa and the best vets
we could find here know a little about rabbits. we used to live in
seattle where we went to the best specialist i ever knew, Dr Barbara
Deeb who as i heard developed the test for EC that they use now here
in US. i wish she was still alive and could see our rabbit...

thaks again
konstantin

[akonsu]

one more question: do you know whether it is ok to keep him on panacur
all the time? our vet does not know... the medication does not get rid
of the problem, but it seems to alleviate it, and he feels a bit
better on it.

thanks
konstantin

[Ros]

I'm glad I didn't offend you - that wasn't my intention.

I do use herbs and feel that they are a very useful tool and certainly
something that should be used more than they are. Just that in the
case of EC, I feel they can make a good supporting therapy but that
with such a nasty bug, the big guns in chemical form need to be
wheeled in

Ros :0)

[cottontail]

I don't know if it's safe to keep him on Panacur continuously. hmm...
I've read that rabbits have fast metabolism, so most medication exits
their body pretty quickly. Maybe you can contact the HRS recommended
vets listed here: http://www.ohare.org/vets.htm (perhaps you have
already :)

In addition to Panacur, I highly recommend growing fresh thyme for
your rabbit. It has an anthelmintic (vermicide) property, which "kills
a number of parasites including worms and protozoa found in the gut or
elsewhere, including some found in the liver, spinal and cranial
fluids." As a matter of fact, Sophie, one of our female buns, started
to recover from a very mild case of EC symptoms (nystagmus and light
swaying) as soon as she had some thyme and oregano (dried form - it
was the middle of winter at the time). She eats garlic stems and peels
voluntarily, too. Garlic is also anthelmintic. So are pumpkin seeds,
but I'm afraid they're too fatty for rabbits.

EC does affect kidney. Does your bunny drink a lot of water? That's
usually a sign of kidney problem. I know cinnamon is a kidney tonic
herb, but I don't know how effective/safe for rabbits. I used to have
a rabbit who liked to nibble on a cinnamon stick after I used it for
tea - she just liked the taste, imo.

FYI: Here's the Prozyme website (mutiple enzyme for pets). They're
still offering free sample. http://www.prozymeproducts.com/

Hope your bunny has a long and happy life with you.

T.

[cottontail]

Not at all :) I'm glad you've posted your views on the subject.

T.

[Ros]

I wouldn't keep him on it all the time, no. A 28 day course to zap
the little horrors then some time off. Maybe a couple of months and
since they seem to be still hanging on, repeat it again for another 28
days. It should never be a shorter course as it just helps them build
a resistance to the drug.

Don't use Alpalazone (I think that's the correct name) That has been
found to be very, very dangerous for rabbits. Only Fenbendazole.
Check that your Panacur only has Fenbendazole in it.

I'm in the UK so hard to say much about vets, but try Arlette's site
www.rabbitvet.net (Arlette from APR) and also
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_forum.php?id=9 but do treat with
caution. Somebody in the UK section has said some pretty dreadful
things about a certain rabbit expert in North Yorkshire who I can only
think is Frances Harcourt-Brown and she really, genuinely is an expert
- I've had her treat my Cinnamon and she was brilliant. She's
renowned worldwide. but it was only one member who must have had a
bad experience. Frances isn't the only vet in the practice so maybe
it was one of the others....

Also there's an HRS list

http://www.rabbit.org/vets/vets.html

and their FAQs about what to look for

http://www.rabbit.org/faq/sections/vet.html

Anyway hope you can find a more savvy vet. I'm sure the one you have
is trying hard but they do need training/experience to get it right.

Very best of luck with getting some improvements.

Ros

[Ros]

Cottontail, I've posted a link to this to my friend Katy who is
working on setting up a site on Headtilt/Wryneck and therefore EC.
(see another thread on this group)

I hope she'll read what you've said about the help your rabbit got
from oregano and thyme and include that as a useful treatment on her
site.

She said she was going to send a message to Konstantin as well - not
sure if she's managed to do that yet. Her job keeps getting in the
way of more interesting/important stuff.

Ros

On Aug 17, 1:15 am, cottontail <hop...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know if it's safe to keep him on Panacur continuously. hmm...
> I've read that rabbits have fast metabolism, so most medication exits
> their body pretty quickly. Maybe you can contact the HRS recommended

> vets listed here:http://www.ohare.org/vets.htm(perhaps you have

> already :)
>
> In addition to Panacur, I highly recommend growing fresh thyme for
> your rabbit. It has an anthelmintic (vermicide) property, which "kills
> a number of parasites including worms and protozoa found in the gut or
> elsewhere, including some found in the liver, spinal and cranial
> fluids." As a matter of fact, Sophie, one of our female buns, started
> to recover from a very mild case of EC symptoms (nystagmus and light
> swaying) as soon as she had some thyme and oregano (dried form - it
> was the middle of winter at the time). She eats garlic stems and peels
> voluntarily, too. Garlic is also anthelmintic. So are pumpkin seeds,
> but I'm afraid they're too fatty for rabbits.
>
> EC does affect kidney. Does your bunny drink a lot of water? That's
> usually a sign of kidney problem. I know cinnamon is a kidney tonic
> herb, but I don't know how effective/safe for rabbits. I used to have
> a rabbit who liked to nibble on a cinnamon stick after I used it for
> tea - she just liked the taste, imo.
>
> FYI: Here's the Prozyme website (mutiple enzyme for pets). They're

> still offering free sample.http://www.prozymeproducts.com/

[cottontail]

Hi Ros,
I'm planning to make a new web page regarding my medicinal herbal
experiences with our rabbits on my rabbit website. When I do
(hopefully soon), I'll post a link here, and also forward it to your
friend. BTW, I was wondering if you were RosL :) Great to have you
here.

T.

On Aug 17, 8:45 am, Ros <rosgroupsacco...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Cottontail, I've posted a link to this to my friend Katy who is
> working on setting up a site on Headtilt/Wryneck and therefore EC.
> (see another thread on this group)
>
> I hope she'll read what you've said about the help your rabbit got
> from oregano and thyme and include that as a useful treatment on her
> site.
>
> She said she was going to send a message to Konstantin as well - not
> sure if she's managed to do that yet. Her job keeps getting in the
> way of more interesting/important stuff.
>
> Ros
>
> On Aug 17, 1:15 am, cottontail <hop...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't know if it's safe to keep him on Panacur continuously. hmm...
> > I've read that rabbits have fast metabolism, so most medication exits
> > their body pretty quickly. Maybe you can contact the HRS recommended

> > vets listed here:http://www.ohare.org/vets.htm(perhapsyou have

[Ros]

That'll be great and I'll certainly pass on the link.

Yes I'm RosL too. I just somehow managed to join twice - very little
imagination with names though LOL!

Ros

[akonsu]

hello,

thanks to everyone who replied. he is getting better now. a big
problem appeared to be his teeth. he had spikes and ulcers in his
mouth. and since he is pretty old, his back teeth are getting lose. so
the vet did a little operation on him, and now he is eating better.
right after i posted my original question he stopped eating any food
at all, but now after they removed the spikes, he is slowly getting
back to his normal eating. although he eats little hay still. i do not
know whether his EC still affects him, but the teeth were a major
problem too...

konstantin

[Ros]

I'm glad you got the problem sorted, Knostantin, and that it was
something that didn't need any more profound treatment. However, as
you know, rabbits' teeth grow all the time and this will recur.
You'll need to get his teeth checked every couple of months to keep on
top of it and have new spurs removed. As rabbits age, the angle of
their teeth alters, they no longer meet and so don't wear down,
causing these sharp spurs to form.

My Cinnamon, though she's only 5, has had this problem since she was a
baby. She has a severe molar malocclusion where the teeth don't meet
at all and so don't wear down and the spurs grow. She has to have
dentals to trim them every 6 - 8 weeks. :¬(

Ros