L words as generic grammatical item
Alex Fink
ll'll; I've warmed to Eeveelyn's idea that one of the L words might be
a generic conjunction; in the style of "I ate a banana, and...";;;
This sort of multifunctionality didn't occur to me at first; but it
could work quite nicely; lll;;; They do overlap well;; ;; "and" "or"
etc. with their implication that there's more to come, "hmm..." with
its function 'there's more to come, just gimme a sec to figure out
what it is';;; And with multiple L words there's room for the
personality of each to be useful here;;;
I wonder what we might make of the idea of a generic preposition;;
Maybe it could be used for an argument in a clause whose role we're
not specifying;;
"I ate a bagel; [L-word] the shop at the corner"
'I ate a bagel; and um... the shop at the corner was involved' (from
the shop? at it? something else?)
Alex-l
Brett Williams
>
> I wonder what we might make of the idea of a generic preposition;;
> Maybe it could be used for an argument in a clause whose role we're
> not specifying;;
> "I ate a bagel; [L-word] the shop at the corner"
> 'I ate a bagel; and um... the shop at the corner was involved' (from
> the shop? at it? something else?)
This feels very natural to me; because there's a preposition exactly
like this in Lojban; "do'e";; it just says that something is related
to a situation; and not what role it plays;;; "mi citka lo nanbrbeigla
do'e le zarci be vi le kojna" is a very close translation of that
vagueness;;;
When I was writing about the punctuation; I thought of a possibility
for how we could understand the L-words overall;; ;; My basic idea
about the semicolons is that more semicolons means a longer pause; so
it shows that you've finished a longer piece of your thought;; So for
the L-words my idea is; strike that; reverse it;; ; A longer L-word
means that you're *adding* in a longer piece; a longer thought;;;
Two semicolons ";;" means that you're ending a phrase; or ending a
sentence that connects directly with the next one;; so two Ls "ll"
could mean that you're going to add a phrase; or a sentence that
continues directly with the last one;;;
Three semicolons ";;;" means that you're ending a whole thought;;
usually or always at the end of a sentence;; ; so three Ls "lll" could
mean that you're going to add a whole sentence; or separated but
connected thought;;;
Four semicolons ";;;;" means that you're definitively ending a whole
topic; coming to a resolution of something;; so four Ls "llll" could
mean that you're about to introduce a whole topic; ;; a definitive
beginning;;;;
Of course it's not as simple as; one is one way and one is the
other;;; They're both sort of both ways;;; Semicolons end one
phrase; but also make room for the next one;; ; when there is a next
one;; ;; L-words introduce a phrase; which also ends the previous
phrase when there was one;; ; and they can also introduce a phrase
that isn't there;; like "I went to the store, the bank, ll ..... where
I bought something, deposited some money, ll .....";; you can
introduce a phrase with an L-word and then not put any such phrase;
lll;;;
llll;; I guess my half-formed vision then is that L-words and
semicolon pauses are siblings; and each somehow an inverted version of
the other;; ll different and yet the same;;; lll;;; lll;;; llll;;;;
<3,
mungojelly-l
Alex Fink
>
> On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:44 AM, Alex Fink <000...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I wonder what we might make of the idea of a generic preposition;;
>> Maybe it could be used for an argument in a clause whose role we're
>> not specifying;;
>> "I ate a bagel; [L-word] the shop at the corner"
>> 'I ate a bagel; and um... the shop at the corner was involved' (from
>> the shop? at it? something else?)
>
> This feels very natural to me; because there's a preposition exactly
> like this in Lojban; "do'e";; it just says that something is related
> to a situation; and not what role it plays;;; "mi citka lo nanbrbeigla
> do'e le zarci be vi le kojna" is a very close translation of that
> vagueness;;;
Heh!;; is there anything Lojban doesn't have;;; I had an imprecise
Esperanto analogue in mind; "je"; if I'm not mistaken;; but I think
that's meant more to be a preposition to be used if you can't find a
better one;;;
> When I was writing about the punctuation; I thought of a possibility
> for how we could understand the L-words overall;; ;; My basic idea
> about the semicolons is that more semicolons means a longer pause; so
> it shows that you've finished a longer piece of your thought;; So for
> the L-words my idea is; strike that; reverse it;; ; A longer L-word
> means that you're *adding* in a longer piece; a longer thought;;;
lll;; that's relatively divergent from the way I've been using the
L-words so far;; ;;
Roughly; I've been using "ll" to introduce new pieces of thought;
especially ones that deviate in a new direction; and "lll" as more of
a mumble of agreement;; For introducing especially substantial pieces
of thought I've been using "ll'll"; just doubling the base to
intensify the value;; in tune with the way I've been using other
combinations like "lll'll";;; And I forget what I was doing with
"llll"!;;;
But the analogy you propose between Ls and ";"s is quite a pretty one;
ll;; I might be inspired to flip my usage around to match it;; so
that; ;;
"ll" means you're just mumbling in agreement; and certainly not
changing the topic drastically;;
"lll" means you're segueing to a separate but related thought; as you propose;;
and then your proposal's "llll" would fit in naturally;;;
And; under this system; it'd also make sense to make "ll'll" be the
flip of ";; ;;"; for example; once we figure out what that means;;
ll;;;
> Of course it's not as simple as; one is one way and one is the
> other;;; They're both sort of both ways;;; Semicolons end one
> phrase; but also make room for the next one;; ; when there is a next
> one;; ;; L-words introduce a phrase; which also ends the previous
> phrase when there was one;; ; and they can also introduce a phrase
> that isn't there;; like "I went to the store, the bank, ll ..... where
> I bought something, deposited some money, ll .....";; you can
> introduce a phrase with an L-word and then not put any such phrase;
> lll;;;
ll;; I think the L words' duality; between acknowledgement of what's
just been said; and paving the way for something new; matches nicely
the semicolons' one in this sense;;
Alex-l
Brett Williams
>
> Heh!;; is there anything Lojban doesn't have;;;
Nope!;; ;; In fact if you do think of anything; ll you could stop by
#lojban on Freenode; lll watch it appear before your eyes (as
something we call an "experimental cmavo");;; It's fun; but it can be
hard to keep up with sometimes;; :) ;; lll hopefully in qww'xzx some
such inventiveness can be encouraged at higher levels without being
such a distraction to people who are just starting to learn;; lll;;;;
> lll;; that's relatively divergent from the way I've been using the
> L-words so far;; ;;
ll'll;; I've been aware of various trends & feelings in the words; ll
I've been still throwing in things & stirring the pot;; lll I hope you
don't mind;;; There's only a tiny number of distinct short L-words;
ll we've begun to give them some of the vague indifference of 'uh-huh'
I feel like; ll I'm enjoying to emphasize that blandness;; ; lll &
from there ll to let them take subtle flavors;; ;; I feel sure with
such a small number; they can settle naturally into useful forms; lll
I imagine them as soft; compliant shapes;; ll a river rock; smooth to
the touch;;; I imagine it might be interesting; once they're more fit
into place; to come back and look at the shifting; unsettled forms
they have now;;;
lll'lll; there's more K-words; ll when we begin qww'xzx-k (ll just
over a week!) lll we could perhaps choose more detailed
seed-meanings;; ;;; It's just with qww'xzx-l that I feel compelled to
have such vagueness;; One motive is I guess I feel like I want it to
be (nearly?) impossible for a newcomer to use an L-word wrong!;;; For
instance; in my thinking you can't /exactly/ use an L-word as a noun;
ll but I imagine you could say: "and then I ate the lll;;;"; lll what
you're saying isn't really "and then I ate the doohickey/thingamabob";
it's really deep down more like "and then I ate the ... (not saying
anything; you can fill in the blank here)";; ;; but that allows a
newbie to use L-words as if they meant anything;; ;;; IOW there might
be great secret depths to the L-words; but someone off the street
should still be able to pick them up and just bang them around at
lll;;;
> Roughly; I've been using "ll" to introduce new pieces of thought;
> especially ones that deviate in a new direction; and "lll" as more of
> a mumble of agreement;;
lll'lll;; I've been thinking of /all/ of the L-words as mumbles of
agreement;; lll it goes together with being both hesitations &
conjunctions; in my mind;; lll it's like you're mumbling agreement
with yourself!;; "I went to the park; lll ate an apple ll;;;" is like
"I went to the park, ayup, uh-huh, n'ate an apple, sure did.";;; ;;
> For introducing especially substantial pieces
> of thought I've been using "ll'll"; just doubling the base to
> intensify the value;;
[snip]
> And; under this system; it'd also make sense to make "ll'll" be the
> flip of ";; ;;"; for example; once we figure out what that means;;
> ll;;;
ll'll;; I got this feeling from some of the times you've used
"ll'll"; starting a paragraph in response to something someone else
said; for instance; that it's like ll "and about that; here's a
thought I have";;;; ll; which fits easily in my mind with your idea
of ";; ;;" as being like a dash or colon;; ;; connecting; opening up
to; something else;;; I've also allowed myself to be influenced in my
use of ";; ;;" by the impulses I often have to overuse colons in
English!;;; For instance I often feel like writing: "I have an idea:
That we should do this: Tell everyone: Use more colons: They're good
for you!";; lll; in English I resist taking that too far; but qww'xzx
is our playground;;;; :)
> ll;; I think the L words' duality; between acknowledgement of what's
> just been said; and paving the way for something new; matches nicely
> the semicolons' one in this sense;;
ll'll;; It's an interesting consensus that we're building;;;
Carefully folded vaguenesses;;; ;; I really wonder what it will be
like to explain it to someone who's new to it;;; ; lll I'm looking
forward to seeing how we expand into the spaciousness of the
K-words!;;;
llll;;;;
<3,
mungojelly-l