A phonology
Alex Fink
realisation, I've come up with a phonology. Not done yet is the
assignment of phonemes to letters. It'd be nice if the "simplest"
ones came first, of course, and maybe /?/ /@/ should be <l> as I
speculated in the other thread.
So, vowels. 26 is really quite a lot of contrastive vowels. To cut
that number to size we can have some distinctive features other than
quality, say length and nasality: then there'll be 6 1/2 vowel
qualities? more like 7, where one of them isn't quite a first-class
citizen. This suggests to me a scheme like /i 1 u e @ o a/ where the
weak /@/ is a natural halfster.
Consonants. I don't think it'll be possible to get all the pairs
phonetically natural, but we can at least aim for systematic. It
makes sense for place of articulation to map to vowel quality, and for
the high vowels it'd be nice to use their corresponding glides
somewhere, so that palatal, velar, and labiovelar are in. We can
hardly be without labial and dental/alveolar, then perhaps a lateral
series 'cause they're cool, and glottal makes six and a half. Picking
some natural manners of articulation this gives us the following
system, matching Vs and Cs in corresponding positions (best viewed in
fixed pitch):
i 1 u e a o @
i: 1: u: e: a: o: @:
i~ 1~ u~ e~ a~ o~
i~: 1~: u~: e~: a~: o~:
c k k_w t tK p ?
C x x_w s K f h
J N N_w n n_l m
j M\ w r\ l v\
- The biggest blemish remaining here is the thing I wrote /n_l/ above
-- I don't actually know what can go there. Maybe /l~/ but I doubt my
ability to make that distinction well with vowel nasality also in
play. So maybe we kluge here by setting up an alveolar vs. dental
distinction in /n/s or something, or maybe laterals should be replaced
wholesale?
- If it turns out we can't tell velars from labiovelars near a rounded
vowel, maybe one of those series should be made uvular.
- /c C/ could just as well be the more common /tS S/ (or maybe this is
a free variation); likewise /r\/ could be /r/ (ditto).
Alex-l
Alex Fink
I've tried to put some of the crosslinguistically most common Vs and
Cs on the home row; and even with that the problem is massively
underconstrained so I've also tried to line the sounds up with the
normal values of the letters to a certain extent.
I'm trying out uvulars for the /1/ series and retroflexes for the /a/
series.
L /? @/ P /p o/ M /N_w u~/
K /k_w u/ O /f o:/ N /J i~/
J /c i/ I /j i~:/ B /l` a~:/
H /ts` a/ U /w u~:/ V /v\ o~:/
G /n e~/ Y /R\ 1~:/ C /q 1/
F /m o~/ T /s` a:/ X /X 1:/
D /t e/ R /r e~:/ Z /N\ 1~/
S /s e:/ E /C i:/
A /h @:/ W /x_w u:/
Q /n` a~/
Alex
Eeveelyn
I think this is a really nice start;; Making qww'xzx pronounceable is
quite the challenge; lll you have risen to it amicably. Once we have
words with -j and -k; do you think you can record a mock
conversation;;; I think this would make it easier to understand the
full extent of this syllable system;; It will also let us work out
making it more natural;; Pronunciation is something I know I struggle
with when it's written out;; It's so much easier to hear it;;;;
~Eeveelyn -l
Brett Williams
>
> L /? @/ P /p o/ M /N_w u~/
> K /k_w u/ O /f o:/ N /J i~/
> J /c i/ I /j i~:/ B /l` a~:/
> H /ts` a/ U /w u~:/ V /v\ o~:/
> G /n e~/ Y /R\ 1~:/ C /q 1/
> F /m o~/ T /s` a:/ X /X 1:/
> D /t e/ R /r e~:/ Z /N\ 1~/
> S /s e:/ E /C i:/
> A /h @:/ W /x_w u:/
> Q /n` a~/
Hi Alex! Sorry for not responding to your phonology ideas until now--
let's put it this way: Thanks for teaching me a bunch of IPA!
I love what you've come up with, to the extent I understand it. It
does seem like it goes together with the usual letter values quite a
bit, which is a welcome surprise! It's hard for me to really put
together in my mind what all of those sounds would be like together,
since I'm unfamiliar with half of them. Here's a couple of the many
questions I could ask:
I adore retroflex sounds ever since learning a tiny bit of Sanskrit;
so yay on those;; What on earth is ts` though? Like a ts sound but
retroflex? (I'm trying to do that right now and I'm pretty sure I'm
failing.)
I haven't really found any examples of k_w but I've been listening to
t_w and d_w so I think maybe I get the idea;; It seems pretty;; x_w is
still a bit of a headscratcher for me;;;
But anyway the main perspective I've been taking on it is
pedagogical;; so I've been mainly thinking about the first few letters
and what's being introduced when;;; ? is just a glottal stop, right?
So there won't be anything too difficult to teach on -l;; that's
great; one of my priorities is to keep -l simple;;; Then on -k and -j
each will have an interesting consonant to teach; that makes sense;;;
The vowels are short & unnasalized until on -g we'd introduce "e" for
the first time nasalized; then another nasal vowel; then an
unnasalized "e" which is the first time there'd be a nasal/not
distinction; then a long "e" which is the first time there'd be a
length distinction; and then a long version of the first vowel taught,
showing that all this doesn't just have to do with "e";;; :)
From an English speaker's perspective then; the home row starts off
easy with -l (chiLL); then interesting consonants and easy vowels;
then easy consonants and interesting vowels;; seems like a reasonable
progression;;;
I like the balance of sounds once we get to -a (which will be maybe an
important plateau level);;;
What else can you tell us other than the letter sounds about how to
speak qww'xzx? For instance how do we (or do we) pronounce the
apostrophe etc? Does it have a sound, or affect the word's sound, or
is it just written? And are there any other features to the sound of
words; like tone or stress?
I wouldn't worry about finalizing most of the phonology right away;;
all we need to get to work is L; then by March we'll need K;; ;
That's part of how I tried to structure qww'xzx so it doesn't exclude
people and create barriers-- many conlangs instantly lose all
nonphonologists as soon as someone comes up with a pretty slate of
sounds-- you'd have lost me; just now! :) If I felt like I had to
learn all of those sounds at once to know what's going on; I'd be
feeling lost;;; :) But with the sounds on levels; we just need to
learn everyone about glottal stops and schwas and we're good till
march;;;
So don't worry about finalizing the whole thing;; but do let us know
when you feel sure about just L; and we can start right away making
educational materials for qww'xzx-l;;;
BTW, it would make sense to me if we left sentence intonation as a
separate project for someone else to take up;; I think dividing up the
work by task can lead to us having lots of interesting things (like
sentence intonation, gesture, etc) that most conlangs are too busy
arguing over the most popular aspects of language (like phonology and
syntax) to ever get around to;;;
<3,
mungojelly-l
Alex Fink
there's no reason others couldn't do that as well; to help to round
off the corners;;
On Feb 5, 9:47 am, Brett Williams <mungoje...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Alex! Sorry for not responding to your phonology ideas until now--
> let's put it this way: Thanks for teaching me a bunch of IPA!
> I adore retroflex sounds ever since learning a tiny bit of Sanskrit;
> so yay on those;; What on earth is ts` though? Like a ts sound but
> retroflex? (I'm trying to do that right now and I'm pretty sure I'm
> failing.)
I've realised since preparing the second phonology post that the
retroflex series still showed signs of having been translated from the
laterals. So I put /ts`/ for its stop where /t`/ would've done just
as well (translating from /tK/), and likewise /l`/ for its liquid
instead of /r`/ or something. No matter, though, this way's probably
easier (for me at least) to distinguish, and it pleases me to keep
some kind of lateral around. Of course there could be variation here
as well.
> I haven't really found any examples of k_w but I've been listening to
> t_w and d_w so I think maybe I get the idea;; It seems pretty;; x_w is
> still a bit of a headscratcher for me;;;
there might be examples of these;; labialisation is most common on
velars in the wild so it shouldn't be that hard; maybe it's getting
them in isolation which is the trick;;;
Ladefoged's pages at
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/index/sounds.html
are often good for funny sounds;; In this case only Bura
http://www.phonetics.ucla.edu/appendix/languages/bura/bura.html
is around for labialisation;;;
> I like the balance of sounds once we get to -a (which will be maybe an
> important plateau level);;;
people aren't put off by /k_w/ and /c/ and /ts`/ as their second and
third and fourth consonants though; even if they come one at a time;;;
> What else can you tell us other than the letter sounds about how to
> speak qww'xzx? For instance how do we (or do we) pronounce the
> apostrophe etc? Does it have a sound, or affect the word's sound, or
> is it just written? And are there any other features to the sound of
> words; like tone or stress?
>
> separate project for someone else to take up;; I think dividing up the
> work by task can lead to us having lots of interesting things (like
> sentence intonation, gesture, etc) that most conlangs are too busy
> arguing over the most popular aspects of language (like phonology and
> syntax) to ever get around to;;;
Suggestions welcome; or maybe this can be part of sentence intonation
and I should remove my hands;;; I'd love me a neat prosodic
system;;; :)
> So don't worry about finalizing the whole thing;; but do let us know
> when you feel sure about just L; and we can start right away making
> educational materials for qww'xzx-l;;;
that the distinction between words that start with plain vowels and
words that start with glottal stop is a subtle one;;; How, if at all,
should we alleviate the chance for confusion?
Alex-l
Brett Williams
>
> lll; certainly I could record a mock conversation or four;; and
> there's no reason others couldn't do that as well; to help to round
> off the corners;;
I think we should adopt the modest goal of having some audio and/or
video demonstrating the basic words of qww'xzx-l; sometime this
month;; then in April we can add recordings of words in qww'xzx-k; ll
maybe little conversations already; if that makes sense;;;
> Well; it's pretty much the same deal;;; I'm trying to think where
> there might be examples of these;; labialisation is most common on
> velars in the wild so it shouldn't be that hard; maybe it's getting
> them in isolation which is the trick;;;
Interestingly; I've discovered that k_w is one of the phonemes in
another language I'm studying; Potawatomi!!;; ; at least according to
some phoneme charts I've seen;;; I can't recognize the phoneme well
enough to know if the Potawatomi speakers I'm listening to actually
say it;; ;; Here's an example; there's an audio recording here with
the word "Kwédajwen";; ; http://neaseno.org/blog/?p=1630 ;; is that
what you're looking for?;;; :)
> lll; that was one of the things I was hoping for;;; ll; I do hope
> people aren't put off by /k_w/ and /c/ and /ts`/ as their second and
> third and fourth consonants though; even if they come one at a time;;;
I don't think people will be put off of learning the language;; makes
it more interesting if anything;; but what people might be put off
from doing is being brave enough to record themselves speaking!;;;
lll we should create an atmosphere where there may be an ideal goal;
of what a proper finished pronunciation should be like; but there's
also an expectation that not everything produced in the language will
exactly match that ideal;;; and that other renditions have value as
well; particularly (but not only!) as bad examples;; lll;;;
ll'll; for instance; if you record an example of how something should
be pronounced; and then I can record my best attempt at it; and
hopefully get it wrong;; then you can respond correcting and showing
the difference between what I said and what you were looking for;; ;
That way we've taught more thoroughly what the sound should be; and
also modeled that it's safe and only produces more useful healthy
materials for qww'xzx if you try to pronounce it;; even and especially
if you get it wrong/nonstandard;;; ;;;
As long as we have materials for learners; and a welcoming atmosphere;
I think that the gentle speedbump of starting with some mouth
gymnastics would probably be healthy for how people enter the
language;; ;;; My guess is that one way that people will trip
themselves up learning qww'xzx is by rushing ahead instead of actually
getting comfortable with the first levels;; ;; so learning some sounds
will keep them busy & entertained;; ;; meanwhile they're also getting
used to the punctuation;; and otherwise gently being immersed;;; ;;
> There's perhaps one issue that makes glottal stops tricky; and that's
> that the distinction between words that start with plain vowels and
> words that start with glottal stop is a subtle one;;; How, if at all,
> should we alleviate the chance for confusion?
lll'lll;; I've been figuring that it means there's less
distinguishable words available on -l; which to my mind is a good
thing because we can use that architecture to keep -l as clean as
possible for future learners;;; I figure you can't really tell the
difference between "l" and "ll";; we don't say "l" anyway; so that
makes sense?;;; I think of "lll" as usually being pronounced /@?@/
(let me know whether I have this ascii ipa business right); and I've
been thinking of "llll" as usually VCCV; with a doubled length pause
in the middle;; /@?:@/ if that's how you write it;;; Then I've been
figuring there'll be some sort of distinction between the parts
connected by apostrophes; (for instance I thought of using tone; the
part before the apostrophe a higher tone and the part after a lower
tone; or whatever); so that you can tell (definitely testing the
limits of my x-sampa here; hmm how do you write tones;; lll;;)
"ll'lll" /@_H?@_L?@_L/ apart from "lll'll" /@_H?@_H?@_L/ and so
forth;;; That's more than enough different words for qww'xzx-l
IMO;;;;
<3,
mungojelly-l
Alex Fink
> I think we should adopt the modest goal of having some audio and/or
> video demonstrating the basic words of qww'xzx-l; sometime this
> month;; then in April we can add recordings of words in qww'xzx-k; ll
> maybe little conversations already; if that makes sense;;;
at pronouncing all the sounds of my phonology in a couple different
contexts; for illustration's sake;; Perhaps tonight;;; (Later
adddendum;; ;; spent a good fraction of the night on the test for the
LCC3 video stream casting;; There's still time though;;;)
Audio recording I can do; video maybe but it's not set up at the
moment;;;
> > Well; it's pretty much the same deal;;; I'm trying to think where
> > there might be examples of these;; labialisation is most common on
> > velars in the wild so it shouldn't be that hard; maybe it's getting
> > them in isolation which is the trick;;;
>
> Interestingly; I've discovered that k_w is one of the phonemes in
> another language I'm studying; Potawatomi!!;; ; at least according to
> some phoneme charts I've seen;;; I can't recognize the phoneme well
> enough to know if the Potawatomi speakers I'm listening to actually
> say it;; ;; Here's an example; there's an audio recording here with
> the word "Kwédajwen";; ;http://neaseno.org/blog/?p=1630;; is that
> what you're looking for?;;; :)
that's our sound;;;
> As long as we have materials for learners; and a welcoming atmosphere;
> I think that the gentle speedbump of starting with some mouth
> gymnastics would probably be healthy for how people enter the
> language;; ;;; My guess is that one way that people will trip
> themselves up learning qww'xzx is by rushing ahead instead of actually
> getting comfortable with the first levels;; ;; so learning some sounds
> will keep them busy & entertained;; ;; meanwhile they're also getting
> used to the punctuation;; and otherwise gently being immersed;;; ;;
entertained while the rest of the language is a piece of relative
cake;; ll; tasty relative cake!;;; ll; yes; I'd be glad to do
phonology recording comparisons in response to other people's
productions; assuming I can actually hear what's going on; to make the
comparisons;;;
> > There's perhaps one issue that makes glottal stops tricky; and that's
> > that the distinction between words that start with plain vowels and
> > words that start with glottal stop is a subtle one;;; How, if at all,
> > should we alleviate the chance for confusion?
>
> lll'lll;; I've been figuring that it means there's less
> distinguishable words available on -l; which to my mind is a good
> thing because we can use that architecture to keep -l as clean as
> possible for future learners;;; I figure you can't really tell the
> difference between "l" and "ll";; we don't say "l" anyway; so that
> makes sense?;;; I think of "lll" as usually being pronounced /@?@/
> (let me know whether I have this ascii ipa business right); and I've
> been thinking of "llll" as usually VCCV; with a doubled length pause
> in the middle;; /@?:@/ if that's how you write it;;;
I've been vacillating between that method; ;; /@?/ for "ll" and /@?@/
for "lll";; and a consonant-initial one; ;; /?@/ and /?@?/
respectively;;; Your suggestion is probably better for the
distinctness; if the words are mumbled;;; As for "llll"; I haven't
seen it used enough that I've thought about it yet;;;
> Then I've been
> figuring there'll be some sort of distinction between the parts
> connected by apostrophes; (for instance I thought of using tone; the
> part before the apostrophe a higher tone and the part after a lower
> tone; or whatever); so that you can tell (definitely testing the
> limits of my x-sampa here; hmm how do you write tones;; lll;;)
> "ll'lll" /@_H?@_L?@_L/ apart from "lll'll" /@_H?@_H?@_L/ and so
> forth;;; That's more than enough different words for qww'xzx-l
> IMO;;;;
right;;;
ll; I realise; one other thing that's touchy about my phonology is
putting vowels in hiatus; all the segments that I'm used to having to
break hiatus; ; [?] and glides and stuff; are bound to letters;;; I
don't know what; if anything; to do about this;; one can technically
have bare vowels in hiatus;; but the possibility for confusion would
be relatively high;;; Suggestions?;;
lll'll; as for prefixes and suffixes;; tone would work; and would give
qww'xzx something a bit like a pitch accent;; We could also do it
like a stress accent;; ; stress the first / last syllable in each
apostrophe-delimited part;; except stress accent not necessarily
lining up with distinctive length is kinda tricky too;;; Let's go
with the tone for now;;;;
Also; I've been reading myself some random syllables in qww'xzx to
test out the phonology; and have found myself doing other subtle
things as well to sharpen the distinctions;; like giving long vowels a
slight internal contour tone (rising or falling; either helps); and
making them tenser than the short vowels;; but these are just musings
for now;;;
Alex-l
Alex Fink
> lll;;; I've also sorta been meaning to record a sample of my attempts
> at pronouncing all the sounds of my phonology in a couple different
> contexts; for illustration's sake;; Perhaps tonight;;;
this group;; (is there a better place to put them?;;;) Included
are;; ;;
Cs.wav; ; all the consonants as onset and coda of a syllable; read in
the order of my original post; but with the values of the second
Vs.wav; ; all the vowels alone; ditto
syllabary.wav; ; each sound read with its C value and its V value in
succession
Alex-l
Eeveelyn
was a big help;;;; I think I understand the annotations now;;; This
reference will be very useful once we get a few levels in and can form
complete sentences; conversations; etc;; So exciting;;;;
Eeveelyn -l
Brett Williams
>
> And; some recordings are up;;
Yay!!;;;
> phonology.tgz in the files section of this group;;
> (is there a better place to put them?;;;)
lll; we get some file storage with our group; so; ll; might as well
use it;; ;; they say we get 100 MB; so I say let's make that a goal!;;
;; a hundred meg of files about qww'xzx would surely be a useful
treasure trove; a vault of history;;; we can mirror it to somewhere
else as seems appropriate; ll;;;
> Cs.wav; ; all the consonants as onset and coda of a syllable; read in
> the order of my original post; but with the values of the second
?!? ll; sorry; but read in what order now?!;;; (lll; I've hardly
been worrying father than K; really, anyway!;;; I can tell which one
is /k_w/;;;) OK wait the order of your original post;;; ;;; maybe I
can figure this out; ll;;;
L /? @/ P /p o/ M /N_w u~/
K /k_w u/ O /f o:/ N /J i~/
J /c i/ I /j i~:/ B /l` a~:/
H /ts` a/ U /w u~:/ V /v\ o~:/
G /n e~/ Y /R\ 1~:/ C /q 1/
F /m o~/ T /s` a:/ X /X 1:/
D /t e/ R /r e~:/ Z /N\ 1~/
S /s e:/ E /C i:/
A /h @:/ W /x_w u:/
Q /n` a~/
(plus)
i 1 u e a o @
i: 1: u: e: a: o: @:
i~ 1~ u~ e~ a~ o~
i~: 1~: u~: e~: a~: o~:
c k k_w t tK p ?
C x x_w s K f h
J N N_w n n_l m
j M\ w r\ l v\
(equals)
c q k_w t ts` p ?
C X x_w s s` f h
J N\ N_w n n` m
j R\ w r l` v\
How'd I do?!;;;
> Vs.wav; ; all the vowels alone; ditto
> syllabary.wav; ; each sound read with its C value and its V value in
> succession
Sounds good to me!;;; lll; it is a good thing qww'xzx goes one letter
at a time!;; ;; I don't feel intimidated by working with ? @ k_w and
u for a while now;; and then taking a while to digest c later;; So it
seems to me like it will be easy enough too for someone climbing the
latter after it's been built;;; llll'lll;;;
<3,
mungojelly -l
Alex Fink
> lll; we get some file storage with our group; so; ll; might as well
> use it;; ;; they say we get 100 MB; so I say let's make that a goal!;;
> ;; a hundred meg of files about qww'xzx would surely be a useful
> treasure trove; a vault of history;;; we can mirror it to somewhere
> else as seems appropriate; ll;;;
lll;; 100 MB could be anywhere from not very much; if we fill the
space with recordings and other large files;; to a very ambitious
goal; if it'll be mostly text after things settle down; ll;;;
That's exactly it; ll;;;
lll; I wonder whether there's any way to attach a comment to a file;;
it would be good to annotate the recordings with that;;
Alex-l
Brett Williams
>
> It appears so;; I can't reliably tell a /k_w/ from a /kw/; but I think
> that's our sound;;;
Wow; what are the odds?; who knew I'd suddenly be learning two
different languages with /k_w/;;; Fortune smiles upon me;;;;
> ll; I realise; one other thing that's touchy about my phonology is
> putting vowels in hiatus; all the segments that I'm used to having to
> break hiatus; ; [?] and glides and stuff; are bound to letters;;; I
> don't know what; if anything; to do about this;; one can technically
> have bare vowels in hiatus;; but the possibility for confusion would
> be relatively high;;; Suggestions?;;
ll; pardon my ignorance;; lll but "hiatus"; I take it this means when
you say two vowels; one after the other?;;;
lll;; so the ambiguity between "kj" pronounced as two vowels; and
"klj" with a /?/ inbetween?;; I feel like it's reasonable to
distinguish between; ; I'll use here a convention I've been thinking
of to myself; lower-case letters for letters rendered as vowels and
upper-case for letters rendered as consonants; ; "kj" hardly any
pause; "kLj" a longish pause; & "kLLj" a very long pause;;; Is it?;;
; Reasonable to distinguish all three of those?;; at least in
theory?;; We haven't chosen many of the words yet; so we can be alert
to ambiguous similarities as they arise;; ;; ll'll; who knows; ; ;
maybe punning similarity might entertain us as much as perfect
distinction??;;;
> lll'll; as for prefixes and suffixes;; tone would work; and would give
> qww'xzx something a bit like a pitch accent;; We could also do it
> like a stress accent;; ; stress the first / last syllable in each
> apostrophe-delimited part;; except stress accent not necessarily
> lining up with distinctive length is kinda tricky too;;; Let's go
> with the tone for now;;;;
lll;; have you thought any more about this?;; My idea of high tone
for the first syllable and low tone for the second was just random!;;
;; Of course random's fine; so do we actually want to go with that?;;
Or perhaps you could think of something better?;; I've never
actually spoken a language with tone; so I've no clue really!;;; :)
;;;
> Also; I've been reading myself some random syllables in qww'xzx to
> test out the phonology; and have found myself doing other subtle
> things as well to sharpen the distinctions;; like giving long vowels a
> slight internal contour tone (rising or falling; either helps); and
> making them tenser than the short vowels;; but these are just musings
> for now;;;
lll'll;; It's amazing the state to which linguistics has advanced as a
science; and yet it still feels to me like there's more territory
uncharted than explored;; ;;; So i think we should make as many
recordings as we can; so we can fill the corners of our minds with
subtle possibilities science will soon discover!;;; ;;
ll'l;; Would you like to try making the first recordings of some
qww'xzx words; like ll & lll & ll'll; or should I try it??
<3,
mungojelly-k
Alex Fink
>
> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 1:40 AM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ll; I realise; one other thing that's touchy about my phonology is
>> putting vowels in hiatus; all the segments that I'm used to having to
>> break hiatus; ; [?] and glides and stuff; are bound to letters;;; I
>> don't know what; if anything; to do about this;; one can technically
>> have bare vowels in hiatus;; but the possibility for confusion would
>> be relatively high;;; Suggestions?;;
>
> ll; pardon my ignorance;; lll but "hiatus"; I take it this means when
> you say two vowels; one after the other?;;;
ll; that's it precisely kk;;;
> lll;; so the ambiguity between "kj" pronounced as two vowels; and
> "klj" with a /?/ inbetween?;; I feel like it's reasonable to
> distinguish between; ; I'll use here a convention I've been thinking
> of to myself; lower-case letters for letters rendered as vowels and
> upper-case for letters rendered as consonants; ; "kj" hardly any
> pause; "kLj" a longish pause; & "kLLj" a very long pause;;; Is it?;;
> ; Reasonable to distinguish all three of those?;; at least in
> theory?;;
That's good; to have a way to indicate the distinction between
consonant and vowel pronunciations; and case is a natural thing to use
for it;;;
ll; in theory; I think this would be a reasonable distiction;; lll;
the other thing that "kj" might get confused with; ; if it's X-SAMPA
[ui]; is [uwi] "kUj"; with a semivowel inserted in there;; and the
three-way distinction between [ui] and [u?i] and [uwi] starts to
stretch the bounds of reasonability;;; lll'll; but as you note;; ;;
> We haven't chosen many of the words yet; so we can be alert
> to ambiguous similarities as they arise;; ;; ll'll; who knows; ; ;
> maybe punning similarity might entertain us as much as perfect
> distinction??;;;
So they might kl'lk;; alternatively; we could make some rules on
where the consonant and vowel pronunciations of letters are allowed to
occur; so the really tight cases don't happen;; or; of course; change
my phonology;;;
>> lll'll; as for prefixes and suffixes;; tone would work; and would give
>> qww'xzx something a bit like a pitch accent;; We could also do it
>> like a stress accent;; ; stress the first / last syllable in each
>> apostrophe-delimited part;; except stress accent not necessarily
>> lining up with distinctive length is kinda tricky too;;; Let's go
>> with the tone for now;;;;
>
> lll;; have you thought any more about this?;; My idea of high tone
> for the first syllable and low tone for the second was just random!;;
> ;; Of course random's fine; so do we actually want to go with that?;;
> Or perhaps you could think of something better?;; I've never
> actually spoken a language with tone; so I've no clue really!;;; :)
> ;;;
High for the first; and low for the second; is in accord with an
intuition I have (I don't know that I've seen this stated) that
falling tones tend to be more common that rising ones;; ll; so yes; I
still like it;; if this was a random suggestion; then I think your
luck was good kk;;;
> ll'l;; Would you like to try making the first recordings of some
> qww'xzx words; like ll & lll & ll'll; or should I try it??
No reason you shouldn't; ; ; I'll go ahead and make one; now; with
the vowellings
"lL lLl lL'Ll";; and throw it up in the files section;;;
Alex-k