Quest will be here Tuesday
Hank Perkins
from Eric.
I have not done anything about Temp Control or Data Logging. I have
looked for the Fuji PID with no success.
I will be flying analog only Tuesday night.
Hank
Arpi
Hope you have fun with your new toy :)
The Fuji route can get challenging and it is not for everybody. The
omega HH506 (now supported) or HH806 route is straight forward (all
you have to do is to plug the Eric thermocouples without doing
anything else). You could start with an Omega meter and then later, if
you have enough energy, add a PID/SSR combo (can be a cheap one and it
doesn't have to be Fuji).
A pid in drum roaster is not practical to do ramp-soak profiles (fancy
idea but not practical). So a fancy/expensive pid may not be a good
idea. It is best to use a switch to cut on/off the power that comes
out of the SSR. The pid is used to set a temperature or to prevent
going beyond max ET but not to "draw" a profile (the pid will also
extend the life of the heaters).
Cheers
Marcio Carneiro
>
> A pid in drum roaster is not practical to do ramp-soak profiles (fancy
> idea but not practical). So a fancy/expensive pid may not be a good
> idea. It is best to use a switch to cut on/off the power that comes
> out of the SSR. The pid is used to set a temperature or to prevent
> going beyond max ET but not to "draw" a profile (the pid will also
> extend the life of the heaters).
Hi, Rafael!
Why do the PID extend the life of the heater? Right after you load the
batch, if your SV is around 280ºC, does it keep the heater on at max
power until the P get smaller (ET reaching the SV)?
I don't plan PID soon, but as I'll try the TC4 shield with an Arduino,
I even thought about manual control using PWM and an SSR (I have one
from my old Gaggia Classic that I used to run on PID control).
Thanks,
Márcio.
Hank Perkins
What are the differences and benefits of the HH506 vs the HH806 for this application? Is it just AC power?
Thanks,
Hank Perkins
Perkins Technical Services, Inc.
Work 256-539-6787
Cell 256-426-0543
zb
The pid extends the life of the heaters because it runs them colder. Very high temperatures can shorten the life of the heaters. Let me try to explain.
The pid works different than manual mode. it sends always pulses at max power, but the pulses are brief. Instead of controlling the power by reducing the power, it uses pulses.
When you use manual mode and set the roaster to max power, the heater will get as hot as it can get (orange to yellow color) and the you react making adjustments. But with a PID, the heater will always stay around the set point (overshooting little) because it anticipates your destination. In my pid roaster, when I reached my set point (max ET), the color of the heaters stay grey with very little orange (cold). Meanwhile if I were to use manual mode, the color of the heaters sometimes will reach yellow (hotter). The pid anticipates the rise of the temperature to make a smooth landing at the set point and runs it as cold as it can be. Meanwhile in manual mode there is not limit and the heater could get as hot as possible (like no thermostat).
Cheers
--- On Fri, 12/3/10, Marcio Carneiro <marcio....@gmail.com> wrote:
Marcio Carneiro
it's better specially when you want to stay below the max power. I
imagine it's more power efficient as with constante power, even at
50%, the heat element wast a lot of energy. And it could avoid
overheating directly the area of the drum is passing so close to the
elements too.
Márcio.
zb
I forgot to add two more benefits of using a pid.
1
With a pid the roasts are very consistent and they can be reproduced with even more precision (increases consistency).
2
With a pid, the way the fan works also changes. Pid adjusts automatically the temperature when the setting of the fan is changed. In manual mode (without pid), if you increase the fan, the temperature drops because more cold air comes in. To keep the same temperature you wold have to also increase the power at the same time. With pid you don't have to worry. That means that if you increase the fan with a pid, in theory, there is more heat transferred to the beans, creating a faster ramp by using more hot air convection, but keeping the same drum temperature.
Cheers
--- On Fri, 12/3/10, Marcio Carneiro <marcio....@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Marcio Carneiro <marcio....@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [QuestM3] Re: Quest will be here Tuesday
> To: que...@googlegroups.com
Marcio Carneiro
I did 2 roasts this week trying to do that: keeping, manually, the
same MET. It's hard, but I've got similar results, and that is one
more argument to PID ;-)
It would be nice with the Arduino to replay the exact fan setting from
a previous roast and the MET temp with PID control.
Márcio.
Hank Perkins
What is the best cheapest place to get the Fiji PID? How much should I pay for it?
Thanks,
Hank
Sent from my iPhone
Hank Perkins
Yes I am bored at BWI airport waiting on a flight.
Thanks,
Hank Perkins
zb
To do a "full" digital control of a 110/240AC fan from a computer, you need both a triac and a microcontroller to drive the triac.
Cheers
--- On Fri, 12/3/10, Hank Perkins <hankp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Hank Perkins <hankp...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [QuestM3] Re: Quest will be here Tuesday
zb
Fuji PXR3
http://www.instrumart.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=4714&gclid=CPvNr5vO0aUCFU1-5Qod5RzDDg
With the following setup:
Size 3
input signal R
control output 1 C
control output 2 None
Power supply V
Additional Functions M (+45$)
Alarm outputs 4 None
it comes out as: $204. But you would need two :(
You have three options:
2 Fuji pids with com ports
1 Omega meter + 1 pid (without comm)
1 Arduino board
Cheers
--- On Fri, 12/3/10, Hank Perkins <hankp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Marcio Carneiro
> 1 Arduino board
With the TC4-shield that Bill and Jim have projected:
http://code.google.com/p/tc4-shield/
Márcio.
Hank Perkins
that I don't want the PXR3 because it is not as quick to adjust or as
accurate as the 4. Opinions????
> http://www.instrumart.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=4714&gclid=CPvNr5vO0...
> With the following setup:
>
> Size 3
> input signal R
> control output 1 C
> control output 2 None
> Power supply V
> Additional Functions M (+45$)
> Alarm outputs 4 None
>
> it comes out as: $204. But you would need two :(
>
> You have three options:
>
> 2 Fuji pids with com ports
> 1 Omega meter + 1 pid (without comm)
> 1 Arduino board
>
> Cheers
>
>
>
> > From: Hank Perkins <hankperk...@gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [QuestM3] Re: Quest will be here Tuesday
> > To: "que...@googlegroups.com" <que...@googlegroups.com>
> > Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 2:17 PM
> > Ok sounds like i am going yo
> > want the temp logger asap and the PID in about a
> > month. So....
>
> > What is the best cheapest place to get the Fiji PID?
> > How much should I pay for it?
>
> > Thanks,
> > Hank
>
> > Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> > > Hi Marcio
>
> > > I forgot to add two more benefits of using a pid.
>
> > > 1
>
> > > With a pid the roasts are very consistent and they can
> > be reproduced with even more precision (increases
> > consistency).
>
> > > 2
>
> > > With a pid, the way the fan works also changes. Pid
> > adjusts automatically the temperature when the setting of
> > the fan is changed. In manual mode (without pid), if you
> > increase the fan, the temperature drops because more cold
> > air comes in. To keep the same temperature you wold have to
> > also increase the power at the same time. With pid you don't
> > have to worry. That means that if you increase the fan with
> > a pid, in theory, there is more heat transferred to the
> > beans, creating a faster ramp by using more hot air
> > convection, but keeping the same drum temperature.
>
> > > Cheers
>
> > wrote:
> > >> From: Marcio Carneiro <marcio.carne...@gmail.com>
> > >> Subject: Re: [QuestM3] Re: Quest will be here
> > Tuesday
> > >> To: que...@googlegroups.com
> > >> Date: Friday, December 3, 2010, 12:17 PM
> > >> OK, now I got it. I knew how the PID
> > >> works but I wasn't seeing that
> > >> it's better specially when you want to stay below
> > the max
> > >> power. I
> > >> imagine it's more power efficient as with
> > constante power,
> > >> even at
> > >> 50%, the heat element wast a lot of energy. And it
> > could
> > >> avoid
> > >> overheating directly the area of the drum is
> > passing so
> > >> close to the
> > >> elements too.
>
> > >> Márcio.
>
zb
The PXR3 is very capable of driving the Quest electric drum roaster. I don't know about air roasters or gas roaster though. I did several roast (even using factory p-i-d settings without autotuning) using the PXR3 and they look identical to the PXG4 performance wise. The PXG4 has faster sampling but a drum roaster is very slow to make any noticeable difference (at least in an electrical drum roaster).
You may look at other things other than performance to make a decision. For example, the PXG4 has dual LCDs and you can monitor your set value and current value simultaneously. This helps in the case you don't roast with a computer attached. The computer attach serves the purpose of finding and searching best times (profile) but then it is all the same. The PXG4 has also more modes but in practice they are not used (for an electric drum roaster). So the only benefit I see is the dual LCD (with the PXR3 you have to press a button).
Let me give you a heads up. In the Artisan software, I am rewriting the code for the PXR3/PXG4 to make it better and more understandable. But just in case you don't know, Fuji PIDs use nonvolatile memory rated at 10,000 writes. They can be read all you want but they have a write life of 10,000. So it is not a good idea to be changing variables by means of the software (even though the software is capable). The good news is that in practice, there is no need to make variable changes. Just use a mechanical switch to turn on/off the output of the SSR.
My conclusion is that a PXG4 has better performance, has more features, and an extra LCD. This would make it better if price is not importance. The performance of the PXG4 may make a difference with air or gas powered roasters.
Cheers
--- On Sun, 12/5/10, Hank Perkins <hankp...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hank Perkins
therocouples with the fittings from Eric.
Still undecided and confused on the PID.
Best news of the day, The Quest M3 is out for delivery a day early.
WooHoo!! I should get to play tonight!!
Hank
Marcio Carneiro
I can give you news about the Arduino + TC4 soon, I hope. But I don't
know if I'll try the PID on it so soon!
Márcio.
Hank Perkins
Logical in operation. Cooling worked shockingly well. I did run from C1to C2 faster than I expected but I can see how to extend this time.
I was able to stop the roast very quickly. This was a very nice departure from my Behmor. I may try a load of the Jimma for kicks and giggles. I think I now know how to stretch the c1 to c2 to allow the flavors to develop.
Arpi
> Still undecided and confused on the PID.
There are two temperatures, ET and BT. The pid only controls ET and
then, this "indirectly" controls the target BT. The pid has no
feedback from BT because it is not its job. All PIDs do a good job
controlling only ET (as they were design to control only one thing).
PID -- ET-- BT
Using a PID to directly control the BT from a drum roaster would fail
as there is a huge time lag (measured in minutes). So, using a faster
PID would not help. A faster PID would only help if there was a
problem controlling ET. However, in air roasters, the time lag is
much smaller and the effects of ET on BT are more straight forward.
Hope that helped.
Cheers